So, let's say that you all are right, and my sister in law is a narcissist

[Drama Llama]

I am coming around to agree with you on this.  Maybe on the mild end?  I don't know. 

But, because of complexities involving both custody and family dynamics, I can't cut off contact.  Plus, I love her kids, and feel some kind of obligation to disrupt some of the damage that's probably being done.  

So, how does that play out in action?  What are the best strategies for dealing with this.  

[Melissa Louise]

Grey rock her. 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

Grey rock her. 

I don't know what that means. 

[Slache]

Exactly what I was going to say! Gray rock is when you are as boring as a gray rock. Short answers. Boring. No drama.

[catz]

I take grey rock as having very clear boundaries and short, boring interactions with her as an individual.  Given her particular history, I'd curtail any one on one interactions with her, make sure there's an intermediary present.  

 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, catz said:

I take grey rock as having very clear boundaries and short, boring interactions with her as an individual.  Given her particular history, I'd curtail any one on one interactions with her, make sure there's an intermediary present.  

 

Yes, and do not ever offer up any personal information when she goes probing for it. "Not your business" or "I will not answer that" is totally legitimate. Then you walk away, yawn, and read your book, grade papers, or in my case, I one time read and double checked all the footnotes on some music history papers for a class in which I was the T.A. Sister in law: "What are you doing? Why aren't you talking?" Me: "I have to get this done by Monday. Are you interested in discussing the footnotes in a paper about Domenici Scarlatti?"

She walked away and never returned which is exactly what I wanted her to do. I made an art form out of being a boring square! Give no fodder, take no B.S., do not engage. 

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes, and do not ever offer up any personal information when she goes probing for it. "Not your business" or "I will not answer that" is totally legitimate. Then you walk away, yawn, and read your book, grade papers, or in my case, I one time read and double checked all the footnotes on some music history papers for a class in which I was the T.A. Sister in law: "What are you doing? Why aren't you talking?" Me: "I have to get this done by Monday. Are you interested in discussing the footnotes in a paper about Domenici Scarlatti?"

She walked away and never returned which is exactly what I wanted her to do. I made an art form out of being a boring square! Give no fodder, take no B.S., do not engage. 

She has that information, whether I give it to her or not. 

[kristin0713]

Wow!! I never knew the term grey rock, but this is how I’ve handled my MIL and her narcissistic tendencies out of pure instinct. 

[sweet2ndchance]

Grey rocking someone is giving short but civil answers and only giving them as much information as they need. I had to do this with my ex-husband otherwise he would make a huge deal out of everything. He hates it. HATES. IT. He even tried to take me to court over it. Gray rocking someone however is not a crime lol.

It doesn't matter if she gets the information from other sources. YOUR interactions with her are short, civil and boring. You never have time to chit chat with her. You answer any questions in the shortest manner possible. "No." is a complete sentence.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

She has that information, whether I give it to her or not. 

Bummer! Well, don't engage into the conversation. Pretend to be a piece of granite.

[Katy]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/toxic-relationships/201911/the-price-and-payoff-gray-rock-strategy?amp
 

[Drama Llama]

So, the issue isn't things she says to me.  I don't really talk to her.  It's things she says to other family members that impact me, either because I care about the people she hurts, or because I have to deal with the fallout. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So, the issue isn't things she says to me.  I don't really talk to her.  It's things she says to other family members that impact me, either because I care about the people she hurts, or because I have to deal with the fallout. 

We need examples to give advice 

[Indigo Blue]

 

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Baseballandhockey said:

So, the issue isn't things she says to me.  I don't really talk to her.  It's things she says to other family members that impact me, either because I care about the people she hurts, or because I have to deal with the fallout. 

That is really unfortunate, bad bad bad. However, in my experience with narcissistic sister in law, there was nothing within my control that stopped her from making up crap. Nothing. So you probably cannot do anything about that. You might be able to change how you react to the fallout. But you cannot do anything that stops her from hurting others unless the others are your kids, in which case you may need to put your children's well being ahead of your nieces and nephews and father in law, and refuse contact with her. I get how hard that is. In our case, my parents were very hurt when I pulled the plug on contact with my brother and sister in law. My mothers ever the family holiday meal kind of person, has not had all of us together under one roof though we live within blocks of each other, for 12 years. However, her hurt could not be more important than my own sons' mental well being, and she made up the most horrible lies about me which hurt them, and about them as well, shockingly unforgivable stuff. So my kids had to come first, and now that they are all grown adults, they see her for what she is and of their own accord chosen no contact with their aunt and uncle. All of my brother's kids are grown adults, five of them. Three are no contact with their parents and have relationships with my children. Two have stuck by their parents which is fine, but has resulted by necessity in all of us and the other siblings being no contact with them.

And I know you have custody issues which complicates everything. You can only do the best you can, and sadly that might mean that your kids do not get to be around their cousins whenever you can prevent it, and maybe have to have supervised visitation away from father in law's home if he is not willing to to take a stand.

Many, many hugs to you! All of this just stinks, and good answers are few and far between.

[Melissa Louise]

You can only influence your interactions with her, not hers with other people.

It's a bitter pill, that's for sure. But her interactions with the rest of the family (other than your children) are outside your sphere of control. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

So, the issue isn't things she says to me.  I don't really talk to her.  It's things she says to other family members that impact me, either because I care about the people she hurts, or because I have to deal with the fallout. 

Not a problem you can solve. If it's your kids, and she's hurting them, then you have to put your kids over her kids and/or the rest of the family. Your kids are the ones you have a duty to protect, no one else. 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

That is really unfortunate, bad bad bad. However, in my experience with narcissistic sister in law, there was nothing within my control that stopped her from making up crap. Nothing. So you probably cannot do anything about that. You might be able to change how you react to the fallout. But you cannot do anything that stops her from hurting others unless the others are your kids, in which case you may need to put your children's well being ahead of your nieces and nephews and father in law, and refuse contact with her. I get how hard that is. In our case, my parents were very hurt when I pulled the plug on contact with my brother and sister in law. My mothers ever the family holiday meal kind of person, has not had all of us together under one roof though we live within blocks of each other, for 12 years. However, her hurt could not be more important than my own sons' mental well being, and she made up the most horrible lies about me which hurt them, and about them as well, shockingly unforgivable stuff. So my kids had to come first, and now that they are all grown adults, they see her for what she is and of their own accord chosen no contact with their aunt and uncle. All of my brother's kids are grown adults, five of them. Three are no contact with their parents and have relationships with my children. Two have stuck by their parents which is fine, but has resulted by necessity in all of us and the other siblings being no contact with them.

And I know you have custody issues which complicates everything. You can only do the best you can, and sadly that might mean that your kids do not get to be around their cousins whenever you can prevent it, and maybe have to have supervised visitation away from father in law's home if he is not willing to to take a stand.

Many, many hugs to you! All of this just stinks, and good answers are few and far between.

So, I don’t get to choose where my kids have court ordered visitation with their Dad.  He gets to make that choice, and while his sister bothers me then cousins provide dilution and distraction for my kids who find undiluted contact stressful. 

Plus, while my SIL has said some pretty egregious things, she’s definitely both less ill and her behavior is less out of bounds than my DH’s.  I can’t ask the rest of his family to stand by my husband and my kids, which they have done in a million ways over the past 3.5 years and then demand that they turn around and not stand by their other grandchildren who also need their presence.  

[Drama Llama]

6 minutes ago, katilac said:

Not a problem you can solve. If it's your kids, and she's hurting them, then you have to put your kids over her kids and/or the rest of the family. Your kids are the ones you have a duty to protect, no one else. 

I don’t know what that looks like when I can’t prevent contact and when the way she hurts my kids the most is by inciting their father.

[Slache]

Your children will be fine. Young, easily manipulated children should not spend a significant amount of time with a disordered person, but that's not the situation. You may have to clarify some things to the kids or correct learned behavior, but they'll be fine.

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, Slache said:

Your children will be fine. Young, easily manipulated children should not spend a significant amount of time with a disordered person, but that's not the situation. You may have to clarify some things to the kids or correct learned behavior, but they'll be fine.

I love your optimism.

[Melissa Louise]

She incites their Dad? That doesn't sound good. 

It's super hard, but sub actual abuse  (and sometimes not even then) you sometimes just can't do anything about a situation, except acknowledge it, and let the kids know they can talk about it. Some situations might require professional support. 

Kids are sent to spend time with all manner of dysfunctional people. It's not great, but it is what it is. 

[katilac]

30 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I don’t know what that looks like when I can’t prevent contact and when the way she hurts my kids the most is by inciting their father.

That sucks, but you can't control it. 

You can mostly commiserate with your kids if they are having a hard time, which is maddening - but Melissa Louise is right, kids are expected to spend time with dysfunctional parents (and the corresponding dysfunctional social circle) as a matter of course. Therapy can be helpful, but I'm assuming your kids are still in therapy already. 

Protecting your kids in this situation might look like not spending time with her when they are in your custody. It might look like not doing as much with her kids, if she weaponizes that. The details will vary, but mostly it looks like minimizing exposure and minimizing her control (don't plan vacations or big outings with them, for example). 

You don't give her a reaction when she does something stupid that you can't stop. Because, well, you can't stop, and the reaction is what she wants. 

Not reacting includes not reacting to anyone in her family, even those you trust and feel 100% secure are on your side. People let things slip, even with the best of intentions. 

[Drama Llama]

We have had some more incidents of her inciting DH which have me thinking.  I would like to understand.  If I tell the story that made me think “this could be narcissism” would you tell me what to think?

This is neither the most egregious nor the most recent.  It might be one of the most puzzling.  For the record I did not respond to this.  I don’t know that she knows I know. I know because her her kid told mine.

A big complaint that she has is that she feels like her Dad goes to more of my kids’ things than her kids’.  He tries to go to as much as he can of both, but he probably does go to more of mine.  

We have 4 athletes between us, but a few weekends ago, only the two 11 year olds had games.  Her kid’s game was 4 hours away, and mine was in a local tournament.  He went to 1 local game and didn’t go to the distant one, in part because he wanted to visit my DH in the hospital.

The next weekend on Saturday her 8 year old and 11 year old had games that conflicted.  On Sunday her 11 year old and my 11 year old had games that conflicted.  He decided that he would go to the 8 year old’s on Saturday and her 11 year old’s on Sunday, and told mine that he was skipping since he saw him the previous week.  

But Sunday was very cold and my SIL called him and said “I don’t want the baby there, can you keep him?” And so he didn’t go, instead he went to her house and watched the baby.  

My niece was upset and complained that he never comes to her games.  She asked her mother why he didn’t bring the baby to watch her play.  My SIL told her “Some people don’t care about women’s sports”.  

OK, that’s technically a true statement, but it had nothing to do with his decision.   And frankly I can’t think of a time when the gender of the kid played a role in a decision about what kid’s game to watch. I will acknowledge that he does watch more pro and college men’s sports than women’s.  

Does that seem narcissist?  I can’t really come up with another reason.  I realize she didn’t want to say “I asked him to” because she can’t stand to be the one who makes her kids upset, but why wouldn’t she say “I don’t know” or something.

Anyway, does that sound like narcissism?

[Katy]

When coupled with the other things you've said about her, yes.  There's no reason to say that except to create drama, animosity, and cause trouble. And to further her agenda that she and her favorite kid doesn't get enough attention from her dad and you get too much. It's all about attention and power and creating drama gives them a surge of triumph, even if the same actions are unnecessary, hurtful, mean, and evil to normal people.

I'm headed to bed, but I hope you get some peace and sleep tonight.

[Katy]

https://www.choosingtherapy.com/narcissistic-supply/

[Harriet Vane]

9 minutes ago, Katy said:

When coupled with the other things you've said about her, yes.  There's no reason to say that except to create drama, animosity, and cause trouble. And to further her agenda that she and her favorite kid doesn't get enough attention from her dad and you get too much. It's all about attention and power and creating drama gives them a surge of triumph, even if the same actions are unnecessary, hurtful, mean, and evil to normal people.

I'm headed to bed, but I hope you get some peace and sleep tonight.

QFT.

What a nasty, ugly thing to say to her daughter. It impacts her daughter's relationship with her grandfather, demeans his sweet sacrifice both in going to games and in babysitting that day, and it is a LIE about sil's choices. In short, it's disgusting behavior.

The correct answer would have been to tell her daughter that sil asked Gramps to babysit because of the weather, and remind her daughter that Gramps loves her and loves watching her games.

 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Harriet Vane said:

QFT.

What a nasty, ugly thing to say to her daughter. It impacts her daughter's relationship with her grandfather, demeans his sweet sacrifice both in going to games and in babysitting that day, and it is a LIE about sil's choices. In short, it's disgusting behavior.

The correct answer would have been to tell her daughter that sil asked Gramps to babysit because of the weather, and remind her daughter that Gramps loves her and loves watching her games.

 

Do you mean that was the correct answer for her to have given?  Or that I should have said so?

I only heard the comment through my son.  She (my niece) called him to ask him what he thought which I actually was a good thing that she is reality testing the craziness.  He said something along the lines of “But he went to your sister’s game. He likes girls games.   You should ask Grandpa.”

[Drama Llama]

19 minutes ago, Katy said:

When coupled with the other things you've said about her, yes.  There's no reason to say that except to create drama, animosity, and cause trouble. And to further her agenda that she and her favorite kid doesn't get enough attention from her dad and you get too much. It's all about attention and power and creating drama gives them a surge of triumph, even if the same actions are unnecessary, hurtful, mean, and evil to normal people.

I'm headed to bed, but I hope you get some peace and sleep tonight.

I guess I usually see her as being hyper protective of her oldest so it surprised me that she’d hurt her like that. Plus it’s feeding the “I hate being a girl, boys get everything.”  

[catz]

I agree that could fit into a narcissist personality.   She is really gaslighting to change the narrative to benefit her and make her look better.  And for such a small thing to make her life easier.    She could have stayed home with baby.  She could have bundled baby up and took shifts in the car if needed. 

She is playing a dangerous game now that her oldest is figuring it out.  Teen years could be interesting.  

[kristin0713]

This one instance of the games and feeling like her dad doesn’t go to her kids’ things as much could just be insecurity, immaturity, and jealousy. Not necessarily narcissism. I’m not familiar with / don’t remember the details of the other situations though. 

[Ceilingfan]

I think a more useful way to look at it might be that we all (well, most of us?) have some degree of narcissism; it's the human condition. We all experience narcissistic injury (something threatens our ego's conception of who we are, and we feel insecure as a result and try to negate that by denying or overwriting the thing that injured us). For people with full-blown NPD, this sort of perceived injury is constant, ubiquitous, not occasional; the insecurity is total, not limited, so they can't see the value of interacting honestly with other people; everything, all the time, is a defense against ever possibly feeling the injury, and they even act in offense to drum up support for the damaged ego, because just sitting alone in a room they *still* feel the profoundly terrifying injury.

So this is absolutely a narcissistic defense against injury; she doesn't want her daughter to think of her as having sacrificed Grandpa seeing the game for the needs of the baby, maybe, or it's internally difficult for her to realize that the daughter cares whether Grandpa comes to the game (instead of only caring whether SIL comes), or it's hard to bear the possible rejection of Grandpa ever choosing not to come so she makes the rejection happen beforehand, so that she can control the narrative if it - a million reasons.

But I don't know that it suggests NPD, the diagnosable personality disorder, in the way that if I lie about some inane thing, even in a way that might hurt someone else just so that I will not have to face the truth or be vulnerable in some way, that's narcissistic, a result of a narcissistic injury, but it doesn't mean I have a personality disorder.

Her insecurity is clearly pretty severe, because this particular defense is egregious.

[Doodlebug]

I think letting go of SIL, including her influence over others, is probably the only course of action you have.  After a trauma involving my family and SIL's son, my in laws choose to support their daughter/grandson at our expense.  I'm heartbroken that they have failed to find a way to distinguish their love and support of her/him from their love and understanding of the very difficult situation we are in.  I feel very much like an outsider, a DIL, and I have never felt that way in 20 years of marriage.

All of this to say... your ability to control, or beat back the influence, of a SIL has always been zero.  The family DYNAMIC may support an honest view of her antics, but that depends on factors outside of your control.  The only thing to be done is to continue being you - focus on your children, your primary relationships, do what you do.  

  

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

This one instance of the games and feeling like her dad doesn’t go to her kids’ things as much could just be insecurity, immaturity, and jealousy. Not necessarily narcissism. I’m not familiar with / don’t remember the details of the other situations though. 

My FIL does go to more of my kids' things than to hers, and sees my kids more.  There are lots of factors that go into it, including the fact that we live a few blocks away and they live a 30 minute drive away, and the fact that neither of my kids play a travel sport, so all their games are local.  I know that something (PPD?  PPA?  narcissism? my own issues?) prevents her from seeing it the same way I do.  If she'd said "well, he went because he likes them better than you", I would have still felt bad for my niece, but I would have assumed that she was sharing what she actually believed.  

But there's no way she thought that her Dad choosing her 8 year old daughter over her 11 year old daughter was a sign of sexism.  That doesn't make sense.  And he chose the baby, because she asked him to, not because the baby is a boy.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My FIL does go to more of my kids' things than to hers, and sees my kids more.  There are lots of factors that go into it, including the fact that we live a few blocks away and they live a 30 minute drive away, and the fact that neither of my kids play a travel sport, so all their games are local.  I know that something (PPD?  PPA?  narcissism? my own issues?) prevents her from seeing it the same way I do.  If she'd said "well, he went because he likes them better than you", I would have still felt bad for my niece, but I would have assumed that she was sharing what she actually believed.  

But there's no way she thought that her Dad choosing her 8 year old daughter over her 11 year old daughter was a sign of sexism.  That doesn't make sense.  And he chose the baby, because she asked him to, not because the baby is a boy.  

If she's a narcissist, she will want to stir up drama and trouble from whatever source, including her own 8 year old daughter.  It doesn't make sense because that isn't a sensible goal for an adult. 

[Ceilingfan]

If I were you - nevermind, if I were you I'd be beside myself. 

But like if I were playing you as a character in a macabre video game, so I didn't really have to worry about the risk and I could take breaks to step out of the insanity for as long as I liked, I would deal with your SIL by telling everyone the flat truth every time she lies. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to help my position in the short term, or to fix her at all, but I'd want my kids and FIL and even her kids to know, without any emotional drama, what the truth is. Eventually, at least, maybe, there will be a recognition that you are a stable and reliable source of reality, in a sea of irrational unreality. That is useful for you, and it's useful for everyone she manipulates, even if it's confusing and distressing in the moment.

But life isn't a video game unfortunately and I really feel for how difficult it is to manage this intrusive hurtful craziness in addition to your own life.

[Drama Llama]

22 minutes ago, Ceilingfan said:

If I were you - nevermind, if I were you I'd be beside myself. 

But like if I were playing you as a character in a macabre video game, so I didn't really have to worry about the risk and I could take breaks to step out of the insanity for as long as I liked, I would deal with your SIL by telling everyone the flat truth every time she lies. I wouldn't necessarily expect it to help my position in the short term, or to fix her at all, but I'd want my kids and FIL and even her kids to know, without any emotional drama, what the truth is. Eventually, at least, maybe, there will be a recognition that you are a stable and reliable source of reality, in a sea of irrational unreality. That is useful for you, and it's useful for everyone she manipulates, even if it's confusing and distressing in the moment.

But life isn't a video game unfortunately and I really feel for how difficult it is to manage this intrusive hurtful craziness in addition to your own life.

In this circumstance, would you have told her kids the truth?  Or your own kids?  Would you have told FIL? 

The things she tells my DH are much bigger issues, and have safety implications, but they aren't clearcut lies.  I do refute those, but I don't involve the kids. 

[freesia]

17 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

In this circumstance, would you have told her kids the truth?  Or your own kids?  Would you have told FIL? 

The things she tells my DH are much bigger issues, and have safety implications, but they aren't clearcut lies.  I do refute those, but I don't involve the kids. 

I would have said to my kid,”That is so odd she said that. Are you sure? Because Gpa stayed home to watch the baby bc auntie asked him to.”  I would make is casual and use a puzzled voice. I would keep it light and leave it at that. In dniece had been there when it came up, I would have says the same thing in the same tone.

I wouldn’t mention it to FIL. That’s what will cause drama imo. 

[El...]

"That doesn't sound like grandpa. Anywho, how was the game?" 

"Huh. That doesn't fit the way I saw things. Anyway, let's leave that between them." 

"I wouldn't think that about (whoever). She's been very kind, in my experience." 

"That doesn't match what I know about him." (Full stop.) 

You don't have to say someone is a liar to infuse a little truthful doubt and put people, even kids, on guard. I've had to do that when someone became very mean or negative, and it helps protect the person who's being slandered.

[Lecka]

Honestly I think it is fair for you to ask those you can not to share personal info.

 

Some you can’t, some you can.  
 

I remind my husband, for example.  

[Drama Llama]

6 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Honestly I think it is fair for you to ask those you can not to share personal info.

 

Some you can’t, some you can.  
 

I remind my husband, for example.  

I have zero control over what he says.  

[Rosie_0801]

Your niece spoke to your son, so you don't need to be part of this story at all. 

Your SIL lied because she's a crappy person.
Your niece will have to learn to deal with being a lower priority to Grandpa. Hopefully she does this by thinking that's to be expected because she lives further away, rather than becoming bitter and twisted about it like her mother.

[catz]

I personally wouldn't be at all shy about calling out another adult's poor or puzzling behavior in front of my own kids.  I wouldn't try to diagnose or demonize.  I may muse about motivations.  But these conversations were pretty important for us to have and I think have benefitted my kids as they've branched out and met more people and being able to identify emotionally unhealthy behavior.  I remember seeing so many adults acting badly as a kid and my parents acting like that was perfectly normal behavoir.   I'm sorry your kids have far too much experience with this.  😞  

[Lecka]

Nm

 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Nm

Edited April 10, 2022 by Lecka

[Drama Llama]

13 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Your niece spoke to your son, so you don't need to be part of this story at all. 

Your SIL lied because she's a crappy person.
Your niece will have to learn to deal with being a lower priority to Grandpa. Hopefully she does this by thinking that's to be expected because she lives further away, rather than becoming bitter and twisted about it like her mother.

My niece isn’t a lower priority to Grandpa.  Where do you get that? 

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My niece isn’t a lower priority to Grandpa.  Where do you get that? 

I thought you said he sees more of your kids than SIL's.

[Ceilingfan]

I see more of my kid's daycare provider than my sister, but that doesn't mean she is a higher priority. It just means my sister lives far away.

[Harriet Vane]

13 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Do you mean that was the correct answer for her to have given?  Or that I should have said so?

I only heard the comment through my son.  She (my niece) called him to ask him what he thought which I actually was a good thing that she is reality testing the craziness.  He said something along the lines of “But he went to your sister’s game. He likes girls games.   You should ask Grandpa.”

Your sil should have given her daughter the honest and the kinder answer, that sil asked Gramps to babysit and that Gramps loves niece/daughter.

I think your son’s answer was brilliant.

[Ceilingfan]

I'm not sure what the right thing to say to who would be, but at the very least I'd tell my kid the truth. "Nope, that's not why Gpa didn't go to the game. Aunt (name) asked him to watch the baby."

If niece brought it up to me directly I'd say the same. Not sure I'd call FIL to rat out SIL. I think probably not. But anyone who spoke about it in my presence, or to my kids out of my presence, would get a flat statement of the truth every time. No engagement after that as to questions about why she lied, etc. Those are all "I don't know, honey" answers.