mRNA and DNA

[Hyacinth]

Talk to me, Science Hive.

I've read the mainstream articles on how the current Covid vaccinations do not alter DNA, and I've read the outlier articles that suggest otherwise.

In a 2017 TED talk, Tal Zaks, the (now) former Chief Medical Officer of Moderna, essentially praised the possibilities of mRNA in rewriting DNA code. You can search for the talk, but I'll warn you . . . it's usually attached to anti-vax, conspiracy-friendly commentary. If you can ignore the inflammatory commentary on either side and listen to what he's saying, can you then explain it to me?

Is it possible that mRNA therapies/vaccinations can alter DNA? If so, what are the implications--good and bad--of this possibility?

 

[vonfirmath]

I'm not sure I understand how mRNA can alter DNA.  mRNA typically has a role in protein synthesis.  It matches with a part of the DNA strand to create a template that then passes out of the nucleus to the ribosomes and is used to make proteins.

[catz]

This is a good explanation.  Gene therapy is much more complicated.  
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2021/01/11/covid-19-vaccines-cant-alter-your-dna-heres-why/?sh=84c390124911

[HeartString]

I think they are confusing the mRNA vaccines and how they work with CRISPR which is different. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cnew02

[Hyacinth]

1 minute ago, FuzzyCatz said:

This is a good explanation.  Gene therapy is much more complicated.  
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victoriaforster/2021/01/11/covid-19-vaccines-cant-alter-your-dna-heres-why/?sh=84c390124911

Are you saying that what the Moderna exec was talking about was gene therapy and the covid vaccine is something different? Maybe that is the key to understanding . . . 

[catz]

Just now, Hyacinth said:

Are you saying that what the Moderna exec was talking about was gene therapy and the covid vaccine is something different? Maybe that is the key to understanding . . . 

Possibly?  I haven’t heard the interview.   There is some explanation of how gene therapy differs in the Forbes article.  

[HeartString]

3 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

Are you saying that what the Moderna exec was talking about was gene therapy and the covid vaccine is something different? Maybe that is the key to understanding . . . 

In the video that I'm watching it seems like he is talking about both things in the same talk, because they are related, but not the same thing.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Cnew02

[Danae]

You can watch the Ted talk on the Ted.com site.

There’s nothing in it about changing DNA. He does say that if DNA is damaged mRNA therapies can convey to the cells the information that they would have been getting from healthy DNA.  

 

 

[Hyacinth]

1 minute ago, Cnew02 said:

In the video that I'm watching it seems like he is talking about both things in the same talk, because they are related, but not the same thing.

Thanks for validating my confusion :).

I think I need to re-read the article @FuzzyCatz linked to better understand how the vaccine differs from other uses of mRNA therapies.

[vonfirmath]

Yes. mRNA is a "copier" of information on the DNA Strand.

 

My confusion stems from it is like someone saying that a photocopier can change the original document.

 

[Ottakee]

24 minutes ago, Cnew02 said:

I think they are confusing the mRNA vaccines and how they work with CRISPR which is different. 

I am watching the CRISPR technique as that is the best know hope for curing or stopping my girls' degenerative mitochondrial myopathies.

[Danae]

38 minutes ago, Hyacinth said:

Talk to me, Science Hive.

I've read the mainstream articles on how the current Covid vaccinations do not alter DNA, and I've read the outlier articles that suggest otherwise.

In a 2017 TED talk, Tal Zaks, the (now) former Chief Medical Officer of Moderna, essentially praised the possibilities of mRNA in rewriting DNA code. You can search for the talk, but I'll warn you . . . it's usually attached to anti-vax, conspiracy-friendly commentary. If you can ignore the inflammatory commentary on either side and listen to what he's saying, can you then explain it to me?

Is it possible that mRNA therapies/vaccinations can alter DNA? If so, what are the implications--good and bad--of this possibility?

 

I just watched the video, straight through.  The part that I’ve bonded in your OP is just not there.  There is nothing about changing DNA.  Except in the title.  Which makes me wonder if this is like newspapers who hire separate headline editors who don’t always read the article.  
 

mRNA carries messages from DNA to the parts of the cells that build things.  The three examples of treatments he talks about are:

1)  Giving instructions to the cells to build replicas of a virus in order to stimulate an immune response.  This is what the COVID vaccines do, although his example was a flu vaccine.  
 

2) Developing a vaccine to stimulate an immune response to cancer cells.  This is where he talks about sequencing the human genome, but it’s not to edit DNA, it’s to locate where an individual’s DNA is damaged to be able to target the immune response to those damaged (cancerous) cells.

3) A rare disease where kids are actually missing a part of a gene.  This one is where I actually poked around more, because it seems like editing the gene would be good here.  But that’s not what mRNA does.  Here is a paper on the mouse study he talks about.  Notice that they’re studying the long-term safety of repeated infusions of mRNA.  That’s because it the treatment doesn’t change the DNA, it just provides the missing information.  And because mRNA doesn’t hang around in the body it needs to be an ongoing treatment.  “Full realization of the potential of systemic mRNA therapy requires the ability to achieve long-term efficacy and safety upon repeated systemic dosing of mRNA, due to the limited duration of mRNA-encoded proteins.”

 

[HeartString]

24 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

I am watching the CRISPR technique as that is the best know hope for curing or stopping my girls' degenerative mitochondrial myopathies.

It’s got amazing potential! I’ve been listening to the reports of the success they’ve had using it against sickle cell.  

[EKS]

19 minutes ago, Danae said:

I just watched the video, straight through.  The part that I’ve bonded in your OP is just not there.  There is nothing about changing DNA.  Except in the title.  Which makes me wonder if this is like newspapers who hire separate headline editors who don’t always read the article.

This.  All three examples are of different applications of the same thing, which is injecting mRNA that codes for the desired protein and having the body make that protein using the instructions in the injected mRNA.  So this is in fact the opposite of changing DNA--it is bypassing the DNA altogether.

Edited April 7, 2021 by EKS

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, Danae said:

I just watched the video, straight through.  The part that I’ve bonded in your OP is just not there.  There is nothing about changing DNA.  Except in the title.  Which makes me wonder if this is like newspapers who hire separate headline editors who don’t always read the article.  
 

mRNA carries messages from DNA to the parts of the cells that build things.  The three examples of treatments he talks about are:

1)  Giving instructions to the cells to build replicas of a virus in order to stimulate an immune response.  This is what the COVID vaccines do, although his example was a flu vaccine.  
 

 

 

Wait, I thought the Covid vaccines were the first to use the mRNA process?

[Danae]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Wait, I thought the Covid vaccines were the first to use the mRNA process?

I think they are the first to be widely released.  But others were already being tested, which is how the COVID ones were able to be developed so quickly.  

[Not_a_Number]

I will say that I've been reading about mRNA with DD8, so my information isn't in any way biased -- it's like, out of a graphic novel about DNA released way before the pandemic. 

What everyone is saying is correct. DNA can result in mRNA being sent as messengers, but it's not the other way: DNA creates mRNA, but mRNA doesn't affect the DNA. The mRNA is "messenger" RNA -- it's telling your body to make certain proteins (in the cytoplasm of the cell, if I remember correctly.) If you inject mRNA, then your body is using the mRNA from the shot instead of mRNA created it via DNA, that's all. 

For the biologists in here, did I more or less get that right? It's not my expertise, just something we've been studying. 

[I talk to the trees]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I will say that I've been reading about mRNA with DD8, so my information isn't in any way biased -- it's like, out of a graphic novel about DNA released way before the pandemic. 

What everyone is saying is correct. DNA can result in mRNA being sent as messengers, but it's not the other way: DNA creates mRNA, but mRNA doesn't affect the DNA. The mRNA is "messenger" RNA -- it's telling your body to make certain proteins (in the cytoplasm of the cell, if I remember correctly.) If you inject mRNA, then your body is using the mRNA from the shot instead of mRNA created it via DNA, that's all. 

For the biologists in here, did I more or less get that right? It's not my expertise, just something we've been studying. 

Bio major dd says to tell you you got it right! 👍🏻

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, I talk to the trees said:

Bio major dd says to tell you you got it right! 👍🏻

Excellent, thanks for checking! 

I'm really looking forward to learning my sciences properly. They came easily to me in high school, but I was so preoccupied with math competitions that I didn't bother to learn them well, and I haven't retained them. I really regret it now. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Penelope]

2 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

 

Is it possible that mRNA therapies/vaccinations can alter DNA? If so, what are the implications--good and bad--of this possibility?

 

No. Not unless there is something misunderstood about the basic science that scientists have known from the 1960’s. So, no.

The idea of a new technology is a little disconcerting. It’s absolutely amazing technology, though. 

 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Wait, I thought the Covid vaccines were the first to use the mRNA process?

T

 

31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Excellent, thanks for checking! 

I'm really looking forward to learning my sciences properly. They came easily to me in high school, but I was so preoccupied with math competitions that I didn't bother to learn them well, and I haven't retained them. I really regret it now. 

And for me, so much of the science that was taught in my schools was in fact wrong-- some because the science evolved since I was in school and some because they dumbed down the science and by doing that, taught wrong ideas.

[TravelingChris]

10 minutes ago, Penelope said:

No. Not unless there is something misunderstood about the basic science that scientists have known from the 1960’s. So, no.

The idea of a new technology is a little disconcerting. It’s absolutely amazing technology, though. 

 

And it isn't new technology- just the widespread use of the technology.  It has been around for a few decades.  (First in mice in 1990)   They have had succesful trial with various animals and various diseases like Hepatitis, etc.  But as you know, delivery of the vaccines is complicated (needing very low temperatures) and they also had problems with the delivery into the body as in what should be used to carry the mRNA.  

[Penelope]

4 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

And it isn't new technology- just the widespread use of the technology.  It has been around for a few decades.  (First in mice in 1990)   They have had succesful trial with various animals and various diseases like Hepatitis, etc.  But as you know, delivery of the vaccines is complicated (needing very low temperatures) and they also had problems with the delivery into the body as in what should be used to carry the mRNA.  

Well, sort of. Some attempts with therapies pre-vaccine caused harm to humans. 
 

The use of mRNA in a lipid nanoparticle as a vaccination method is brand spanking new. A couple of years.

[Hyacinth]

Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to explain. So helpful! 

[Hyacinth]

2 hours ago, Danae said:

I just watched the video, straight through.  The part that I’ve bonded in your OP is just not there.  There is nothing about changing DNA.  Except in the title.  Which makes me wonder if this is like newspapers who hire separate headline editors who don’t always read the article.  
 

mRNA carries messages from DNA to the parts of the cells that build things.  The three examples of treatments he talks about are:

1)  Giving instructions to the cells to build replicas of a virus in order to stimulate an immune response.  This is what the COVID vaccines do, although his example was a flu vaccine.  
 

2) Developing a vaccine to stimulate an immune response to cancer cells.  This is where he talks about sequencing the human genome, but it’s not to edit DNA, it’s to locate where an individual’s DNA is damaged to be able to target the immune response to those damaged (cancerous) cells.

3) A rare disease where kids are actually missing a part of a gene.  This one is where I actually poked around more, because it seems like editing the gene would be good here.  But that’s not what mRNA does.  Here is a paper on the mouse study he talks about.  Notice that they’re studying the long-term safety of repeated infusions of mRNA.  That’s because it the treatment doesn’t change the DNA, it just provides the missing information.  And because mRNA doesn’t hang around in the body it needs to be an ongoing treatment.  “Full realization of the potential of systemic mRNA therapy requires the ability to achieve long-term efficacy and safety upon repeated systemic dosing of mRNA, due to the limited duration of mRNA-encoded proteins.”

 

Thanks for taking the time to watch the video and respond. I really appreciate it.

[I talk to the trees]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Excellent, thanks for checking! 

I'm really looking forward to learning my sciences properly. They came easily to me in high school, but I was so preoccupied with math competitions that I didn't bother to learn them well, and I haven't retained them. I really regret it now. 

Shhhhh....don’t tell her, but I have really enjoyed helping dd study for biochemistry and organic chemistry since she has been stuck at home doing classes, and I’m kind of going to miss having someone around to ‘splain sciency things to me when she goes back! 😁

[wathe]

7 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

Yes. mRNA is a "copier" of information on the DNA Strand.

 

My confusion stems from it is like someone saying that a photocopier can change the original document.

 

I like this analogy.  I'll extend it:

Your DNA is like an old-school reference library.  All the information is in the books there (DNA), but no-one can take them out, and they are carefully guarded by stern librarians.  You can make photocopies (mRNA) of the bits of information/instructions you need from the reference books though, and use those photocopies (mRNA) in the field as blueprints to make stuff (proteins).  The photocopies (mRNA) will get tattered and damaged with use and eventually degrade and fall apart - they are meant to be consumable working copies.  The photocopies (mRNA) do not change the content of the original reference books (DNA).

ETA:  The mRNA vaccine is like a photocopy that came from a different library.  You can use it to make stuff in the field, but the information wasn't in your home reference library.  You get by inter-library loan (vaccine).  It won't change your home library's collection.

Edited April 7, 2021 by wathe

[Pen]

7 hours ago, Hyacinth said:

Talk to me, Science Hive.

I've read the mainstream articles on how the current Covid vaccinations do not alter DNA, and I've read the outlier articles that suggest otherwise.

In a 2017 TED talk, Tal Zaks, the (now) former Chief Medical Officer of Moderna, essentially praised the possibilities of mRNA in rewriting DNA code. You can search for the talk, but I'll warn you . . . it's usually attached to anti-vax, conspiracy-friendly commentary. If you can ignore the inflammatory commentary on either side and listen to what he's saying, can you then explain it to me?

Is it possible that mRNA therapies/vaccinations can alter DNA? If so, what are the implications--good and bad--of this possibility?

 

it is possible 
 

it has been known in regard to virology / immunology for a fairly long time that RNA can affect DNA.

For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21433342/

https://www.med.uio.no/imb/english/research/news-and-events/news/2020/Modified-RNA-has-a-direct-effect-on-DNA.html

also of potential relation to this:

gene editing 

epigenetics (even emotional stress can alter DNA) 

 

ETA: also aside from mRNA some chemicals are know to modify DNA — as vaccines are not pure mRNA there are potentially other ways a vaccine could affect DNA. 
 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Pen

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

it is possible 
 

it has been known in regard to virology / immunology for a fairly long time that RNA can affect DNA.

For example: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21433342/

 

In those instances it is an enzyme called reverse transcriptase, produced by the virus, that allows it to do what it does. That is a whole different thing.