Help me think through this, no judgement please

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, Bootsie said:

It is my understanding that POA gives a person control to make decisions, but it does not take away control from the person that the asset belongs to.  I have POA for a relative.  That means that I can sign forms, withdraw money, etc.  But, it does not mean that the relative is not allowed to make decisions.  If the relative wanted to move every penny from the account, the relative can do so--I do not have guardianship.  

In our state, I would only be able to use POA to do much of anything if the person was unable to for some good reason, usually because they are in a coma or something. There might be a different kind of financial POA for older people, but I am not sure. It's definitely not as easy as, "They made me POA, so now I can sign their checks" or whatever is needed. Far from it. 

[Clarita]

8 hours ago, DawnM said:

I wish I could say, "You want her to come, she can't stay here or eat here, so YOU figure it out!"   He can't......so maybe that would be eye opening????

I think that would be a fine thing to say to him. I mean he can't, so she'll have to. Then she'll know what she's in for assuming perhaps she's a nice person and maybe he has been less than forthcoming with his condition (or he doesn't know his own capabilities).

[BusyMom5]

You are jumping WAY ahead, and while I agree with all the pitfalls you see possible, I think telling him no might make it worse.  Obviously he's in denial about his health (and hygiene).  I have a person this age in my life, snd he has a very hard time coming to grips with his reality of life.  If I were in your shoes, I would tell him she is welcome to visit and stay in a hotel,  but you are too busy to have a houseguest.  There is a very good chance she has family just as worried as you are!  There is also a chance its all talk and neither one can manage a trip anyway.  If she does visit, I'd invite her for dinner and be sure she can see the level of care he needs.  

Hugs to you!  You are in such a hard place, I'm sorry!

[Melissa in Australia]

Hugs

[TechWife]

11 hours ago, plansrme said:

If his mind is really not right, your may want to file for a guardianship and/or conservatorship. Generally, a guardian has care of the person, and a conservator of the person's assets. That (and the terminology) may differ in your state. Anyway, short of that, if--worse case scenario--he wants to up and go back with her, there is not anything you can do but try to reason with him. As his guardian, you could absolutely forbid it.

A lot of people seem to be suggesting this, or suggesting he be declared incompetent. For those who don’t know, this is not an easy thing to do, and it shouldn’t be.  It should not be undertaken lightly. There are medical evaluations, psychological evaluations, home visits, reviews of medical records, etc.. When someone is declared incompetent by the court, they no longer have the rights an adult has. They cannot vote, determine what to do with their money, where to live, enter into contracts for anything, decide who can come visit them - it goes on and on. Legally, they are a dependent, just like a minor child is. Additionally, the court can appoint anyone as the guardian and/or conservator. Just because there is family applying, it doesn’t mean they will get the responsibility. A guardian becomes responsible for the care of the person. A conservator is responsible for money management. The same person doesn’t always carry out both roles. The process takes months to carry out. Please don’t underestimate the emotional impact of having a legal declaration of incompetence on both parties. Honestly, this is a last resort, IMO. 

There is a difference between a medical diagnosis for something such as dementia and a legal declaration of incompetence. A medical diagnosis supports a legal declaration of incompetence, but doesn’t guarantee it. A medical diagnosis can be helpful if anything needs to be contested in court at a later time. Keep in mind, though, that the diagnosis doesn’t come without other complications, especially if the person is receiving benefits from a federal program.There are hoops to jump through to prove someone is helping with finances, which can result in delays & gaps in benefits.

A POA does not remove any rights from the person. It simply gives others the authority to act on their behalf. The person can still exercise their rights as an adult. These do need to be in place prior to a decline so that both medical and business affairs can be taken care of. I do remember that for my parents, they could revoke the POA at any time and the revocation could be oral. I sure the details vary by state.

Everyone needs to get legal advice before they undertake a declaration of incompetence. When my parents were elderly, the attorney advised us all to go with the POA unless it stopped working well. If, for example, my father, who had dementia, decided to refuse necessary care, then we could pursue guardianship to make sure he was taken care of. Guardianship isn’t for the purpose of preventing someone from doing something you disagree with, such as get married, it is for the purpose of making sure that someone who cannot make decisions at all is taken care of. 

 

[DawnM]

I know a few of you have said I am jumping the gun but he specifically said he wants to marry her.   

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

22 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I know a few of you have said I am jumping the gun but he specifically said he wants to marry her.   

Do you know if that’s what she wants, though?  With your dad’s decline, I’d wonder if he was actually reading the situation clearly and if the seriousness was truly mutual. 

[TechWife]

16 hours ago, Katy said:

I’d probably call our family attorney and ask for advice.  I’m thinking something along the lines of a little white lie that his estate is now tied up in a trust and if she marries him she’ll get nothing. But then the lawyer might suggest actually setting up a trust. Less than $500 probably.   At any rate, advice from a doctor (neurological exam) and lawyer (family/estate law) is probably the best place to start. 

I am firmly against lying.  If his estate is in a trust, he already knows this. If it isn’t already in a trust, he has to agree to this. Keep in mind that this woman, with who, he has been friends previously, may not be motivated by money at all, but by a desire for companionship and even love. Elderly people are people, after all. 

[DawnM]

25 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Do you know if that’s what she wants, though?  With your dad’s decline, I’d wonder if he was actually reading the situation clearly and if the seriousness was truly mutual. 

She seems interested, but again, she has no clue what he is like right now.

[TechWife]

42 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I know a few of you have said I am jumping the gun but he specifically said he wants to marry her.   

It’s not jumping the gun to think ahead. You are coming from a place of love for your father and of having information about his health, how it has limited him and impacted you & your family. 

Your OP asked us to help think through boundaries. Whether you realize it or not, you have done a good job recognizing some that need to be in place, it’s the execution that is the hard part & I sure can relate to that!

Reading through the responses, there are some things that stick out that I see has having the potential to be beneficial.

I like the idea you had for the Residence Inn. That keeps the housing & meal responsibility on them, not you. This is appropriate for people who are considering marriage.

I like the idea someone had about spending time with them as a couple. It gives you the obvious ability to get to know her while also providing openings for introducing your concerns. If they bring up marriage, for example, you can inquire where they plan to live, will they have physically accessible housing, “steps are so difficult, you know?” “Oh, do you know a good doctor in the area that treats xyz?” 
 

At the same time, limit the interaction you have with them as a couple so she has an opportunity to get to know the reality of the situation. One meal together  every two days might be a good boundary.

Encourage a short visit - a three day weekend, perhaps.

Let him know he will need to rely on Uber while she is there & write down simple instructions on how to use it. 

That’s all I’ve got right now, I’ll chime in again if I think of anything else. 
 

[DawnM]

Thanks guys.   Every single bit of this is anxiety producing to me.

Part of me thinks.....YOU go visit HER! 

And the truth is, he can't.   

[BlsdMama]

19 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

So, from his perspective, this may be your house, but it’s his home now.

You can certainly say that she can’t stay in the spare room, but I don’t know that you could stop him from having her stay in his, if that comes up.  I’m not anticipating that, just mentioning it in case you have not thought of it.

From the standpoint of what to do, I’d take the position that the house is full and she needs to stay somewhere else and arrange her own transportation.  But I’d also want to have her over for dinner a lot.  I’d want to get to know her, and I’d want her to see what your dad’s situation really is like.  That’s going to be more likely to happen if she is there a lot.  So I’d be all about figuring out easy dinners for the whole gang.  I’d also ask that she visit over a long weekend so that I’d be around more.  

As a side note, if your dad is not competent, I’d get that documented and legally set up right now, regardless of this relationship.  Otherwise things can get very complicated with his finances and/or medical care.  If he is not competent, there needs to be attorneys in fact established via POAs for both of those things.

ITA with all of this. The more work she sees you doing the more she will realize needs to be done and have to evaluate for herself if she can do that it is willing to do that. I don’t think I’d let a stranger stay at my house - your dad knew her, not you, so it isn’t weird that she would visit and stay elsewhere. If you don’t have her to dinner, it could present a picture of a difficult daughter which could supersede the true picture of extreme high maintenance due to health. I’d want to make sure that picture is clearly seen because she needs to know. I think it is in your best interest to be exceedingly hospitable so when it doesn’t work, it can be about her and him not working out rather than potentially looking like the hurdle, kwim? 

[BlsdMama]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

I know a few of you have said I am jumping the gun but he specifically said he wants to marry her.   

I suspect what your dad really wants is his life back. Sigh. He wants normalcy, companionship, Independence. Unfortunately that’s not going to happen. It’s hard when the body is a different ability than the mind chooses to recognize. 
 

ETA: This is a reflection on aging, not at all on the life you’ve built for him. It’s weird to think the best days of our lives are sometimes the chaos and difficulties of thirties and forties. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by BlsdMama

[DawnM]

11 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

ITA with all of this. The more work she sees you doing the more she will realize needs to be done and have to evaluate for herself if she can do that it is willing to do that. I don’t think I’d let a stranger stay at my house - your dad knew her, not you, so it isn’t weird that she would visit and stay elsewhere. If you don’t have her to dinner, it could present a picture of a difficult daughter which could supersede the true picture of extreme high maintenance due to health. I’d want to make sure that picture is clearly seen because she needs to know. I think it is in your best interest to be exceedingly hospitable so when it doesn’t work, it can be about her and him not working out rather than potentially looking like the hurdle, kwim? 

I don't have the energy to be exceedingly hospitable.   My house is currently a wreck and I am trying to muster up enough energy to clean the small living room area.  

[Annie G]

8 hours ago, TechWife said:

A lot of people seem to be suggesting this, or suggesting he be declared incompetent. For those who don’t know, this is not an easy thing to do, and it shouldn’t be.  It should not be undertaken lightly. There are medical evaluations, psychological evaluations, home visits, reviews of medical records, etc.. When someone is declared incompetent by the court, they no longer have the rights an adult has. They cannot vote, determine what to do with their money, where to live, enter into contracts for anything, decide who can come visit them - it goes on and on. Legally, they are a dependent, just like a minor child is. Additionally, the court can appoint anyone as the guardian and/or conservator. Just because there is family applying, it doesn’t mean they will get the responsibility. A guardian becomes responsible for the care of the person. A conservator is responsible for money management. The same person doesn’t always carry out both roles. The process takes months to carry out. Please don’t underestimate the emotional impact of having a legal declaration of incompetence on both parties. Honestly, this is a last resort, IMO. 

 

 

I agree that it’s a last resort and not necessary in this instance. But I wanted to mention that many states (maybe all?) recognize partial incompetence and that generally means another person will be in charge of specific things for the person, but not removing things like ability to drive, vote, etc.   I’ve known people who have had to go to court to get financial control or medical control, but the person was still able to vote and do other things. Even with financial control the guardian can give the person an allowance or access to a portion of their money.   But like I said, that’s not applicable here and you’re right that it’s a difficult process.

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Annie G said:

I agree that it’s a last resort and not necessary in this instance. But I wanted to mention that many states (maybe all?) recognize partial incompetence and that generally means another person will be in charge of specific things for the person, but not removing things like ability to drive, vote, etc.   I’ve known people who have had to go to court to get financial control or medical control, but the person was still able to vote and do other things. Even with financial control the guardian can give the person an allowance or access to a portion of their money.   But like I said, that’s not applicable here and you’re right that it’s a difficult process.

Definitely not all. This sounds like they were appointed POA, which doesn’t require a determination of incompetence. While I agree conservators can give an allowance, they are not required to do so any more than a parent is required to give an allowance to a child. 

[Tap]

Maybe having something to look forward to would be good for him. It sounds like he is craving socialization even if his body isn’t cooperative. 
 

if you have the energy, encourage her to stay in a hotel. Then have her join you at church and go out to lunch. Drop them off at the hotel together afterward and let them spend the afternoon together. Use the time to clean his room or just rest without needing to worry about him. Have a set pick up time, and go from there. She might be lovely, and a welcome distraction in his life! She might see how high his needs are and just stay phone friends. I would see about putting a withdrawal alert on his account, just in case she is a scammer. But it is most likely, she is just bored and lonely, like him. 

[Catwoman]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

I know a few of you have said I am jumping the gun but he specifically said he wants to marry her.   

How long do you think you can get away with delaying the visit? 

I know others may disagree, but I keep thinking the longer you are able to keep kicking the can down the road, the better. Your dad's health and mental state have been declining pretty rapidly, and if this woman keeps communicating with him regularly, hopefully she will start to realize that he's not the man she remembers from when they were young.

Are Zoom calls a possibility? Maybe you could help your dad set that up, and if she doesn't know how to do it, maybe one of her kids could help her, too? (Also, if her kids are in no rush to help her, that might indicate that they aren't happy about this relationship, either -- from their perspective, they might be worried that your dad is some loser who's looking for a woman to take care of him or steal their mom's money.) 

[Corraleno]

16 hours ago, kbutton said:

In our state, I would only be able to use POA to do much of anything if the person was unable to for some good reason, usually because they are in a coma or something. There might be a different kind of financial POA for older people, but I am not sure. It's definitely not as easy as, "They made me POA, so now I can sign their checks" or whatever is needed. Far from it. 

That depends on how the POA is structured, not the state. I have had (and still have) POAs for multiple people, in multiple states, including my 23-yr old DS, and I can (and do) open bank accounts, sign checks, file taxes, make investment decisions, and basically do anything that person can do except spend money in ways that would benefit me personally at the other person's expense. If a POA only goes into effect when and if the other person is incapacitated, that's because it was written that way, not because that is an inherent characteristic of all POAs. 

[Grace Hopper]

13 hours ago, TechWife said:

A lot of people seem to be suggesting this, or suggesting he be declared incompetent. For those who don’t know, this is not an easy thing to do, and it shouldn’t be.  It should not be undertaken lightly. There are medical evaluations, psychological evaluations, home visits, reviews of medical records, etc.. When someone is declared incompetent by the court, they no longer have the rights an adult has. They cannot vote, determine what to do with their money, where to live, enter into contracts for anything, decide who can come visit them - it goes on and on. Legally, they are a dependent, just like a minor child is. Additionally, the court can appoint anyone as the guardian and/or conservator. Just because there is family applying, it doesn’t mean they will get the responsibility. A guardian becomes responsible for the care of the person. A conservator is responsible for money management. The same person doesn’t always carry out both roles. The process takes months to carry out. Please don’t underestimate the emotional impact of having a legal declaration of incompetence on both parties. Honestly, this is a last resort, IMO. 

There is a difference between a medical diagnosis for something such as dementia and a legal declaration of incompetence. A medical diagnosis supports a legal declaration of incompetence, but doesn’t guarantee it. A medical diagnosis can be helpful if anything needs to be contested in court at a later time. Keep in mind, though, that the diagnosis doesn’t come without other complications, especially if the person is receiving benefits from a federal program.There are hoops to jump through to prove someone is helping with finances, which can result in delays & gaps in benefits.

A POA does not remove any rights from the person. It simply gives others the authority to act on their behalf. The person can still exercise their rights as an adult. These do need to be in place prior to a decline so that both medical and business affairs can be taken care of. I do remember that for my parents, they could revoke the POA at any time and the revocation could be oral. I sure the details vary by state.

Everyone needs to get legal advice before they undertake a declaration of incompetence. When my parents were elderly, the attorney advised us all to go with the POA unless it stopped working well. If, for example, my father, who had dementia, decided to refuse necessary care, then we could pursue guardianship to make sure he was taken care of. Guardianship isn’t for the purpose of preventing someone from doing something you disagree with, such as get married, it is for the purpose of making sure that someone who cannot make decisions at all is taken care of. 

 

I totally understand where you are coming from, a person has rights that must be respected. I mentioned the neuro appointment because there should be a baseline to work with, kwim? Not for for the sole purpose of having someone declared incompetent. IMO it’s part of the package in properly assessing IADLs/ADLs. 
 

People are entitled to be quirky, impetuous, free spending…. but when an 87 year old man who has suffered some falls (perhaps with head injury?) starts talking about marrying someone he hasn’t seen in decades? It seems prudent to at least rule out any sort of degenerative brain issue. Worst case scenario is not that he dies happily with a zero bank balance. Worst case is that he suffers caregiver abuse, or is abandoned after having lost all assets, leaving no funds available for remaining life care. Because that sort of bs happens not infrequently. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[annandatje]

If he wishes to entertain visitors, what were terms when he moved in?  Was he aware that it was against rules?  I am sorry you are having issues with him after working so hard to get him set up comfortably in your home.

If he is unhappy with the constraints of his living situation, he should make the changes needed within his limitations. 

Do not interfere by disclosing his health condition to potential sweetheart.  It is a violation of his privacy to do that; leave it up to him how much he wants to disclose.

As for money, a person has legal right to do whatever they desire with their money.  About all you can do is make sure his will and, if applicable, revocable living trust, are properly drafted in accordance with his wishes.  I understand your apprehension about the woman, but so far has she given you any reason to be wary?

The closer to death I get, the more I understand a person seeking out joy wherever they can find it.  However, I hope he stays with you where he is surrounded with love and caring family.

[DreamerGirl]

8 hours ago, DawnM said:

I know a few of you have said I am jumping the gun but he specifically said he wants to marry her.   

You are NOT jumping the gun. You are planning without which I will be blunt, you will be very soon screwed IMO if you go into it without it. This is not a situation you can fly by the seat of your pants. 

You are if I am right, living in an intergenerational household as both your parent and children are living with you and you are involved in the care of both. I do not know much about nursing homes and assisted living, but what I know is you are not in that situation. I do know very much about intergenerational living as I grew up like that. In my culture it is called joint family. It is a very good system when it works well as the burden of child rearing, household chores, cooking is split among 4 adults usually. It always involves elder care as the grandparents age and it is very helpful in societies like my country of origin where nursing homes and such are still not a thing.

The flip side is, there is potential for lots of conflict and the sandwich generation which bears the brunt of the care of the elders and the children are the ones taking the most load. Often there is this tendency for the adult child to hesitate to have to ask the elder parent to do things which are reasonable and makes their lives easy but they cannot or do not want to. It makes the adult child who is the sandwich generation and the spouse in lots of impossible situations as the elders age . I saw my parents face this and DH saw his parents. 

So in our case, when we wanted the good things of the intergenerational living, we also were aware of the downside. Both us and our parents and inlaws. So we all had discussions on how we wanted to do this because we wanted to live in harmony. It worked very well for years and it was a tremendous help to DH and I and we have wonderful memories.

Yet, when it came to aging and their care, we the sandwich generation had conversations among ourselves. Inlaws and parents had ideas about aging. They were fiercely independent and wanted to live alone as in no joint family until they died. It worked for a long time until the pandemic and their health went fast.

If my brother and I, DH and his siblings did not have what conversations about how we would approach their aging if they were unable to live alone for years before it occurred, we would not be on the same page. My brother and I were absolutely on the same page about what would happen if our parents could not and we planned every scenario we could think about years before. Our parents were very healthy and while it looked like we jumped the gun, the situation changed really fast.

Long story short, we had to sell our family home and our parents did not want to. They wanted to die in it. Very valid wish, but it was not working for them and my brother's family. My brother and I had to do the hard thing as in sell the family home. If we did not plan about it before, we would not have been on the same page. As it is, we had to push as in a hill we had to die on. It opened us up to a lot of criticism, but it is what it is. Sometimes you have the be the bad guy for the good of all and it involves both the elder and the sandwich generation carer.

I think you have to plan, find out what you are comfortable with, what you are not, what are your limits and so on. Planning prepares you. You also have to be prepared to be the bad guy and also know what is a hill you will die on for it may come to that.

Good luck OP. None of it is easy. 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by DreamerGirl