Student Loan Forgiveness

[fairfarmhand]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Wow.
Are you advocating for deep courses in psychology, sociology, criminal justice, childhood development and trauma, cultural diversity, impacts of substance addictions, mental illness, and the like to be added to the high school curriculum?
Are we really going to let high school grads provide weekly counseling for abused children, in addition to the ones who “just” determine whether or not to remove children and where they should go? 
Or do we just not give a dump about kids?

Just musing here. So what if a high school education actually meant something so that when a kid graduated they could move on for 2-3 years to the core of their work in college. So no need for college history since they covered it at a high level in the last 2 years of high school No need for college composition since they had a rigorous schooling Jr and Sr year of high school. No need for classes that are not related to their major because the core was covered at a high level in grades 11/12 in high school. Then, for instance a psychology major would fill their schedule with psych related classes rather than some of the other ones. I do believe that social workers and psych majors who want to be therapists need WAY more than a simple HS diploma. But maybe if the process was streamlined, they could avoid years of college which puts them deeper into debt. 

Just a thought. 

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Just musing here. So what if a high school education actually meant something so that when a kid graduated they could move on for 2-3 years to the core of their work in college. So no need for college history since they covered it at a high level in the last 2 years of high school No need for college composition since they had a rigorous schooling Jr and Sr year of high school. No need for classes that are not related to their major because the core was covered at a high level in grades 11/12 in high school. Then, for instance a psychology major would fill their schedule with psych related classes rather than some of the other ones. I do believe that social workers and psych majors who want to be therapists need WAY more than a simple HS diploma. But maybe if the process was streamlined, they could avoid years of college which puts them deeper into debt. 

Just a thought. 

I don’t think anyone disagrees with that?   In fact there are many ways for someone to complete those requirements before HS graduation. AP, CLEP, taking them via dual or concurrent enrollment…

Most of my kids have done so. It’s totally possible for a kid with good grades and *no other impediments* to get 2 years of college credits by the time they graduate high school. 

*but realize that over 60% of students here have a major impediment - and that impediment is their k-10th grade education

Edited April 5, 2022 by Murphy101

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Just musing here. So what if a high school education actually meant something so that when a kid graduated they could move on for 2-3 years to the core of their work in college. So no need for college history since they covered it at a high level in the last 2 years of high school No need for college composition since they had a rigorous schooling Jr and Sr year of high school. No need for classes that are not related to their major because the core was covered at a high level in grades 11/12 in high school. Then, for instance a psychology major would fill their schedule with psych related classes rather than some of the other ones. I do believe that social workers and psych majors who want to be therapists need WAY more than a simple HS diploma. But maybe if the process was streamlined, they could avoid years of college which puts them deeper into debt. 

Just a thought. 

I’m not *entirely* against that, to certain extents. I do think some high school classes are too watered down and some college Gen Eds are WAY too lame.  There should be a better medium.

It could be a valuable piece to an overall reform.

 

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think anyone disagrees with that?   In fact there are many ways for someone to complete those requirements before HS graduation. AP, CLEP, taking them via dual or concurrent enrollment…

Most of my kids have done so. It’s totally possible for a kid with good grades and *no other impediments* to get 2 years of college credits by the time they graduate high school. 

Well, that and money, time, support, and sometimes transportation. Still, very helpful options for those who can swing it.

[Jenny in Florida]

21 hours ago, shawthorne44 said:

 I also wouldn't mind colleges being required to set a minimum salary at some time period after college.   Maybe 6 months to a year after graduation.   They could set requirements on it similar to Unemployment.   If you can't get a job at that salary after college, then you get some of your money back.   If colleges set their minimum salary for XYZ degree at 20K, that would be informative.  

Except that the primary purpose of going to college isn't (or, in my humble opinion, should not be) job training or to lock in a specific salary. The purpose of attending college is to obtain education. Many people find that having a solid, broad-based education helps them succeed in their chosen careers (and have the knowledge and skills necessary to adapt and change careers throughout their lives). And there are some careers (teaching, architecture, medicine, law, etc.) that require mastery of a specific set of knowledge and skills demonstrated by earning a college degree. But none of that is the same as saying that the purpose of "going to college" is or should be a promise of job success.

My undergraduate degree is in English. I didn't have a clear plan for a career when I went to college. I just knew that reading/writing/thinking about reading and writing were the things I was good at and loved. I flirted with the idea of earning a teaching certificate, but a year in the education department beat that idea out of my head. 

I graduated with my B.A. and a pocket full of student loans and went out into the world . . . and right back into the same retail jobs I was doing before I finished school. But my education provided me with skills and knowledge I leveraged to get really good at those early crappy jobs. And, yes, eventually it turned out that having the degree also opened some doors that would not have been open to me with only a high school diploma. However, it was the education that helped make me good at the job.

Edited to add (because I have a lot of feelings and thoughts about this): 

It's been a good thing for me that college wasn't job training, because if I had been forced to stick with any of the careers I loosely assumed I would head into while I was earning that B.A., I would have been in trouble. Instead, I have found that the "soft skills" I learned by earning a degree in a liberal arts field have served me extremely well. I have been able to adapt those skills and draw on my knowledge base to succeed in a variety of jobs. And the broad based education has set me up well to learn whatever I have needed to adapt and grow along the way.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Jenny in Florida

[Sneezyone]

26 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think anyone disagrees with that?   In fact there are many ways for someone to complete those requirements before HS graduation. AP, CLEP, taking them via dual or concurrent enrollment…

Most of my kids have done so. It’s totally possible for a kid with good grades and *no other impediments* to get 2 years of college credits by the time they graduate high school. 

*but realize that over 60% of students here have a major impediment - and that impediment is their k-10th grade education

The impediments aren't just academic. Our district effectively restricts AA degree completion to the top .1% of students by ensuring that the only way to take all of the classes required for both an AA degree and an advanced diploma is coming into high school with geometry and a year of foreign language completed. The *ONLY* students allowed/tracked to do that are gifted-identified and the district does not universally test at any grade level.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

The impediments aren't just academic. Our district effectively restricts AA degree completion to the top .1% of students but ensuring that the only way to achieve all the classes for both an AA degree and an advanced diploma is coming into high school with geometry and a year of foreign language completed. The *ONLY* students allowed to do that are gifted-identified and the district does not universally test at any grade level.

Yep. Lots of restrictions on who can actually access those options here too. Like I said. The biggest impediment is the k12 system itself. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

19 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The impediments aren't just academic. Our district effectively restricts AA degree completion to the top .1% of students by ensuring that the only way to take all of the classes required for both an AA degree and an advanced diploma is coming into high school with geometry and a year of foreign language completed. The *ONLY* students allowed/tracked to do that are gifted-identified and the district does not universally test at any grade level.

Yep.  I had no idea when we moved that our new district did this.  It is one of the reasons we are sending our daughter to a private Christian school next year in 5th grade; because almost all of their students graduate with an AA degree. Our old public school district was similar, but our new district has it set up that only a very small number of students can actually take dual enrollment classes.

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Jenny in Florida said:

Except that the primary purpose of going to college isn't (or, in my humble opinion, should not be) job training or to lock in a specific salary. The purpose of attending college is to obtain education. Many people find that having a solid, broad-based education helps them succeed in their chosen careers (and have the knowledge and skills necessary to adapt and change careers throughout their lives). And there are some careers (teaching, architecture, medicine, law, etc.) that require mastery of a specific set of knowledge and skills demonstrated by earning a college degree. But none of that is the same as saying that the purpose of "going to college" is or should be a promise of job success.

My undergraduate degree is in English. I didn't have a clear plan for a career when I went to college. I just knew that reading/writing/thinking about reading and writing were the things I was good at and loved. I flirted with the idea of earning a teaching certificate, but a year in the education department beat that idea out of my head. 

I graduated with my B.A. and a pocket full of student loans and went out into the world . . . and right back into the same retail jobs I was doing before I finished school. But my education provided me with skills and knowledge I leveraged to get really good at those early crappy jobs. And, yes, eventually it turned out that having the degree also opened some doors that would not have been open to me with only a high school diploma. However, it was the education that helped make me good at the job.

Edited to add (because I have a lot of feelings and thoughts about this): 

It's been a good thing for me that college wasn't job training, because if I had been forced to stick with any of the careers I loosely assumed I would head into while I was earning that B.A., I would have been in trouble. Instead, I have found that the "soft skills" I learned by earning a degree in a liberal arts field have served me extremely well. I have been able to adapt those skills and draw on my knowledge base to succeed in a variety of jobs. And the broad based education has set me up well to learn whatever I have needed to adapt and grow along the way.

My favorite thing about the internet is that you no longer have to go anywhere to learn things recreationally.  With college costs as high as they are, there really does need to be an income attached to that degree that can at least repay the student loans before retirement.

27 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Yep.  I had no idea when we moved that our new district did this.  It is one of the reasons we are sending our daughter to a private Christian school next year in 5th grade; because almost all of their students graduate with an AA degree. Our old public school district was similar, but our new district has it set up that only a very small number of students can actually take dual enrollment classes.

I looked it up, our school system has about 3% enrollment.  I'm not sure how to measure that.  It could be a low number, but our high schools also have an abundance of advanced courses, so it's not like the kids can't be challenged with the classes available to them.  You can save 50% on CC courses, but there are advantages to entering some schools as a freshman, so that's a consideration also.  Most of the students in my district are in the gifted program and about 80% go to college.  I'm not sure how beneficial getting an AA earlier really is in the grand scheme of things or that the accelerated timeline benefits most students.

[Sneezyone]

22 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Yep.  I had no idea when we moved that our new district did this.  It is one of the reasons we are sending our daughter to a private Christian school next year in 5th grade; because almost all of their students graduate with an AA degree. Our old public school district was similar, but our new district has it set up that only a very small number of students can actually take dual enrollment classes.

I am so, incredibly, tired of people with champions and opportunity being advanced over SUPREMELY talented individuals of diverse backgrounds (which has zero impact on my willingness.ability to advocate for my own kids) that I can no longer be civil about it. This article appeared in the WA Post this week. They literally scanned his brain (b/c exceptional) but would never consider admitting him.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/interactive/2022/multilingual-hyperpolyglot-brain-languages/?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fb_news_token=YiJxAOF4D4rbhWS7mQ6x8g%3D%3D.8IqC6OUc87rRjODYIPylGpJbP56BbnBDs%2BOhOQhLZ3nFlDpZsxtrL7X7VVHIjZG3HvtFxJTrCsf69AKo29hJIO3NXREbsIiwWMglKdPxL8Lv%2FVemhGmX59WK9myD36dguJ3t0CzjTQs5KcF8dYCdZ9gc9mRsz30SwRSVIjXmK%2FNV6kGI9ZxdviEvtLwVnYFPRe1Hks55ENIeDpz0Dc%2FETZ1MaE6%2B1gN9crp7Lv8%2BCohIyVwHP2Jtd9APiJmGPDyR2%2BJ2quI5s09FD%2FpANon0JGiMlR431FiNhmid7fi%2B97ZAlg2TuxwqRU22jledJzFx4vO%2Bn0Gbt2fY7NNt9J%2FFavBOdsCJBXyBh%2Fvjzv6FsrZWhlPe%2FfYORimmgcqeJW88&fbclid=IwAR3rhjPtsOw0GHbN3FqcrBmm0lmBrjSedwF77lYNBxBjOouGJBrBjvYvp-c

It's truly a scourge on humanity. We can and should do better.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

22 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Wow.
Are you advocating for deep courses in psychology, sociology, criminal justice, childhood development and trauma, cultural diversity, impacts of substance addictions, mental illness, and the like to be added to the high school curriculum?
Are we really going to let high school grads provide weekly counseling for abused children, in addition to the ones who “just” determine whether or not to remove children and where they should go? 
Or do we just not give a dump about kids?

My state a few years ago made a purposeful switch to allow individuals with only an associate’s degree to be child welfare workers. They do provide them with additional training. But they wanted to diversify the workforce and bring in people with a wider variety of backgrounds and experiences. And after much study and evaluation, they decided this was the best way to do it.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Frances

[Frances]

18 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Just musing here. So what if a high school education actually meant something so that when a kid graduated they could move on for 2-3 years to the core of their work in college. So no need for college history since they covered it at a high level in the last 2 years of high school No need for college composition since they had a rigorous schooling Jr and Sr year of high school. No need for classes that are not related to their major because the core was covered at a high level in grades 11/12 in high school. Then, for instance a psychology major would fill their schedule with psych related classes rather than some of the other ones. I do believe that social workers and psych majors who want to be therapists need WAY more than a simple HS diploma. But maybe if the process was streamlined, they could avoid years of college which puts them deeper into debt. 

Just a thought. 

This is basically the model at many European universities because the high schools provide exactly what you describe. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Frances

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, Frances said:

My state a few years ago made a purposeful switch to allow individuals with only an associate’s degree to be child welfare workers. They do provide them with additional training. But they wanted to diverse the workforce and bring in people with a wider variety of backgrounds and experiences. And after much study and evaluation, they decided this was the best way to do it.

That kind of hurts my heart.
NOT the fact that it’s “only” about 2 years, or that it’s more affordable due to that, or that the state , I’m assuming, did increase access and employment in that field.  Thumbs up for those things on their own!

I’m obviously obsessed with a specific sector of social work (not to discount others.) And I know what the Social Work AA looks like where I am.  It’s 2 courses in SW and 5 in SOC, with some of those being considered requirements for just about any major.  With all the many troubles CPS has (or whatever acronym for each state), I’m reluctant to imagine how, for example, my niece and nephew would have been handled by people with less knowledge in the multiple areas that were affecting their lives. Or how the people they lived with for 8 months might have been picked and trained.  Because of the nation-wide issues we all know we already have, I still worry every day about the decisions that were made.  I don’t know how I would feel if I knew their most advanced courses were “Social Problems” and “Human Behavior an the Social Environment”.

With a curriculum overhaul, perhaps it could be a good thing. I certainly don’t think a future social worker needs 6 credits in Literature, but that’s what they currently demand; the same number of credits they need with the SW designation. Sigh.

[Murphy101]

9 hours ago, Frances said:

My state a few years ago made a purposeful switch to allow individuals with only an associate’s degree to be child welfare workers. They do provide them with additional training. But they wanted to diverse the workforce and bring in people with a wider variety of backgrounds and experiences. And after much study and evaluation, they decided this was the best way to do it.

Which was butt backwards of them but cheaper than making bachelors in SW more accessible.  More diversity from a wider background” is real estate dress up for “only people from X demographic situations can afford to go into this work and they are asking for more pay than people from a lower education would, so let’s lower the education requirement and get more and cheaper applicants”.

Not a fan. If they know the higher education is restrictive to certain demographics, they are acknowledging they are okay with the inequality if it means cheaper employment. 

[Bootsie]

10 hours ago, Frances said:

This is basically the model at many European universities because the high schools provide exactly what you describe. 

And, there are career choices like nursing and kindergarten teacher in some of those countries which do not require a college degree.  

[Murphy101]

34 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

And, there are career choices like nursing and kindergarten teacher in some of those countries which do not require a college degree.  

Most European countries have tiered nursing programs tied to tiered levels of education similar to the states. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

And, there are career choices like nursing and kindergarten teacher in some of those countries which do not require a college degree.  

 

31 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Most European countries have tiered nursing programs tied to tiered levels of education similar to the states. 

Yes - here there are LPN, RN, BSN, ARNP, etc etc. 

[SKL]

Re SW not requiring a bachelor's - I could definitely see that.  I mean let's be honest, those of us who have a bachelor's, how much of it was irrelevant to our degree?

And access to education isn't just being able to afford the courses.  It's being able to give up 4+ young adult working years.  A proposal to provide a living wage in addition to education for 4 years is just not going to be in the budget realistically.

I could see a tailored AA (with highly relevant coursework including field work), plus college tuition subsidies for those who are willing to continue pursuing a bachelor's while working in social work.

Edited April 6, 2022 by SKL
I was unclear.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Re SW not requiring a bachelor's - I could definitely see that.  I mean let's be honest, those of us who have a bachelor's, how much of it would really make us better social workers?

And access to education isn't just being able to afford the courses.  It's being able to give up 4+ young adult working years.  A proposal to provide a living wage in addition to education for 4 years is just not going to be in the budget realistically.

I could see a tailored AA (with highly relevant coursework including field work), plus college tuition subsidies for those who are willing to continue pursuing a bachelor's while working in social work.

Well, I mean, if my major was in social work I think it would make me a better social worker. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, I mean, if my major was in social work I think it would make me a better social worker. 

Deep dives into public accounting isn't going to help you better understand public policy, history, psychology, or sociology, no.

[SKL]

What undergrad degree is wanted for social work?  I tried finding it at my alma mater in order to see the course list, but there isn't any bachelor's degree category that is obviously about social work.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

What undergrad degree is wanted for social work?  I tried finding it at my alma mater in order to see the course list, but there isn't any bachelor's degree category that is obviously about social work.

Social work is typically a GRADUATE degree, layered on top of psychology, sociology, English, political science, etc. Having a broad base of knowledge in the humanities is supremely helpful.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Deep dives into public accounting isn't going to help you better understand public policy, history, psychology, or sociology, no.

If that was intended as a dig toward me, my bachelor's wasn't in accounting ... and I actually had lots of psych and soc classes.  But my point was about all the classes everyone is required to take whether they're relevant to your career goals or not.  At least in the US, where they pad the course list to make everyone take 4 years whether they need it or not.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Social work is typically a GRADUATE degree, layered on top of psychology, sociology, English, political science, etc. Having a broad base of knowledge in the humanities is supremely helpful.

Yeah I have seen grad soc work degrees ... presumably not for everyday folks in the field though.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

If that was intended as a dig toward me, my bachelor's wasn't in accounting ... and I actually had lots of psych and soc classes.  But my point was about all the classes everyone is required to take whether they're relevant to your career goals or not.  At least in the US, where they pad the course list to make everyone take 4 years whether they need it or not.

It wasn't a dig at you. It was a statement about what is helpful for those working in public administration and human service fields.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I have seen grad soc work degrees ... presumably not for everyday folks in the field though.

Having a graduate degree is the only way to make any money in social work. Undergraduate preparation is good but insufficient to move up in the field. If what we want/need are people to pick up children and compassionately place them elsewhere based on checklists and rubrics with very little judgment exercised, 2-years of study and huge case loads would be fine. That's not what we expect of social workers.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

OK maybe I'm missing the original sub-point, i.e., the difficulty of bringing appropriate education to entry-level social workers.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

OK maybe I'm missing the original sub-point, i.e., the difficulty of bringing appropriate education to entry-level social workers.

The difficulty isn't 'bringing appropriate education to entry-level social workers'. It's paying social workers livable wages such that those already inclined and qualified to do the work don't feel shorted by following their hearts/passions.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The difficulty isn't 'bringing appropriate education to entry-level social workers'. It's paying social workers livable wages such that those already inclined and qualified to do the work don't feel shorted by following their hearts/passions.

My sister has an MSW.  She works as a therapist.  And makes $25,000 less, in a higher COL area, than I do as a paramedic, which doesn’t even require an associates degree in my state.

Obviously I’m not saying that being a paramedic is less important or skillful than being a therapist, and there are good arguments for requiring degrees for paramedics, but if we are looking at return on investment for education someone with a job requiring an MSW should make more than a job requiring a diploma.  
My real takeaway is that society doesn’t really value certain types of jobs and it’s reflected in the pay.

[Ting Tang]

I attended a liberal arts college for my BA.  My degree is in political science and pre-law.  I took a few social work classes.

My graduate degree is in public services management with a concentration in public policy. I learned about government, nonprofits, NGOs, etc.

I ended up working in social services for a nonprofit that contracted with the state government.   I think my ability to analyze and understand bureaucracy, flawed systems, etc.  helped me to help others.  

There is value in higher education. I wish it cost less and certain fields paid better.  

Edited April 6, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

My sister has an MSW.  She works as a therapist.  And makes $25,000 less, in a higher COL area, than I do as a paramedic, which doesn’t even require an associates degree in my state.

Obviously I’m not saying that being a paramedic is less important or skillful than being a therapist, and there are good arguments for requiring degrees for paramedics, but if we are looking at return on investment for education someone with a job requiring an MSW should make more than a job requiring a diploma.  
My real takeaway is that society doesn’t really value certain types of jobs and it’s reflected in the pay.

ITA. Folks say they do, but they really don't, and it shows. People gifted with 'soft' skills that don't use them to generate revenue are red-headed step-children WRT compensation and advancement and yet the work is critical and necessary.  I cannot cheer dumbing down the requirements to get more people who look like/have experiences from communities in need. The truth is, talented kids that come out of these communities have an abundance of opportunities available to them. They can do anything. Keeping the pay artificially low for teachers, social workers, name any other woman-dominated profession, means you're not going to get the best kind of work products because these folks need to be able to pay bills and support themselves and their families. WRT social services, that's, IMO, by design. Until recently, even those willing to stick it out in this sector were denied loan forgiveness. Again, BY DESIGN. There was zero effort to make the promises of public service pay off. Who knows what will happen next. I just know my own kid is considering a career in public service and I'm frantically waiving red flags in the air to no avail. We value public service, in a way few others do. It's likely to result in at least one of my kids being less secure than DH and I and that makes me more angry than sad (hormones?). DD can do anything..engineering, construction management, etc. but she wants to put her life on the line b/c SERVICE is what we do. I was entirely too effective with my messaging/values. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

What undergrad degree is wanted for social work?  I tried finding it at my alma mater in order to see the course list, but there isn't any bachelor's degree category that is obviously about social work.

My state U has a BSW. My county will hire from Psych and Soc degrees as well. They typically don’t come with field training and background on the system though, unless they dabbled with their electives. They’re a bit more general in their curriculum. 
My CC has a social work AA for direct transfer. (But tuition is only a little lower than the state U.)

52 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

My sister has an MSW.  She works as a therapist.  And makes $25,000 less, in a higher COL area, than I do as a paramedic, which doesn’t even require an associates degree in my state.

 

Same. Well, my sister started as a caseworker the went into therapy with the MSW. She does not make much more than my 19yo EMT.  Less, before the M.

[Amy Gen]

So my oldest has a BA in English with minors in both Art and Ancient Greek. She went on to get her masters in Library Science, and is now on the waitlist for a fully funded English PhD program. Y’all say a little prayer that she gets accepted off of the waitlist this week! In the meantime, she is doing okay financially. Her material desires are very, very modest. She is working 3 part time jobs, one is the research that she was doing in her masters program. She did such a good job that they kept her employed after she graduated, she is also doing research for a professor and also assisting a woman who owns a travel magazine. She is so happy with her situation right now. The jobs are interesting and she can buy anything she really needs and she has a great roommate situation. But it took a whole lot of privilege to get her there. Firstly, the privilege of being homeschooled. She has autism and learning disabilities. If she had been left in PS, she would never have even been able to get her AA degree. Then she had parents who could pay for whatever costs were left after her scholarships. Then, she had 2 aunts at her 4 year university who advocated for her to get the accommodations she needed and the professors who were compatible with her neuro divergence. Then, she had an undergraduate roommate who loved her so much, she gave her 6 months free rent for her graduation present for her masters. Then she also had an uncle who gave her a used car when she got her license. I could spin it as a story of the kid no one thought was going to survive making a good life for herself through grit and hard work. The reality is that it is a house of cards and if any one of her financial advantages hadn’t been there, she would be sitting in the wreckage as so many of her peers are. 
 

My middle daughter started out as an English major as well. She also had the benefit of a free car and parents who paid for her 4 year degree. Somewhere along the way, she switched majors to interdisciplinary. Hers is a combination of English, Psychology and Women/Gender Studies. It is difficult to imagine a less lucrative degree. She is currently working for a law office where she helps clients get their disability cases resolved. She makes less per hour than my 15 year old who is a lifeguard/swim instructor. But….she is doing okay because she also has a ton of privilege. As young people sometimes do, she got in her mind that she would only be happy living in one specific city with an extremely high cost of living. Incredibly, I have friends there who offered her a huge attic suite completely free of charge. They also have connections to the university there and are helping her get accepted into the very competitive MSW program there. She is doing pretty well, but not because she is smarter, or more diligent than her peers. She just has a truck load of privilege. 
 

My 15 year old daughter has none of the love of academics that her sisters do. She is all about working smarter, taking shortcuts and relying on her charisma to open doors. She has her university picked out. Even with her lack of academic prowess, she is guaranteed entry into the private school due to family connections. Unless she screws up completely like committing a crime or getting caught cheating, my family will also make sure that she gets a high paying job at the university after she graduates. She has an amazing future mapped out, and I have no doubt she will achieve it all, but not through working harder than her friends. In fact, she does much less school work than they do. It will be because she was born into a family who can pay for her education and buy her a Fiat for her 16th birthday, and provide her with a safety net should anything ever go wrong. She will be successful because of her privilege. 
 

I’m planning to go back to teaching in PS next year to supplement our retirement accounts and to put money away for future grandchildren, if I’m ever lucky enough to have some. 
 

I’d like to help children who don’t have the advantages my kids have to have better options than dead end jobs and debt. I see not just the unfairness but the cruelty of our current system. Other than trying to help the families I come in contact with, I can’t begin to understand the changes that must be made if we want the next generation to have any hope of equatable options and opportunities. 

[Ting Tang]

17 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

So my oldest has a BA in English with minors in both Art and Ancient Greek. She went on to get her masters in Library Science, and is now on the waitlist for a fully funded English PhD program. Y’all say a little prayer that she gets accepted off of the waitlist this week! In the meantime, she is doing okay financially. Her material desires are very, very modest. She is working 3 part time jobs, one is the research that she was doing in her masters program. She did such a good job that they kept her employed after she graduated, she is also doing research for a professor and also assisting a woman who owns a travel magazine. She is so happy with her situation right now. The jobs are interesting and she can buy anything she really needs and she has a great roommate situation. But it took a whole lot of privilege to get her there. Firstly, the privilege of being homeschooled. She has autism and learning disabilities. If she had been left in PS, she would never have even been able to get her AA degree. Then she had parents who could pay for whatever costs were left after her scholarships. Then, she had 2 aunts at her 4 year university who advocated for her to get the accommodations she needed and the professors who were compatible with her neuro divergence. Then, she had an undergraduate roommate who loved her so much, she gave her 6 months free rent for her graduation present for her masters. Then she also had an uncle who gave her a used car when she got her license. I could spin it as a story of the kid no one thought was going to survive making a good life for herself through grit and hard work. The reality is that it is a house of cards and if any one of her financial advantages hadn’t been there, she would be sitting in the wreckage as so many of her peers are. 
 

My middle daughter started out as an English major as well. She also had the benefit of a free car and parents who paid for her 4 year degree. Somewhere along the way, she switched majors to interdisciplinary. Hers is a combination of English, Psychology and Women/Gender Studies. It is difficult to imagine a less lucrative degree. She is currently working for a law office where she helps clients get their disability cases resolved. She makes less per hour than my 15 year old who is a lifeguard/swim instructor. But….she is doing okay because she also has a ton of privilege. As young people sometimes do, she got in her mind that she would only be happy living in one specific city with an extremely high cost of living. Incredibly, I have friends there who offered her a huge attic suite completely free of charge. They also have connections to the university there and are helping her get accepted into the very competitive MSW program there. She is doing pretty well, but not because she is smarter, or more diligent than her peers. She just has a truck load of privilege. 
 

My 15 year old daughter has none of the love of academics that her sisters do. She is all about working smarter, taking shortcuts and relying on her charisma to open doors. She has her university picked out. Even with her lack of academic prowess, she is guaranteed entry into the private school due to family connections. Unless she screws up completely like committing a crime or getting caught cheating, my family will also make sure that she gets a high paying job at the university after she graduates. She has an amazing future mapped out, and I have no doubt she will achieve it all, but not through working harder than her friends. In fact, she does much less school work than they do. It will be because she was born into a family who can pay for her education and buy her a Fiat for her 16th birthday, and provide her with a safety net should anything ever go wrong. She will be successful because of her privilege. 
 

I’m planning to go back to teaching in PS next year to supplement our retirement accounts and to put money away for future grandchildren, if I’m ever lucky enough to have some. 
 

I’d like to help children who don’t have the advantages my kids have to have better options than dead end jobs and debt. I see not just the unfairness but the cruelty of our current system. Other than trying to help the families I come in contact with, I can’t begin to understand the changes that must be made if we want the next generation to have any hope of equatable options and opportunities. 

We live in a terrible school district, and to be honest, there doesn't appear to be much interest in making it academically better.  The school is K-8, and surrounding schools in districts with similar demographics seem to be performing much better. There is no phonics program.  No 8th grade algebra. No foreign language at all.  No art program.  Sports interest people most, from my perspective.  I don't see how these students would be on pace to earn college credits while still in high school, or even test out of certain courses.  When we moved here, things were alright, but it went downhill very fast.  There has been a lot of turnover, and the current principal (who is also the superintendent) has announced his retirement plan (he started in 2016).  There was recently a sports-related scandal there, and well.......   I just understand how some kids do not have the privilege.   We are homeschooling indefinitely, and before I'd return my children to that school, I would prefer a private school first.  When I pointed out the academic issues, the community got very defensive.   It's sad, but there are some people who don't recognize a bad situation.  

[Ting Tang]

On 3/30/2022 at 10:41 AM, skimomma said:

I am about as liberal as they come and I completely understand that a lot of student loans are the result of predatory lending practices and/or shady for-profit schools that don't deliver what they promise.  I get how difficult it is too crawl out from under mountains of debt taken on before one even has a decent income.  I have a college student so I am in the soup.  

But something bugs me about this and I just can't shake it.  I completely see the point for people who were truly taken advantage of.  But it seems super unfair to me that everyone would get their debt erased, essentially punishing the people that *did* pay off their loans.

As you can guess I am one of those people.  Dh and I graduated with the maximum amount of unsubsidized student debt.  At that time, it seemed like a staggering amount.  It made me sick to even think about the number.  (this is going to sound very bootstrappy, do forgive me)  We decided the best course of action was to continue to live like college students and devote all of our extra income to paying off the loans.  We continued to drive our ancient cars, did not vacation, lived in a cheap apartment furnished with hand-me-down furniture, delayed starting a family, etc..... and paid them all off within two years.  Then started to live like proper working adults.  I know many MANY people who make far more than we do that are still paying on their student loans (25+ years later) but have plenty of discretionary cash to spend on non-essentials.  It bugs me that they might get to walk away from their debt.

And it also bugs me that dd limited her college choices based on what she/we could afford to minimize student debt while watching some of her friends go to their dream schools, taking on unfathomable amounts of debt, that might just be erased.

I would love to understand this better and feel less resentful about it.  

I have loans through Navient.  Had I have defaulted, they could have been erased.  I have faithfully paid, so guess what, I get to keep paying!  I guess they feel they didn't "get me" in their scheme since I pay, lol.  I understand what you are saying.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  

[Murphy101]

26 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

 Sports interest people most, from my perspective.  I don't see how these students would be on pace to earn college credits while still in high school, or even test out of certain courses.  

Ding ding ding! Same here. Sports are religion here. We have not really been the Bible Belt in my life here. It’s the football belt.  Sports trumps everything else. Faith and reason come a distant second to sports here.

[ktgrok]

32 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I have loans through Navient.  Had I have defaulted, they could have been erased.  I have faithfully paid, so guess what, I get to keep paying!  I guess they feel they didn't "get me" in their scheme since I pay, lol.  I understand what you are saying.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  

Yup, that's who DH's private loans are with. He attended a virtual meeting held by a non profit associated with I think Yale Law School about loan forgiveness for people with Navient Loans, and is planning to apply. 

[Ting Tang]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Ding ding ding! Same here. Sports are religion here. We have not really been the Bible Belt in my life here. It’s the football belt.  Sports trumps everything else. Faith and reason come a distant second to sports here.

Yep!  And I know it is important for kids to have things to do, but not everyone is an athlete.  And I think a quality education should come first.   I'm grateful I am able to homeschool.  There are a few parents around here who've pulled children from that school.  So a few care.  The rest are content with the status quo.

[Ting Tang]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Yup, that's who DH's private loans are with. He attended a virtual meeting held by a non profit associated with I think Yale Law School about loan forgiveness for people with Navient Loans, and is planning to apply. 

The articles made it seem as though I wouldn't qualify because I have always paid.  My other loans have long been paid off.  I can't seem to get rid of the Navient ones, lol.  I even pay extra.  They like me and want to keep me?  lol  I am going to do another search. It has been a bit since that news hit...

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

The articles made it seem as though I wouldn't qualify because I have always paid.  My other loans have long been paid off.  I can't seem to get rid of the Navient ones, lol.  I even pay extra.  They like me and want to keep me?  lol  I am going to do another search. It has been a bit since that news hit...

Hmm.. DH did do a forbearance for a while at once time, I wonder if that is why he might qualify - part of the issue they got in trouble for was putting people into forbearance (with interest adding up) rather than changing to different payment plans that the person could afford, if I'm remembering right. 

[Murphy101]

26 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Yep!  And I know it is important for kids to have things to do, but not everyone is an athlete.  And I think a quality education should come first.   I'm grateful I am able to homeschool.  There are a few parents around here who've pulled children from that school.  So a few care.  The rest are content with the status quo.

I’m always confused when people say kids need things to do so sports are a must. I’ve never played a sport in my life and here I am a kid who always had something to do and an adult who still always has something to do. Same for every one of my kids, sports or not. 

[Ting Tang]

58 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Hmm.. DH did do a forbearance for a while at once time, I wonder if that is why he might qualify - part of the issue they got in trouble for was putting people into forbearance (with interest adding up) rather than changing to different payment plans that the person could afford, if I'm remembering right. 

That could be and would make sense.  I will still look into it.  The fluctuating interest rates are just so bad with these types of loans.

 

[Ting Tang]

49 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m always confused when people say kids need things to do so sports are a must. I’ve never played a sport in my life and here I am a kid who always had something to do and an adult who still always has something to do. Same for every one of my kids, sports or not. 

Well, those people mean sports are the most important thing for kids to have to do.  The school purchased a bunch of new balls for the kids this year.  Nevermind the very light and hard-to-read photocopied mini books they give to the 1st graders...  Nothing to see there.  Literally!  

 

[Murphy101]

Just now, Ting Tang said:

Well, those people mean sports are the most important thing for kids to have to do.  The school purchased a bunch of new balls for the kids this year.  Nevermind the very light and hard-to-read photocopied mini books they give to the 1st graders...  Nothing to see there.  Literally!  

 

Right? The same people that will complain about how expensive school supplies for the year are won’t think anything of spending triple that for their kid to play a sport. Chaps my hide. 

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m always confused when people say kids need things to do so sports are a must. I’ve never played a sport in my life and here I am a kid who always had something to do and an adult who still always has something to do. Same for every one of my kids, sports or not. 

If done right, I think they can be a valuable part of a well rounded education. My high school was small enough that there were no cuts, so anyone who wanted to be on a sports team could be. About 25% of the school ran cross country, for example, with only one coach and joint practices for boys and girls. Our JV team didn’t always have the same uniforms or warmups and we all shared a big box of cleats, but it was fun and healthy to be part of a team and get daily exercise. During the spring I was on the tennis team and ran track at the same time because our coaches were laid back enough to be ok with it.

Personally, I don’t think public schools should have sports unless they have enough teams (JV, freshman, etc) for everyone who wants to participate. I don’t think we should be using tax dollars to provide only an elite few with lots of resources to do sports.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

If done right, I think they can be a valuable part of a well rounded education. My high school was small enough that there were no cuts, so anyone who wanted to be on a sports team could be. About 25% of the school ran cross country, for example, with only one coach and joint practices for boys and girls. Our JV team didn’t always have the same uniforms or warmups and we all shared a big box of cleats, but it was fun and healthy to be part of a team and get daily exercise. During the spring I was on the tennis team and ran track at the same time because our coaches were laid back enough to be ok with it.

Personally, I don’t think public schools should have sports unless they have enough teams (JV, freshman, etc) for everyone who wants to participate. I don’t think we should be using tax dollars to provide only an elite few with lots of resources to do sports.

This. I actually don’t care if kids do sports.  We ice skate and scuba dive. It’s not that I see no value to having whatever extracurricular interests they have. But I don’t think it should be school sponsored with taxes unless it’s a format that every student, regardless of grades and skill can access. It’s not here. Only an elite few can fill the spots and it’s very competitive and becomes all-consuming.  Especially by high school.  

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Right? The same people that will complain about how expensive school supplies for the year are won’t think anything of spending triple that for their kid to play a sport. Chaps my hide. 

I also believe the primary function of a public school is to educate, not turn out star athletes.  My children have their interests, too, but we fund them.  I have family who spent a lot of money on their kids' sports and dance, and it hasn't helped much with getting them onto the public high school teams.  It is super exclusive.   But our school is failing academically.  I don't care who can run fast or shoot a hoop when I basically feel homeschooling is no longer a choice for us---it's a must, despite paying plenty in property taxes.

[Janeway]

The only loans being talked about forgiving are ones that were awarded based on need. I think I also read that it’s for people who had their loans a few decades ago. There were a lot of colleges preying on a lot of people.  Even now I see it. Colleges that say they meet need and then all of a sudden he get this letter saying that you’re being offered a parent loan for some ginormous amount. i’ve seen people take out loans to go into public service field but then The loan forgiveness never happened that they were told that they would have that would actually fund them in the end. My opinion, anyone who took out their loans more than a few decades ago and they’re still paying on them should probably have them forgiven by now. In a day and age when everyone is expected to go to college and high schools are pushing college on every student, I think college needs to be more affordable. 

[Janeway]

You know in response to the whole it’s not fair bit, there’s a lot that’s not fair. Families that are divorced can pick the lowest earning parent and only declare that income if they want. I’ve watch some kids whose parents were pretty well off get pell grants to college. There are kids from well doing families they get race based funding to state schools. Meanwhile the in-state students like farmers cannot afford to send their kids to college because the college is taken to consideration the value of the farm. so there is a lot that’s not fair and if student loan forgiveness helps out the little guy just a little bit in this big giant world of unfairness, then I’m fine with it.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Janeway

[KidsHappen]

On 4/7/2022 at 1:20 PM, ktgrok said:

Hmm.. DH did do a forbearance for a while at once time, I wonder if that is why he might qualify - part of the issue they got in trouble for was putting people into forbearance (with interest adding up) rather than changing to different payment plans that the person could afford, if I'm remembering right. 

That's what happened to us. They would say for instance that we had to pay $500 a month and we would say well we can't afford that how about we pay $200 a month until we can afford more and they would say no your only option is either forbearance or deferral and then they would charge interest that whole time which they also would not let us pay but instead added to the principal and then would charge interest on that part as well. Of course this raised the amount we owed and therefore the payment amount so that it created a cycle for a while where we could never quite make the payment that they wanted but they were always glad to continue the cycle. They told us this was our only option and it was only later that we found out that was not the case. But we have never found a way to redress this.