So, let's say that you all are right, and my sister in law is a narcissist

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

In this circumstance, would you have told her kids the truth?  Or your own kids?  Would you have told FIL? 

The things she tells my DH are much bigger issues, and have safety implications, but they aren't clearcut lies.  I do refute those, but I don't involve the kids. 

At the very least, tell your kids and your dh the truth every single time.

Your kids need to know and internalize that their aunt is totally unsafe. I do not say that lightly. She has already proven it with some of the other things you have shared that she willingly, flippantly lies about.

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I thought you said he sees more of your kids than SIL's.

We live a few blocks away, and attend the same church.  So, my kids see him there and when they go over to mow his lawn, or to lend or borrow something.  Plus my GFIL comes here for eldercare most days, and either we're there or he's at our house picking up/dropping off, sometimes he stays for a while.  And sometimes he provides childcare for my kids when their dad is in the hospital. 

He would love to see more of the other grandchildren, although he sees them pretty much every weekend.  But my SIL has them in a ton of activities and doesn't want him over during the week because she says it disrupts homework etc . . .   My niece travels about every other weekend for sports.  My BIL travels with  her and when that happens, my FIL often goes up and spends the day to help SIL with the younger kids. 

My SIL is pretty clear that what she wants is for FIL to see my kids less.  That, for example, since FIL didn't go to my niece's piano recital (which he wasn't invited to because it was restricted to just parents due to covid), he shouldn't watch my kid's orchestra performance (which was online due to covid, and thus had no viewer restrictions).  

[Rosie_0801]

I wasn't dissing your FIL.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I wasn't dissing your FIL.

I know, I'm just a little defensive, and I can't go off on her.  I see this man going above and beyond to take care of everyone, and it makes me mad when she implies that he doesn't prioritize her kids, or love her kids, and even madder when she implies it to them.  

 

[Drama Llama]

To be clear, I'm not really asking how I respond in this case.  I'm comfortable with the response my kid gave, and my choice not to talk about it in the family (and vent here).

But there are other things going on where I do need to respond, and it is my business.  I'm not ready to talk about these here, and confidentiality is a concern.  So, I'm trying to figure that out, and I think having some sort of framework for understanding it might help me.  

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

But there are other things going on where I do need to respond, and it is my business.  I'm not ready to talk about these here, and confidentiality is a concern.  So, I'm trying to figure that out, and I think having some sort of framework for understanding it might help me.  

Trying to cultivate a feeling of boredom about SIL is less painful than the entirely natural and deserved anger. I can tell you that much from experience.

[maize]

I think what you can know for certain from her behavior is that she readily lies if she thinks the truth may reflect negatively on her even a little bit, and  she has no concern over how her lies may impact other people.

[Harriet Vane]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

I think what you can know for certain from her behavior is that she readily lies if she thinks the truth may reflect negatively on her even a little bit, and  she has no concern over how her lies may impact other people.

QFT

[Melissa Louise]

4 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Trying to cultivate a feeling of boredom about SIL is less painful than the entirely natural and deserved anger. I can tell you that much from experience.

This x 100. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

5 hours ago, elroisees said:

"That doesn't sound like grandpa. Anywho, how was the game?" 

"Huh. That doesn't fit the way I saw things. Anyway, let's leave that between them." 

"I wouldn't think that about (whoever). She's been very kind, in my experience." 

"That doesn't match what I know about him." (Full stop.) 

You don't have to say someone is a liar to infuse a little truthful doubt and put people, even kids, on guard. I've had to do that when someone became very mean or negative, and it helps protect the person who's being slandered.

I like these responses. Makes your point but doesn't entangle anyone in drama. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Fwiw, in your shoes I grey rock in person, correct lies and explain dysfunctional dynamics at home, and generally try not to get ruffled at all because that is their goal—to stir up drama.

Having been at this close to 25 years now, I will also say that true narcissism is rarely developed in a void, imo. I am in the camp that for some it may be a maladaptive response to trauma….and that narcissism tends to run between generations. In other words, the dysfunctional dynamic is often not just in the narcissist, but in all of the family that has been looped in to the dysfunction. Until I really stepped back and looked at the big picture of the narcissist, the flying monkeys, the scapegoat, the golden children, etc. I didn’t understand the crazy sh!t that happened in larger family get togethers. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I would say that it is not worth spending a bunch of time figuring out whether or not she is narcissist.  The narcissist boards can be helpful in formulating less emotional reactions to things that she does, whether she does them out of narcissism or not.  So can the 'passing the bean dip' strategies.  So can assertiveness training.  These are all good tools to have available in the moment so that it's easier to deal with irrational, dishonest, or mean behavior.  I think that you have tried all the 'normal' ways of dealing with her, and she just won't have them.  So it's good to widen your horizons and fill your quiver up with these other tools in case you need them.  

[Lecka]

I agree, something that seems totally innocuous may be one of those triggering things with back story.

 

But I think at this point, she is getting to you with this made-up story about your kids being favored.  If she didn’t get to you, would it get boring to her?  Maybe, maybe not.  But anything to take away fuel is good.  It shouldn’t be on your side, but since it is, taking away fuel is what you can do on your side.  
 

I think sometimes people get into dynamics and don’t really know how to change it on their own side, and then the other person responding differently can help change the dynamic.

 

I don’t actually feel that charitably about it, though.  
 

I also think it can be helpful to vent to someone who gets it and then be in a better space to mentally not react at the time.  
 

Sometimes it can help me to view things as attention-seeking behavior.  It helps if it helps me to detach and take it less personally.  It is a method for me.  I have also had advice to look at a spot on the wall to mentally disengage.  

 

If you decide to do strategies, it helps to remind yourself of them ahead of time.

 

But that is not a good strategy if really you need to be on your toes to react and respond.  

 

I don’t know if your kids are old enough for you to tell them sometimes you don’t pay attention to so-and-so when they are acting in a frustrating way.  I do that with my kids.  I have a BIL that I never want to have a direct confrontation with because I love my sister, but he throws out comments that I am not a fan of hearing.  But he is not someone I respect enough to want to respond, and my kids do know that.  My husband and I vent to each other, and we avoid seeing them at times that our interaction would be greater.  It’s too bad because there are things we don’t do.

 

My sister and I get together more with just each other and we have got philharmonic tickets together and usually go to eat together before the concerts.  Because I won’t do couple things with them, but want to see her.  It took a while but we came up with this and I think it works for both of us.

 

I think my BIL clearly has a problem with my husband and I as he says baiting comments to us.  But also I think he does it to everyone in general so it’s not particular personal.  It is unpleasant, though.  

[Lecka]

I agree with that, too.  It’s enough if she has some difficult behavior or you need to tone things down for your own self.  
 

But if it’s helpful I think that is good, too.  

Edited April 10, 2022 by Lecka

[KungFuPanda]

I think that what she TRULY wants is for her children to be blatantly favored and it upsets her that they're not.  It also upsets her that her father has a closer relationship with your kids than hers and she seems jealous of your relationship with her dad. However, she seems to want everyone BUT herself to put in the effort to "fix" this.  She's limited.  You can't fix her.  She clearly doesn't have the same feelings towards your kids that you have for hers.  

[gardenmom5]

 

21 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 

But Sunday was very cold and my SIL called him and said “I don’t want the baby there, can you keep him?” And so he didn’t go, instead he went to her house and watched the baby.  

My niece was upset and complained that he never comes to her games.  She asked her mother why he didn’t bring the baby to watch her play.  My SIL told her “Some people don’t care about women’s sports”.  

 And frankly I can’t think of a time when the gender of the kid played a role in a decision about what kid’s game to watch. I will acknowledge that he does watch more pro and college men’s sports than women’s.  

Does that seem narcissist?  I can’t really come up with another reason.  I realize she didn’t want to say “I asked him to” because she can’t stand to be the one who makes her kids upset, but why wouldn’t she say “I don’t know” or something.

 

I can come up with another reason. . . . . 

Has she done this to her daughter before?  is the other child male?  does she have a 'favorite' child?  (most narcissists do)

This has zilch to do with the grandfather.       She deliberately undermined her daughter, and the relationship between the grandfather and her daughter.

 

 

 

TBH - I would be watching her for signs she undermines girls and is against women.  I don't' care that she's a woman.  There are women who hate women, and undermine them all. the. time.
(when I was younger, I thought my grandmother was a misogynist because she undermined women/girls regularly.  Now, I think she was a misanthrope.)

 

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

I can come up with another reason. . . . . 

Has she done this to her daughter before?  is the other child male?  does she have a 'favorite' child?  (most narcissists do)

This has zilch to do with the grandfather.       She deliberately undermined her daughter, and the relationship between the grandfather and her daughter.

 

 

 

TBH - I would be watching her for signs she undermines girls and is against women.  I don't' care that she's a woman.  There are women who hate women, and undermine them all. the. time.
(when I was younger, I thought my grandmother was a misogynist because she undermined women/girls regularly.  Now, I think she was a misanthrope.)

 

The child she said the comment to is the favorite child.  I'm not sure who you mean by the other child?  She has 3 school aged girls, and a baby boy.  I don't think she "chose" the baby because he's a boy.  My guess is that she just wanted a break from the baby, but it's possible she was trying to get her daughter on her side by keeping Grandpa from coming.  It's also possible she actually thought it was too cold for him.  It wasn't that cold. 

She presents as though she loves all her kids but favors this kid.  So, I'm trying to understand why she'd undermine a kid that otherwise she seems to favor.   She also claims to love my husband, but from my perspective she definitely undermines him.  So, I'm hoping that maybe if I can figure out why she acts the way she does towards her own kids, I can figure out why she acts the way she does towards him.  And while I can try to ignore what goes on with her and her own kids, I can't really ignore that.  It's probably a long shot. I probably will never understand.  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think that what she TRULY wants is for her children to be blatantly favored and it upsets her that they're not.  It also upsets her that her father has a closer relationship with your kids than hers and she seems jealous of your relationship with her dad. However, she seems to want everyone BUT herself to put in the effort to "fix" this.  She's limited.  You can't fix her.  She clearly doesn't have the same feelings towards your kids that you have for hers.  

Yeah all of this is true.  I think she views the children as extensions of their mother and so the idea that my FIL thinks my kids are as precious as hers bothers her.  

But I don’t understand why she would want to drive a wedge between her kids and FIL.

[YaelAldrich]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Yeah all of this is true.  I think she views the children as extensions of their mother and so the idea that my FIL thinks my kids are as precious as hers bothers her.  

But I don’t understand why she would want to drive a wedge between her kids and FIL.

Because SHE needs to be the center of all the swirl. Always and forever - her and her minions. No one else can EVER take that place! So at the same time the narcissist wheedles into being favored there is also simultaneous devaluing of anyone who can (even without any malice or forethought) come between the narcissistic one and their supply. Gosh, I sound like one of those YT anti-Narcissist people! But it's true, true, true.

Edited April 11, 2022 by YaelAldrich

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Because SHE needs to be the center of all the swirl. Always and forever - her and her minions. No one else can EVER take that place! So at the same time the narcissist wheedles into being favored there is also simultaneous devaluing of anyone who can (even without any malice or forethought) come between the narcissistic one and their supply. Gosh I should like one of those YT anti-Narcissist people! But it's true, true, true.

But in that case, where was the supply coming from?  It seems like what she needs is her father’s attention or maybe her daughter’s?  How did her decision to tell him not to come, or her comment give her either of those things?

[YaelAldrich]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

But in that case, where was the supply coming from?  It seems like what she needs is her father’s attention or maybe her daughter’s?  How did her decision to tell him not to come, or her comment give her either of those things?

SIL is breaking up the love between GFIL and niece. It's called triangulation. It's a real scream I tell you. 🙄

Your SIL wants attention from GFIL to SIL and favored child also to SIL. But GFIL can't give love or attention to niece. 

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

SIL is breaking up the love between GFIL and niece. It's called triangulation. It's a real scream I tell you. 🙄

Your SIL wants attention from GFIL to SIL and favored child also to SIL. But GFIL can't give love or attention to niece. 

But at other times she acts like she is desperate for his attention to her children. 

[YaelAldrich]

Just now, Baseballandhockey said:

But at other times she acts like she is desperate for his attention to her children. 

Because it needs to be more than what YOU and YOUR CHILDREN get. 

 

(I'm not ignoring you. Off to bed!)

[Drama Llama]

Sleep tight @YaelAldrich

[Katy]

6 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

But at other times she acts like she is desperate for his attention to her children. 

She can both be desperate for attention from her dad, for her and her own children, AND simultaneously want her favorite child to prefer her to her dad, so she undermines their relationship.

It isn't about what's best for anyone except her feeling more powerful and less vulnerable. Nothing about it is logical.

[Katy]

I know she died young, but I'd be curious if your MIL had similar dynamics.  I keep reading that it appears NPD is a family dysfunction thing, but I know several people as children whose parents seemed normal and psychologically healthy, not abusive, but they developed NPD.  And many people with an NPD parent who were clearly damaged but who are definitely kind, compassionate people with a much better than average BS detector.  My DH is one of them. Very good at telling when someone is lying, picking genuine friends, and for that matter figuring out exactly why I don't like someone.  I just know something about them is off and I don't like them.  DH will pick out exactly what they said that was a huge red flag and warn me why.

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

I know she died young, but I'd be curious if your MIL had similar dynamics.  I keep reading that it appears NPD is a family dysfunction thing, but I know several people as children whose parents seemed normal and psychologically healthy, not abusive, but they developed NPD.  And many people with an NPD parent who were clearly damaged but who are definitely kind, compassionate people with a much better than average BS detector.  My DH is one of them. Very good at telling when someone is lying, picking genuine friends, and for that matter figuring out exactly why I don't like someone.  I just know something about them is off and I don't like them.  DH will pick out exactly what they said that was a huge red flag and warn me why.

I do think there might be some similarities.  I only knew her for a few years.  She died about 4 years after we married. 

MIL and FIL’s four kids are so different from each other.  And while DH is a mess he is a mess in an entirely different way from his sister. 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

The child she said the comment to is the favorite child.  I'm not sure who you mean by the other child?  She has 3 school aged girls, and a baby boy.  I don't think she "chose" the baby because he's a boy.  My guess is that she just wanted a break from the baby, but it's possible she was trying to get her daughter on her side by keeping Grandpa from coming.  It's also possible she actually thought it was too cold for him.  It wasn't that cold. 

She presents as though she loves all her kids but favors this kid.  So, I'm trying to understand why she'd undermine a kid that otherwise she seems to favor.   She also claims to love my husband, but from my perspective she definitely undermines him.  So, I'm hoping that maybe if I can figure out why she acts the way she does towards her own kids, I can figure out why she acts the way she does towards him.  And while I can try to ignore what goes on with her and her own kids, I can't really ignore that.  It's probably a long shot. I probably will never understand.  

She's undermining the relationship of her favorite child with grandpa.   She must be #1 in favorite child's life.

I watched my grandmother undermine my sister - so she could "rescue" her.  It was sick sick sick.  Like a "mild" version of munchausen by proxy. It kept my sister tethered to her.

btw: narcissists are not capable of loving anyone.  it's all about them, and only them.

Please - listen to some dr. ramani videos.  She focuses exclusively on narcissism's victims.  and the mind games narcissists play.

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

But in that case, where was the supply coming from?  It seems like what she needs is her father’s attention or maybe her daughter’s?  How did her decision to tell him not to come, or her comment give her either of those things?

The supply is the adoration of HER.  She wants her father's - but she's also making sure she gets her daughter's by undermining her dd's relationship with her father.  She's ALSO sending the message to her dd that "some people" (re: grandpa) think less of her because she's a girl.

She told her father to keep the baby at home - to keep him away.  to interfere with his relationship with sil's "favorite".

 

[Rosie_0801]

Inconsistency keeps other people off balance and that is supply.

[Drama Llama]

So, if this is narcissism, would it have always been there?  Or could it be triggered or exacerbated by PPD/PPA?  I didn’t know her that well till she moved out here, but everyone who knows her better says she’s always struggled while pregnant and after, and her anxiety definitely spiked during the pregnancy and after.

[Indigo Blue]

6 hours ago, Katy said:

I keep reading that it appears NPD is a family dysfunction thing, but I know several people as children whose parents seemed normal and psychologically healthy, not abusive, but they developed NPD.  And many people with an NPD parent who were clearly damaged but who are definitely kind, compassionate people with a much better than average BS detector.

You could meet a set of parents with NPD and think they were the nicest people you’d ever met. I’m not saying this is true of the people you know, just that this is SO very possible. To me, this is is very scary. And, to further complicate things, NPD people can be kind, compassionate people, too. It’s what’s underneath. The stuff you don’t see. It’s easy to be duped. That’s why some people who have lived through it have that extra sensitive BS detector. 
 

I also think that people are born with different levels of emotional intelligence just like with other characteristics. IMO it explains why some people (sometimes it’s the scapegoats) can see through it all and some don’t. I absolutely believe you can have have a family “nest” of NPD people or at least dysfunctional people, and also in that same family, people who grow up affected, but they are not NPD. It’s a complex mix of nature/nurture and the personality you were born with, IMO. 
 

Of course, these are just my opinions. But I do believe it’s possible that the seemingly nice parent who has NPD children COULD also be NPD. That’s because they are that good at masking, and it could be that no one can see it ( or maybe just one or two people who have known them their entire life). 
 

Many, many people think the NPD person I know is the nicest person they’ve ever met. But I used to lay awake many nights thinking of what I could do to keep my young children from being raised by them if something would have happened to Dh and me simultaneously. 

[Katy]

37 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

You could meet a set of parents with NPD and think they were the nicest people you’d ever met. I’m not saying this is true of the people you know, just that this is SO very possible. To me, this is is very scary. And, to further complicate things, NPD people can be kind, compassionate people, too. It’s what’s underneath. The stuff you don’t see. It’s easy to be duped. That’s why some people who have lived through it have that extra sensitive BS detector. 
 

I also think that people are born with different levels of emotional intelligence just like with other characteristics. IMO it explains why some people (sometimes it’s the scapegoats) can see through it all and some don’t. I absolutely believe you can have have a family “nest” of NPD people or at least dysfunctional people, and also in that same family, people who grow up affected, but they are not NPD. It’s a complex mix of nature/nurture and the personality you were born with, IMO. 
 

Of course, these are just my opinions. But I do believe it’s possible that the seemingly nice parent who has NPD children COULD also be NPD. That’s because they are that good at masking, and it could be that no one can see it ( or maybe just one or two people who have known them their entire life). 
 

Many, many people think the NPD person I know is the nicest person they’ve ever met. But I used to lay awake many nights thinking of what I could do to keep my young children from being raised by them if something would have happened to Dh and me simultaneously. 

It’s definitely possible, now that I think about it I never knew their dads well. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

You could meet a set of parents with NPD and think they were the nicest people you’d ever met.

Many, many people think the NPD person I know is the nicest person they’ve ever met.  

I have a relative that has an extensive group of "friends". . . . . people think she's super charming.  and she can be very sparkly . . (but heaven forbid anyone else have attention on them . . . . )

but at her daughter's bridal shower, she put her dd at one end of the large group (40+ people), and plopped herself down next to her, pulled out a wad of bills and insisted her daughter "guess" what was in each gift before she could open it. (while she did a running commetary the entire time.) if she guessed correctly, she'd give her one of the bills.  the entire time - she had the attention of the group focused on her.  at her dd's BRIDAL SHOWER.  you know, that event that is supposed to be about the bride . . .

She tried to do the exact same thing at another dd's twin baby shower . . . I was glad to see someone grabbed her and pulled her into another room to "talk" while her dd opened her gifts and enjoyed being center stage.  (without her mother making sure attention was on herself.)

those are just two examples.

narcissism is rooted in insecurity. it's almost a definition, even grandiose narcissists are insecure deep down.

Edited April 11, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Indigo Blue]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

narcissism is rooted in insecurity

Yes.

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Indigo Blue said:

You could meet a set of parents with NPD and think they were the nicest people you’d ever met. I’m not saying this is true of the people you know, just that this is SO very possible. To me, this is is very scary. And, to further complicate things, NPD people can be kind, compassionate people, too. It’s what’s underneath. The stuff you don’t see. It’s easy to be duped. That’s why some people who have lived through it have that extra sensitive BS detector. 
 

I also think that people are born with different levels of emotional intelligence just like with other characteristics. IMO it explains why some people (sometimes it’s the scapegoats) can see through it all and some don’t. I absolutely believe you can have have a family “nest” of NPD people or at least dysfunctional people, and also in that same family, people who grow up affected, but they are not NPD. It’s a complex mix of nature/nurture and the personality you were born with, IMO. 
 

Of course, these are just my opinions. But I do believe it’s possible that the seemingly nice parent who has NPD children COULD also be NPD. That’s because they are that good at masking, and it could be that no one can see it ( or maybe just one or two people who have known them their entire life). 
 

Many, many people think the NPD person I know is the nicest person they’ve ever met. But I used to lay awake many nights thinking of what I could do to keep my young children from being raised by them if something would have happened to Dh and me simultaneously. 

This sister is the one who was named guardian for my kids until DS2 joined us. Knowing how hard it is to parent a child through the loss of both parents, I shudder to think how that would have gone.

[Indigo Blue]

Thinking on whether a person is or isn’t narcissistic….or whether this thing or that thing they do is narcissistic…..

OP, my understanding of it all is that we all (as you know) have some degree of narcissism. If you can check off certain things in that person, they COULD have a disordered personality. Does the person lie? Manipulate others? Have no concept of boundaries? Have to be right? Do they ever apologize? Do they have the ability to see your feelings in an argument or do they only get defensive, blame their past, melt down, rage, or find things you yourself have done wrong and bring them up because they absolutely won’t be held accountable for what is happening in the present? Do they gaslight? Do they steal? Do they have an excessive need for attention? Do they have a chameleon personality?These concrete things, when seen together, can point to NPD and not just regular everyday narcissism. SIL could be on the severe end of every day narcissism, or she could be (armchair diagnosed) NPD. But these things would be present, but maybe hard to spot unless you were around enough. 
 

So if someone seems narcissistic, are they actually doing things that indicate that besides just being self-absorbed? Note: just being self absorbed and not NPD can still be hard to deal with, nonetheless. 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Indigo Blue
Thought of a few more things.

[Lecka]

So something that was kind-of a revelation to me….  Some people do not act consistently.  They do whatever in the moment, and it’s random, or it’s whatever is easiest in the moment, or whatever is impulsive in the moment.  
 

But it’s not like you can figure out very much about them, because the thing to figure out can be, to some extent, that the person is inconsistent and patterns do not make a lot of sense over time.

 

That might be possible with some of this “how does it make sense” stuff.  Maybe it will make sense with some explanation (that can be figured out), but maybe it won’t.  
 

Sometimes the answer is — there will be some kind of drama and some kind of decision-making that doesn’t make sense.  But who knows what it will be, specifically, it’s just not consistent.  
 

Or it’s consistent that there will be lashing out of some kind, but who will be in the doghouse may not make a lot of sense or be pretty random.  
 

Or maybe people are being played off each other and triangulated, in a “I saw my chance and I went for it” kind of way. 

[Katy]

10 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So, if this is narcissism, would it have always been there?  Or could it be triggered or exacerbated by PPD/PPA?  I didn’t know her that well till she moved out here, but everyone who knows her better says she’s always struggled while pregnant and after, and her anxiety definitely spiked during the pregnancy and after.

My FIL said that MIL "went crazy" when she got diagnosed with cancer months after her own abusive mother died.  And an aunt with a similar dynamic, though I suspect the diagnosis would be different, also "went off the deep end" when a health crisis and a death in the family happened.  Both weren't kind people prior, but there was definitely stressors that made the behaviors much worse and obvious to strangers instead of some shameful thing that only happened in private.  There were definitely problems beforehand, they just weren't obvious.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Katy
Stupid autocorrect

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

My FIL said that MIL "went crazy" when she got diagnosed with cancer months after her own abusive mother died.  And an aunt with a similar dynamic, though I suspect the diagnosis would be different, also "went off the deep end" when a health crisis and a death in the family happened.  Both weren't kind people prior, but there was definitely stressors that made the behaviors much worse and obvious to strangers instead of some shameful thing that only happened in private.  There were definitely problems beforehand, they just weren't obvious.

That sounds like her.  I mean, she's always been self centered.  But it seems like there has been a shift, whether it was triggered by my son's illness and death, or by the pandemic, or the pandemic, the stress of parenting four kids.

Did either of them swim back to the shallow end, so to speak?  

I guess one thing I'm not clear about is whether responding as if it's PPD/PPA and the stress of move and a new baby and having lots of kids, by which I mean offering her lots of help and opportunities to get a break and catch up on sleep, will help her heal and go back to her baseline which wasn't great but was better than this, or if it will just kind of feed the addiction to supply.  

The other thing I don't really understand is how much she's aware of this.  Like, is she consciously thinking "I want my kid to love me best, so I'm going to set this up so she thinks that her Grandfather rejected her for sexist reasons", or is she thinking "Nobody loves me and my kids, it's so sexist!  I better warn my kids about this so they can protect their hearts."  Or something in between.  Is this conscious or subconscious?

[Lecka]

I would guess subconscious.

You are free to try to help her out, but to some extent you would really be putting yourself in the line of fire.  There might be better places to focus your energy.  

[YaelAldrich]

5 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

The other thing I don't really understand is how much she's aware of this.  Like, is she consciously thinking "I want my kid to love me best, so I'm going to set this up so she thinks that her Grandfather rejected her for sexist reasons", or is she thinking "Nobody loves me and my kids, it's so sexist!  I better warn my kids about this so they can protect their hearts."  Or something in between.  Is this conscious or subconscious?

Personally, I think it's a little of both. In the narcissist I have to deal with you can see the gleam in her eye and the wheels a-turning when she is needing to be the center of things. I'm not sure she is conscious about the specific things she needs to do to get that accomplished. But it doesn't matter in the end. Because the end is her blowing up relationships to make her the center of everything. 

[Melissa Louise]

The question I would ask is 'does it matter?'

You don't like the way your SIL behaves. You can minimise contact with your SIL. FIL and GFIL can look after themselves. 

Have a few short scripts for your own kids when these situations happen, and then give her minimal headspace. 

You can't diagnose her; you don't have the skills. At best, you can identify patterns of behaviour that may align with particular diagnoses. I guess I don't see the utility. This is a SIL, not your mother. Entanglement should be minimal. 

I'd be aware, if it was me, that there's a possibility I was projecting some of my emotions that lie closer to home on a more comfortable target. 

 

[Lecka]

Also, like, isn’t she saying harmful things about you?  Wouldn’t it make sense to look for space from her?  
 

She has got other family, she has got a husband.  It’s not something where it seems like you have an obligation.  It’s sad but if there’s going to be ugliness I think it would be better for your kids to have more space instead of more closeness and chances for her to be rude to you.  

[Lecka]

Ita asking “does it matter.”

I have also had times that in retrospect I focused on one problem so I could avoid another.  I think that is a good point.  

[Lecka]

If I have it right that you might be getting divorced, I don’t think it’s a good time to increase involvement with your husband’s difficult family member.  I just don’t see it working out well for you.  

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

That sounds like her.  I mean, she's always been self centered.  But it seems like there has been a shift, whether it was triggered by my son's illness and death, or by the pandemic, or the pandemic, the stress of parenting four kids.

Did either of them swim back to the shallow end, so to speak?  

I guess one thing I'm not clear about is whether responding as if it's PPD/PPA and the stress of move and a new baby and having lots of kids, by which I mean offering her lots of help and opportunities to get a break and catch up on sleep, will help her heal and go back to her baseline which wasn't great but was better than this, or if it will just kind of feed the addiction to supply.  

The other thing I don't really understand is how much she's aware of this.  Like, is she consciously thinking "I want my kid to love me best, so I'm going to set this up so she thinks that her Grandfather rejected her for sexist reasons", or is she thinking "Nobody loves me and my kids, it's so sexist!  I better warn my kids about this so they can protect their hearts."  Or something in between.  Is this conscious or subconscious?

No, both seemed to get worse as they aged. One died and the other moved far away from family so we’re not in touch. 

[Rosie_0801]

30 minutes ago, Katy said:

No, both seemed to get worse as they aged. One died and the other moved far away from family so we’re not in touch. 

My favourite narcs have gotten worse as they got older too. They do things they would have been disgusted by earlier in their lives.

[Lawyer&Mom]

18 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

My favourite narcs have gotten worse as they got older too. They do things they would have been disgusted by earlier in their lives.

My favorite narc would have *hated* her behavior in anyone else. 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

If I have it right that you might be getting divorced, I don’t think it’s a good time to increase involvement with your husband’s difficult family member.  I just don’t see it working out well for you.  

I can't say for sure that we won't get divorced, because it only takes one to initiate it.  But I don't intend to get divorced.

I'm not asking if I should increase involvement.  I'm asking if there's a chance that what her family is doing will work.  I can't cut off involvement.  The logistics of co-parenting make that impossible.  

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

I'd be aware, if it was me, that there's a possibility I was projecting some of my emotions that lie closer to home on a more comfortable target. 

 

Well yeah.  I mean, obviously if she's inciting him, he's part of the issue.  But I'm not baffled by him. Distressed?  Sure. But not baffled.