Has anyone successfully set their internal clock so that they can fall asleep earlier?

[Drama Llama]

I know I've posted this before, so I apologize.

DH returns to work at the end of March.  He'll be working nights, leaving the house around 10:30, and my guess is that if I'm not asleep when he walks out the door, I'll still be awake when he comes back.  My anxiety about him working is pretty high.  Given that I need to be at work (virtually) before he's back, and need to be coherent enough to do my job, and homeschool my children, that's an issue.

But despite the fact that I'm clearly carrying a huge sleep debt, and I'm always exhausted, I am having a great deal of trouble falling asleep before about 1 or 2 a.m., even with him home.  I think this is partially because my internal clock is way out of whack from covering the night in shifts when my middle child was with us, and partially because of PTSD related to his death which happened while I was asleep in the middle of the night.

I'm on multiple meds, which help me stay asleep once I fall asleep, and have a good psychiatrist who will keep working on that with me I'm sure.  Right now, i'm trying getting up at 6:30 a.m. to exercise in daylight.  But I'm wondering if people have other ideas. 

I know the gold standard is to push your sleep time forward an hour every day, or something like that, but I have zero leave.  So, that's not an option 

[Alicia64]

Hi Baseball! What is your goal? You'd love to be asleep at what time?

I can barely believe it by I changed my sleep schedule by about 1.5 hours. It took time, but I can tell you what worked for me.

 

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, Alicia64 said:

Hi Baseball! What is your goal? You'd love to be asleep at what time?

I can barely believe it by I changed my sleep schedule by about 1.5 hours. It took time, but I can tell you what worked for me.

 

I'd love to be asleep by 10:00.

[PeterPan]

Do you like dogs?

There are all the other things to talk about (trauma release exercises, blah blah), but it strikes me that a dog that you got paired to could work really well in this situation. I don't sleep very well when my dh is gone, and that's one of the things I do is taking the dog to bed with me. A dog could be good medicine for you on a bunch of levels.

If we were only talking circadian rhythm, you would control the time your house becomes dark, turn down your tech lights, make sure your D is up and that you're taking it early in the morning, etc. But I think that psychological component is a part, not just the chemistry. 

Why is your anxiety about him working high? Is there anything solvable there? 

[Laura Corin]

What worked for me, following a study on insomnia that I can no longer find the reference to:

Night one: go to bed at the latest time that you have ever fallen asleep in previous months (4am in my case).  Get up at regular wake time (5:30 or 6.00 for you if you want to go to sleep at 10:00).

Night two: bed at 3.30, up at 6.00

Night three: bed at 3, up at 6.00, etc.

It was pretty brutal, and I would recommend avoiding driving in the first few days, but it really worked.  No naps allowed.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Drama Llama]

15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Do you like dogs?

There are all the other things to talk about (trauma release exercises, blah blah), but it strikes me that a dog that you got paired to could work really well in this situation. I don't sleep very well when my dh is gone, and that's one of the things I do is taking the dog to bed with me. A dog could be good medicine for you on a bunch of levels.

If we were only talking circadian rhythm, you would control the time your house becomes dark, turn down your tech lights, make sure your D is up and that you're taking it early in the morning, etc. But I think that psychological component is a part, not just the chemistry. 

Why is your anxiety about him working high? Is there anything solvable there? 

We have a dog.  I am not really a dog person.  I like our dog, he's a sweet dog,  but I don't get the magic dog reaction that people get.   My dog sleeps with my kids though. 

My husband works in a high risk profession.  Both covid wise and in other ways.  I think that my anxiety about losing someone I love is higher than normal, for understandable reasons.  

[sbgrace]

We moved my son, who was dx'd with a delayed sleep phase disorder. He was falling asleep around 3 am. Sleep medicine helped us know what to do to help shift him. I'm going to share all we do with our son, even parts sleep medicine didn't recommend. 

He is melatonin sensitive, and that is a big part of how we moved him. There are two ways to use melatonin to adjust sleep--give a small dose of melatonin (.5, 1/2 mg) 5 hours before your hoped sleep time OR give a larger dose (3 mg) 7 hours prior to your hoped sleep time. That dosing is what sleep medicine taught us. I think it really helped a lot. 

My son then takes another (3mg) dose of melatonin 1 hour before sleep, and another 1 mg dose 30 minutes before sleep. Those night doses are just what we did and it evolved over time. Sleep medicine had him taking melatonin (for a while a drug that impacted melatonin somehow) before bed, but we ended up finding that schedule helped most. I imagine that timing really varies by person. But the afternoon evening dosing I mentioned...that comes from studies. I wouldn't tinker with it. The sleep medicine doctor told us not to dose later, even if we missed a dose. He didn't want us varying. 

After taking that final 1 mg night dose, my son does a mindful progressive muscle relaxation. For a long time, he used sleep with me podcasts to keep his mind from spinning while he fell asleep. Now he just does the progressive relaxation until he falls asleep and doesn't often use the sleep with me podcast. I have tried to tell him, because I honestly believe it AND it helps with sleep related anxiety, that that relaxation and deep breathing is restorative to the body even before he falls asleep. He can't clock watch. Anxiety about sleep makes it so much harder. That said, these days he is asleep about 30 minutes after he takes that final dose most nights. If he has a bad night or nights, its ok. The mindful stuff still helps and we know from experience that things will reset. (At some point, it gets a lot easier to fall asleep when you're exhausted AND doing all the right things to set yourself up for sleep). 

As soon as he gets up, he does a light box for 30 minutes. Sleep medicine also recommended that, and I think that's already something you've added. It alone was definitely not enough for my son (we tried it alone at first), but we still do it. 

Sleep medicine recommended he exercise a lot (exhaustion point). My son does much better when he's getting at least an hour of vigorous activity (it would not take that much for me/you I'm sure). That part does seem important. 

My son does mindfulness (that progressive relaxation--it's what he does well with) at some point in the evening too, not connected to bedtime.  

If you have anxiety about falling asleep, there are other ways to deal with that. It's important to handle that if it's part of the picture. The things I'm sharing are about the biochemical or physical aspects.  Anxiety about insomnia was part of my son's picture, and it's hard to make progress when that is happening. Related, have you had any treatments that help or that were recommended for the PTSD? PE or CPT or even EMDR or similar? It's so hard to work around when those underlying things are interfering. My son also has anxiety outside of sleep, and it does interfere (hence all the mindfulness for him...) He also takes anxiety medicine at bedtime. 

-----

I have gathered from some questions you've asked recently that you're also trying to lower blood pressure. I noticed because I am too. 

One thing I wanted to mention, unrelated to sleep, is that there is some research about inspiratory muscle training helping blood pressure. I got an expand a lung to work on that. I do think it helped me (but I'm doing other things at the same time...so hard to say for sure). 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by sbgrace

[Spryte]

This might be kind of out-there, and it was like 15 years ago so the details are fuzzy, but when nothing was working for me, my doc had me do a 24 hour cortisol test.

We started with one of the saliva tests, and she could see that I was having a burst of cortisol at 9:30 pm or so, right when it should be winding down.  And then in the morning - no cortisol at all to wake me up.  Aaack.  I think we did adrenal support at that point.  

Ultimately, when various sleep meds didn’t work, I ended up taking a low dose of trazadone.  Wow. After a few months of that, as needed, my clock was back to normal.

[Drama Llama]

7 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

What worked for me, following a study on insomnia that I can no longer find the reference to:

Night one: go to bed at the latest time that you have ever fallen asleep in previous months (4am in my case).  Get up at regular wake time (5:30 or 6.00 for you if you want to go to sleep at 10:00).

Night two: bed at 3.30, up at 6.00

Night three: bed at 3, up at 6.00, etc.

It was pretty brutal, and I would recommend avoiding driving in the first few days, but it really worked.  No naps allowed.

 

Hmmm interesting. 

I'm not really sure I could do my job during the first few days of that, since I'd be starting at zero sleep.

[sbgrace]

9 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

What worked for me, following a study on insomnia that I can no longer find the reference to:

Night one: go to bed at the latest time that you have ever fallen asleep in previous months (4am in my case).  Get up at regular wake time (5:30 or 6.00 for you if you want to go to sleep at 10:00).

Night two: bed at 3.30, up at 6.00

Night three: bed at 3, up at 6.00, etc.

It was pretty brutal, and I would recommend avoiding driving in the first few days, but it really worked.  No naps allowed.

 

Oh, I forgot! Sleep medicine did try this with my son too. It did not help him--he shifted later! But he had so much anxiety around sleep that I think interfered with its success. This is a known technique to shift. 

[Laura Corin]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Hmmm interesting. 

I'm not really sure I could do my job during the first few days of that, since I'd be starting at zero sleep.

If you have previously gone to bed later than 6:00, I'm assuming that you would need to start with a few hours of sleep, maybe the schedule I gave with a 4am sleep time?  If you have weekends or weekend-equivalents, could you start on Friday night?  That would at least give you a little more sleep by Sunday night.

[mathnerd]

15 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Hmmm interesting. 

I'm not really sure I could do my job during the first few days of that, since I'd be starting at zero sleep.

Try to do this at Spring Break or a long weekend. I had to do a brutal reboot of my sleep schedule when I got used to staying up late in the night for a variety of reasons. I used a break in my work schedule to do this. In my case, I stayed awake all night to reset my sleep clock. I was not successful at first, but managed it eventually. Try to do something entertaining and easy on your brain in order to stay awake (for example, YouTube, Netflix etc) and don’t stress your body by exercising during those few days. Good luck.

[Ali in OR]

26 minutes ago, sbgrace said:

Sleep medicine recommended he exercise a lot (exhaustion point). My son does much better when he's getting at least an hour of vigorous activity (it would not take that much for me/you I'm sure). That part does seem important. 

Thanks for your post--interesting stuff. I'm curious if you learned if timing of exercise matters. Can it happen any time during the day? Is it supposed to be not too close to bedtime?

[Alicia64]

Here's what I did. I went to sleep 1/2 an hour earlier at a time. I did it very slowly.

Plus I got into bed extra early -- with the electric blanket on -- to read a really, really good book. The book had to be so good that I really looked forward to getting back into it. I also had a strict stopping point when I had to stop and turn out the light.

This part is weird, but it's helped me: I sleep with "pajama headphones on" and a really soothing audio book (using my ipod). Listening to a soothing audio book or podcast puts me out like a light. (In the beginning I used the pj headphones, now I just sleep with headphones on. I'm weird.)

At first it took time, this didn't happen over night. Now I hear a certain voice and I'm out in five minutes.

I wanted to go to sleep at 9/9:30. I had been falling asleep at 11 or 11:30 which is really too late for my life.

I feel so much better now when I wake up in the morning.

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, Ali in OR said:

Thanks for your post--interesting stuff. I'm curious if you learned if timing of exercise matters. Can it happen any time during the day? Is it supposed to be not too close to bedtime?

My doctor thinks it does.  I'm basically unavailable for exercise from about 7:30 a.m. to 7 p.m., and he said that after 7 would probably make the problem worse.  Hence the 6:30 a.m. plan.  

[Drama Llama]

41 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Try to do this at Spring Break or a long weekend.

I don't have either of those between now and when he goes back, unfortunately

Quote

I had to do a brutal reboot of my sleep schedule when I got used to staying up late in the night for a variety of reasons. I used a break in my work schedule to do this. In my case, I stayed awake all night to reset my sleep clock. I was not successful at first, but managed it eventually. Try to do something entertaining and easy on your brain in order to stay awake (for example, YouTube, Netflix etc) and don’t stress your body by exercising during those few days. Good luck.

This part is easy.  Falling asleep is work, but I have mad skillz at staying awake.

Edited February 24, 2021 by BaseballandHockey
Edited because I definitely do not have mad skillz at staying asleep, which is what I wrote.

[Drama Llama]

30 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

If you have previously gone to bed later than 6:00, I'm assuming that you would need to start with a few hours of sleep, maybe the schedule I gave with a 4am sleep time?  If you have weekends or weekend-equivalents, could you start on Friday night?  That would at least give you a little more sleep by Sunday night.

I haven't gone to bed later.  I've just had nights where I was in bed, but didn't manage to fall asleep before the alarm went off and I needed to be up for work, or weekend nights where I slept in till like 8:00 a.m..  

Yeah, I could start on Friday night, but I still worry about being classroom ready by Monday morning. 

[KeriJ]

Getting up early and into morning sunshine,  even if it's cold, on a regular basis goes a long way towards a shift.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, KeriJ said:

Getting up early and into morning sunshine,  even if it's cold, on a regular basis goes a long way towards a shift.

At this point, we're trying having me get up at 6:30 a.m., to exercise outside.   I need to be on camera, in a room with a closed door, by about 7;45 a.m.  

We've only tried this a few days, which so far has led to me being too tired to see straight, but hasn't solved the problem.  

[Not_a_Number]

I’ve been getting up at the exact same time every day, including weekends, and that helps me a bunch. So does cutting out any caffeine after 1 pm or so.

[Acadie]

1 hour ago, sbgrace said:

He is melatonin sensitive, and that is a big part of how we moved him. There are two ways to use melatonin to adjust sleep--give a small dose of melatonin (.5, 1/2 mg) 5 hours before your hoped sleep time OR give a larger dose (3 mg) 7 hours prior to your hoped sleep time. That dosing is what sleep medicine taught us. I think it really helped a lot. 

My son then takes another (3mg) dose of melatonin 1 hour before sleep, and another 1 mg dose 30 minutes before sleep. Those night doses are just what we did and it evolved over time. Sleep medicine had him taking melatonin (for a while a drug that impacted melatonin somehow) before bed, but we ended up finding that schedule helped most. I imagine that timing really varies by person. But the afternoon evening dosing I mentioned...that comes from studies. I wouldn't tinker with it. The sleep medicine doctor told us not to dose later, even if we missed a dose. He didn't want us varying. 

Thank you--this level of detail is super helpful! Does your son routinely take the 3 doses of melatonin, or was part of it just during the time you were shifting his sleep cycle?

[Drama Llama]

I really appreciate the level of detail here.  

Some of what people are suggesting, I've tried.  Some, is new to me.  For example, I've tried melatonin, but not that many hours before bedtime, so maybe I should try again.  

I appreciate all the suggestions.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Yes.

I use a light box when I first wake up to send a strong signal to my brain that it is time to be up, and I exercise in the morning. I cut off caffeine by 3. I sleep with complete blackout curtains from amazon.

All of that said....I think you are fighting against your own trauma and your body may not respond as easily. Are you trauma informed at this point? The Body Keeps the Score, polyvagal theory, etc.? You may have better luck doing some body work around bedtime.

[Katy]

If I’m not out by 10:30 I frequently can’t sleep until 1.  It’s not just the awful year you’ve had, there’s some biorhythms you’re fighting. 

Bright light & protein first thing in the morning, even if you’re not a breakfast eater.

Hot bath with lots of epsom salt for at least 20 minutes at least an hour before bed. Possibly with some lavender essential oil or bubble bath. Take a fiction book into the bath with you.

Reading fiction apparently can lower cortisol as much as meditation or prayer, and it’s much easier than the others when you feel stressed and tired.

The magnesium & lavender relax you. Your body cooling off afterwards is a sleep trigger for many people. 

[Drama Llama]

16 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes.

I use a light box when I first wake up to send a strong signal to my brain that it is time to be up, and I exercise in the morning. I cut off caffeine by 3. I sleep with complete blackout curtains from amazon.

All of that said....I think you are fighting against your own trauma and your body may not respond as easily. Are you trauma informed at this point? The Body Keeps the Score, polyvagal theory, etc.? You may have better luck doing some body work around bedtime.

This is true without a doubt.  I am informed, but not as informed as I probably need to be.  If you have specific resources to share, I'd be grateful.  

[Clemsondana]

I don't require as much sleep as the rest of my family, and my family, so I have to do things to make myself able to fall asleep when they do (I usually get up earlier than everybody else).  I try to get in at least a walk - the exercise is good, but outside time seems to help.  I also try to make sure that I'm around bright lights during the daytime hours.  As the house gets darker, I don't turn on bright lights so that my biorhythms are thinking 'evening' instead of 'noon'.  If I really need to get to sleep earlier, I avoid screens (TV seems to be OK, but computer screens usually aren't) after 8 or 9 at the latest.  I avoid caffeine in general but especially after lunchtime.  Melatonin can help - when my allergies flare I can have a lot of sleep issues so I occasionally use melatonin to help reset.  I also have to make sure that I'm well hydrated during the day, since if I get to bedtime and am thirsty I'll keep drinking water and then need to get up to use the bathroom, at which point I realize that I'm thirsty...and the cycle repeats.  Eating too close to bed can cause reflux when you lie down.  Unlike people who sleep better with weight/heavy blankets, I find that they make me feel like I'm suffocating (I've woken up with nightmares)...apparently I was not a swaddled baby.  🙂  I don't know if any of this will help, but maybe when combined with others' suggestions...

[KeriJ]

Also, 250 mg of Magnesium Citrate an hour before bed makes a huge difference for me. 

[sbgrace]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

Thank you--this level of detail is super helpful! Does your son routinely take the 3 doses of melatonin, or was part of it just during the time you were shifting his sleep cycle?

We did it to shift him, then when he was solidly sleeping we would eventually stop the day dosing (we have never stopped night/bedtime melatonin dosing). Mostly we stop because it's kind of hard to remember to do melatonin in the day when things are going well sleep wise. I actually think this is probably the better way to use melatonin biologically. 

My son really does have an underlying sleep phase disorder, so it's really for him to shift back out.

When sleep starts getting  delayed onset again for even a few nights, we start back in with the afternoon or evening melatonin to reset him. He's doing the afternoon/evening dosing it right now, so it's fresh in my mind! 

I put afternoon/evening, because, for example, the 3mg afternoon dose worked best here schedule wise Monday, but yesterday the 1/2 mg evening dose was better--it's really important, I was told, to make sure you're giving the right amounts at the right times, but I personally haven't found that it matters if I do one or the other for him. 

He's sleeping great. (He is doing all the other things--particularly the exercise and mindfulness--too).  I will keep doing the day dosing until we just forget/get out of the habit. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by sbgrace

[sbgrace]

3 hours ago, Ali in OR said:

Thanks for your post--interesting stuff. I'm curious if you learned if timing of exercise matters. Can it happen any time during the day? Is it supposed to be not too close to bedtime?

You know recent studies seem to show that moderate exercise as close to 1.5 hours before bed doesn't harm sleep. I've noticed I can exercise pretty late without issue--just not right before bed. I sleep better when I get good exercise. 

But my son does pretty high intensity stuff, and he's so super sensitive, that I have always enouraged him to do it no later than early evening-before that evening melatonin dose, 5 hours before sleep, would be. He often exercises quite a bit earlier than that. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by sbgrace

[Arctic Bunny]

I really had to learn to mentally give control to my DH and God when he walked out the door. Actually take a deep breath, and close my eyes, and visualize handing it over. There is literally nothing I can do. So I have to believe he is smart enough and well-trained enough, and yes, lucky enough, to get through another shift. Hugs to you.

[Ausmumof3]

I did a day of very solid outdoor physical work this week and I’ve been crashing at 10.30.  I normally can’t sleep till late.  

[Arctic Bunny]

To add on.... and you don’t have to answer.... I know your DH was able to take a lot of time off already... but is there anyway he could transfer to another unit for a bit? Or does he need to get back to his regular position? Mine would absolutely prefer to deal with stress by being focused on frontline, and it would have been asking a lot of him to take a (to him) soul-crushing desk job.

[prairiewindmomma]

I will try to come back for a longer reply, but my schedule is crazy this week and the brain cells are already fried.....but let me give you some things to google. Sorry I don’t have time to do proper links.

The Body Knows the Score

Stephen Porges and polyvagal theory. Deb Dana also writes a lot in this area.

EMDR (which I seriously thought was crackpot science until I kept bumping into people IRL helped by it)

TRE (trauma release exercises)—YouTube has a ton of these

[Laura Corin]

I don't know if it would be helpful, but on evenings when my brain is fizzing,  I  do yoga before bed. Youtube will have special, gentle, sleepy yoga. You just want a little stretching and some relaxation and calm breathing.

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I will try to come back for a longer reply, but my schedule is crazy this week and the brain cells are already fried.....but let me give you some things to google. Sorry I don’t have time to do proper links.

The Body Knows the Score

Stephen Porges and polyvagal theory. Deb Dana also writes a lot in this area.

EMDR (which I seriously thought was crackpot science until I kept bumping into people IRL helped by it)

TRE (trauma release exercises)—YouTube has a ton of these

Thanks, I will look into these.

I think long term, EMDR is what I need.  My preference would be in person, and after we've got some other things established. 

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

he said that after 7 would probably make the problem worse. 

You might try it, just to be sure. I know most people (when I talk with people at the Y) say exercise perks them up and gives them more energy. Me it zonks out, like clockwork. Could be my thyroid, could be anything, but it's pretty dependable. So I exercise at night to wind down, especially anything with weights. I have a whole rack of weights at home now, because I stopped going to the Y for covid.

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

TRE (trauma release exercises)—YouTube has a ton of these

  This is the video I learned to do TRE with.  It's good stuff, yes. Personally I think there are other ways to (ahem) relax and wind down in bed if that's what you want. But TRE is good and sure do it. 

 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I think long term, EMDR is what I need.  My preference would be in person, and after we've got some other things established. 

Have you seen the accelerated trauma therapy that @Mrs Tiggywinkle mentions? It's done in person, but it's kind of interesting. TRE is something you can do at home. Then your in person stuff can clean up what's left. TRE was astonishing for me, and you can do it for free by yourself, always a perk.