Power of attorney

[DawnM]

My dad wants to sign for me to have POA paperwork for medical and financial.   He wants me to find out how to do it.

I have no clue.

Can I just download forms off the internet?   Do I need a notary?   Attorney?

Help me out.

Thanks,

[J-rap]

We hired an attorney friend to do ours.  She used a fairly typical form that gives you the option of both medical and financial.  But, you can probably download something online as well.  HOWEVER, I believe in order for it to be accepted as really legit everywhere, you need to have it notarized.  We had five copies notarized.  Our attorney is keeping one of them, and I'll give another to one of our kids for safe-keeping.

ETA:  I wanted to stress how having several "original" copies is very important.  That is, it will have your actual original signatures on it, with the notary's original seal and signature.  Not just copies of those things.  After seeing my father needing to act as my mother's POA this past year, I've learned how easy it is to either misplace original copies, give out originals and not get them back, etc., until you have none left.  And then you're in trouble.  My father has needed to show an original POA for probably 20 things this past year -- including making changes on his cellphone plan because the account was under my mother's name!  Most critical places really need an original, not a copy.  (Not necessarily to keep it, but to at least see it.)  A couple of places even used a damp cloth to see if the signature smeared in order to evaluate whether it was an original.

Sorry, another ETA:  To play it safe, I'd probably still get a notary to be the witness.  Even if your state would allow anyone as a witness rather than a notary, what if you're dealing with an account that's in another state that does require a notary?  Anyway, just a thought.  

Typically, your bank will provide free notary services.  Also, UPS stores generally have a notary -- although they charge a small fee. 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by J-rap

[klmama]

You may be able to find power of attorney forms on your state's website. What's needed will depend on your state. Some states don't require notary signatures, but some do.  Even without, you'll likely need witnesses.

[Corraleno]

I would use an attorney if you can afford it. If not, and if your situation is pretty simple and straightforward, you could download forms from a site like NOLO; I believe they have specific forms for each state.

I have (and had) POA for multiple elderly relatives, and DS and I also have POAs for each other. In every case I did a Healthcare POA and a separate General POA for financial issues. The Healthcare POA only kicks in if the person is incapacitated, but the General POA is "durable" and can be used for any and all matters that are listed, regardless of whether the person is incapacitated. They also include a clause that the person with POA can't use it in a way that would unduly benefit themselves. So, for example, I have full access to all my MIL's accounts, I can pay bills, move accounts, make investments, buy and sell property, pay taxes, and even make gifts to other people, but I cannot make gifts (or loans) to myself. The reason it's best to use an attorney is that ideally you should spell out each and every scenario in which you might need to use the POA, and an attorney can help you think of things that might not have occurred to you, and also make sure that everything is worded properly and the documents have all the necessary signatures, witnesses, notarizations, etc.

ETA: Agreeing with J-Rap to get multiple originals, not just one original with multiple copies.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Corraleno

[PeterPan]

It's also the time to take care of Living Will documentation. If you're using an attorney, they'll explain everything. Living wills are not fun, but they're necessary.

If you upload your POA documents as pdfs, you'll be able to send them to banks, etc. as needed to make things happen. His banks will require him to be present to sign their own POA forms. Credit card, investment person, same gig. Even with POA these financial places are very slow to talk to you. So he needs to sign paperwork with each of them adding you as a POA for his accounts. That's what we did with my dad. I'm not on his accounts as owner, only as POA. It was a hassle but worth it. With me as POA of his bank account, I can use amazon and buy the things he needs (walker, etc.) and have it bill to his checking/credit card. It has an extra step to do that because for checking you enter your drivers license. The bank took that as part of adding me as POA, so it's very smooth now for me to make things happen for him. 

When we started doing this a few years ago, it didn't seem necessary. Once things change, it suddenly is, sigh.

[Carrie12345]

We have done two without attorneys, but mostly because of time sensitive issues. With enough time, I definitely agree with hiring someone.

Both were notorized. Mine for Dh was printed right off the internet, specific to our state. Both worked in many areas but each ran into one issue. For FIL’s, the funeral home would not accept it for cremation. For Dh’s, the bank required speaking to Dh to confirm permissions for applying for a loan (in addition to a copy of the POA. 
 

Be as specific as humanly possible. Even in my internet print out, there was a space to add more scenarios. Though it did already include banking and real estate, so...

[Pawz4me]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

His banks will require him to be present to sign their own POA forms.

This isn't true, IME. I'm not saying it's not true in any state, but a business can't override state or federal laws, so I certainly suspect it's not. A business can, of course, bluff about it and try to convince you that you have to do it their way. I had no problem at all at various banks and credit unions when I needed to use my mother's POA, which was drawn up by an attorney.

Whether a POA needs to be witnessed, notarized, both, or neither will depend on your state's laws.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Pawz4me

[LinRTX]

 Just a heads up. A POA will not work for social security or anything for the federal government. Both require their own forms. 

[PeterPan]

Ok, here's an article going into the nuances of POA and when the banks will require more paper trail. https://www.agingcare.com/articles/what-to-do-when-bank-rejects-poa-178641.htm  My dad's POA was made by an attorney and durable but he was not incapacitated. We were adding me *before* he was incapacitated so that we could slowly keep tabs and be prepared for a need to do more. That might be sorta the situation op is in, which is why it is just something to sort out. 

Fwiw, we ended up streamlining some things and putting recurrent bills (cell phone, that kind of thing) onto autopay. We didn't want a situation where he'd get sick and miss bills when we were trying to pick things up.

[DawnM]

Thanks.   We are trying to figure out how to handle it all.   He has his main bank, which is in Indiana and a credit union.   Then he opened a bank in South Carolina where he currently rents a room/basement walkout studio.   He is moving in with us this summer in North Carolina and has already said he isn't happy with the SC bank and wants to move his money.    He can get his money to our credit union or to a national bank.   So it is a little complicated right now.   Not sure if we should wait a few months for him to move to NC in with us or go ahead and do the paperwork.   I guess we could just do it for NC and SC for now????   

 

[Farrar]

In terms of the banks, my mother had me go in and become a second account holder on all her bank accounts. This was all to make it easier if something were to happen to her. We didn't do a POA - just a number of other things like this. The POA isn't necessary for her at all at this point, but she is older and widowed so she wanted to make sure I could get to as many assets as easily as possible just in case. I did have to go visit her and go to the bank in person with her.

[LinRTX]

34 minutes ago, Farrar said:

In terms of the banks, my mother had me go in and become a second account holder on all her bank accounts. This was all to make it easier if something were to happen to her.

I was joint on my mother's account. Just before her stroke someone tried to remove all her money from the account. The bank froze the account and I could touch nothing. I had to show them my POA to do anything at that point. It was a crazy storm of problems.

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

In terms of the banks, my mother had me go in and become a second account holder on all her bank accounts. This was all to make it easier if something were to happen to her. We didn't do a POA - just a number of other things like this. The POA isn't necessary for her at all at this point, but she is older and widowed so she wanted to make sure I could get to as many assets as easily as possible just in case. I did have to go visit her and go to the bank in person with her.

It won't be possible with all of  his stuff.   He has one bank in Indiana and I am 100% positive I am not taking him on a trip up there.   And what did you do with the retirement accounts, did she add you on those?

I assume that could be done online?  He hasn't shared all of the accounts with me and I wanted him to go through them with my husband, who is the finance guy.

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, DawnM said:

It won't be possible with all of  his stuff.   He has one bank in Indiana and I am 100% positive I am not taking him on a trip up there.   And what did you do with the retirement accounts, did she add you on those?

I assume that could be done online?  He hasn't shared all of the accounts with me and I wanted him to go through them with my husband, who is the finance guy.

I've been added to most of those accounts. We don't have any specific concerns right now, so it seems like a good interim step. But obviously wouldn't be right for everyone. Most was online, but the bank was not.

[Ottakee]

If possible, have him bank at the same bank/credit union as you guys.  At our credit union I can link accounts which makes things so much easier.

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

Thanks.   We are trying to figure out how to handle it all.   He has his main bank, which is in Indiana and a credit union.   Then he opened a bank in South Carolina where he currently rents a room/basement walkout studio.   He is moving in with us this summer in North Carolina and has already said he isn't happy with the SC bank and wants to move his money.    He can get his money to our credit union or to a national bank.   So it is a little complicated right now.   Not sure if we should wait a few months for him to move to NC in with us or go ahead and do the paperwork.   I guess we could just do it for NC and SC for now????   

 

If he can visit you in NC for a couple of days, I would execute the POA there. And regardless of whether or not NC requires notarization, I would still get it notarized, so you don't have any issues using it in other states where he may have accounts or properties.

And while he is there, I would have him go ahead and move his bank account to your credit union. If he can make the new account a joint account with you, that will make it much easier to pay bills, you can put recurring expenses on autopay, and you will still have access if he passes away and his other accounts are frozen. I've had a joint checking account with everyone I've ever had POA for, it just makes things so much easier.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

It won't be possible with all of  his stuff.   He has one bank in Indiana and I am 100% positive I am not taking him on a trip up there.   And what did you do with the retirement accounts, did she add you on those?

I assume that could be done online?  He hasn't shared all of the accounts with me and I wanted him to go through them with my husband, who is the finance guy.

He should be able to close out his account in Indiana without having to physically go there. Does he have online access to that account? If not, he should set that up. Then once he gets an account in NC, he should be able to transfer the money from Indiana to the new account, and then close out the old account. There may be a $ limit on the amount allowed for online transfers, so he may have to set up a recurring transfer until it's all moved, or contact the bank in writing and ask them to do the transfer. (There is usually a charge for wire transfers, but not for online transfers.) When I closed some accounts in my previous state, I just set up recurring transfers, and then when the accounts were empty, I called them to close the account and followed up with a written letter. 

ETA: There is a verification process before you transfer money to another account. Generally they will make two tiny deposits in the other account (like $0.13 and $0.47), and then ask you to verify the amounts, and then that account will be approved for online transfers. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Corraleno

[DawnM]

27 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

He should be able to close out his account in Indiana without having to physically go there. Does he have online access to that account? If not, he should set that up. Then once he gets an account in NC, he should be able to transfer the money from Indiana to the new account, and then close out the old account. There may be a $ limit on the amount allowed for online transfers, so he may have to set up a recurring transfer until it's all moved, or contact the bank in writing and ask them to do the transfer. (There is usually a charge for wire transfers, but not for online transfers.) When I closed some accounts in my previous state, I just set up recurring transfers, and then when the accounts were empty, I called them to close the account and followed up with a written letter. 

ETA: There is a verification process before you transfer money to another account. Generally they will make two tiny deposits in the other account (like $0.13 and $0.47), and then ask you to verify the amounts, and then that account will be approved for online transfers. 

He doesn't want to transfer his money from the Indiana account.

[DawnM]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

If he can visit you in NC for a couple of days, I would execute the POA there. And regardless of whether or not NC requires notarization, I would still get it notarized, so you don't have any issues using it in other states where he may have accounts or properties.

And while he is there, I would have him go ahead and move his bank account to your credit union. If he can make the new account a joint account with you, that will make it much easier to pay bills, you can put recurring expenses on autopay, and you will still have access if he passes away and his other accounts are frozen. I've had a joint checking account with everyone I've ever had POA for, it just makes things so much easier.

I live on the border.   He is only 10 miles away from me, but I mention the different states because sometimes it does matter.    His bank actually has branches in NC as well, and one is very close to me, so I assume we could go there if we can do it in NC?

Edited March 22, 2021 by DawnM

[Sharpie]

You could call his bank in Indiana and inquire what the procedure is for POA.  In the state my parent lives, they could go in the bank where they do banking with the original POA to have me added to the account as an POA.  The paperwork would be mailed to me to sign and it took a few days once they had the paperwork back and sent to their legal team to make sure it was all legitimate.  The POA was done through a lawyer. 

[Scarlett]

28 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I live on the border.   He is only 10 miles away from me, but I mention the different states because sometimes it does matter.    His bank actually has accounts in NC as well, and one is very close to me, so I assume we could go there if we can do it in NC?

I was just about to say I am sooooo confused because I thought he had moved very near you.  Whew.  I thought I was losing my mind.  So did you guys decide to go ahead with the renovation/remodel for him to move in with you?

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

I was just about to say I am sooooo confused because I thought he had moved very near you.  Whew.  I thought I was losing my mind.  So did you guys decide to go ahead with the renovation/remodel for him to move in with you?

Yes.   We contacted one of the guys who gave us a comprehensive quote and told him we need to modify for practicality reasons and for cost reasons and he is coming out tomorrow to go over changes and work with us.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, DawnM said:

Yes.   We contacted one of the guys who gave us a comprehensive quote and told him we need to modify for practicality reasons and for cost reasons and he is coming out tomorrow to go over changes and work with us.

That is great!  I bet it feels good to have made the decision.  Is he doing the upflush system or traditional?

[matrips]

We went to an elder care lawyer to get it all done.

[DawnM]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

That is great!  I bet it feels good to have made the decision.  Is he doing the upflush system or traditional?

No, the traditional.   Honestly, I think it may come out around the same price......he is charging $3,000 to do the concrete and pipes.   The upflush is around $2,500 or so for the pump and specialty toilet.   It is worth the few hundred dollars extra.