any one know what protocol is for police and this situation?

[ktgrok]

There was a shooting of a 15 yr old by the police. She was allegedly trying to stab someone. I've watched some of the footage of the dashcam, and what I can't figure out is, are police supposed to shoot if they don't have a clean shot? What I mean is, regardless of if it was appropriate to shoot in general - the girl and her victim are right up against each other, moving quickly turning and such. It seems VERY likely he could have actually shot the victim he was supposedly trying to save, rather than, or in addition to, the person he was intending to shoot. VERY likely. 

In my head, I'd rather be stabbed by a 15 yr old with a steak knife or whatever, than shot by police with a 9mm or larger bullet at that range.If he had hit the other girl, or both, would he be in trouble for that? Are they allowed/supposed to shoot in that situation? 

I truly only have my massive/obsessive reading of police procedurals/suspense novels to go by, which I realize are fiction. So, anyone know?

This is one of the stills, you can se how they are wrapped around each other - but then add in that they are BOTH moving quickly...it seems odds are about even at least one of the bullets would hit the wrong one. My husband is a really really good shot with a hand gun (target practice, guns are locked in biometric safe), and I wouldn't want him to take that shot if I were that girl in pink.  

Edited April 21, 2021 by ktgrok

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

There was a shooting of a 15 yr old by the police. She was allegedly trying to stab someone. I've watched some of the footage of the dashcam, and what I can't figure out is, are police supposed to shoot if they don't have a clean shot? What I mean is, regardless of if it was appropriate to shoot in general - the girl and her victim are right up against each other, moving quickly turning and such. It seems VERY likely he could have actually shot the victim he was supposedly trying to save, rather than, or in addition to, the person he was intending to shoot. VERY likely. 

In my head, I'd rather be stabbed by a 15 yr old with a steak knife or whatever, than shot by police with a 9mm or larger bullet at that range.If he had hit the other girl, or both, would he be in trouble for that? Are they allowed/supposed to shoot in that situation? 

I truly only have my massive/obsessive reading of police procedurals/suspense novels to go by, which I realize are fiction. So, anyone know?

This is the incident in Columbus? The girl who was murdered by the police was the one who called them because she feared for her safety.
 

It’s all too much. 😞 

[ktgrok]

Just now, MEmama said:

This is the incident in Columbus? The girl who was murdered by the police was the one who called them because she feared for her safety.
 

It’s all too much. 😞 

Yup. 

But without wading into the whole shooting a 15 yr old girl bit...I'm trying to figure out if EVEN IF that part were justified, he'd be supposed to take that shot. Or if he panicked, or what. 

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yup. 

But without wading into the whole shooting a 15 yr old girl bit...I'm trying to figure out if EVEN IF that part were justified, he'd be supposed to take that shot. Or if he panicked, or what. 

Idk. It doesn’t sound warranted.

Then again, it rarely is. Which is why police is many (most?) western countries aren’t armed. Their freaking job is to literally to protect. How can shooting into that kind of situation possibly be a responsible action? 
 

 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Idk. It doesn’t sound warranted.

Then again, it rarely is. Which is why police is many (most?) western countries aren’t armed. Their freaking job is to literally to protect. How can shooting into that kind of situation possibly be a responsible action? 
 

 

I know that if I were that girl in pink, my husband would try to get the knife from the 15 yr old girl, not risk a shot that could kill me. 

[Harriet Vane]

I do not know what the police protocol is. 

But I can tell you that I would not find shooting to be warranted. I think a strong hose with water could break up a close-contact situation more effectively. I also reflect on a friend of mine who worked in a high-intensity boarding school for mentally ill, violent teens. Staff did not carry guns. Rather, they were highly trained in take-down and restraint techniques. My friend feels that even those hands-on options are often not necessary if a wise counselor offers options for de-escalation. (I am aware such options are ineffective when the person is under the influence of drugs or alcohol.)

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, Harriet Vane said:

I do not know what the police protocol is. 

But I can tell you that I would not find shooting to be warranted. I think a strong hose with water could break up a close-contact situation more effectively. I also reflect on a friend of mine who worked in a high-intensity boarding school for mentally ill, violent teens. Staff did not carry guns. Rather, they were highly trained in take-down and restraint techniques. My friend feels that even those hands-on options are often not necessary if a wise counselor offers options for de-escalation. (I am aware such options are ineffective when the person is under the influence of drugs or alcohol.)

I really wish this was a bigger focus of law enforcement training.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Harriet Vane said:

I do not know what the police protocol is. 

But I can tell you that I would not find shooting to be warranted. I think a strong hose with water could break up a close-contact situation more effectively. I also reflect on a friend of mine who worked in a high-intensity boarding school for mentally ill, violent teens. Staff did not carry guns. Rather, they were highly trained in take-down and restraint techniques. My friend feels that even those hands-on options are often not necessary if a wise counselor offers options for de-escalation. (I am aware such options are ineffective when the person is under the influence of drugs or alcohol.)

I actually had the same thought about a hose! Or throwing a trash can at them, or freaking pepper spray, before shooting. 

I just cannot see how firing a weapon 4 times in that close quarters with that many bystanders running around in all directions is good gun safety. But again, coming at this from a civilian training in guns, not law enforcement. 

[Harriet Vane]

Just now, ktgrok said:

I actually had the same thought about a hose! Or throwing a trash can at them, or freaking pepper spray, before shooting. 

I just cannot see how firing a weapon 4 times in that close quarters with that many bystanders running around in all directions is good gun safety. But again, coming at this from a civilian training in guns, not law enforcement. 

I agree. 

I enjoyed martial arts fairly extensively, though I gave it up about a year ago due to spine issues. What I learned in an intensive self-defense course mirrors the wisdom my friend shared with me. Often the best response to a situation is patiently offering options for de-escalation, and if the situation is intense and violent (like the situation you shared in your OP) then take-down techniques or distraction (like water or pepper spray) may be more effective. In the scenario you shared, a gun seems like the worst possible option and protects only the police officer who isn't actually under any threat in that situation anyway.

[ktgrok]

Just now, Harriet Vane said:

In the scenario you shared, a gun seems like the worst possible option and protects only the police officer who isn't actually under any threat in that situation anyway.

that! That is what was bothering me. You are right. I mean, he did manage not to shoot anyone else, but every time I see that footage I can't help but think it was luck. Had the girl with the knife pulled the other girl around, or the other girl moved a few inches the wrong way, it could be two dead girls. 

[WildflowerMom]

I don’t think a gun was the right choice in this situation.   Like you said, he could’ve easily hit the other girl.   
eta: and four shots??  Just no.  

Edited April 21, 2021 by WildflowerMom

[Katy]

They have a duty to protect the life of the person getting stabbed from the person who wouldn’t put down the weapon.  They train to be very accurate with a gun for situations like this. 

I only saw a brief clip on the morning news, and I don’t know details. I was relieved to hear that the state police had taken over the investigation. There will be no local cover up. 

[HeartString]

Paper spray or a taser would have been a better options.  Firing a gun into that mayhem was a terrible idea.  If someone had zigged instead of zagged you could have ended up with ricochets or shooting a bystander.  Someone could have jumped in at the last minute.  There was no clear.  

[HeartString]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

They have a duty to protect the life of the person getting stabbed from the person who wouldn’t put down the weapon.  They train to be very accurate with a gun for situations like this. 

I only saw a brief clip on the morning news, and I don’t know details. I was relieved to hear that the state police had taken over the investigation. There will be no local cover up. 

Even with the training I’ve seen stats that police only hit about 37% of the shots they take in close range like this.  That’s not “very accurate”. 
They are mostly training at shooting targets and don’t do as much tactical training as we might think.  
 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/may/25/shannon-watts/do-more-7-10-police-bullets-miss-their-mark-gun-co/

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by HeartString

[Katy]

If you refuse to put down a weapon the presence of a cop, and you continue to act aggressively it’s basically suicide by cop. He was at close range. My guess is in this situation his judgment said he knew he could be accurate. 
 

I’m sure more than one journalist has the same questions as you re local procedure & it will be covered in the next few days. 

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Paper spray or a taser would have been a better options.  Firing a gun into that mayhem was a terrible idea.  If someone had zigged instead of zagged you could have ended up with ricochets or shooting a bystander.  Someone could have jumped in at the last minute.  There was no clear.  

A taser doesn’t work when the criminal has a hold of a victim. I suspect that if he’d used pepper spray and she’d murdered the girl everyone would be outraged the victim wasn’t protected. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

A taser doesn’t work when the criminal has a hold of a victim. I suspect that if he’d used pepper spray and she’d murdered the girl everyone would be outraged the victim wasn’t protected. 

I'm not sure what you mean, that it doesn't work? 

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

If you refuse to put down a weapon the presence of a cop, and you continue to act aggressively it’s basically suicide by cop. He was at close range. My guess is in this situation his judgment said he knew he could be accurate. 
 

I’m sure more than one journalist has the same questions as you re local procedure & it will be covered in the next few days. 

I'm really not diving into if she should have been shot, as much as, was it the right call for the other bystanders, the person in the pink shirt in particular, but given how many others were moving around the scene, they could have ended up in the line of fire in a split second as well. 

At this point I'm seeing a lot of discussion in if shooting her was justified, but not any about the bystander issue. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by ktgrok

[HeartString]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

A taser doesn’t work when the criminal has a hold of a victim. I suspect that if he’d used pepper spray and she’d murdered the girl everyone would be outraged the victim wasn’t protected. 

There was a good chance the officer could have killed both of them with his gun though.  

[Katy]

So what my dad always told me was, “Never draw a weapon unless you’re sure someone is going to die, and you’ve decided to make it the criminal instead of an innocent victim.”

Also, if they decide to shoot they’re going to shoot until you’re dead. They will not shoot you in the leg so you can continue to kill. The criminal needs to die or you don’t pull a gun, you do something else. 

I don’t know how different it is in Ohio or wherever vs in Florida. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

I'm not sure what you mean, that it doesn't work? 

The victim will get tased too, the constriction of the muscles it could cause would mean the weapon would be out if control and could kill someone. 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, HeartString said:

There was a good chance the officer could have killed both of them with his gun though.  

That’s an assumption.  The officer made a judgment call in a split second, and I think it was by the book.  We’ll see in the coming days. 

[HeartString]

Just now, Katy said:

So what my dad always told me was, “Never draw a weapon unless you’re sure someone is going to die, and you’ve decided to make it the criminal instead of an innocent victim.”

Also, if they decide to shoot they’re going to shoot until you’re dead. They will not shoot you in the leg so you can continue to kill. The criminal needs to die or you don’t pull a gun, you do something else. 

I don’t know how different it is in Ohio or wherever vs in Florida. 

I think you’re missing the point of the discussion though.  It’s not “was it ok that he shot the girl with the knife”.  Its “was the risk he took to the other people right next to her appropriate.”  Was he being reckless to the potential knife victim and bystanders?   

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm really not diving into if she should have been shot, as much as, was it the right call for the other bystanders, the person in the pink shirt in particular, but given how many others were moving around the scene, they could have ended up in the line of fire in a split second as well. 

People don’t yank a person into a line of fire at close range, the bullets travel faster than that. It’s not like an action movie. 

[Katy]

Just now, HeartString said:

I think you’re missing the point of the discussion though.  It’s not “was it ok that he shot the girl with the knife”.  Its “was the risk he took to the other people right next to her appropriate.”  Was he being reckless to the potential knife victim and bystanders?   

I don’t think it was wrong. I think police are taught to take the shot if they think they have a clear shot, and not to if they don’t. He took the shot and he was accurate. 

[Lecka]

Honestly I think that since the officer made the shot he intended to make — I think he gets the benefit of the doubt that he was justified in thinking he could make the shot.  He did make the shot.  
 

I think it does show he had a clear shot.  
 

Sure, maybe he got lucky.  But maybe from where he was standing he was sure he had a clear shot.  I think it is very possible at least.  

[Katy]

I’m assuming it was a he. I only saw a few moments if the body cam on the news this morning. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Lecka said:

Honestly I think that since the officer made the shot he intended to make — I think he gets the benefit of the doubt that he was justified in thinking he could make the shot.  He did make the shot.  
 

I think it does show he had a clear shot.  
 

Sure, maybe he got lucky.  But maybe from where he was standing he was sure he had a clear shot.  I think it is very possible at least.  

 

Just now, Katy said:

I don’t think it was wrong. I think police are taught to take the shot if they think they have a clear shot, and not to if they don’t. He took the shot and he was accurate. 

I'm mostly wondering what the protocol is in that situation - there must be rules, right?

 

[Katy]

The thing about body cams is that people are going to learn that police work isn’t like the movies. Most of it is a judgment call, and the guidelines are different than Hollywood has led us to believe. When you’re in the process of stabbing someone a gun is the textbook choice. 

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

I'm mostly wondering what the protocol is in that situation - there must be rules, right?

 

I think the rule is to shoot the person murdering a victim with a knife if you can do so without killing the victim. 

[Pawz4me]

8 minutes ago, Katy said:

A taser doesn’t work when the criminal has a hold of a victim. I suspect that if he’d used pepper spray and she’d murdered the girl everyone would be outraged the victim wasn’t protected. 

 

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

The victim will get tased too, the constriction of the muscles it could cause would mean the weapon would be out if control and could kill someone. 

I'm far from an expert, but I have done a little research on tasers. And I don't think the above is correct. I believe the person touching someone who is tasered wouldn't feel a thing. Here's a discussion on a message board that seems to explain it (I just scanned it, but I think it covers the issue). That link corroborates what I've read elsewhere, but ATM I can't find a better explanation.

Now . .  could being tasered cause someone to lose control of a weapon and accidentally fire it? That I do not know.

[Lecka]

I really assume that he was waiting for a moment when he had a clear shot.  If he hadn’t waited for a moment he had a clear shot — then he would have likely harmed bystanders.  
 

You know?

 

I would assume he waited for a clear shot and I would assume protocols allow that in general.

 

I mean — I am making assumptions, but it is what I assume.  
 

 

[HeartString]

I don’t necessarily think he was wrong to shoot. There was eminent, possible deadly physical harm to one of the parties, he had to do something.  He chose to shoot and I don’t necessarily think that was wrong.  I’m not sure it was right, but I don’t think it was completely wrong.  

 

 I do wonder if there wasn’t a way for him to have done something that didn’t result in anyone dying?  

[Lecka]

I think it is weird logic to say — some people don’t have the capability to do x, so nobody should ever do x.

I think if someone knows they can do something, they should do it.

If someone knows they probably can’t do something, they probably shouldn’t do it.

If this guy went “pow pow pow pow” and shot 4 people and never hit the intended target, I would think it sounded like he shouldn’t have done it.  But he made the shot.  
 

I think I have other questions but I don’t question that he was able to do what he intended to do.  

[WildflowerMom]

13 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

 

I'm mostly wondering what the protocol is in that situation - there must be rules, right?

 

I’m sure there are rules for probably just about every scenario.   That doesn’t mean they will be followed. 

[Katy]

12 minutes ago, HeartString said:

 I do wonder if there wasn’t a way for him to have done something that didn’t result in anyone dying?  

I don’t think so, not when she was in the process of stabbing someone. 

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I think it is weird logic to say — some people don’t have the capability to do x, so nobody should ever do x.

I think if someone knows they can do something, they should do it.

If someone knows they probably can’t do something, they probably shouldn’t do it.

If this guy went “pow pow pow pow” and shot 4 people and never hit the intended target, I would think it sounded like he shouldn’t have done it.  But he made the shot.  
 

I think I have other questions but I don’t question that he was able to do what he intended to do.  

Ok, and that may well be. But is the official protocol "shoot if you think you can make the shot"or are there other rules at play?

I have no idea if he followed protocol or not, because I don't know what that protocol is (outside some great novels) and so I'm wondering/asking. 

Like I said, I know the answer for a civilian is to NOT shoot in that situation, but not sure what the rules are for cops. 

[MEmama]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/us/ohio-columbus-police-shooting-15-year-old/index.html
 

If an officer is "faced with someone employing deadly force, deadly force can be the response," Woods told reporters.

 

[MEmama]

Personally I question how deadly a knife is when used by a 15 year old girl. I can only imagine actually stabbing someone—never mind plunging a knife into someone’s body, and in a location that might be deadly— must be a very difficult thing to accomplish.
 

Would a trained officer truly not have enough time/strength/ability to get the knife away from her? She’s a kid for goodness sake! There was no possible way to diffuse the situation? There could be no possible other recourse than to *kill* her? I don’t believe it for a second. What the hell are they trained for??!

This.has.to.stop.

eta: sorry Katie, I think I’m going off topic. I’m just so heartbroken right now. And mad. I didn’t intend to derail. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by MEmama

[Katy]

17 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, and that may well be. But is the official protocol "shoot if you think you can make the shot"or are there other rules at play?

I have no idea if he followed protocol or not, because I don't know what that protocol is (outside some great novels) and so I'm wondering/asking. 

Like I said, I know the answer for a civilian is to NOT shoot in that situation, but not sure what the rules are for cops. 

I believe the answer is yes, if you can protect a victim from bring stabbed to death, shoot to kill the stabber first. 

[ktgrok]

9 minutes ago, MEmama said:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/us/ohio-columbus-police-shooting-15-year-old/index.html
 

If an officer is "faced with someone employing deadly force, deadly force can be the response," Woods told reporters.

 

Yes, but I'm wondering if there are conditions regarding the risk of collateral damage, for lack of a better term. 

This is seriously not me trying to judge this guy, for all I know he was doing what he was trained to do. I'm just trying to understand what that training specifies. 

I'm also now wondering if police use hollow point rounds? Less likely chance of a bullet going through one person into another, but much more deadly if you do hit the wrong person. Trade off for sure - less chance of hitting extra people, but more deadly....so not sure which way police go on that?

 

[Katy]

The first 7 links on Google say yes, police use hollow points.

I was taught using hollow points. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Personally I question how deadly a knife is when used by a 15 year old girl. I can only imagine actually stabbing someone—never mind plunging a knife into someone’s body, and in a location that might be deadly— must be a very difficult thing to accomplish.
 

Would a trained officer truly not have enough time/strength/ability to get the knife away from her? She’s a kid for goodness sake! There was no possible way to diffuse the situation? There could be no possible other recourse than to *kill* her? I don’t believe it for a second. What the hell are they trained for??!

This.has.to.stop.

eta: sorry Katie, I think I’m going off topic. I’m just so heartbroken right now. And mad. I didn’t intend to derail. 

I get it. It's really upsetting. And a valid question/concern. Just a different one. I don't mind both being discussed! 

There is also the issue of, is that girl in pink going to have more trauma from having someone killed inches from her, or from a non lethal stab wound. I don't know. 

One person posted on facebook that they would rather see a grown man in a protective vest get stabbed than see him kill one child in front of other children. And I think that's a valid perspective, as I said I think my own family would react the same, but I also understand the cop with th potential to be stabbed feels differently perhaps. I want cops all to be heroes, but that doesn't mean I an DEMAND they be willing to be stabbed I guess...but I can want thm to be willing to take that risk versus killing a teen. 

It's a lot to take in, and maybe that is why my brain wants to focus on the "what are the rules/training protocols regarding when to risk bystanders/victims" and what bullets they use rather than that issue.

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Personally I question how deadly a knife is when used by a 15 year old girl. I can only imagine actually stabbing someone—never mind plunging a knife into someone’s body, and in a location that might be deadly— must be a very difficult thing to accomplish.
 

Would a trained officer truly not have enough time/strength/ability to get the knife away from her? She’s a kid for goodness sake! There was no possible way to diffuse the situation? There could be no possible other recourse than to *kill* her? I don’t believe it for a second. What the hell are they trained for??!

This.has.to.stop.

I don’t think he was close enough.  I don’t disagree that procedures need to be reevaluated and possibly changed. I do think he went by his training. 

I certainly think it can be easier to kill someone with a knife than you think. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

The first 7 links on Google say yes, police use hollow points.

I was taught using hollow points. 

I wasn't taught on them, but we have them. In suburban houses with thin walls, if ever there was a reason to shoot an intruder (very unlikely) it would prevent a bullet from going through a wall to hit another person, hopefully. But it sure is a scary trade off. 

[HeartString]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don’t think he was close enough.  I don’t disagree that procedures need to be reevaluated and possibly changed. I do think he went by his training. 

I certainly think it can be easier to kill someone with a knife than you think. 

Is that why pepper spray wouldn't have been effective?  I don't love the idea of the potential stabbing victim getting pepper sprayed in the process, but I like that idea more than someone dying. 

[Farrar]

I don't buy that the other girl was at risk of dying within the next minute. I agree with you, Katie, that she was at a much greater risk of being hit by the cop shooting than being killed by that knife.

I don't buy that there weren't other ways to de-escalate this.

Can anyone clarify if she was under the influence? I've seen some references to that on social media but didn't see it in any of the write ups in the news. It doesn't change my thinking about anyone deserving anything, but it would explain why she didn't have the presence of mind to stop when the police came. Of course, so does being 15 and being really mad. Angry 15 yos are pretty high on my irrational scale. Like, possibly higher than people on mind-altering drugs.

[Shelydon]

I watched the whole video, the officer had a completely clear shot.  Someone who has not handled firearms might have missed, but anyone with decent training and regular practice would not have hit the other person. 

 

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Idk. It doesn’t sound warranted.

Then again, it rarely is. Which is why police is many (most?) western countries aren’t armed. Their freaking job is to literally to protect. How can shooting into that kind of situation possibly be a responsible action? 
 

 

There aren't any other countries (western or otherwise) where there are more guns than people, either, though. I'm not sure we can talk about the militarization of the police in the US without talking about our absurdly heavily armed civilian population. It's a big, complicated, deadly mess. (Not talking about this particular situation, just the whole extremely messed up situation in the US)

[Katy]

1 minute ago, HeartString said:

Is that why pepper spray wouldn't have been effective?  I don't love the idea of the potential stabbing victim getting pepper sprayed in the process, but I like that idea more than someone dying. 

I don’t think police are taught to choose non-lethal force in lethal situations. I know I’ve seen that in movies and tv shows, and the hero cop always saves everyone and everyone lives, but that’s fiction, and the plot point is always supervisors are angry they didn’t follow procedures but no one is in trouble because the gamble worked.  

I’ve been accidentally pepper sprayed, in high school by a dolt with the locker next to me who wasn’t paying attention to her keys.  Pepper spray isn’t strong enough to stop someone in the process of stabbing even IF he was close enough.  It was such a joke I think people pepper sprayed other students as a joke several times in the following week until the school board finally banned the stuff. 
 

Police grade mace is stronger.