s/o Early Marriage - How important do you think it is to not have sex until marriage?

[MercyA]

18 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

But these boil down to "No adultery", which is clear, and I hope we all agree with, and "No sexual immorality", which is what, exactly?  Not defining "sexual immorality" is the real problem here -- a moral code which says "don't be immoral" is just circular.  This term, "sexual immorality" is translated from the Greek word πορνεία, which isn't used frequently in other Greek texts, so the meaning is somewhat unknown, but may mean prostitution.

The word for sexual immorality is often translated fornication, which generally means sex outside of marriage. 

The Greek writers of the New Testament did have a specific word for prostitution and used it in 1 Corinthians, Revelation, and other books, too, I believe. 

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think we do all control natural urges, but I think controlling urges that are then supposed to be indulged in can leave people feeling pretty confused. 

Perhaps sometimes this way of thinking is due to bad messaging.

[Scarlett]

17 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Looking at the verse in context helps show why the writer chose to include the reference to Esau, I think. Several virtues are mentioned in this passage, including peacefulness, holiness, and sexual purity:

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done."

Sometimes the bitterness resulting from one decision can alter the course of a life (and others' lives as well).

God prophesied to Rebecca before her twins were born, telling her the older would serve the younger. That prophecy was fulfilled. Beyond that, I think a lot of the Old Testament is just a record of what happened. Not everything that happened is condoned. Rebecca was deceitful in helping Jacob and even acknowledged that a curse would result. Her actions and Jacob's lead to the fulfilling of the prophecy, but that doesn't mean we're supposed to emulate their deceit. 

This.

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think we do all control natural urges, but I think controlling urges that are then supposed to be indulged in can leave people feeling pretty confused. 

I don't think sex is something we are 'suppose' to indulge in.  Many people go their entire lives without sex.  My mom was single (and celibate) for 28 years.  From the age of 28 until she was 56. She  had a full and happy life.   I know a lot of single people who are very happy.

I think that this idea that people MUST have sex does a grave disservice to those who 1)don't want to 2) hope to remain chaste until marriage and have trouble finding a suitable mate.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don't think sex is something we are 'suppose' to indulge in.  Many people go their entire lives without sex.  My mom was single (and celibate) for 28 years.  From the age of 28 until she was 56. She  had a full and happy life.   I know a lot of single people who are very happy.

I think that this idea that people MUST have sex does a grave disservice to those who 1)don't want to 2) hope to remain chaste until marriage and have trouble finding a suitable mate.

This seems like weird nitpicking. The point is that lots of people DO want to enjoy sex and find the guilt burdensome. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

This seems like weird nitpicking. The point is that lots of people DO want to enjoy sex and find the guilt burdensome. 

Sorry I wasn't trying to nitpick....but for people who don't think it is wrong I am not sure why they feel guilt.  And those who do think it is wrong......I guess they shouldn't do it.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don't think sex is something we are 'suppose' to indulge in.  Many people go their entire lives without sex.  My mom was single (and celibate) for 28 years.  From the age of 28 until she was 56. She  had a full and happy life.   I know a lot of single people who are very happy.

I think that this idea that people MUST have sex does a grave disservice to those who 1)don't want to 2) hope to remain chaste until marriage and have trouble finding a suitable mate.

I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion either from a secular perspective, or from a Christian or Jewish perspective.  In the Bible, the very first thing that God tells people to do is "Be fruitful and multiply".  Given that there was no IVF back then, it's pretty clear that the human species is "supposed" to indulge in sex.  

That doesn't mean that there can't be guidelines, or rules, or boundaries about when and where and with who and with what sort of protection.  It also doesn't mean that individual people can't or shouldn't make other choices.  But as a species?  People are supposed to have sex. 

When I'm teaching sex ed in a religious context that's where we start.  

 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion either from a secular perspective, or from a Christian or Jewish perspective.  In the Bible, the very first thing that God tells people to do is "Be fruitful and multiply".  Given that there was no IVF back then, it's pretty clear that the human species is "supposed" to indulge in sex.  

That doesn't mean that there can't be guidelines, or rules, or boundaries about when and where and with who and with what sort of protection.  It also doesn't mean that individual people can't or shouldn't make other choices.  But as a species?  People are supposed to have sex. 

When I'm teaching sex ed in a religious context that's where we start.  

 

I wasn't really talking about our entire species.  LOL.  Obviously I know that is how we multiply.  I am talking about individuals and their choices.

[regentrude]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 I know a lot of single people who are very happy.

I just want to point out that being single does not necessarily equal a sexless life 🙂

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

I just want to point out that being single does not necessarily equal a sexless life 🙂

Um, ok.  But I was referring to the single celibate people I know.  

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Um, ok.  But I was referring to the single celibate people I know.  

Yeah .  And to say they are somehow broken or not in God’s will us not Biblical.  Look at Paul. Nothing to be ashamed about to be single. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah .  And to say they are somehow broken or not in God’s will us not Biblical.  Look at Paul. Nothing to be ashamed about to be single. 

No, being single is fine. But a misogynist zealot like Paul isn't the greatest example. he might have been a little less uptight if he had had... ummm ...relations.

Edited August 18, 2021 by regentrude

[hippymamato3]

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

You could be barred from the sacrament, from teaching, from offering prayers, or you could be excommunicated. Often if you are disfellowshipped, no one knows. Excommunication severs your “sealings” to your family and in essence says that you will not be with your children or spouse or other family members or with god after you die. It’s essentially a damnation. 
 

The problem with spiritual discipline is that it’s not applied uniformly. You could have a teen disfellowshipped for making out in one congregation and a sexual predator under no discipline in another. 
 

 

Who decides this? God? Some dude? 

[MercyA]

23 hours ago, regentrude said:

No, being single is fine. But a misogynist zealot like Paul isn't the greatest example. he might have been a little less uptight if he had had... ummm ...relations.

Some people think he was widowed. 

He also had a lot of reasons to feel uptight. 😉 

Edited August 20, 2021 by MercyA

[Terabith]

Paul is also not necessarily a great role model because he very much believed that the world was ending VERY VERY soon.  Marriage and procreation is of far less importance if you genuinely believe the Second Coming is likely to be next week, or even within the next couple years.  

I really feel like Paul is radically misunderstood by both evangelical and progressive Christians.  

[Clarita]

7 hours ago, SquirrellyMama said:

Part of me wanting them to wait is the fact that I 100% do NOT want grandchildren right now. I have no desire to babysit them, interact with them, or buy things for them. Hopefully, that will change someday. If not, I am going to be the worst grandma ever.

Not wanting to babysit, or buy things for your grandchildren does not make you the worst grandma ever or even a bad grandma. Neither my mom nor my mother in law likes to babysit my kids. Both of them (against our wishes) do love to shower the kids with gifts (although they said they weren't in the beginning). My mom doesn't like to interact with children and neither I nor her grandchildren are exceptions. I think they are both fine grandmothers.

I don't think it is right that parents expect grandparents to babysit their kids on a regular basis. If the grandparents want to that's great, but I don't really think that makes anyone a better or worse grandparent. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

No, being single is fine. But a misogynist zealot like Paul isn't the greatest example. he might have been a little less uptight if he had had... ummm ...relations.

just FYI, for people who believe that all Scripture is inspired of God, Describing Paul that way seems very disrespectful. You know—in case you were interested in how other people view things.

[regentrude]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

just FYI, for people who believe that all Scripture is inspired of God, Describing Paul that way seems very disrespectful. You know—in case you were interested in how other people view things.

And I prefer to ascribe the misogynist attitudes to the human Paul rather than consider them coming directly from God. I find Paul's attitude towards women very damaging and would hope that they're not a reflection of God's opinion on half of humanity. To me, that view is very offensive. 

[bibiche]

On 8/17/2021 at 5:08 PM, GoodGrief3 said:

The current prevalent hookup/porn culture is not doing our societal mental health any favors. But, again, humans have never been good at moderation.

I don’t understand what hookup culture has to do with porn culture. And why it isn’t doing our societal mental health any favors. Could you elaborate?

[Katy]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

No, being single is fine. But a misogynist zealot like Paul isn't the greatest example. he might have been a little less uptight if he had had... ummm ...relations.

Ha, I always thought Paul was gay.

ETA: https://qspirit.net/apostle-paul-homosexuality/

Edited August 19, 2021 by Katy

[ktgrok]

On 8/17/2021 at 5:47 PM, Terabith said:

Eh, I bought them for my sister (who was 16), my god daughter, and the 74 year old woman from church who was complaining about her husband's lack of ardor.  

You are the d*ldo fairy, lol!

On 8/17/2021 at 7:38 PM, Tanaqui said:

I don't think it's important at all, and I think that the "used chewing gum" analogy or anything similar is actively damaging to young people.

As for birth control failing specifically, birth control fails when people who normally use a certain form of birth control forget or choose not to use it in one particular instance. That's why the lab use of condoms is like 98% and the real world use is something like 75% - because that low number counts everybody who plans to use condoms but then decides not to one time.

 

Um...I've had condoms fail. With two different husbands. It really does happen! 

I know two people that have Nuva Ring babies, multiple pill babies, and one of my kids was conceived following all the rules to avoid conception in that Take Charge of Your Fertility book. 

Plenty of boardies have birth control babies as well. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by ktgrok

[GracieJane]

10 hours ago, Danae said:

For a different Christian perspective . . . I grew up (and still am) very active in church.  Sunday morning worship, Sunday night youth group, Wednesday night Christian ed and music practice.  Summer church camp and VBS. 

The topic of sex rarely if ever came up.  Virginity, purity, etc never mentioned.  I don't know if any of my contemporaries were having sex as teenagers, but if they were they were keeping it very discreet.  No pregnancies, no teen marriages.  The obsession some Christian groups in the US seem to have with sex and porn is very weird to me. If any of my kids' teachers or leaders start taking things in that direction (although it seems unlikely) we'll be bowing out of that activity.

I actually agree with this. Foucault had a lot of questionable ideas, but in The History of Sexuality he wrote about how the Church was historically falsely accused of burying sex in an attempt to repress lust when in reality churches are obsessed with it, cataloging it, confessing its sins, litigating and codifying it to the most minute details. I cringe hearing mega-pastors pontificate about „how great sex is!“ and „God made it good!“ and „the marriage bed is undefiled!!“, etc. I can’t think of anything men preach with more enthusiasm than Song of Solomon.

Edited August 19, 2021 by GracieJane

[TexasProud]

11 hours ago, regentrude said:

No, being single is fine. But a misogynist zealot like Paul isn't the greatest example. he might have been a little less uptight if he had had... ummm ...relations.

Yeah, I am only going to give a brief response here, but this is really a spin off thread if anyone wants to discuss it. I used to think that about Paul,  but have since changed my mind. That is a cherry-picking, not looking at the context/culture view. 

My prof has done a ton of research into all of this:

http://aspire2.com/genderandfaith/

Here is some of her scholarly work if you have access to scholarly journals.  I loved her work on Artemis and it has HUGE ramifications for how we interpret things. I believe she is going to be writing a book on the subject. 
 

• “The First-Century Ephesian Artemis: Ramifications of Her Identity.” Bibliotheca Sacra (172:688). 2015.
• “Book Review: She can teach: empowering women to teach the Scriptures effectively.” Bibliotheca Sacra (171:683). 2014. 316-34.
• “The Identity of Artemis of the Ephesians in First-Century Ephesus.” Bibliotheca Sacra (172:687). 1753. 316

[ktgrok]

I think God made rules around this for our own good and protection. That pregnancy in particular, but other issues involved with sexuality as well are best handled in the context of a loving adult relationship with the security - financially and legally and emotionally - of marriage. 

That said, I also know that marriage today is not always the only way to secure that kind of security. We have legal access to child support now, outside of marriage, that wasn't possible in biblical times. We have a society that won't ostracize a woman for having a baby out of wedlock nor will her future be ruined if she is found out to have sex outside of marriage. She is able to work to provide her a child if need be. We have health clinics and insurance that allow for the treatment of sexually transmitted diseases. 

So, as I feel this was a safety rule as much as anything, and some of the context and consequences of premarital sex are not the same as they were, my feelings on the importance of it are different. 

That does not mean I think God is a fan of casual sex - but I don't think he gets his holy knickers in a knot over a committed couple who are respectful of each other and care for each other having that kind of intimacy. And I don't think he ever thinks, "yuck! she's ruined" or "how awful" about humans having consensual sex. If my kids forget their helmet as they run to their bikes they are forgetful, and being reckless, but not evil or bad or immoral. Sex with consenting adults is not immoral, then, to me, but not "best practices" when it isn't in the context of a committed relationship with someone you know well and trust. 

In full disclosure, I've had both casual and relationship based intimacy and only regret the former - it was reckless in the situations I had it and could greatly have complicated my life. See aforementioned safety rules. 

 

[ktgrok]

Also, thank you for this thread. I'd not come up with quite how I wanted to phrase all this - my oldest is not religious at all so God didn't come into the discussions with him really, or haven't in a long time, but that's not true of my younger kids. 

Typing my response with bleary half awake eyes helped me grasp my own thoughts on this a bit more. 

[MercyA]

 

20 hours ago, GracieJane said:

I actually agree with this. Foucault had a lot of questionable ideas, but in The History of Sexuality he wrote about how the Church was historically falsely accused of burying sex in an attempt to repress lust when in reality churches are obsessed with it, cataloging it, confessing its sins, litigating and codifying it to the most minute details. I cringe hearing mega-pastors pontificate about „how great sex is!“ and „God made it good!“ and „the marriage bed is undefiled!!“, etc. I can’t think of anything men preach with more enthusiasm than Song of Solomon.

Yuck. I would not want to have such a man as a pastor. I'm fine with pastors teaching on it with tact and with a view to their audience when it comes up in Scripture; otherwise, that kind of focus and obsession is tacky and misplaced. IMHO.

[SquirrellyMama]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

 

Yuck. I would not want to have such a man as a pastor. I'm fine with pastors teaching on it with tact and with a view to their audience when it comes up in Scripture; otherwise, that kind of focus and obsession is tacky and misplaced. IMHO.

I wonder if they are trying to hard to swing the pendulum the other way with talking about sex. I feel the message is it is bad before marriage, so they have to make it sound super duper great after marriage. 

I do agree that many churches are obsessed with talking about sex. One church we attended had so many sermons on homosexuality. I felt they had an unhealthy obsession with preaching against it when most of the congregation was committing a plethora of other sins.