Math After AP Calculus (and Where?)

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But it's much easier to have some standardization as opposed to making sure every single school doesn't use grade inflation. 

I mean, I agree with you that this is a ridiculous situation. And I would be horrified if my kid went to such a school. But the solution is NOT "let's get rid of tests." 

Man... I wonder what they were DOING in that calculus class? And it's not like CC calculus classes are super rigorous, either... 

My friends tell me it doesn’t take much to get an A here. You need to show up and basically all work is done in the classroom. So if you sit in your chair and fill out the worksheet they are working on, you will get an A. It’s really an amazing situation. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

My friends tell me it doesn’t take much to get an A here. You need to show up and basically all work is done in the classroom. So if you sit in your chair and fill out the worksheet they are working on, you will get an A. It’s really an amazing situation. 

.... wow. Just wow. Especially since I can guess what the worksheets look like -- low levels of thinking, repeat the same pattern over and over again until your brain melts. 

[SanDiegoMom]

34 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Man... I wonder what they were DOING in that calculus class? And it's not like CC calculus classes are super rigorous, either... 

One of the kids in the family I mentioned went through AP Calc BC.  In college she was up for hours and seeking her mom's help in trying to understand what fractional exponents were.  

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

One of the kids in the family I mentioned went through AP Calc BC.  In college she was up for hours and seeking her mom's help in trying to understand what fractional exponents were.  

Hey, what a coincidence, I was just doing those with DD8 today...

Wow. What a shoddy education. 

[SDMomof3]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

But it's much easier to have some standardization as opposed to making sure every single school doesn't use grade inflation. 

I mean, I agree with you that this is a ridiculous situation. And I would be horrified if my kid went to such a school. But the solution is NOT "let's get rid of tests." 

Man... I wonder what they were DOING in that calculus class? And it's not like CC calculus classes are super rigorous, either... 

They give the kids lots of extra credit opportunities. We had a neighbor boy come by asking for can food donations. He said that if his class wins the can food drive at the school, the AP Calc teacher would give the class 10% extra credit. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

They give the kids lots of extra credit opportunities. We had a neighbor boy come by asking for can food donations. He said that if his class wins the can food drive at the school, the AP Calc teacher would give the class 10% extra credit. 

Ok, ability to collect canned food has nothing to do with calculus proficiency!!

[SeaConquest]

39 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

They give the kids lots of extra credit opportunities. We had a neighbor boy come by asking for can food donations. He said that if his class wins the can food drive at the school, the AP Calc teacher would give the class 10% extra credit. 

It's crazy to me how many Rate My Professor reviews mention extra credit. I don't ever remember extra credit in undergrad. 

[Kassia]

38 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ok, ability to collect canned food has nothing to do with calculus proficiency!!

We found this in ps all the time!  Extra credit for things like:  attending high school sports games/competitions that weren't well attended (most if not all, charged admission), bringing in tennis balls to put under the legs of the chairs so they wouldn't scrape the floor, bringing in cow hearts for science, etc.  It was ridiculous!  

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

And it's not like CC calculus classes are super rigorous, either... 

My kids had excellent CC calculus classes (and different professors).  They learned it really well.  My two kids who attended ps had a terrible AP calc teacher and really struggled later since they weren't taught well (same teacher for both).  

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Kassia said:

My kids had excellent CC calculus classes (and different professors).  They learned it really well.  My two kids who attended ps had a terrible AP calc teacher and really struggled later since they weren't taught well (same teacher for both).  

Oh, I’m sure they are good. I would just guess they aren’t taught like at a STEM university. 

[Kassia]

29 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I’m sure they are good. I would just guess they aren’t taught like at a STEM university. 

I really don't know how they could have been any better.  Ds went on to get an engineering degree and dd is a freshman in the school of engineering, but completed all of her math requirements already.  I think it really depends on the instructor/department.  

[Roadrunner]

35 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I’m sure they are good. I would just guess they aren’t taught like at a STEM university. 

Yes. I think the key is the goal. 
People (at least in CA) are obsessed with credit. Oh, you can be done with so much college in high school... bla bla bla..... it’s almost a race to the paper diploma. Everybody is chasing credits and they all think introductory CC lasses are making their kids college students. 🙄  I never hear anybody talk about academic preparation for serious college work. Those CC calculus classes are a very good way to lay the foundation if you get a good teacher. I know Caltech for example expects every kid to come with with a score of 5 in BC but puts all the freshman through the Apostol calculus volumes anyway. So if you look at some of those CC math as pouring foundation, then they can be great. If you go in with an idea that you are done because credit has been earned, then you might end up with a problem if STEM education is the goal. Now a dancer calling it good is a different story. 

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I really don't know how they could have been any better.  Ds went on to get an engineering degree and dd is a freshman in the school of engineering, but completed all of her math requirements already.  I think it really depends on the instructor/department.  

I am sure they are good classes. To know how rigorous they are, I’d want to know if they do proofs and epsilon and deltas. I’m not even arguing that those are necessary, just that those are included at STEM schools, for better and worse.

[lewelma]

17 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

Absolutely agree. My son took AoPS Calculus in 6th grade and he is retaking it this year at the CC.

I'm not responding to this quote. But I can't get rid of it. LOL.  

Anyway, this kind of shoddy teaching goes way back.  In 1986, I chose not to take Physics in highschool because I knew that they spent ALL of November and December (as in 8 week) writing a physics POEM that was worth 20% of their grade for the year. I kind of wanted to be learning stuff, not rhyming physics terms. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

I'm not responding to this quote. But I can't get rid of it. LOL.  

Anyway, this kind of shoddy teaching goes way back.  In 1986, I chose not to take Physics in highschool because I knew that they spent ALL of November and December (as in 8 week) writing a physics POEM that was worth 20% of their grade for the year. I kind of wanted to be learning stuff, not rhyming physics terms. 

 

A physics POEM??!!?!!!😮

[lewelma]

Also, ds's uni requires a year of university calculus to graduate (it is a tech school). It will take AP credit if you earn a 5, but it won't take any DE or transfer credit because these CC and university courses are too inconsistent.  Students are required to take the final exam for semester 1 and 2 during orientation week in August if they want to place out.  

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

A physics POEM??!!?!!!😮

YUP. For 8 of the 36 weeks of the year. This is why I had never had high school physics when I took engineering physics at Duke.  

[Kassia]

5 minutes ago, lewelma said:

.  

Anyway, this kind of shoddy teaching goes way back.  In 1986, I chose not to take Physics in highschool because I knew that they spent ALL of November and December (as in 8 week) writing a physics POEM that was worth 20% of their grade for the year. I kind of wanted to be learning stuff, not rhyming physics terms. 

 

That's so ridiculous! 

One of my sons took AP English and got a bad grade on an assignment because the teacher didn't like the paper beard he made for acting something out in class.  It was bad enough his grade was affected by the stupid paper beard, but he actually spent a lot of time making it!  

[lewelma]

The American system of grades is just so corrupt.  Here, the only grades that count are the national exams. These are both external exams (like the AP exams but all essay here), but also internal assessments (papers, labs, art portfolios, speaking tests in foreign language, music performances, etc). But these internal assessments are moderated by the national body for both the difficulty of the exam and then the grading.  Each school has to send in example papers for how they give out A, B, C, and F, to make sure that they are not marking too hard or too easy.  And they send in a representative sample of all their internal assessments across all subjects to make sure that they have not made these assessments too easy or too hard. These assessments must align with the national curriculum statements which are very detailed but allow for a variety of content to be used. Your grade for a course is based on the external exams that are all the same and the internal assessments that vary by school but are moderated. No grade inflation here.  

Edited March 12, 2021 by lewelma

[MamaSprout]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

We found this in ps all the time!  Extra credit for things like:  attending high school sports games/competitions that weren't well attended (most if not all, charged admission), bringing in tennis balls to put under the legs of the chairs so they wouldn't scrape the floor, bringing in cow hearts for science, etc.  It was ridiculous!  

I'd give a kid a few points if they brought me a cow heart.

[lewelma]

I do wonder if the purpose of grades is to encourage learning or to rank students. Ranking is a dangerous game for many reasons.

[regentrude]

10 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I do wonder if the purpose of grades is to encourage learning or to rank students. Ranking is a dangerous game for many reasons.

It seems to me that in many US schools, the purpose of grades is to keep the parents satisfied.

[mathnerd]

2 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

They give the kids lots of extra credit opportunities. We had a neighbor boy come by asking for can food donations. He said that if his class wins the can food drive at the school, the AP Calc teacher would give the class 10% extra credit. 

In my area, the PS teacher gives high schooler math students extra credit on exams for answering Quiz Bowl like questions. Here is a real example from my neighbor kid: Which of the Grand Slam Tennis tournaments were canceled because of the pandemic?

[Kassia]

35 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I do wonder if the purpose of grades is to encourage learning or to rank students. Ranking is a dangerous game for many reasons.

I hate ranking!  And three of my four kids were valedictorians.  

 

10 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

In my area, the PS teacher gives high schooler math students extra credit on exams for answering Quiz Bowl like questions. Here is a real example from my neighbor kid: Which of the Grand Slam Tennis tournaments were canceled because of the pandemic?

This reminds me of my sons' chemistry teacher (honors and AP) who would give bonus points for answering the jumble at the end of her exams.  

 

[Roadrunner]

34 minutes ago, regentrude said:

It seems to me that in many US schools, the purpose of grades is to keep the parents satisfied.

It’s a terrible thing too. Parents think their kids are learning. If college admissions wasn’t linked to grades but national exams, then it would be easier to deflate the grading system. My friend’s kid got a 1 on AP calculus exam after getting an A in class. They can’t explain why, so the default explanation is “oh, she just doesn’t test well.” Hmmmmm, really? Because I bet you she just doesn’t understand the material. It’s really heartbreaking. 

[SDMomof3]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I am sure they are good classes. To know how rigorous they are, I’d want to know if they do proofs and epsilon and deltas. I’m not even arguing that those are necessary, just that those are included at STEM schools, for better and worse.

I think how good a class is really depends on who is teaching. I was pleasantly surprise when my son's CC professor taught them epsilon and deltas.

 

12 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

It’s a terrible thing too. Parents think their kids are learning. If college admissions wasn’t linked to grades but national exams, then it would be easier to deflate the grading system. My friend’s kid got a 1 on AP calculus exam after getting an A in class. They can’t explain why, so the default explanation is “oh, she just doesn’t test well.” Hmmmmm, really? Because I bet you she just doesn’t understand the material. It’s really heartbreaking. 

It's even worst when parents know that their kids are not learning and are ok with it. My friend's kid took AP Physic C and she told me that the class was an easy A, because the teacher doesn't teach it with Calculus. But the kids get a GPA boost because it's an AP class.

[Roadrunner]

Just now, SDMomof3 said:

I think how good a class is really depends on who is teaching. I was pleasantly surprise when my son's CC professor taught them epsilon and deltas.

 

It's even worst when parents know that their kids are not learning and are ok with it. My friend's kid took AP Physic C and she told me that the class was an easy A, because the teacher doesn't teach it with Calculus. But the kids get a GPA boost because it's an AP class.

You are in CA. That explains it. UCs only care about grades, so yes, schools will just gift those A’s now. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think how good a class is really depends on who is teaching. I was pleasantly surprise when my son's CC professor taught them epsilon and deltas.

Hah! I stand corrected. Also, surprised 🙂 . 

[daijobu]

I was just chatting with the mother of a Cal math PhD.  She has 2 sections, one at 8am, attended mostly by students from overseas.  Another one at 9:30 for local Cali kids.  She just doesn't have time to remediate the algebra for the local students who were passed through high school.  Fortunately, she isn't under pressure to pass them, and the professors are holding them accountable for knowing the material.  

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think how good a class is really depends on who is teaching. I was pleasantly surprise when my son's CC professor taught them epsilon and deltas.

 

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hah! I stand corrected. Also, surprised 🙂 . 

Our CC professors also covered epsilon and deltas in Calculus.  As well as proofs (Analytic Calculus and Geometry were the course titles I think - they took 1 and 2).

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

It seems to me that in many US schools, the purpose of grades is to keep the parents satisfied.

Yep: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/private-schools-are-indefensible/618078/

[Roadrunner]

46 minutes ago, daijobu said:

I was just chatting with the mother of a Cal math PhD.  She has 2 sections, one at 8am, attended mostly by students from overseas.  Another one at 9:30 for local Cali kids.  She just doesn't have time to remediate the algebra for the local students who were passed through high school.  Fortunately, she isn't under pressure to pass them, and the professors are holding them accountable for knowing the material.  

I am curious if she is teaching for non STEM majors.

One would hope if you got to a UC, you don’t need algebra remediation. 

[Not_a_Number]

41 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Our CC professors also covered epsilon and deltas in Calculus.  As well as proofs (Analytic Calculus and Geometry were the course titles I think - they took 1 and 2).

I'm clearly underestimating CCs here 😄. I stand corrected yet again. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I am curious if she is teaching for non STEM majors.

One would hope if you got to a UC, you don’t need algebra remediation. 

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Source: I've taught at Stanford. 

[8filltheheart]

I am guessing this is why colleges don't even blink an eye when I state that our grades are based on mastery, discussion, and essays and not tests.  I don't really give my kids any grades and it is a system that has worked since they go on to college and tend toward 4.0 GPAs.  THey are surrounded by kids in their classes who have no idea how to learn or study.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I am guessing this is why colleges don't even blink an eye when I state that our grades are based on mastery, discussion, and essays and not tests.  I don't really give my kids any grades and it is a system that has worked since they go on to college and tend toward 4.0 GPAs.  THey are surrounded by kids in their classes who have no idea how to learn or study.

Yeah. Half the kids I've taught at a college level genuinely had no clue how to figure out if they understood the material. They thought that reading someone else's solutions to a math question was enough to do well on a test. 

[Roadrunner]

17 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I am guessing this is why colleges don't even blink an eye when I state that our grades are based on mastery, discussion, and essays and not tests.  I don't really give my kids any grades and it is a system that has worked since they go on to college and tend toward 4.0 GPAs.  THey are surrounded by kids in their classes who have no idea how to learn or study.

But selective schools want to see scores, and I don’t just mean the Stanfords of this world. I mean UCs, Georgia Tech.... UNC.... it’s hard to get into those without showing AP scores and SAT scores. I think once you have that, grades explain themselves. 

[8filltheheart]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

But selective schools want to see scores, and I don’t just mean the Stanfords of this world. I mean UCs, Georgia Tech.... UNC.... it’s hard to get into those without showing AP scores and SAT scores. I think once you have that, grades explain themselves. 

Well, I didn't say they didn't have scores.  I just said our grades aren't based on tests.  

But, you'll see posts on the high school forum asking how to break down percentages for tests, homework, etc.  There is definitely a focus amg homeschoolers to give grades based on tests.  

[Roadrunner]

31 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm clearly underestimating CCs here 😄. I stand corrected yet again. 

Ours used to have a Professor who was a Stanford graduate. Every one of his problems on exams required deep understanding. No plug and chug of any sort. The average in the class was a D. Sadly, he retired. 

[SDMomof3]

46 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm clearly underestimating CCs here 😄. I stand corrected yet again. 

my son's professor is a co-author of the Stewart Calculus Early Transcendentals textbook. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by SDMomof3

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

my son's professor is a co-author of the Stewart Calculus Early Transcendentals textbook. 

Ah, cool.

You probably don't want to get me started on the standard calculus sequence, though 😉 . 

[Roadrunner]

49 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, cool.

You probably don't want to get me started on the standard calculus sequence, though 😉 . 

Am I the only one here who is grabbing popcorn? 

[SoCal_Bear]

@RoadrunnerThe sad trend in urban districts seems to be moving in the direction of removing programs for high achieving students. I am pretty sure that you are going to see gifted programs across the country being eliminated soon. This relates to your comment about Asian students in a lot of ways.

Lowell eliminates merit-based admissions and goes lottery. Lowell is San Francisco's version of NYC's Stuyvesant. 
https://abc7news.com/sfusd-board-of-education-meeting-school-lowell-high-sf/10325219/

NYC is moving in the same direction:
https://gothamist.com/news/why-are-nyc-parents-so-upset-idea-scrapping-gifted-and-talented-programs

Boston is doing it as well:
https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

Edited March 13, 2021 by calbear

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, calbear said:

@RoadrunnerThe sad trend in urban districts seems to be moving in the direction of removing programs for high achieving students. I am pretty sure that you are going to see gifted programs across the country being eliminated soon. This relates to your comment about Asian students in a lot of ways.

Lowell eliminates merit-based admissions and goes lottery. Lowell is San Francisco's version of NYC's Stuyvesant. 
https://abc7news.com/sfusd-board-of-education-meeting-school-lowell-high-sf/10325219/

NYC is moving in the same direction:
https://gothamist.com/news/why-are-nyc-parents-so-upset-idea-scrapping-gifted-and-talented-programs

Boston is doing it as well:
https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

And who does that benefit? 😞 

Instead of strengthening elementary school education, creating mentoring/tutoring programs for economically disadvantaged kids so they can have a chance at admissions to those programs and expanding specialized schools (demand seems to be there), we are taking away opportunities from kids who worked hard in the name of equity? 
Not directed at you. This march toward the mediocrity just kills me. 

[SoCal_Bear]

Within the Asian communities, all I can say is there is a lot of frustration.

[SeaConquest]

28 minutes ago, calbear said:

@RoadrunnerThe sad trend in urban districts seems to be moving in the direction of removing programs for high achieving students. I am pretty sure that you are going to see gifted programs across the country being eliminated soon. This relates to your comment about Asian students in a lot of ways.

Lowell eliminates merit-based admissions and goes lottery. Lowell is San Francisco's version of NYC's Stuyvesant. 
https://abc7news.com/sfusd-board-of-education-meeting-school-lowell-high-sf/10325219/

NYC is moving in the same direction:
https://gothamist.com/news/why-are-nyc-parents-so-upset-idea-scrapping-gifted-and-talented-programs

Boston is doing it as well:
https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/02/26/citing-racial-inequities-boston-public-schools-suspend-advanced-learning-classes

Seattle too: https://reason.com/2020/03/26/seattles-school-system-has-begun-dismantling-its-gifted-programs/

[Not_a_Number]

14 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And who does that benefit? 😞 

Instead of strengthening elementary school education, creating mentoring/tutoring programs for economically disadvantaged kids so they can have a chance at admissions to those programs and expanding specialized schools (demand seems to be there), we are taking away opportunities from kids who worked hard in the name of equity? 
Not directed at you. This march toward the mediocrity just kills me. 

Yeah, we've been watching the dismantling of all this with dismay. They'll almost certainly regret this in a decade or two, but the programs and their excellent teachers will be gone. 

[madteaparty]

15 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And who does that benefit? 😞 

Instead of strengthening elementary school education, creating mentoring/tutoring programs for economically disadvantaged kids so they can have a chance at admissions to those programs and expanding specialized schools (demand seems to be there), we are taking away opportunities from kids who worked hard in the name of equity? 
Not directed at you. This march toward the mediocrity just kills me. 

Apparently they’re doing this in China, as well. It’s led to “unicorn” start-up afterschooling-type companies. 

[Arcadia]

On 3/12/2021 at 8:30 AM, Roadrunner said:

Well, that’s my local high school. Most kids have A’s and most do fairly badly on exams. It’s not a surprising result to get an A in Calculus and a 2 on the exam. Explanation is “some kids don’t test well.” And counselors at school basically are telling kids scores don’t matter for acceptance but only GPA matters. And the GPAs have been increasing steadily while scores have stagnated because it doesn’t take much to get an A - show up, turn in work that they mostly do inside the classroom.  Our school sends a ton of those kids to UCs, including UCLA and UCB. 
... GPA is all that matters. This is also the sentiment now shared  by our university system

Can’t really blame the schools and community colleges. They are just trying to help their students to play the UC/CSU weighted GPA game. After all community colleges also boast about transfer rates.

[Roadrunner]

44 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Can’t really blame the schools and community colleges. They are just trying to help their students to play the UC/CSU weighted GPA game. After all community colleges also boast about transfer rates.

It will lead nowhere good.