Student Loan Forgiveness

[Ting Tang]

On 4/7/2022 at 8:33 PM, Janeway said:

You know in response to the whole it’s not fair bit, there’s a lot that’s not fair. Families that are divorced can pick the lowest earning parent and only declare that income if they want. I’ve watch some kids whose parents were pretty well off get pell grants to college. There are kids from well doing families they get race based funding to state schools. Meanwhile the in-state students like farmers cannot afford to send their kids to college because the college is taken to consideration the value of the farm. so there is a lot that’s not fair and if student loan forgiveness helps out the little guy just a little bit in this big giant world of unfairness, then I’m fine with it.

My husband's family had that trouble with being a farm family, but he and his sister were pretty good students, so they did get scholarships.  You are right, in many communities college is really pushed.  Not in mine, and it shows because now I have to homeschool my children to ensure they will be on the right path to go to college if they'd like to do so.  As for the unfairness, well, I think there needs to be discussion on bringing down the cost and controlling it.  I don't want to sound like a communist or anything, but I think college tuition is crazy.  I am glad I was able to go, but had I not have married, I'd still be struggling.  😞  

[ktgrok]

18 minutes ago, KidsHappen said:

That's what happened to us. They would say for instance that we had to pay $500 a month and we would say well we can't afford that how about we pay $200 a month until we can afford more and they would say no your only option is either forbearance or deferral and then they would charge interest that whole time which they also would not let us pay but instead added to the principal and then would charge interest on that part as well. Of course this raised the amount we owed and therefore the payment amount so that it created a cycle for a while where we could never quite make the payment that they wanted but they were always glad to continue the cycle. They told us this was our only option and it was only later that we found out that was not the case. But we have never found a way to redress this. 

I know this was part of why Navient is being prosecuted, at least I think that is what is going on. The DID have other options, but lied and said there were not to get the people owing more. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

My husband's family had that trouble with being a farm family, but he and his sister were pretty good students, so they did get scholarships.  You are right, in many communities college is really pushed.  Not in mine, and it shows because now I have to homeschool my children to ensure they will be on the right path to go to college if they'd like to do so.  As for the unfairness, well, I think there needs to be discussion on bringing down the cost and controlling it.  I don't want to sound like a communist or anything, but I think college tuition is crazy.  I am glad I was able to go, but had I not have married, I'd still be struggling.  😞  

Most countries with reasonable college costs are not communist countries.

[shawthorne44]

On 4/5/2022 at 3:07 PM, Jenny in Florida said:

Except that the primary purpose of going to college isn't (or, in my humble opinion, should not be) job training or to lock in a specific salary. The purpose of attending college is to obtain education. Many people find that having a solid, broad-based education helps them succeed in their chosen careers (and have the knowledge and skills necessary to adapt and change careers throughout their lives).

But, someone doesn't need Loans to get a good education.  You can get an MIT education entirely online.   Others too, but is the one that interested me.   Last I looked (years ago) it was free.    You can even self-study, and you can continue to do that.    I'd put my self-study education over the last 5 years up against anyone not currently in college.  You can even contact professors with questions.    I've found them to be extremely helpful even to a random stranger like me.   A question that might seem to be brown-nosing from a student is answered eagerly and at great length when it comes from a stranger who is therefore genuinely interested in their favorite topics.  You can sit in on lectures if you need the room full of people to learn.   You can't take tests, or get credit of course.     It is the course credits that you pay through the nose for.  It is those course credits that give you the credentials you need for employment.   

Edited April 13, 2022 by shawthorne44

[ktgrok]

Doing our taxes, and we paid over 14K just in interest this past year. 

[mommyoffive]

Millions closer to student debt forgiveness under new Biden administration changes (msn.com)

[Sneezyone]

22 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Millions closer to student debt forgiveness under new Biden administration changes (msn.com)

Love this!!!

[LucyStoner]

I’m all for helping low income borrowers.  I’m all for public service loan forgiveness for those who put their professional skills to work in the public interest at a reduced salary level for an extended period of time.  I’m all for helping those who were taken in by predatory practices of for profit schools.  I think student loan interest should be very low.  

But despite being very liberal, I am not for either blanket student loan forgiveness or entirely free college.  

It’s a massive resource transfer to people affluent enough and with sufficient Executive Functioning skills to be able to attend college and finish one or more degrees.  

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

47 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I’m all for helping low income borrowers.  I’m all for public service loan forgiveness for those who put their professional skills to work in the public interest at a reduced salary level for an extended period of time.  I’m all for helping those who were taken in by predatory practices of for profit schools.  I think student loan interest should be very low.  

But despite being very liberal, I am not for either blanket student loan forgiveness or entirely free college.  

It’s a massive resource transfer to people affluent enough and with sufficient Executive Functioning skills to be able to attend college and finish one or more degrees.  

 

Its not really transferring resources to them, as much as letting them keep resources. 

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Its not really transferring resources to them, as much as letting them keep resources. 

The money for the payoff/forgiveness *comes from* somewhere.  It doesn’t fall from the sky like manna. 

Why are college students and graduates household balance sheets more important than the wide array of unmet human needs in this country?  

I know that blanket forgiveness that is need blind is unlikely so I’m not overly worried about it but personally, most of the people I personally know talking about “erase all student debt” aren’t really considering the needs of people who are getting by without a degree and far fewer options. Many of them don’t regularly encounter people who don’t have a degree in their personal lives unless that person is providing them a service.  
 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

I’m all for helping low income borrowers.  I’m all for public service loan forgiveness for those who put their professional skills to work in the public interest at a reduced salary level for an extended period of time.  I’m all for helping those who were taken in by predatory practices of for profit schools.  I think student loan interest should be very low.  

But despite being very liberal, I am not for either blanket student loan forgiveness or entirely free college.  

It’s a massive resource transfer to people affluent enough and with sufficient Executive Functioning skills to be able to attend college and finish one or more degrees.  

 

The current iteration of the PSLF doesn't count any public service work done before October 2007. The dissolution of bankruptcy as a mechanism for discharging/restructuring student loan debt for impoverished borrowers ended in the late 80s. There are, literally, millions of borrowers who fall within that hole, most of whom have been paying for over 10 years while being steered into repayment plans that benefited the servicer and not the borrower or taxpayer. Those still caught in this doughnut hole aren't wealthy. By and large, they were poor when they were students and had higher personal borrowing limits as a result. There are, in fact, a lot of debt-free non-college grads in better fiscal positions than those who do have degrees as a result. If you make $35/hr with a degree and debt but but Amazon hires at $24/hr, who's getting ahead? 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Bootsie]

22 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Its not really transferring resources to them, as much as letting them keep resources. 

Loan forgiveness is letting them keep resources they BORROWED from someone else.  

[LucyStoner]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The current iteration of the PSLF doesn't count any public service work done before October 2007. The dissolution of bankruptcy as a mechanism for discharging/restructuring student loan debt ended in the late 80s. There are, literally, millions of borrowers who fall within that hole, most of whom have been paying for over 10 years while being steered into repayment plans that benefited the servicer and not the borrower or taxpayer. Those still caught in this doughnut hole aren't wealthy. By and large, they were poor when they were students and had higher personal borrowing limits as a result. 

I am well aware, having taken out student loans prior to 2007 and seeing many family members and friends do the same.  That said, I don’t think that calls to erase all debt for all borrowers without regards to their ability to pay is equitable.  

Most low income student loan holders have total debt under $25K- the median outstanding balance was about $17K for all borrowers.  The average is about twice that.  It’s a relatively small number with outstanding balances that exceed $100K.  

My mother, talented and brilliant but poor AF,  didn’t finish the 6th grade.  I’m the first high school graduate in her family.  At this point, there are three total high school grads and 2 college grads in her family.  I was accepted to a school that I could have racked up $$$ loans at.  I had zero way to parse what would be best for financing college.  I went to a public school instead for a lot of reasons.  My opinion would be the same if I personally owed $20k or $200k in student loans: there are things I would like to see be a bigger priority in federal spending than erasing any and all debt.  Because the people in my family who didn’t graduate from high school or college?  Need help a heck of a lot more than I do in very real ways.  

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by LucyStoner

[Carrie12345]

4 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

The money for the payoff/forgiveness *comes from* somewhere.  It doesn’t fall from the sky like manna. 

Why are college students and graduates household balance sheets more important than the wide array of unmet human needs in this country?  

I know that blanket forgiveness that is need blind is unlikely so I’m not overly worried about it but personally, most of the people I personally know talking about “erase all student debt” aren’t really considering the needs of people who are getting by without a degree and far fewer options. Many of them don’t regularly encounter people who don’t have a degree in their personal lives unless that person is providing them a service.  
 

I disagree. I DO feel people are concerned for the needs of people without a degree; it’s just less likely to be mentioned directly in a conversation specific to the loans from degrees. I’m confident that I’ve seen most of the regular posters I “know” discuss those issues in conversations about those issues.

42% of the US population over 25 have college degrees. I don’t know that I can buy into the idea that “many” people don’t encounter the other 52% in their regular lives here.  Some, in super insulated areas, maybe.

A LOT of us argue for  multi-pronged approaches to meeting basic needs and improving economic stability. Even in this thread. But, yeah, it has focused primarily on the topic given.

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

The money for the payoff/forgiveness *comes from* somewhere.  It doesn’t fall from the sky like manna. 

 

If it is the government that made the loan, and the loan is forgiven, that people were already paying it back with interest, it is less that money comes from somewhere and more that a source of income is removed. 

But in general, if the person that made the loan is the one forgiving the loan, no, money doesn't come from anywhere. It was already gone. If I lend my kid $50, and then say they don't have to pay it back, money doesn't come from somewhere to repay me - I just don't get the money back. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by ktgrok

[LucyStoner]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

If it is the government that made the loan, and the loan is forgiven, that people were already paying it back with interest, it is less that money comes from somewhere and more that a source of income is removed. 

But in general, if the person that made the loan is the one forgiving the loan, no, money doesn't come from anywhere. It was already gone. If I lend my kid $50, and then say they don't have to pay it back, money doesn't come from somewhere to repay me - I just don't get the money back. 

The government in most cases didn’t make the loan.  They guaranteed the loan.  Student loan forgiveness doesn’t erase the debt- it means that the federal government pays off those loans.  

Even if the federal government was erasing loans the federal govemebt held, the money still comes from somewhere.  If I loan my brother $100 and he doesn’t pay me back, I don’t have that $100 to pay my light bill or whatever.  So I have to earn an extra $100 or shift that money from another line of my budget.  This is why I only give my brother $100 if I can afford to gift it.  I don’t think that the federal government can afford to gift all the money that is currently held in student loan balances.  

Further, a lot of student borrowers with the largest balances don’t have federally backed loans because they had to go into the private lending market to exceed the federal limits.  Yet those loans are still not dischargeable in bankruptcy- which is a huge problem and one of the reasons we got into this mess in the first place.  This also directly contributed to skyrocketing tuition.  

Don’t get me wrong.  I feel for borrowers (including myself).  I do think that there’s a way to right the system a bit.  I don’t think that low income borrowers should be paying their loans before they feed themselves or figure out a way to own a home.  I just think it’s more complex than “erase all student debt” and that there are significant equity issues wrapped up in the idea of doing so.  

[LucyStoner]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

42% of the US population over 25 have college degrees. I don’t know that I can buy into the idea that “many” people don’t encounter the other 52% in their regular lives here.  Some, in super insulated areas, maybe.

I was speaking about a number of people I know who think this is their biggest issue.  And no; these people do not regularly interact with people in a personal way who do not have a college degree.  While nearly 6/10 Americans do not have a college degree, there are definitely places where the figure is much lower than that and the social divisions are such that people stay in their bubbles.  I suspect based on what I have read that this pattern plays out in other large metropolitan areas where there is a lot of social stratification, even if people want to pretend it’s not there.  I used to work for a non-profit that conducted various workshops and exercises around class with donors.  One of the parts of the workshop was counting the people that you knew well and personally who didn’t have a college degree.  The results were illuminating every single time that question was asked.  People would routinely mention their household employees, their grocery checker, their favorite bus driver.  Contrary to what an affluent person thinks, their nanny is probably not their personal friend and the nanny was the most likely person for them to have any social contact with outside of the service being performed.  

Most of my neighbors are working class and don’t have a degree.  That is atypical for my area. Two blocks over, different story.  To be clear:  they *encounter* them but they don’t commonly have contract with them outside of the times that they are using a service or buying something.  It’s a social bubble.  

Edited April 20, 2022 by LucyStoner

[SKL]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

If it is the government that made the loan, and the loan is forgiven, that people were already paying it back with interest, it is less that money comes from somewhere and more that a source of income is removed. 

But in general, if the person that made the loan is the one forgiving the loan, no, money doesn't come from anywhere. It was already gone. If I lend my kid $50, and then say they don't have to pay it back, money doesn't come from somewhere to repay me - I just don't get the money back. 

Well it is $50 less that you have for other things, such as helping your less-educated children, taking care of your health needs, feeding homeless people.  Similar concept whether macro or micro.

Is it fair if you have 2 kids and you've given one kid $100k for education and told the other kid to go pound salt and work for minimum wage?

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

If it is the government that made the loan, and the loan is forgiven, that people were already paying it back with interest, it is less that money comes from somewhere and more that a source of income is removed. 

But in general, if the person that made the loan is the one forgiving the loan, no, money doesn't come from anywhere. It was already gone. If I lend my kid $50, and then say they don't have to pay it back, money doesn't come from somewhere to repay me - I just don't get the money back. 

The money that the government would be loaning comes from somewhere.  The only way the US government can lend me $10,000 is for the US government to borrow $10,000 (The US government has massive debt; it is not spending money out of a pot that it has stashed away).  If my loan is forgiven and I do not pay the US government back, the US government still must pay the person back that it borrowed the $10,000 from.  Where does the government get that money to pay its lender back?  It must come from somewhere.  (Increasingly the answer to where it is coming from is tax obligations of future generations.)

If you have $50 you lend to your child and then forgive the loan, you gave your child a gift.  If you did not have $50 of your own money, but had to borrow $50 make the loan to your child, and then the child did not pay you back, you will still need to pay the person who loaned you the $50 back--where would that money come from?  

[SKL]

11 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I’m all for helping low income borrowers.  I’m all for public service loan forgiveness for those who put their professional skills to work in the public interest at a reduced salary level for an extended period of time.  I’m all for helping those who were taken in by predatory practices of for profit schools.  I think student loan interest should be very low.  

But despite being very liberal, I am not for either blanket student loan forgiveness or entirely free college.  

It’s a massive resource transfer to people affluent enough and with sufficient Executive Functioning skills to be able to attend college and finish one or more degrees.  

 

I agree.

For people with the ability to finish college and get and keep a job, the earning potential far outweighs the cost of conventional student loans after maybe 10-15 years, which is a small fraction of one's working life.

My mantra as a student and while in repayment was all about delayed gratification.  It is a thing.  More people should try it IMO.

I think it's immoral to enact a wealth transfer that benefits people who are already destined for relative financial success.

Fraud is a different story.  It should be prosecuted, and maybe people who have paid way too much "interest" should get some of that back from the fraudsters.  But most student loans were not fraudulent.  Adults signed a promise to pay back with interest.

The cost of higher education in the US is too high, but the long-term benefits of education at a state university are still positive.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Well it is $50 less that you have for other things, such as helping your less-educated children, taking care of your health needs, feeding homeless people.  Similar concept whether macro or micro.

Is it fair if you have 2 kids and you've given one kid $100k for education and told the other kid to go pound salt and work for minimum wage?

Well, you could tell the other kid they can have 100 worth of education too. 

But really, I'm just cranky right now about other stuff, and about how much we've spent on the dang interest. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by ktgrok

[teachermom2834]

Reforms, yes. Lower interest, capped interest, bankruptcy reform though I don’t know how that would work. 
 

But the people in my life I am most aware of having student loan debt really don’t need this. It would be great. It would help get further ahead. But they aren’t being crippled by them or having their lives ruined or any such thing. 
 

So many people I know haven’t had the opportunities my dh and I and my kids have had. If we get our loans forgiven I won’t tell a soul. I’ll be embarrassed. I’ll take it because of course I will and it won’t solve any societal problems if I don’t. But I promise you in my corner of the world this policy looks anything but progressive.

The people I have known who have had lives ruined by student loans had private loans and this won’t help them anyways. So again, this doesn’t feel right at all even if it helps me and mine. 

[Clarita]

8 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I was speaking about a number of people I know who think this is their biggest issue.  And no; these people do not regularly interact with people in a personal way who do not have a college degree.  While nearly 6/10 Americans do not have a college degree, there are definitely places where the figure is much lower than that and the social divisions are such that people stay in their bubbles.  I suspect based on what I have read that this pattern plays out in other large metropolitan areas where there is a lot of social stratification, even if people want to pretend it’s not there.  I used to work for a non-profit that conducted various workshops and exercises around class with donors.  One of the parts of the workshop was counting the people that you knew well and personally who didn’t have a college degree.  The results were illuminating every single time that question was asked.  People would routinely mention their household employees, their grocery checker, their favorite bus driver.  Contrary to what an affluent person thinks, their nanny is probably not their personal friend and the nanny was the most likely person for them to have any social contact with outside of the service being performed.  

Most of my neighbors are working class and don’t have a degree.  That is atypical for my area. Two blocks over, different story.  To be clear:  they *encounter* them but they don’t commonly have contract with them outside of the times that they are using a service or buying something.  It’s a social bubble.  

I absolutely vouch for this. It opened my eyes when I joined the city tee-ball league. In casual conversation the question was asked of everyone "Where did you go to school?" Unfortunately, my husband and I were the first ones in line to answer. We answered with the universities we went to, everyone else stated their high school. They were very nice and allowed us to change our answer. 

 It made me realize in most of my circles of friends (except this one) college/university was the norm and not was the exception. Even though in other measures (politics, race, economics) those friend groups are diverse.

[Bootsie]

8 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Well, you could tell the other kid they can have 100 worth of education too. 

But really, I'm just cranky right now about other stuff, and about how much we've spent on the dang interest. 

You can only tell the other kid that they can have 100 worth of education too if you have another $100. 

Unless you have a bottomless pot of $100 bills, each time you tell one child they can have $100 from the pot, it is $100 that can't be spent on (or given to) someone else.

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, Clarita said:

I absolutely vouch for this. It opened my eyes when I joined the city tee-ball league. In casual conversation the question was asked of everyone "Where did you go to school?" Unfortunately, my husband and I were the first ones in line to answer. We answered with the universities we went to, everyone else stated their high school. They were very nice and allowed us to change our answer. 

 It made me realize in most of my circles of friends (except this one) college/university was the norm and not was the exception. Even though in other measures (politics, race, economics) those friend groups are diverse.

I have had the opposite experience.  DH and I both have PhDs and are college professors, so most of the people we work with on a day-to-day basis have college degrees.  However, my lifelong best friend does not have a college degree; neither does her husband, or her two grown children.  The best couple friend DH and I have--the husband has a college degree, but the wife does not.  My best adult friend, raising children together, did not go to college.  DH and I only have one nephew--who is 30 and he did not go to college.  Of my 11 cousins, 6 did not go to college.  Of my husband's 6 cousins, 3 did not go to college.  I have owned four different homes (in three different towns), and in each case, at least one next door neighbor did not go to college.  

[ktgrok]

26 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

You can only tell the other kid that they can have 100 worth of education too if you have another $100. 

Unless you have a bottomless pot of $100 bills, each time you tell one child they can have $100 from the pot, it is $100 that can't be spent on (or given to) someone else.

Obviously.

But that could be said of a lot of things the government spends money on. 

[Bootsie]

10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Obviously.

But that could be said of a lot of things the government spends money on. 

Yes, it could, and should be said about everything the government spends money on.  This is a major issue.   The US government has borrowed and spent $29,617,215,000,000--almost $30 trillion!  Each of those $100 bills has to be repaid by future taxpayers.  I think we have a moral obligation to our children and grandchildren not to spend more and more $100 bills that they will have to one day repay.  

[LucyStoner]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:15 PM, Frances said:

If done right, I think they can be a valuable part of a well rounded education. My high school was small enough that there were no cuts, so anyone who wanted to be on a sports team could be. About 25% of the school ran cross country, for example, with only one coach and joint practices for boys and girls. Our JV team didn’t always have the same uniforms or warmups and we all shared a big box of cleats, but it was fun and healthy to be part of a team and get daily exercise. During the spring I was on the tennis team and ran track at the same time because our coaches were laid back enough to be ok with it.

Personally, I don’t think public schools should have sports unless they have enough teams (JV, freshman, etc) for everyone who wants to participate. I don’t think we should be using tax dollars to provide only an elite few with lots of resources to do sports.

Frankly, my older son (who is autistic and has social anxiety) has learned more valuable soft skills from joining a sports team as a senior than he did in the rest of his time in high school  + he realized how important exercise is to his mental health.  If I have any regrets about his time in high school it’s that I didn’t sign him up for a sport or other intense physical activity from the beginning.  While there were other factors (hello, COVID), he had major mental health crisis in high school that almost completely derailed him from being able to graduate.  I am all about sports in schools, especially no cut sports and sports that it is practicable to start at anytime.  I’m not altogether sure my older son would be graduating this year if he wasn’t rowing.  

When I think back on my own childhood, I credit my involvement in sports and the lessons I learned while playing softball until I graduated as being a significant part of the reason I even did graduate.  As a first generation high school graduate on one side of my family, finishing high school and college completely altered the arc of my life.  Neither of my brothers graduated high school.  I definitely don’t idolize sports but I do think the role they play, especially for some kids, is one that is substantial and not at all unrelated to academic success.  

[Ting Tang]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:01 PM, Frances said:

Most countries with reasonable college costs are not communist countries.

And in communist countries, the wages and prices are set by the government, so I know that’s not the complete answer about controlling/bringing down the costs as I suggested. I’ll put you back on my ignore list. I’m not sure why you like to specifically pick apart my comments and get people to laugh at me on this forum. It’s the second time it’s happened. I guess because there’s more anonymity here. If I’m rude by accident, I apologize. I think you are deliberate. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Lillyfee]

This is one big thing why I would never give up my German citizenship so that my kids can stay dual citizen forever and why I push hard that they speak it well. So they can go to college for free if they can't afford it here in the US.

I still hope and believe that affordable college will come here soon, too. Education is the biggest power a country has and can not depend on how rich your family is. It is a right and would give so many people more hope for their future. 

The costs here are ridiculous.  We paid of my husband's student loan for 5 years after we got married.

My husband sister is almost done with medical school and so far in depth that it is sad.

This is not a normal system, paying so much money for college is unique to here (I think) and in my opinion not right.

 

 

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

This is not a normal system, paying so much money for college is unique to here (I think) and in my opinion not right

It is REALLY hard to convince Americans that something can be good “just” because it works nearly everywhere else. We are unique, special snowflakes who can’t possibly thrive with tried and true methods; we must perform our own trial and errors and then just live with the errors forever to cut off our nose in spite of our face. 😝

[Lillyfee]

There is really so much I love about the US but the cost for college and health care/health insurance is really a big thing for me I can't wrap my head around.

Right now we live in a little social bubble due to my husband being in the military and I honestly hope so much that these two things will change for the next generation.

 

[shawthorne44]

It didn't used to be that bad here.  I went to a big state U and my tuition, books, fees were around $1500/semester.   Even that, I thought was a struggle.  
Then every time financial aid increased, so did the price.  

[Bootsie]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

It is REALLY hard to convince Americans that something can be good “just” because it works nearly everywhere else. We are unique, special snowflakes who can’t possibly thrive with tried and true methods; we must perform our own trial and errors and then just live with the errors forever to cut off our nose in spite of our face. 😝

What is the evidence that it "works" nearly everywhere else? 48% of those in the US between 25 and 64 years of age have a post-secondary degree.  The OECD average is only 38%.  COE - International Educational Attainment  If the goal is to have a high percentage of the population accessing post-secondary education, that is happening more in the US than most other countries.  

[BlsdMama]

12 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

This is one big thing why I would never give up my German citizenship so that my kids can stay dual citizen forever and why I push hard that they speak it well. So they can go to college for free if they can't afford it here in the US.

I still hope and believe that affordable college will come here soon, too. Education is the biggest power a country has and can not depend on how rich your family is. It is a right and would give so many people more hope for their future. 

The costs here are ridiculous.  We paid of my husband's student loan for 5 years after we got married.

My husband sister is almost done with medical school and so far in depth that it is sad.

This is not a normal system, paying so much money for college is unique to here (I think) and in my opinion not right.

 

 

Medical school is incredible debt.  However, I wonder, would he make the equivalent of $250k+ US in Europe?

[Lillyfee]

I don't know how much they make. I assume less as the wages tend to be lower in most professions but the cost of living are also lower there. The only exception is teachers which are very well paid in Germany conpared to here. But other jobs like nurses are better off in the US for sure.

 

 

 

 

[Bootsie]

28 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

I don't know how much they make. I assume less as the wages tend to be lower in most professions but the cost of living are also lower there. The only exception is teachers which are very well paid in Germany conpared to here. But other jobs like nurses are better off in the US for sure.

 

 

 

 

How much are teachers in Germany paid?  From every thing I see, it appears to be about $48,000 per year.  

[catz]

I don't think it's completely fair to compare EU salaries to US salaries without pulling a lot of relevant data.  They have a lot more social safety nets - they don't have student loans, have healthcare, etc. 

[Lillyfee]

You can not compare one to one without considering the cost of living, wages of other professions and the strong social network (health insurance without co pay, retirement, long paid maternity leave ....)

The life quality of a teacher is very high for sure.  They are considered well situated and it's one of the higher paid jobs.

Here is a short article

https://www.alumniportal-deutschland.org/en/career/teachers-salaries-teacher-educator-remuneration#:~:text=Based on the OECD country,depends on the teacher's degree.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Lillyfee

[Bootsie]

5 hours ago, Lillyfee said:

You can not compare one to one without considering the cost of living, wages of other professions and the strong social network (health insurance without co pay, retirement, long paid maternity leave ....)

The life quality of a teacher is very high for sure.  They are considered well situated and it's one of the higher paid jobs.

Here is a short article

https://www.alumniportal-deutschland.org/en/career/teachers-salaries-teacher-educator-remuneration#:~:text=Based on the OECD country,depends on the teacher's degree.

This article says that starting salary in Germany is about $46,000 and the max is $61,000.  It also states that teachers in Germany put in more hours and tend to have more students and a heavier workload than their counterparts in other countries.  I know that teacher's salaries vary a lot across the US, but many sources report the average at about $61,000.

To compare the lifestyle those wages would buy would require looking at the cost of living, benefits, taxes, and other items, but I cannot see that teachers in Germany are paid well compared to the US.  

[Lillyfee]

Well, I know teachers in my family from both countries and the comparison gives me a clear picture.

The Texas side of my family has several teachers and my German side as well. 

If you compare other professions you will find that most jobs make more on paper in the US.

If you look at my husband's salary compared to civilian jobs it looks like he makes less. If you calculate our securities (housing, basically free health care, retirement etc) it is definitely worth to stay in.

Like I said,  not everything is bad in the US and good in Germany or the other way around. Like I said before the nurses in Germany get paid nothing compared to here and it's a big problem. 

The teachers here are less respected and are not even middle class in many cases while in Germany they are upper middle class jobs.

You do not need to believe me but it would be good to look further than the bare numbers. I just see both sides and this is one job you are better of in most European countries.

This is a little overview of costs of living

https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-in-germany/

Edited April 24, 2022 by Lillyfee

[Frances]

29 minutes ago, Lillyfee said:

Well, I know teachers in my family from both countries and the comparison gives me a clear picture.

The Texas side of my family has several teachers and my German side as well. 

If you compare other professions you will find that most jobs make more on paper in the US.

If you look at my husband's salary compared to civilian jobs it looks like he makes less. If you calculate our securities (housing, basically free health care, retirement etc) it is definitely worth to stay in.

Like I said,  not everything is bad in the US and good in Germany or the other way around. Like I said before the nurses in Germany get paid nothing compared to here and it's a big problem. 

The teachers here are less respected and are not even middle class in many cases while in Germany they are upper middle class jobs.

You do not need to believe me but it would be good to look further than the bare numbers. I just see both sides and this is one job you are better of in most European countries.

This is a little overview of costs of living

https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-in-germany/

I’m curious if it’s competitive to go into teaching in Germany like it is in some other European countries? That could definitely account for relative pay and status differentials between the US and Germany.
 

I know when my son lived in Germany, he was constantly surprised by people’s reaction to the fact that he was studying chemistry, as they assumed it was highly selective as in Germany. I don’t think they realized that in the US, anyone can go to any college they are admitted to and declare a chemistry major (with the exception of universities that admit to specific majors). It doesn’t mean they will succeed in completing the major, but there really is no barrier to admittance.

[Lillyfee]

That is another thing. You need to be really good at school to study (teacher. Doctor...)

To become a vet for example you need a numerus clausus of like 1 which basically means all As. So it is free but not everyone makes it.

Our school system is different. At 4th grade you decide what your kid can do. Does is go to basic school for 9 years and usually learns a job for 3 years after that as like cook, hairdresser or carpenter etc (3 years work with 2 times a week school and they already earn a little money) or it goes to school for 10 years which you need for jobs like police or office jobs (also all a 3 year job training with school and salary). If you decide to go to school for 12 years you can go to university afterwards but  different jobs expect different numerus clausus so you get accepted.

https://www.topuniversities.com/blog/german-university-admissions-numerus-clausus

Of course you can go to school for 10 years and then still get your degree but it's harder and mostly you can just go to other colleges but not universities.

For this I like the US system better as you don't need to push your kids in 4th grade to get the grades to go to the "Gymnasium". They also really expect a lot there from the kids. Of you are not naturally intelligent it's really hard to pass. Some parents really want their kids to study and burn them out.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Lillyfee

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Lillyfee said:

That is another thing. You need to be really good at school to study (teacher. Doctor...)

To become a vet for example you need a numerus clausus of like 1 which basically means all As. So it is free but not everyone makes it.

Our school system is different. At 4th grade you decide what your kid can do. Does is go to basic school for 9 years and usually learns a job for 3 years after that as like cook, hairdresser or carpenter etc (3 years work with 2 times a week school and they already earn a little money) or it goes to school for 10 years which you need for jobs like police or office jobs (also all a 3 year job training with school and salary). If you decide to go to school for 12 years you can go to university afterwards but  different jobs expect different numerus clausus so you get accepted.

https://www.topuniversities.com/blog/german-university-admissions-numerus-clausus

Of course you can go to school for 10 years and then still get your degree but it's harder and mostly you can just go to other colleges but not universities.

For this I like the US system better as you don't need to push your kids in 4th grade to get the grades to go to the "Gymnasium". They also really expect a lot there from the kids. Of you are not naturally intelligent it's really hard to pass. Some parents really want their kids to study and burn them out.

I think this is an important difference between the US and most countries that offer free or almost free university education. Selection is often early and usually rigorous in these countries. In the US, people have almost unlimited chances to attend college and change careers, but the financial costs are higher. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Frances

[Lillyfee]

That is a good point. I also really enjoy the freedom of education in the US with the possibility of homeschooling and that the kids have more time to bloom.

However, even a carpenter needs learn his job for 3 years in Germany and after that he can work and go on become a master, train other carpenters and get more money. So right after school he already gets a little money. For kids that are not school smart is that a good opportunity to still have a career.  For the businesses are the young people affordable workers but also responsibility. 

It is really rare in Germany that somebody did not learn a job for 3 year but not that many people go to college.

I really don't know which system is better or makes more sense. It's just really different and I do not know the American system too well yet. 

[SKL]

Yes, I too prefer the US system because it allows kids time to figure out priorities and accommodate differences before their realistic possibilities are severely limited.  My youngest is very bright and very stubborn.  Suddenly she cares about getting straight As.  It would be way too late in many countries.  It's hard to imagine many kids I know being focused enough on the future by 4th grade.  On the other hand, my eldest has big dreams but has to work very hard to do well in school.  I don't know what she'll end up doing, but I'm not going to tell her her future is cleaning toilets because she's not a genius.  I'm willing to put aside money to help her attend higher education and find a path that fits her.

[Lillyfee]

I know what you mean amd I agree that 4th grade is much too early to decide your future but learning a job is actually nothing bad but a great career opportunity.  A lot of my friends did job training and all of them live good and comfortable. 

I can't explain it very well, maybe that explains it better what it is.

https://wenr.wes.org/2018/06/could-germanys-vocational-education-and-training-system-be-a-model-for-the-u-s

[Carrie12345]

18 hours ago, Bootsie said:

What is the evidence that it "works" nearly everywhere else? 48% of those in the US between 25 and 64 years of age have a post-secondary degree.  The OECD average is only 38%.  COE - International Educational Attainment  If the goal is to have a high percentage of the population accessing post-secondary education, that is happening more in the US than most other countries.  

That isn’t the goal *I look to.  Others might, and see that stat as evidence that it doesn’t work, I suppose.

[SKL]

Nothing against job training, but it is possible to have both up to a point.  The US also offers vocational education for anyone who wants that, but the narrow path doesn't start until 11th grade (about age 16).

I'm a pretty educated professional who worked in all sorts of blue collar jobs in my teens/early adulthood.  It's good to experience a broad spectrum IMO before making a final decision.

[Carrie12345]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Nothing against job training, but it is possible to have both up to a point.  The US also offers vocational education for anyone who wants that, but the narrow path doesn't start until 11th grade (about age 16).

I'm a pretty educated professional who worked in all sorts of blue collar jobs in my teens/early adulthood.  It's good to experience a broad spectrum IMO before making a final decision.

It can start in 9th in some places.  But what seems to be the difference, is that it’s very possible to “go back” in the US system.  Not easily, but possible. At least with my local tech school, you could go on to CC (immediately or later) and then a 4-year.  
I don’t get that impression from some other countries. Though I could be wrong!