Vaccine Passports?

[HSMWB]

The next question seems to be vaccine passports.  Is this supposed to be a permanent thing for those who are advocating them?  In the places where they are being implemented is the an end game for them going away or is it the ‘new normal’?

[SlowRiver]

Where I am they say it's going to be temporary. Their legality once we are no longer in a state of emergency is questionable, so that may in fact be what happens. I've wondered how long they will be able to justify the SOE though.

Edited September 28, 2021 by SlowRiver

[Laura Corin]

They are being brought in in Scotland for accessing crowded venues, such as nightclubs, where masks are not required.

I don't think they are expected to be permanent.  Almost 90 percent of adult Scots are double jabbed. The passport may persuade a few more,  and young people seem to be the most likely not to bother with vaccination up to now.  These are our current vaccination rates

Edited September 28, 2021 by Laura Corin

[MEmama]

I feel like you’re fishing for something, but I’ll try to take your question-without-opinion-or-backstory in good faith.

I'm in favor of them, primarily because they simplify a process that I think ought to be happening more. We just got back from Ireland, where proof of vaccine is required for all indoor dining. We opted to only eat outdoors, but I watched plenty of people be asked at the doorways of restaurants, pubs and cafes for their QR code and never once did anyone so much as blink. It was just a total, complete non-issue. After months of true lockdown (of the likes no American came close to experiencing) everyone was truly glad to be able to be out and about—“living their lives freely” as some people here like to say—and vaccination allows them to do that. 
 

Will they be required *forever*? Of course not. But *right now* the entire world in the middle of a pandemic. I don’t care a whit whether I’m asked for a code on my phone in the future, but I sure would feel safer doing so for now. 

[Bootsie]

Vaccine passports go beyond simply a requirement for a proof of a particular vaccine to participate in an event.  For a vaccine passport to be worthwhile, we would have to have some centralized, official recording of vaccines.  At this point we do not have that in the US.  Different states record vaccines differently.  Different providers record vaccines differently.  I do not see us getting to that type of standardization and centralization of medical records in the US any time in the near future.

[gardenmom5]

We've already encountered them in our state.  I expect them to be around until covid is "over".  If it ever is. . . . 

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Vaccine passports go beyond simply a requirement for a proof of a particular vaccine to participate in an event.  For a vaccine passport to be worthwhile, we would have to have some centralized, official recording of vaccines.  At this point we do not have that in the US.  Different states record vaccines differently.  Different providers record vaccines differently.  I do not see us getting to that type of standardization and centralization of medical records in the US any time in the near future.

Yeah, I have been wondering how that info is kept and used in the US.  I went to my usual provider (very large health organization) for a mammogram a few weeks ago, and at the end, they asked about my vax status.  So I guess they don't have access to that info unless I tell them, and this was the first time I was asked.

I just assumed we bring our vax record cards with us when needed.  These are handwritten.

[HSMWB]

22 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I feel like you’re fishing for something, but I’ll try to take your question-without-opinion-or-backstory in good faith.

I'm in favor of them, primarily because they simplify a process that I think ought to be happening more. We just got back from Ireland, where proof of vaccine is required for all indoor dining. We opted to only eat outdoors, but I watched plenty of people be asked at the doorways of restaurants, pubs and cafes for their QR code and never once did anyone so much as blink. It was just a total, complete non-issue. After months of true lockdown (of the likes no American came close to experiencing) everyone was truly glad to be able to be out and about—“living their lives freely” as some people here like to say—and vaccination allows them to do that. 
 

Will they be required *forever*? Of course not. But *right now* the entire world in the middle of a pandemic. I don’t care a whit whether I’m asked for a code on my phone in the future, but I sure would feel safer doing so for now. 

 

8 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

We've already encountered them in our state.  I expect them to be around until covid is "over".  If it ever is. . . . 

I am personally just trying to think through these perspectives, if Covid is going to be with us ‘forever’.  

 

17 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Vaccine passports go beyond simply a requirement for a proof of a particular vaccine to participate in an event.  For a vaccine passport to be worthwhile, we would have to have some centralized, official recording of vaccines.  At this point we do not have that in the US.  Different states record vaccines differently.  Different providers record vaccines differently.  I do not see us getting to that type of standardization and centralization of medical records in the US any time in the near future.

When I look around I also see this.  And if the US is going to put the effort to get from this current state to one where we have vaccine passports, well that is going to be a LOT of work. 
 

 

[SlowRiver]

37 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

They are being brought in in Scotland for accessing crowded venues, such as nightclubs, where masks are not required.

I don't think they are expected to be permanent.  Almost 90 percent of adult Scots are double jabbed. The passport may persuade a few more,  and young people seem to be the most likely not to bother with vaccination up to now.  These are our current vaccination rates

This brings up an interesting question, though. Requiring proof of vaccination in this way is temporary because there are real privacy and freedom concerns associated with it in most western countries legal systems. So it's seen very much as a matter of balance, the benefits of allowing it have to be significant.

So the question becomes, will vaccine passports make much difference? Given, for example, that many places don't and can't require them, and people will still congregate in those places. And that is going to be even more the case where a high proportion of people are vaccinated anyway. Where there is a 90% vaccination rate the payoff isn't going to be nearly as significant.

[Bootsie]

22 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

 

 

When I look around I also see this.  And if the US is going to put the effort to get from this current state to one where we have vaccine passports, well that is going to be a LOT of work. 
 

 

I don't know that the "work" to put this in place would be the difficult part.  I thinkt here are a lot of legal issues--and I cannot imagine what all those would be.  I think there would be state/federal government issues.  But, I think there would be some issues regarding whether this passport were cosidered a medical record or an official government-issued document.  

[Laura Corin]

13 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

This brings up an interesting question, though. Requiring proof of vaccination in this way is temporary because there are real privacy and freedom concerns associated with it in most western countries legal systems. So it's seen very much as a matter of balance, the benefits of allowing it have to be significant.

So the question becomes, will vaccine passports make much difference? Given, for example, that many places don't and can't require them, and people will still congregate in those places. And that is going to be even more the case where a high proportion of people are vaccinated anyway. Where there is a 90% vaccination rate the payoff isn't going to be nearly as significant.

There are two separate reasons for the passports. The first is that nightclubs and places where people drink do not require masks, unlike all other public indoor places - shops, cinemas, etc. So only allowing vaccinated people in might reduce hot spots. The positivity rate is about 10 percent at present, and cases are high but falling a little.

The second reason is to give young people a selfish reason to vaccinate, if public-spiritedness hasn't worked. 

[SlowRiver]

7 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

There are two separate reasons for the passports. The first is that nightclubs and places where people drink do not require masks, unlike all other public indoor places - shops, cinemas, etc. So only allowing vaccinated people in might reduce hot spots. The positivity rate is about 10 percent at present, and cases are high but falling a little.

The second reason is to give young people a selfish reason to vaccinate, if public-spiritedness hasn't worked. 

Yes, however, as I said, when you have a very high vaccination rate, the benefit is not as significant. So it's harder to justify the requirement.

[MEmama]

56 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

Yes, however, as I said, when you have a very high vaccination rate, the benefit is not as significant. So it's harder to justify the requirement.

Ireland has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, currently sitting at over 90% fully vaxxed and climbing. Besides the indoor vax passport requirement, there is a mask mandate on all public transport and in all shops. Although there is no mandate for outdoor masking, in the two weeks we spent in Dublin, 30-40% of people in the city were masked on sidewalks. We are extremely covid cautious and even though we live in one of the safest states in the US, we felt quite comfortable the entire trip. Given our level of caution and how *very* much we don’t want to get covid, it really is saying a lot and is testament to the freedom we had there that we can’t currently have anywhere in the US. 
 

This is a GLOBAL pandemic. It’s not enough to say oh, this particular place has a high vax rate so we can ditch the restrictions and throw caution to the wind. Some countries have tried that and failed, some are trying it now (thinking of Norway) and are being warned about the consequences. Until the majority of the world's population has been vaccinated and/or other mitigation enacted (or, it must be said, sufficiently devastated to have achieved herd immunity for those remaining) we all have to work together to get a handle on it. I honestly don't understand why that’s so difficult to understand. 
 

 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, SlowRiver said:

This brings up an interesting question, though. Requiring proof of vaccination in this way is temporary because there are real privacy and freedom concerns associated with it in most western countries legal systems. So it's seen very much as a matter of balance, the benefits of allowing it have to be significant.

 

A passport system actually allows for a lot more privacy. Someone can be coded as green (or whatever system they use), and no one checking it has to know through what route they qualify for entry (vaccine, exemption, infection, etc), just that they do. That makes it easier for us to implement a system that takes prior infection into account, too.

[HSMWB]

Is this level of input into the proposed potential system mean that it is now a ‘forever’ system though? Who decides what routes would qualify a person?  How does the technology for this work?  The logistics seem almost mind boggling to me that a society would put this much effort into something that everyone thinks is only temporary.

[MercyA]

22 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

Is this level of input into the proposed potential system mean that it is now a ‘forever’ system though? Who decides what routes would qualify a person?  How does the technology for this work?  The logistics seem almost mind boggling to me that a society would put this much effort into something that everyone thinks is only temporary.

Given the effort and money we've put into super logistically complicated things like space exploration and the invasion and takeover of other countries, I really think the U.S. can manage a centralized vaccine database. Especially, you know, with almost 700,000 human beings dead. Seems kind of urgent to me to actually do something about it. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by MercyA

[KSera]

20 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

Is this level of input into the proposed potential system mean that it is now a ‘forever’ system though? Who decides what routes would qualify a person?  How does the technology for this work?  The logistics seem almost mind boggling to me that a society would put this much effort into something that everyone thinks is only temporary.

Other countries have done it and it’s working well for them. Many of their economies are rebounding well and their Covid hospitalization and death rates are much lower than ours. Coincidentally, I just read something in Bloomberg about that this morning: A Growing Argument for a Move Toward the European Model

“Europe’s continued domination of Bloomberg’s Covid Resilience Ranking for the third month in a row in September shows the strength of the vaccination-led model that has emerged as the most successful amid delta’s onslaught, and one that’s likely to be increasingly followed across the world.

The European Union’s pioneering guidance to mostly limit quarantine-free travel to immunized people held down serious illness and deaths even as the peak summer tourism season unfolded. In addition, government moves to allow some domestic freedoms only for inoculated people boosted take-up rates to some of the highest in the world, further strengthening the shield of vaccination.

Nowhere has the resilience of this strategy been more evident than in Ireland, the Ranking’s new No. 1, marking a startling turnaround for a country that at the start of 2021 had the worst outbreak in the world.

In Ireland, only immunized people are allowed inside restaurants and bars, boosting its inoculation coverage to over 90% of the adult population. Just this week, travel restrictions were fully lifted for vaccinated visitors, while weekly deaths hover in the double digits.

The deterioration of other pandemic approaches are a growing argument for the world to move toward the European model.”

and it continues from there. 

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

A passport system actually allows for a lot more privacy. Someone can be coded as green (or whatever system they use), and no one checking it has to know through what route they qualify for entry (vaccine, exemption, infection, etc), just that they do. That makes it easier for us to implement a system that takes prior infection into account, too.

It isn't simply a privacy issue regarding the person that you show the vaccine passport to at a venue.  There are many privacy issues regarding access to and maintenance of the database and how informatin is added to the database. 

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, HSMWB said:

The next question seems to be vaccine passports.  Is this supposed to be a permanent thing for those who are advocating them?  In the places where they are being implemented is the an end game for them going away or is it the ‘new normal’?

 

7 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

We've already encountered them in our state.  I expect them to be around until covid is "over".  If it ever is. . . . 

 

6 hours ago, HSMWB said:

 

I am personally just trying to think through these perspectives, if Covid is going to be with us ‘forever’.  

 

I guess I don't understand your response to me.  You asked people's opinions on what they think will happen with vaccine passports, I gave my *first-hand experience*, as well as my opinion of what I think will happen.  Was that not the "opinion" you wanted? you stated that you "are just trying to think things through"?  

[HSMWB]

Yes, I was asking for opinions, thank you so much for sharing yours!

I was simply trying to contrast the opinion shown by you and the opinion shown by MEmama which was why I tried to quote both.  They seem different to me by different degrees and I am trying to consider all the opinions offered.
 

I certainly feel like I am living in a cornerstone time of history.

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, HSMWB said:

Is this level of input into the proposed potential system mean that it is now a ‘forever’ system though? Who decides what routes would qualify a person?  How does the technology for this work?  The logistics seem almost mind boggling to me that a society would put this much effort into something that everyone thinks is only temporary.

In the UK, vaccination has been organised centrally.  There are glitches being ironed out where people had one jab in England and one in Scotland,  for example, but otherwise the records are already there. I've been able to produce a vaccine page for months, if required. They are just working on the QR codes, I believe. Only vaccination records are being used here for passports. I haven't heard a lot of objection to that. Eta I removed my identity from this example - 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Laura Corin

[bookbard]

Yeah, we've had central vaccination records in Australia for years - you have to print out a copy to give to preschools and schools on enrolment, for example. So it was very easy to add Covid vaccine to that, and either print out or add to your phone a copy of the record. Right now we're in lockdown, but in a few weeks you'll have to show your double vaccination status in order to go to pubs, restaurants, cafes, the theatre. But anyone can go to essential places - the post office, the bank, the food store, the doctor. 

The purpose of this seems to encourage the small number of vaccine hesitant people - which in Australia seems to be more likely to be young men - to get vaccinated, in order to reach a safe 95% which will reduce the risk to those in the community with low immunity, and to reduce the pressure on medical services, which are under a lot of stress right now. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-29/nsw-school-returns-one-week-earlier/100501974
 

NSW school reopening brought forward a week.

[MEmama]

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, vaccination has been organised centrally.  There are glitches being ironed out where people had one jab in England and one in Scotland,  for example, but otherwise the records are already there. I've been able to produce a vaccine page for months, if required. They are just working on the QR codes, I believe. Only vaccination records are being used here for passports. I haven't heard a lot of objection to that. Eta I removed my identity from this example - 

 

We have a similar chart—and a QR code— available in our health insurance portal. 
 

I'm not sure what kind of privacy concerns people claim to be so distraught over. It’s vaccine history, that’s all. 

[TechWife]

9 hours ago, Bootsie said:

It isn't simply a privacy issue regarding the person that you show the vaccine passport to at a venue.  There are many privacy issues regarding access to and maintenance of the database and how informatin is added to the database. 

Those privacy concerns exist now and are managed accordingly. It’s not a big deal & they aren’t “issues.” Most medical info in the US is stored electronically & there are already policies, procedures, regulations & laws that protect it. Adding one vaccine series to the record isn’t going to break it. The technology already exists from the EMR standpoint, dozens of vaccine passport apps have already been developed. It’s simply a matter of someone connecting existing info. 

For the states or orgs that didn’t keep accurate records for some bizarre reason, they can be created through private health care providers and their existing systems with each provider deciding what they will accept as “proof” of vaccine administration, just like they do with all other medical history. 

This isn’t hard. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by TechWife

[KSera]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Those privacy concerns exist now and are managed accordingly. It’s not a big deal & they aren’t “issues.” Most medical info in the US is stored electronically & there are already policies, procedures, regulations & laws that protect it. Adding one vaccine series to the record isn’t going to break it. The technology already exists from the EMR standpoint, dozens of vaccine passport apps have already been developed. It’s simply a matter of someone connecting existing info. 

For the states or orgs that didn’t keep accurate records for some bizarre reason, they can be created through private health care providers and their existing systems with each provider deciding what they will accept as “proof” of vaccine administration, just like they do with all other medical history. 

This isn’t hard. 

All of this. I’m pretty far on the side of working hard for as much digital privacy in my life as possible. I use several additional software products and follow procedures that are a pitb in order to reduce as much as I can the degree to which companies can follow me around and connect and track my data. Yet this particular thing is not a concern to me. The fact that when I make a purchase at many stores, those stores turn around and sell that purchase information to Facebook (whether I have a Facebook account or not) is a big issues to me. This is not. For anyone who posts on Facebook or Instagram or uses Google, etc, etc, it doesn’t make any sense for them to use privacy concerns as a reason a vaccine app is a problem. Most of them have companies making a daily map of everywhere they go in person and everything they click online. This would be protected data, unlike all of that. 

[Spryte]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

All of this. I’m pretty far on the side of working hard for as much digital privacy in my life as possible. I use several additional software products and follow procedures that are a pitb in order to reduce as much as I can the degree to which companies can follow me around and connect and track my data. Yet this particular thing is not a concern to me. The fact that when I make a purchase at many stores, those stores turn around and sell that purchase information to Facebook (whether I have a Facebook account or not) is a big issues to me. This is not. For anyone who posts on Facebook or Instagram or uses Google, etc, etc, it doesn’t make any sense for them to use privacy concerns as a reason a vaccine app is a problem. Most of them have companies making a daily map of everywhere they go in person and everything they click online. This would be protected data, unlike all of that. 

QFT.

If privacy is a concern, I hope people are not using SM, at a minimum. I do care about privacy and to that end, for that very reason, have never had a SM account (except here, not the same), have never allowed anyone to post pics of our kids online on any platform, and could go on and on about how we foster privacy. We miss out on some things because we don’t and won’t do FB. Never have. This comes from having family in intelligence, and listening to their thoughts when FB appeared on the scene. We felt strongly, made a choice and live with the consequences.

I think “vaccine passport” is a stupid name, and clearly contrived to get people’s hackles up. More manufactured outrage.

I don’t have a problem with proof of vaccination being required for certain activities, that’s the case already, and it’s nothing new or noteworthy. The people I know who are opposed to childhood vaccinations have adjusted their lives accordingly - some homeschool instead of using PS, some have made a point to seek out Mds who support their choice. Some didn’t travel with kids when their were some Measles outbreaks. No reason that people who opt not to vaccinate for Covid can’t also adjust their lives to accommodate their choice.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Those privacy concerns exist now and are managed accordingly. It’s not a big deal & they aren’t “issues.” Most medical info in the US is stored electronically & there are already policies, procedures, regulations & laws that protect it. Adding one vaccine series to the record isn’t going to break it. The technology already exists from the EMR standpoint, dozens of vaccine passport apps have already been developed. It’s simply a matter of someone connecting existing info. 

For the states or orgs that didn’t keep accurate records for some bizarre reason, they can be created through private health care providers and their existing systems with each provider deciding what they will accept as “proof” of vaccine administration, just like they do with all other medical history. 

This isn’t hard. 

My understanding is that this is different than simply adding a vaccine series to a medical record.  Yes, medical ifnormation in the US is stored electronically.  But, it is not all stored by a central organization.  I can go to one doctor in the US have something recorded electronically with that doctor; it is not in a central database for other medical professionals to access.  Othere countries have more centralized medical record keeping. 

If you have thousands of different health care providers deciding what they will or will not accept as proof of vaccination, any vaccination passport is going to be useless.  The reason a vaccine passport is worth something is that it is a consistent, authoritative record.  

 

 

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I can go to one doctor in the US have something recorded electronically with that doctor; it is not in a central database for other medical professionals to access.

Are you in Texas? I remember from looking into it months ago that Texas was unique in how vaccine records are stored and shared. It requires opting in to do so. So, it may be that people in Texas will need to do so if they want to use this system. 

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I think “vaccine passport” is a stupid name, and clearly contrived to get people’s hackles up. More manufactured outrage.

I don’t have a problem with proof of vaccination being required for certain activities, that’s the case already, and it’s nothing new or noteworthy. The people I know who are opposed to childhood vaccinations have adjusted their lives accordingly - some homeschool instead of using PS, some have made a point to seek out Mds who support their choice. Some didn’t travel with kids when their were some Measles outbreaks. No reason that people who opt not to vaccinate for Covid can’t also adjust their lives to accommodate their choice.

Personally, I do not have a problem with places asking for proof of vaccination to participate in certain activities.  I think, however, people hear of vaccine passports in other countries and think it is as simple as creating a QR code for people's phones.  The proof of vaccination is only as good as the process that is used to create the proof.  For many different reasons we have a different system in the US for recording and maintaining medical records than other coutnries do.  

 

[TexasProud]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

Are you in Texas? I remember from looking into it months ago that Texas was unique in how vaccine records are stored and shared. It requires opting in to do so. So, it may be that people in Texas will need to do so if they want to use this system. 

When I went for my wellness check up with my family doc, they have no record of it.  I used their portal to sign up!!!! (Got it at convention center but sponsored by christus)  Guess I better not lose my paper card. 

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Are you in Texas? I remember from looking into it months ago that Texas was unique in how vaccine records are stored and shared. It requires opting in to do so. So, it may be that people in Texas will need to do so if they want to use this system. 

I am in Texas and Texas does require adults to opt into a system to record vaccines.  But, overall our vaccine recording in the US is not consistent, standardized, or centralized.  Just as people have been able to create false records of being vaccinated, people have been able to lie about vaccination status to get boosters.  If there were a centralized system that was used, a person would not be able to cross a state line or go to a different provider and say that they had Pfizer before (when they had Moderna) so that they could get a booster, or they would not be able to say that it was six months before when it was only five, etc.  

For a vaccine passport to be valid you also have to make sure that the person receiving the vaccine is actually the person for who the vaccine is being recorded; that requires some form of identification at the point of vaccination.  In the US, we have resisted requiring any type of government-mandated ID; countries that have implemented vaccine passports have these types of IDs.  We have encouraged those who do not have an ID to get vaccinated.  Also, for the passport vaccine to work, you have to have a way of verifying that the person showing you the vaccine passport is the person that the passport belongs to.  Without all of these types of checks for validity, a vaccine passport is not worth the paper it is printed on.  

[Laura Corin]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am in Texas and Texas does require adults to opt into a system to record vaccines.  But, overall our vaccine recording in the US is not consistent, standardized, or centralized.  Just as people have been able to create false records of being vaccinated, people have been able to lie about vaccination status to get boosters.  If there were a centralized system that was used, a person would not be able to cross a state line or go to a different provider and say that they had Pfizer before (when they had Moderna) so that they could get a booster, or they would not be able to say that it was six months before when it was only five, etc.  

For a vaccine passport to be valid you also have to make sure that the person receiving the vaccine is actually the person for who the vaccine is being recorded; that requires some form of identification at the point of vaccination.  In the US, we have resisted requiring any type of government-mandated ID; countries that have implemented vaccine passports have these types of IDs.  We have encouraged those who do not have an ID to get vaccinated.  Also, for the passport vaccine to work, you have to have a way of verifying that the person showing you the vaccine passport is the person that the passport belongs to.  Without all of these types of checks for validity, a vaccine passport is not worth the paper it is printed on.  

The UK doesn't have a national ID.  However most people were invited individually to their vaccination appointment and had to show their invitation. Theoretically someone could have taken another person's appointment but there wasn't much incentive as everyone was eligible in sequence.

Drinking establishments require ID for age, so that could be used with the vaccine passport. 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Bootsie]

9 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

The UK doesn't have a national ID.  However most people were invited individually to their vaccination appointment and had to show their invitation. Theoretically someone could have taken another person's appointment but there wasn't much incentive as everyone was eligible in sequence.

Drinking establishments require ID for age, so that could be used with the vaccine passport. 

To be able to be invited individually for a vaccination appointment would mean that the government would have to know who you are and where you are to invite you.  We have resisted that in the US.  

[MEmama]

Just now, Bootsie said:

To be able to be invited individually for a vaccination appointment would mean that the government would have to know who you are and where you are to invite you.  We have resisted that in the US.  

Isn’t that sad? People need to think long and hard when they vote against measures that help instead of hinder (like universal healthcare as an obvious example). Hopefully some eyes are being opened. 

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Isn’t that sad? People need to think long and hard when they vote against measures that help instead of hinder (like universal healthcare as an obvious example). Hopefully some eyes are being opened. 

Yes, it would help know who is where when we need to vaccinate during a pandemic, but it also opens up issues regarding knowing who is in this country with documentation and who is not.  It also means that the government knows who is living with whom--which can help in a pandemic but raises all other type of concerns.  It is simply a matter if we want the government to be able to track officially who has and has not had a vaccine there must be a system in place to identify who is who in our country.  If we were to record officially who is gettting a vaccine using a unique record tied to that person, anyone in the country without documentation would not be able to receive a vaccine; that is a very big public health concern, especially in some areas of the US.  

[WildflowerMom]

10 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Isn’t that sad? People need to think long and hard when they vote against measures that help instead of hinder (like universal healthcare as an obvious example). Hopefully some eyes are being opened. 

I don’t really get it either, ME.  I don’t get the privacy side of this issue.   I mean do people actually think they have privacy anymore??   I went to the health dept to get ds’ vaccine record for college— he’s never even had a vaccine at the health dept.   yet there’s his medical records.   I think we’re fooling ourselves if we think we have privacy of just about any sort at this point in time.  But that’s some of our own doing.  I mean, here we all are on a public message board talking about all kinds of things (I mean, hello, I was asking about vaginal burning yesterday 😆).  I have willingly given up my privacy in a big way. 😆  

 

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

I don’t really get it either, ME.  I don’t get the privacy side of this issue.   I mean do people actually think they have privacy anymore??   I went to the health dept to get ds’ vaccine record for college— he’s never even had a vaccine at the health dept.   yet there’s his medical records.   I think we’re fooling ourselves if we think we have privacy of just about any sort at this point in time.  But that’s some of our own doing.  I mean, here we all are on a public message board talking about all kinds of things (I mean, hello, I was asking about vaginal burning yesterday 😆).  I have willingly given up my privacy in a big way. 😆  

 

But see Bootsie’s post.  

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

But see Bootsie’s post.  

Oh yeah, that’s a valid point!  I’m not sure how to maneuver around that.  

[Laura Corin]

24 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

To be able to be invited individually for a vaccination appointment would mean that the government would have to know who you are and where you are to invite you.  We have resisted that in the US.  

Everyone who chooses to be part of the National Health Service will have a primary care doctor.  It's those lists that were used. Almost everyone makes that choice. Private primary care is rare.

[Bootsie]

13 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

I don’t really get it either, ME.  I don’t get the privacy side of this issue.   I mean do people actually think they have privacy anymore??   I went to the health dept to get ds’ vaccine record for college— he’s never even had a vaccine at the health dept.   yet there’s his medical records.   I think we’re fooling ourselves if we think we have privacy of just about any sort at this point in time.  But that’s some of our own doing.  I mean, here we all are on a public message board talking about all kinds of things (I mean, hello, I was asking about vaginal burning yesterday 😆).  I have willingly given up my privacy in a big way. 😆  

 

But, if you have moved from another state, or if your child had received a vaccine in another state (or even another country), would that vaccine appear on the records at the health department?  

There is also a big difference in willingly giving up privacy and not having a choice about giving up privacy.  

[Spryte]

Hmmm, well, maybe we should ask the credit reporting agencies how they do things. They certainly seem to know who lives where, with whom, and who might have used a different name or lived at a different address at some point. There doesn’t seem to be an issue with keeping track of past addresses.

Being rather tongue in cheek. But I think most of us don’t have as much privacy as we think. With the exception of maybe some people living very, very rural, and definitely some people living on reservations - some of whom would actually like to have more visibility or actual street names so they can more easily do things like vote.

 

@Laura CorinMy quoting technique isn’t working properly, but I wanted to say that I think some people in the US might not realize that opting out of the NHS is an option, and that there’s still a path to choose otherwise, if that’s the goal. So thanks for bringing that up. It’s a good point.

6 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Everyone who chooses to be part of the National Health Service will have a primary care doctor.  It's those lists that were used. Almost everyone makes that choice. Private primary care is rare.

[SlowRiver]

17 hours ago, MEmama said:

Ireland has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, currently sitting at over 90% fully vaxxed and climbing. Besides the indoor vax passport requirement, there is a mask mandate on all public transport and in all shops. Although there is no mandate for outdoor masking, in the two weeks we spent in Dublin, 30-40% of people in the city were masked on sidewalks. We are extremely covid cautious and even though we live in one of the safest states in the US, we felt quite comfortable the entire trip. Given our level of caution and how *very* much we don’t want to get covid, it really is saying a lot and is testament to the freedom we had there that we can’t currently have anywhere in the US. 
 

This is a GLOBAL pandemic. It’s not enough to say oh, this particular place has a high vax rate so we can ditch the restrictions and throw caution to the wind. Some countries have tried that and failed, some are trying it now (thinking of Norway) and are being warned about the consequences. Until the majority of the world's population has been vaccinated and/or other mitigation enacted (or, it must be said, sufficiently devastated to have achieved herd immunity for those remaining) we all have to work together to get a handle on it. I honestly don't understand why that’s so difficult to understand. 
 

 

You haven't said anything about how you balance the benefit against the problems involved with passports. There are very good and important reasons that they would under normal circumstances be illegal, and there are serious legal considerations and democratic principles involved.

There seems to be a portion of the population that has zero interest in even considering what the limits of any of these things are or what legal precedent suggests they ought to be. However, if you look at civil liberties thinking, it's quite clear - impositions on civil liberties, among other things, have to be in proportion to the benefit.

Not the overall benefit of "restrictions", which tells us nothing about this particular one. But the specific benefit of this specific restriction. How much benefit will vaccine passports, in a specific place, give over not having them. If there is already a high vaccination uptake, they will be of less benefit than if the uptake was more moderate. So the trade off may not actually be proportionate under those conditions.

[Bootsie]

7 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Hmmm, well, maybe we should ask the credit reporting agencies how they do things. They certainly seem to know who lives where, with whom, and who might have used a different name or lived at a different address at some point. There doesn’t seem to be an issue with keeping track of past addresses.

Being rather tongue in cheek. But I think most of us don’t have as much privacy as we think. With the exception of maybe some people living very, very rural, and definitely some people living on reservations - some of whom would actually like to have more visibility or actual street names so they can more easily do things like vote.

 

@Laura CorinMy quoting technique isn’t working properly, but I wanted to say that I think some people in the US might not realize that opting out of the NHS is an option, and that there’s still a path to choose otherwise, if that’s the goal. So thanks for bringing that up. It’s a good point.

But, there are many people who are not included in credit reporting agenices databases--some of the most medically vulnerable in society (and there are many errors/inaccuracies in these pieced-together databases).  I know of a number of neighborhoods and househouseholds for which no one knows exactly how many people (much less who) lives at that address--in large cities.    

For those of us who have a mortgage, property records, a cellphone for which we get a bill at our address, a drivers license, auto insurance bills that come to our address, and a primary care physician it is easy to think of how vaccine passport informaiton could be collected and put our smartphone.  There are many in the US who do not live like that. 

[HSMWB]

In places (not the US obviously) that have the infrastructure in place to do things like track the vaccine status of everyone - if it is required for admittance- is there a way for exemptions to allow allow the person admission (natural immunity, medical, religious, etc,)?  If so, who decides when and how those are entered into the system?  Also, how are visitors brought into the system?  Does this mean that to go to the movies/restaurant/bar/place where it is being requested - you have to have access to a smart phone or computer and printer or how is it verified??

[Laura Corin]

8 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

In places (not the US obviously) that have the infrastructure in place to do things like track the vaccine status of everyone - if it is required for admittance- is there a way for exemptions to allow allow the person admission (natural immunity, medical, religious, etc,)?  If so, who decides when and how those are entered into the system?  Also, how are visitors brought into the system?  Does this mean that to go to the movies/restaurant/bar/place where it is being requested - you have to have access to a smart phone or computer and printer or how is it verified??

In Scotland there are medical exemptions but not for previous infection.  I don't know about religious exemption but those aren't normally  a  thing here. You can ask for a printed certificate.  Overseas visitors - I'm not sure.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Spryte]

16 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But, there are many people who are not included in credit reporting agenices databases--some of the most medically vulnerable in society (and there are many errors/inaccuracies in these pieced-together databases).  I know of a number of neighborhoods and househouseholds for which no one knows exactly how many people (much less who) lives at that address--in large cities.    

For those of us who have a mortgage, property records, a cellphone for which we get a bill at our address, a drivers license, auto insurance bills that come to our address, and a primary care physician it is easy to think of how vaccine passport informaiton could be collected and put our smartphone.  There are many in the US who do not live like that. 

Oh, of course. But the people that I know IRL who are opposed to anyone keeping track of vaccines are all mortgage-holding, privileged, smartphone and dedicated FB users, and consumers of SM. They object to this one privacy violation but not others.

The medically vulnerable and others might well benefit from becoming more visible, and easier access to medical care. Having worked with a portion of sort of “unseen” persons on reservations, I can attest to the frustration with access to medical care and voting. 

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Oh, of course. But the people that I know IRL who are opposed to anyone keeping track of vaccines are all mortgage-holding, privileged, smartphone and dedicated FB users, and consumers of SM. They object to this one privacy violation but not others.

The medically vulnerable and others might well benefit from becoming more visible, and easier access to medical care. Having worked with a portion of sort of “unseen” persons on reservations, I can attest to the frustration with access to medical care and voting. 

I think there are two separate issues.  Some people oppose a vaccine passport for philosophical reasons.  Others think that, given our current system of data collection (which has evolved to this point for a number of reasons),  that we don't have the data to provide reasonably reliable data to create a vaccine passport using past data that is so messy and unreliable.  The passport cannot be any more official than the original documentation.  Personally, I think that thinking we are safer in a situation that this type of vaccine proof is required is really fooling ourselves.

Some of the "unseen" persons may well benefit from becoming more visible; however, it is some of the most liberal people that I know who want these people to have the option of remaining unseen at the present time so that they can keep their employment or their family together AND they want these individuals to have access to a vaccine.  

[MEmama]

58 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

You haven't said anything about how you balance the benefit against the problems involved with passports. There are very good and important reasons that they would under normal circumstances be illegal, and there are serious legal considerations and democratic principles involved.

There seems to be a portion of the population that has zero interest in even considering what the limits of any of these things are or what legal precedent suggests they ought to be. However, if you look at civil liberties thinking, it's quite clear - impositions on civil liberties, among other things, have to be in proportion to the benefit.

Not the overall benefit of "restrictions", which tells us nothing about this particular one. But the specific benefit of this specific restriction. How much benefit will vaccine passports, in a specific place, give over not having them. If there is already a high vaccination uptake, they will be of less benefit than if the uptake was more moderate. So the trade off may not actually be proportionate under those conditions.

How could I? I’m not an expert. Lol. And to be honest, I don’t even have an opinion on your statement because I don't understand your concerns about civil liberties in this instance. 🤷‍♀️

I will say that it is my suspicion that people who claim to not want something like proof of vaccination because something something a few people might not find it easy something something—ie: issues they probably don’t care about consistently or vote to empower and change—are using them as excuses. The US isn’t special, we aren’t unique. Every country has undocumented workers, people living in dire poverty, people living outside the “normal” reach of government and services. While those are undoubtedly problems, the place to fix them in is at the voting booth, not in a hypothetical debate about showing proof of vaccination when you want to dine out. 
 

[Bootsie]

15 minutes ago, MEmama said:

How could I? I’m not an expert. Lol. And to be honest, I don’t even have an opinion on your statement because I don't understand your concerns about civil liberties in this instance. 🤷‍♀️

I will say that it is my suspicion that people who claim to not want something like proof of vaccination because something something a few people might not find it easy something something—ie: issues they probably don’t care about consistently or vote to empower and change—are using them as excuses. The US isn’t special, we aren’t unique. Every country has undocumented workers, people living in dire poverty, people living outside the “normal” reach of government and services. While those are undoubtedly problems, the place to fix them in is at the voting booth, not in a hypothetical debate about showing proof of vaccination when you want to dine out. 
 

But, those "fixes" come at a cost.  My dd rented an apartment outside the US.  She had to go to the local city office and register where she was living, providing documentation for who she is and exactly who is living with her.  She had an issue becuase she lives in the building Street 12--she is on the second floor-the apartment on the right (there is no apartment number that she knows of).  At the office they asked which apartment and she said on the second floor; the responded that both were empty.  At that point it was clear that the neighbors had not registered where they were living and it was a major issue for them.  

Now DD is in the process of applying for a drivers license in that country.  She filled out all of her paperwork and had her drivers license from the US.  The office wants here proof of residence at that address so that they know that this drivers license was legally given to her.  She has tried to explain that the drivers license shows that was her residence.  They want her to get a stamped, official proof of residence at that address from the city in the US.  They don't understand that doesn't exist.  

There are deifinite advantages of that, but there are disadvantages.  When you have that type of control of knowing who is who and where they are, you can implement things like vaccine passports.  All countries probabsly have some people within the country that are undocumented--but the proportion varies greatly from country to country, and it varies greatly within different regions of the US.  There are multiple and complex reasons for this lack of documentation.