Math After AP Calculus (and Where?)

[chiguirre]

22 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm clearly underestimating CCs here 😄. I stand corrected yet again. 

So here's the deal at dd's CC. They have 12,000 students at her campus and 90,000 across their 7 campuses. Dd's campus offers 2 sections each (so max 60 students) of Calc 1, 2 and 3: one in person, one online. 

That's how they can maintain standards strict enough to have their courses transfer to UT Austin and TAMU.

There are only about 100 students in the Honors College. For those students, the CC is an excellent opportunity. They get the best teachers and a rigorous curriculum. They get the opportunity to do field trips, free tickets to local theater and lectures (before Covid) and access to special extra curriculars (dd does Model UN). But that's 100 or so students out of 12,000. 

 

ETA: DD wandered by and I asked about proofs and deltas and epsilons. She rolled her eyes at me and said, "Of course, duh!" They use Stewart's Early Transcendentals.

Edited March 13, 2021 by chiguirre

[Roadrunner]

30 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

So here's the deal at dd's CC. They have 12,000 students at her campus and 90,000 across their 7 campuses. Dd's campus offers 2 sections each (so max 60 students) of Calc 1, 2 and 3: one in person, one online. 

That's how they can maintain standards strict enough to have their courses transfer to UT Austin and TAMU.

There are only about 100 students in the Honors College. For those students, the CC is an excellent opportunity. They get the best teachers and a rigorous curriculum. They get the opportunity to do field trips, free tickets to local theater and lectures (before Covid) and access to special extra curriculars (dd does Model UN). But that's 100 or so students out of 12,000. 

 

ETA: DD wandered by and I asked about proofs and deltas and epsilons. She rolled her eyes at me and said, "Of course, duh!" They use Stewart's Early Transcendentals.

Surprised. Stewart text is very procedural and not proof based as I understand. That’s what is used at our CC. 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Roadrunner]

On 3/12/2021 at 2:15 PM, Not_a_Number said:

Hah! I stand corrected. Also, surprised 🙂 . 

Keep in mind also that most of us haven’t experienced a math course at a STEM university. 😉

From what we have seen on MIT open courseware, even the great teachers at CC don’t come close to MIT depth because the student body at a CC is not nearly as capable as MIT students.  Yet the level is still heads above high school.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Keep in mind also that most of us haven’t experienced a math course at a STEM university. 😉

Right, so I don't know how to compare. I've taught calculus at Stanford, and I have no idea how that compares. I'm sure the hardest version is much harder than a CC class, but I don't know how something like the 19, 20, 21 sequence would compare. 

 

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

From what we have seen on MIT open courseware, even the great teachers at CC don’t come close to MIT depth because the student body at a CC is not nearly as capable as MIT students.  Yet the level is still heads above high school.

I've never taught at MIT, so I wouldn't know about that! What makes the MIT class deeper? 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right, so I don't know how to compare. I've taught calculus at Stanford, and I have no idea how that compares. I'm sure the hardest version is much harder than a CC class, but I don't know how something like the 19, 20, 21 sequence would compare. 

 

I've never taught at MIT, so I wouldn't know about that! What makes the MIT class deeper? 

DS watches MIT lectures at times. He says they are just much more theoretical as opposed to applied. Basically the difference being Stewart text versus what something like Apostol would cover. Now Stewart I think is a good preparation for Apostle for kids who aren’t natural geniuses and need to see material several times.
I mean even teachers at CC who cover proofs do so mostly as illustrations. I have yet to hear a Stewart based course to ask kids to write proofs. So it’s one thing for you to “witness” a proof and quite another for you to write it. And this is just my observational understanding from a completely mathematically clueless parent. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

DS watches MIT lectures at times. He says they are just much more theoretical as opposed to applied. Basically the difference being Stewart text versus what something like Apostol would cover. Now Stewart I think is a good preparation for Apostle for kids who aren’t natural geniuses and need to see material several times.
I mean even teachers at CC who cover proofs do so mostly as illustrations. I have yet to hear a Stewart based course to ask kids to write proofs. So it’s one thing for you to “witness” a proof and quite another for you to write it. And this is just my observational understanding from a completely mathematically clueless parent. 

Oh, goodness. Seeing proofs is practically pointless. I've never ever seen a kid understand what a proof is from listening. Heck, I can barely understand proofs that other people have written myself, except by very careful reading, and the careful reading isn't like normal reading, and is definitely enabled by the fact that I've come up with MANY proofs and know what they are supposed to feel like. 

My DD8 started writing proofs as a natural outgrowth of what we do with her, so it's not like there's a real proof mystique. It's just a way of thinking. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SDMomof3]

26 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Keep in mind also that most of us haven’t experienced a math course at a STEM university. 😉

From what we have seen on MIT open courseware, even the great teachers at CC don’t come close to MIT depth because the student body at a CC is not nearly as capable as MIT students.  Yet the level is still heads above high school.

I don't know about MIT, but for Caltech.

Math 1a (single variable calculus) is pretty heavy on the proofs. They expect you already know calculus, so the point of the class is the proofs. They also expect the incoming freshmen to have taken Modern Algebra.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by SDMomof3

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

I don't know about MIT, but for Caltech.

Math 1a (single variable calculus) is pretty heavy on the proofs. They expect you already know calculus, so the point of the class is the proofs. They also expect the incoming freshmen to take Modern Algebra.

Yeah, I do expect STEM schools to have quite a few proofs in calculus. 

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I don't know about MIT, but for Caltech.

Math 1a (single variable calculus) is pretty heavy on the proofs. They expect you already know calculus, so the point of the class is the proofs. They also expect the incoming freshmen to have taken Modern Algebra.

 

Well that’s exactly my point. If you had an exposure to a CC style calculus course or a good BC course (should be interchangeable), a normal student would be well prepared to tackle more proof based work. I simply don’t see that in Stewart book anywhere. Now for geniuses, they could probably skip the BC work and do straight into Caltech type course. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Well that’s exactly my point. If you had an exposure to a CC style calculus course or a good BC course (should be interchangeable), a normal student would be well prepared to tackle more proof based work. I simply don’t see that in Stewart book anywhere. Now for geniuses, they could probably skip the BC work and do straight into Caltech type course. 

I don't know about geniuses, but you might very well be ready to jump into proofs earlier if you're used to them 🙂 . 

My personal favorite for this kind of thing is not starting with either proof-heavy classes or with Stewart-style calculation-heavy classes, but with classes that build up one's intuition for the concepts. That way, when it's time to write proofs, it all makes sense to you. 

[Roadrunner]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't know about geniuses, but you might very well be ready to jump into proofs earlier if you're used to them 🙂 . 

My personal favorite for this kind of thing is not starting with either proof-heavy classes or with Stewart-style calculation-heavy classes, but with classes that build up one's intuition for the concepts. That way, when it's time to write proofs, it all makes sense to you. 

Most kids don’t have that background though. Even with AoPS background DS feels doing both applied and theoretical is very helpful for him. I do think some kids on this forum are simply made out of the different cloth, and it’s hard for their parents to understand “the normal.” 
Individualization is great, but what is available to those of us who can’t teach this material at home is much more limited. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Most kids don’t have that background though. Even with AoPS background DS feels doing both applied and theoretical is very helpful for him. I do think some kids on this forum are simply made out of the different cloth, and it’s hard for their parents to understand “the normal.” 

Yeah, I know most kids don't have that background, I just wish we taught more kids that way! I have a dream of an intro calculus class that starts with both derivatives and integrals in their most intuitive form from the beginning and works on both intuitively until they meet gloriously towards the end of the class 😉 . 

[SeaConquest]

3 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

I don't know about MIT, but for Caltech.

Math 1a (single variable calculus) is pretty heavy on the proofs. They expect you already know calculus, so the point of the class is the proofs. They also expect the incoming freshmen to have taken Modern Algebra.

 

Gosh, how many public school kids, outside of those in wealthy school districts even know about (yet alone have access to or have the $$$ for) such things? No wonder the disparity between the haves and the have-nots in our country continues to grow. It makes me sad to think of those kids who have the potential, but will never get the opportunity, because they were born in the wrong zip code/country.

I understand that most of this convo has been about the dumbing down of standards, and we know which minority groups are disproportionately affected by that policy decision. But, especially after spending 3 years at AoPS Academy and CTY summer camps, I also can't help thinking about the minority groups that are unlikely to have much chance to take Modern Algebra by the time they graduate from HS.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

But, especially after spending 3 years at AoPS Academy and CTY summer camps, I also can't help thinking about the minority groups who are unlikely to have much chance to take Modern Algebra by the time they graduate from HS.  

And the saddest thing is that all those things they are doing in the name of "equity" won't do a darn thing to fix that. 

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And the saddest thing is that all those things they are doing in the name of "equity" won't do a darn thing to fix that. 

I do like programs like this https://www.smash.org/programs/smash-academy/  and this https://www.hiddengeniusproject.org/ but I am still not sure how that gets you to modern algebra by the end of high school. I am just not seeing much diversity in high-level math and computer science programs, no matter which ones S enrolls in and he has picked up on that over time, forcing us to have some hard discussions about equity in this country. The barriers appear to be multifaceted and difficult to solve.     

Edited March 14, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I do like programs like this https://www.smash.org/programs/smash-academy/  and this https://www.hiddengeniusproject.org/ but I am still not sure how that gets you to modern algebra by the end of high school. I am just not seeing much diversity in high-level math and computer science programs, no matter which ones S enrolls in and he has picked up on that over time, forcing us to have some hard discussions. The barriers appear to be multifaceted and difficult to solve.     

Well, I think the barriers are mostly that students in lots of underrepresented groups go to failing schools. And there are also issues of home culture for some of them, I would guess. Those aren't things you can fix easily. 

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, I think the barriers are mostly that students in lots of underrepresented groups go to failing schools. And there are also issues of home culture for some of them, I would guess. Those aren't things you can fix easily. 

A million dollar question is why those schools are failing. I wish the answer was money. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

A million dollar question is why those schools are failing. I wish the answer was money. 

Well, it's money in the sense that probably those schools need a mixture of way more money than a school that doesn't have the same problems as well as competent management that doesn't just blow the money. 

So, you probably can't solve the problem without money, but you probably can't just throw money at it. It's all a huge pain. 

[SeaConquest]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, I think the barriers are mostly that students in lots of underrepresented groups go to failing schools. And there are also issues of home culture for some of them, I would guess. Those aren't things you can fix easily. 

It's actually one of my areas of interest in nursing called social determinants of health. https://health.gov/healthypeople/objectives-and-data/social-determinants-health I wrote a 40+ page paper on a sub-topic for community health and realized how much I enjoyed the research in this area. Since I am a glutton for punishment, I am thinking about applying to PhD programs in the fall, so that I could do clinical work as an NP in psych, but also do research and potentially teach. My DH just rolls his eyes at me every time I mention more school. 😄    

 

[SoCal_Bear]

I readily admit that coming out of high school that I earned a 5 for AP Calc. However, I chose to take the Math 1 series which was geared for STEM and Econ majors over the 16 series which is a terminal calculus series meant for all other majors including business not continuing on with math. I did fine in 1A but by the end of 1B, I realized that I was not at all prepared to think at this level of math. I earned my A in 1B, but it was enough for me to see the writing on the wall because of who my peers were in those classes.

Proofs were a long ago distant concept from geometry. So that pretty much spelled the end of my math education because I realized I would be playing catch up/struggling for something that would never be required for business majors. This also meant that I would have to opt out of the math intensive economics course sequences either that used calculus quite heavily. The time it would have required didn't seem worth it to me at that time because it wasn't critical to my major. It did show me how weak conceptually my math education was coming out of my high school (not particularly a good school since about 10% of the students went on to 4 year college). We had just that one AP class for my school which was about 2,500 students.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by calbear

[SDMomof3]

36 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I do like programs like this https://www.smash.org/programs/smash-academy/  and this https://www.hiddengeniusproject.org/ but I am still not sure how that gets you to modern algebra by the end of high school. I am just not seeing much diversity in high-level math and computer science programs, no matter which ones S enrolls in and he has picked up on that over time, forcing us to have some hard discussions. The barriers appear to be multifaceted and difficult to solve.     

Caltech does admit kids who have taken up to AP Calc BC. My dd's best friend was one of these kids. He is African American, went to public school, and first generation college student.

If a student is admitted and the don't have the math background, Caltech places them in the "remedial" math program.  These kids are caught up to their peers in regular math by the second semester of their freshman year.

[SoCal_Bear]

I will say that homeschooling my son using AOPS (plus Beast and other math resources from earlier years) taught me a lot about mtah that I never had an opportunity to learn. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by calbear

[SeaConquest]

37 minutes ago, calbear said:

I will say that homeschooling my son using AOPS (plus Beast and other math resources from earlier years) taught me a lot about mtah that I never had an opportunity to learn. 

Me too, but we were privileged enough to be able to stay at home with our kids. From the racial disparity in the death rate especially, the pandemic has underscored that not everyone is that fortunate. 😪 

[SeaConquest]

53 minutes ago, calbear said:

I readily admit that coming out of high school that I earned a 5 for AP Calc. However, I chose to take the Math 1 series which was geared for STEM and Econ majors over the 16 series which is a terminal calculus series meant for all other majors including business not continuing on with math. I did fine in 1A but by the end of 1B, I realized that I was not at all prepared to think at this level of math. I earned my A in 1B, but it was enough for me to see the writing on the wall because of who my peers were in those classes.

Proofs were a long ago distant concept from geometry. So that pretty much spelled the end of my math education because I realized I would be playing catch up/struggling for something that would never be required for business majors. This also meant that I would have to opt out of the math intensive economics course sequences either that used calculus quite heavily. The time it would have required didn't seem worth it to me at that time because it wasn't critical to my major. It did show me how weak conceptually my math education was coming out of my high school (not particularly a good school since about 10% of the students went on to 4 year college). We had just that one AP class for my school which was about 2,500 students.

 

I think you were selling yourself short. Perhaps some imposter syndrome at work? Yes, you didn't have the advantage of going to a $$$ high school and getting fancy math exposure before Cal, but it sounds like you worked very hard and managed to succeed. Brava!

[MamaSprout]

8 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Gosh, how many public school kids, outside of those in wealthy school districts even know about (yet alone have access to or have the $$$ for) such things? No wonder the disparity between the haves and the have-nots in our country continues to grow. It makes me sad to think of those kids who have the potential, but will never get the opportunity, because they were born in the wrong zip code/country.

I understand that most of this convo has been about the dumbing down of standards, and we know which minority groups are disproportionately affected by that policy decision. But, especially after spending 3 years at AoPS Academy and CTY summer camps, I also can't help thinking about the minority groups that are unlikely to have much chance to take Modern Algebra by the time they graduate from HS.  

I think the groups this affects varies by region. We are in the Midwest. When dd shows up for anything high level stem she is the anomaly. In a typical group of 30 kids that show up for something (AMC test or our state ceremony for honors out-of-level tests, etc) she is usually one of a small handful girls and definitely the only Caucasian girl. Very heavily male and both under-and-over represented minorities. At first we thought it was a fluke, but it has been consistent. But, these are the same demographics we would see when dd was younger and we would travel to science museums and such. When I strike up a conversation with other parents, I'm always astonished how far they have travelled for any opportunity that comes around. (And we travel a minimum of an hour for pretty much anything).

Where we are the schools just have a different culture. Even the best TAG/ GATE programs in our state aren't serving the top of the bell curve. (ETA- for example, in the GATE program in our local PS students cannot take PreCalculus before 11th grade).

Families who are a bit more academic and want something different for their kids (and know that these things exist) are usually after schooling.

I'm not sure dumbing down of standards is the problem here, it's more like a general apathy towards academics.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by MamaSprout

[Not_a_Number]

53 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

I'm not sure dumbing down of standards is the problem here, it's more like a general apathy towards academics.  

Yeah, that's a serious issue. I've seen that, too. 

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

I think the groups this affects varies by region. We are in the Midwest. When dd shows up for anything high level stem she is the anomaly. In a typical group of 30 kids that show up for something (AMC test or our state ceremony for honors out-of-level tests, etc) she is usually one of a small handful girls and definitely the only Caucasian girl. Very heavily male and both under-and-over represented minorities. At first we thought it was a fluke, but it has been consistent. But, these are the same demographics we would see when dd was younger and we would travel to science museums and such. When I strike up a conversation with other parents, I'm always astonished how far they have travelled for any opportunity that comes around. (And we travel a minimum of an hour for pretty much anything).

Where we are the schools just have a different culture. Even the best TAG/ GATE programs in our state aren't serving the top of the bell curve. (ETA- for example, in the GATE program in our local PS students cannot take PreCalculus before 11th grade).

Families who are a bit more academic and want something different for their kids (and know that these things exist) are usually after schooling.

I'm not sure dumbing down of standards is the problem here, it's more like a general apathy towards academics.  

In my area, to the extent that there are other Caucasians, we often find out that they are also Jewish, as we are. I have never once seen a LatinX or Africian American kid at any of these classes or camps (in a city/state with an enormous LatinX population). Most of the Caucasian kids seem to be in sports or other non-academic enrichment classes/camps. For example, when Sacha goes to math camp, he is usually the only white kid. But when he goes to lifeguard, sailing, soccer, or tennis camp, suddenly those camps (in the same general area of SD) are all dominated by white kids. There might be a smattering of PoC, but basically they are camps of white kids. The most diverse camp my kids attend *by far* is YMCA camp. What's the difference? Scholarships, to be sure, play a huge part (my kids attend most of these camps on scholarship as well).

So, I think this speaks to both the economics at play, but also the cultural dynamics, as most Jewish families, like most Asian and Indian families, tend to place a very strong emphasis on academics (for a variety of reasons). Parenthetically, I was not raised Jewish; I converted to Judaism, of my own accord, in my 30s. Neither of my parents went to college and have never cared about academics. And, to be honest, the fact that they never cared about my education (or their grandkids' educations) has always been a source of contention in our relationship.

[EKS]

On 3/12/2021 at 6:34 AM, Not_a_Number said:

Ugh. That sucks for them. It’s not fair to basically lie to kids about whether they’ve learned the material 😕 

My son got an A in BC calculus, and got a 2 on the exam (3 AB subscore).  The odd thing was that on the practice test he got a 5.  I know that he was solid on everything with the exception of sequences and series (and that he left one of the free response questions blank because of that).  He was also really nervous as it was the first AP exam he had ever taken.

My point is that just because someone does poorly on an exam doesn't necessarily mean that they haven't learned the material.

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, EKS said:

My son got an A in BC calculus, and got a 2 on the exam (3 AB subscore).  The odd thing was that on the practice test he got a 5.  I know that he was solid on everything with the exception of sequences and series (and that he left one of the free response questions blank because of that).  He was also really nervous as it was the first AP exam he had ever taken.

My point is that just because someone does poorly on an exam doesn't necessarily mean that they haven't learned the material.

 No, clearly not -- people choke. But if there's a pattern like this, there's a problem. 

[Not_a_Number]

53 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

So, I think this speaks to both the economics at play, but also the cultural dynamics, as most Jewish families, like most Asian and Indian families, tend to place a very strong emphasis on academics (for a variety of reasons). Parenthetically, I was not raised Jewish; I converted to Judaism, of my own accord, in my 30s. Neither of my parents went to college and have never cared about academics. And, to be honest, the fact that they never cared about my education (or their grandkids' educations) has always been a source of contention in our relationship.

If you live in an area with Eastern Europeans, you'll also see Eastern European white kids 😉 . Of course, sometimes they are like me, and they are Eastern European and Jewish at the same time, but not always. 

But I agree -- the average American is not doing stuff like that. It's not really part of mainstream culture. It's not even part of typical homeschooling culture, despite homeschooling not being part of the mainstream. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SeaConquest]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 No, clearly not -- people choke. But if there's a pattern like this, there's a problem. 

Yes, but again the problem may not be that they don't know the material.

I remember when Sacha was in 2nd grade, he took the Woodcock Johnson Achievement Tests because I was trying to better understand him. Even though he was clearly gifted, I remember his scores being very confusing to me and the tester telling me that she suspected that he might have ADHD. Later that year, he took the GATE test for SD Unified. I always take homeschooling year by year, so I wasn't sure if he would want to go to regular school if he could finally enroll in GATE (it doesn't start in SD until 3rd grade). He didn't qualify for GATE at all! I was like whaaaaaaat???? In 3rd grade, his AoPS Academy instructor began commenting to me about Sacha's difficulty concentrating in class. We moved him to the front of class, which seemed to help, but we still noticed a huge disparity between his performance on the challenge problems (mostly blue with a few green) and his in-class, timed test performance (almost always red or orange), which began to lead to test anxiety for him. 

The final straw came when fellow boardie Jackie moved to SD. Jackie and I became close friends and we were fortunate that our kiddos bonded as well. Jackie taught a science class at the kids' charter school during the spring of Sacha's 3rd grade year, and had the opportunity to witness Sacha first-hand in a classroom environment. Because Jackie had been through a similar experience with her 2e daughter, she was kind enough to recommend that I consider getting Sacha tested for ADHD (we have a pretty extensive family history as well). I really couldn't deny any longer that he was being impacted by it, so in the fall of his 4th grade year, I fought with the charter to do extensive neuropsych testing. The end result was what we had pretty much suspected -- a gifted kid with ADHD and some fine motor delays. We put him on meds, got him a 504 for accommodations, started him on some OT, and lo and behold, when he took the PSAT 8/9 (after starting on the meds) in the spring of his 4th grade year, he qualified for DYS.

He still struggles with EF issues and test anxiety, and is a scatterbrain, 12 yr old goober approaching puberty, but I have no idea how I didn't see how bad it was before. When his meds wear off in the afternoon, it is literally like Cinderella and the chariot turning back into a pumpkin (Saint Not A Number usually mentors him at night -- G-d bless her!). I love my kid, but the change in his brain is quite dramatic. I am so thankful for Jackie's help and, of course, feel guilty that I ignored the obvious signs for so long. And you can bet when issues arose early on with Ronen (my younger DS) as well, I didn't hesitate this time.

Anyway, you can tell that I'm procrastinating on studying for my critical care final because I am posting more than usual. 🙃  

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Yes, but again the problem may not be that they don't know the material.

No, no, definitely there are other reasons for people to do worse on a test than their knowledge would suggest. I'm just saying that if it's a whole class and not individual kids with specific struggles, there's probably something wrong with the class.

And yes, if a specific individual has this kind of pattern, there might be a deeper reason for that as well! I definitely see that. 

 

4 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Anyway, you can tell that I'm procrastinating on studying for my critical care final because I am posting more than usual. 🙃  

And I'm procrastinating making nonsense words 😛 . I'm so sick of making nonsense words!! 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[MamaSprout]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

In my area, to the extent that there are other Caucasians, we often find out that they are also Jewish, as we are. I have never once seen a LatinX or Africian American kid at any of these classes or camps (in a city/state with an enormous LatinX population). Most of the Caucasian kids seem to be in sports or other non-academic enrichment classes/camps. For example, when Sacha goes to math camp, he is usually the only white kid. But when he goes to lifeguard, sailing, soccer, or tennis camp, suddenly those camps (in the same general area of SD) are all dominated by white kids. There might be a smattering of PoC, but basically they are camps of white kids. The most diverse camp my kids attend *by far* is YMCA camp. What's the difference? Scholarships, to be sure, play a huge part (my kids attend most of these camps on scholarship as well).

So, I think this speaks to both the economics at play, but also the cultural dynamics, as most Jewish families, like most Asian and Indian families, tend to place a very strong emphasis on academics (for a variety of reasons). Parenthetically, I was not raised Jewish; I converted to Judaism, of my own accord, in my 30s. Neither of my parents went to college and have never cared about academics. And, to be honest, the fact that they never cared about my education (or their grandkids' educations) has always been a source of contention in our relationship.

It might be that we are kind of self-selecting here. Those who are in private schools may be entirely served within the context of those schools (although I can probably count on my fingers the "top" privates in our state). Outside of that it is a handful homeschoolers and after schoolers who are relentlessly seeking out opportunities and are willing to travel 3-4 hours for them. 

Homeschooling is largely a religious choice where we are, so while it's largely white, it isn't necessarily academic.  

We find that we tend to "fit in" better with east coast homeschoolers and are on a couple of homeschool email lists that skew that way geographically.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by MamaSprout

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, MamaSprout said:

We find that we tend to "fit in" better with east coast homeschooler and are on a couple of homeschool email lists that skew that way geographically.

I'm an East Coast homeschooler, and most people I know are still not very academic. There are some, but it's not the norm. Is it the norm anywhere else? 

[Roadrunner]

26 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm an East Coast homeschooler, and most people I know are still not very academic. There are some, but it's not the norm. Is it the norm anywhere else? 

I think as homeschooling became mainstream, it more closely reflects the local population. We are rural and the feel here is very free range. We don’t speak of competition in our family not because we aren’t academic,  but because that’s not our vibe. We like to learn deeply, but we don’t like the crowd we have seen in Bay Area (where those competitions are usually held and the feel is very tense and very “fast paced”). So maybe it’s the upbringing, or maybe it’s personalities, but I do think our surroundings have influence.

I also think white parents are more likely to allow children to pursue their interests because the angst to crack into the society that is experienced by many immigrants and minorities just isn’t there (?). They have done somewhat well, so did their parents grandparents... see for them it works. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

I also think white parents are more likely to allow children to pursue their interests because the angst to crack into the society that is experienced by many immigrants and minorities just isn’t there (?). They have done somewhat well, so did their parents grandparents... see for them it works. 

I guess I'm kind of an in-between. I don't have any angst to break into society, but I think learning is important 🙂 . 

[Roadrunner]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I guess I'm kind of an in-between. I don't have any angst to break into society, but I think learning is important 🙂 . 

Yes, so you see kids of academics, or very educated parents.... 

 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Yes, so you see kids of academics, or very educated parents.... 

Yeah. So basically, if you value academics, you're in some way part of a non-mainstream subculture. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Roadrunner]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. So basically, if you value academics, you're in some way part of a non-mainstream subculture. 

Exactly. Just listen to discussions even among the academic homeschoolers. It’s all about credit for this or credit for that. Or get the college done early.... Do you even hear discussions about actual learnings? We constantly go back for more depth in areas of interest. Why? Because we believe in deep foundation, not a shallow one. What I see among even the academic homeschoolers is a ton of CC courses, often the type that are remedial doing they can show off “oh my kid has so many credits,” but nobody stops to ask what is exactly gained through it. What is the quality? What is the goal? It’s just not how people think. 

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Exactly. Just listen to discussions even among the academic homeschoolers. It’s all about credit for this or credit for that. Or get the college done early.... Do you even hear discussions about actual learnings? We constantly go back for more depth in areas of interest. Why? Because we believe in deep foundation, not a shallow one. What I see among even the academic homeschoolers is a ton of CC courses, often the type that are remedial doing they can show off “oh my kid has so many credits,” but nobody stops to ask what is exactly gained through it. What is the quality? What is the goal? It’s just not how people think. 

For me, not coming from an academic family and being married to someone who also struggles with his own academic limitations, I often wonder if I am the best judge of deep learning. Maybe it's a form of imposter syndrome or something, but when 8 talks about having her kids work to mastery without giving tests, just through discussion, I don't even really understand what that means practically. Sure, I could do that when the kids were little and I understood the material, but now that Sacha is older and, gulp, going forward? How could I possibly learn all of those subjects on such a deep level to assess mastery? Maybe after my 8th kid went through physics I could. I don't know. Anyone who has managed to raise 8 kids is already superwoman in my eyes. I do know that I only went through physics once -- in my senior year of high school at the CC -- and dropped it for my only W ever because my trig background was too weak to handle it and I was slammed with applying to 10 colleges at the time. So, I don't feel like I'm an 8 or a Regentrude or a Lewelma with this stuff. I was a lawyer. I can review writing, but I somehow ended up with a STEM kid who passed my depth in math when he was 10 because my own learning was so shallow.  

I know this is heresy to say on a homeschooling board, but when I outsource to a vendor that comes highly recommended from folks here that I trust (or a UC/CC class in a well-regarded district that has good reviews), it feels like it has a certain imprimatur of quality. I can tell you that my primary goals are for the kids to become lifelong learners and to love reading and learning. I'm doing ok on that with Sacha, but Ronen is having a harder time because dyslexia wrecked his confidence in himself. We are working on getting it back. Beyond that, I want to give them a broad, liberal arts education, so that they will be critical thinkers and informed, ethical citizens of the world. In Judaism, we have the obligation to make the world a better place, so I also see their educations as giving them the tools that they will need to help fulfill that responsibility. That's probably not a very specific or highfalutin pedagogy, but there it is.       

Edited March 15, 2021 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I also think white parents are more likely to allow children to pursue their interests because the angst to crack into the society that is experienced by many immigrants and minorities just isn’t there (?). They have done somewhat well, so did their parents grandparents... see for them it works. 

I think you're definitely right about this part, but I think the angst does finally hit the white folks once the kids get to high school. Then the proverbial sh*t hits the fan once they realize the dynamics at play in the college admissions game. The panic sets in and some will do almost anything to hold onto their status in society (See, e.g., the Varsity Blues scandal). They realize that little Timmy isn't going to get a soccer scholarship from being on that travel team after all and then they gripe about the number of spots at selective schools being taken up by the Asian and Indian kids who have been going to afterschool math classes/camps since elementary and are now in Modern Algebra. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Not_a_Number]

24 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Sure, I could do that when the kids were little and I understood the material, but now that Sacha is older and, gulp, going forward? How could I possibly learn all of those subjects on such a deep level to assess mastery?

I think you probably ought to have more confidence 🙂 . You can honestly assess a lot by how a kid is answering questions, even if you don't know the material 😉 . Kids are relatively transparent creatures and their bluffing isn't very good. 

Between that and checking in with people who do have mastery, I do think it's possible to assess how well your child is learning without necessarily learning all of it yourself. 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

I think you're definitely right about this part, but I think the angst does finally hit the white folks once the kids get to high school. Then the proverbial sh*t hits the fan once they realize the dynamics at play in the college admissions game. The panic sets in and some will do almost anything to hold onto their status in society (See, e.g., the Varsity Blues scandal). They realize that little Timmy isn't going to get a soccer scholarship from being on that travel team after all and then they gripe about the number of spots at selective schools being taken up by the Asian and Indian kids who have been going to afterschool math classes/camps since elementary and are now in Modern Algebra. 

It hits some parents. We are rural. Most bright kids here are going for UCs and honestly, I am seeing now who gets in where, and getting into a UC is not all that hard for a kid who did what he was told in school. A ton of kids end up at UCLA and UCB from the local high school and even more in other ones. Others are happily attending CSUs. I mean the level of crazy isn’t here. In fact it’s much more of a relaxed hippie vibe with most people believing CC is the best approach for the first two years. 
There is most certainly a group of parents with kids in top private schools here, super educated people who themselves have gone in to elite institutions and the likes, but overall the angst isn’t here. 
We have a tiny Asian and Indian population and people are horrified by what they are hearing from the Bay Area  (suicide rates, pediatricians talking about depression in the Bay Area). Most parents are very happy we don’t have that here. Nobody wants to replicate Gunn High School. People who live in certain geographic localities or self select within certain groups are truly in a different world. 
 

And I am for advanced academics, but nobody needs modern algebra in high school. I mean we need solid math through calculus. I guess I would focus more on quality of our public schools in terms of teachers and what is being taught than speed. Vast majority of kids won’t (and shouldn’t) be ready for Modern Algebra in high school. I would rather place my efforts on quality math textbooks and math teachers and more solid reading lists (a la WTM). 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Not_a_Number]

28 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

And I am for advanced academics, but nobody needs modern algebra in high school. I mean we need solid math through calculus. I guess I would focus more on quality of our public schools in terms of teachers and what is being taught than speed. Vast majority of kids won’t (and shouldn’t) be ready for Modern Algebra in high school. I would rather place my efforts on quality math textbooks and math teachers and more solid reading lists (a la WTM). 

What's wrong with modern algebra, if a kid is ready? It's fun stuff. It's the kind of thing DD8 would like, I'm sure. 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SeaConquest]

40 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

It hits some parents. We are rural. Most bright kids here are going for UCs and honestly, I am seeing now who gets in where, and getting into a UC is not all that hard for a kid who did what he was told in school. A ton of kids end up at UCLA and UCB from the local high school and even more in other ones. Others are happily attending CSUs. I mean the level of crazy isn’t here. In fact it’s much more of a relaxed hippie vibe with most people believing CC is the best approach for the first two years. 
There is most certainly a group of parents with kids in top private schools here, super educated people who themselves have gone in to elite institutions and the likes, but overall the angst isn’t here. 
We have a tiny Asian and Indian population and people are horrified by what they are hearing from the Bay Area  (suicide rates, pediatricians talking about depression in the Bay Area). Most parents are very happy we don’t have that here. Nobody wants to replicate Gunn High School. People who live in certain geographic localities or self select within certain groups are truly in a different world. 
 

And I am for advanced academics, but nobody needs modern algebra in high school. I mean we need solid math through calculus. 

I'm all for relaxed hippie vibe. I am a I-bank/Biglaw burnout turned [almost] psych nurse, and live on the beach in an RV so my kids can free-range at a campground in a hippie dippy part of SD for a reason. 😊 The rat race almost killed me. Literally. But, I'm still connected to much from my past life, and I see my friends becoming judges and members of Congress and successful authors. And while I am thrilled for them, I'd be lying if I said that I also didn't have to consciously affirm to myself that my mental health and family are more important than my ego. I would never want my kids to live through the Gunns of the world; it's honestly one of my fears about Sacha going to SOHS, even for one class. He is usually such a happy, easy-going kid, enjoying his childhood with his 7 year old brother. I don't want him to get sucked into the world that I lived through (and like Stockholm Syndrome, or more likely PTSD, I still seem to have difficulty leaving behind).   

Edited March 15, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Roadrunner]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What's wrong with modern algebra, if a kid is ready? It's fun stuff. It's the kind of thing DD8 would like, I'm sure. 

Nothing. Most kids (again normal kids) aren’t. I would love to see gifted schools (like the math ones that existed in Russia), but for the normal school, doing math justice through calculus is a better goal. 

[Roadrunner]

7 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I'm all for relaxed hippie vibe. I am a I-bank/Biglaw burnout turned [almost] psych nurse, and live on the beach in an RV so my kids can free-range at a campground in a hippie dippy part of SD for a reason. 😊 The rat race almost killed me. Literally. But, I'm still connected to much from my past life, and I see my friends becoming judges and members of Congress and successful authors. And while I am thrilled for them, I'd be lying if I said that I also didn't have to consciously affirm to myself that my mental health and family are more important than my ego. I would never want my kids to live through the Gunns of the world; it's honestly one of my fears about Sacha going to SOHS, even for one class. He is usually such a happy, easy-going kid, enjoying his childhood with his 7 year old brother. I don't want him to get sucked into the world that I lived through (and like Stockholm Syndrome, or more likely PTSD, I still seem to have difficulty leaving behind).   

I am just commenting of what I see around here not passing judgement on either situation. I think there is a big divide between certain urban area parents and what is happening in more rural areas, so this is why I think most aren’t as academically oriented as big cities would make us believe. 
 

Just to add, I would have had no problem putting mine through SOH 😉

Edited March 15, 2021 by Roadrunner

[SeaConquest]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

Nothing. Most kids (again normal kids) aren’t. I would love to see gifted schools (like the math ones that existed in Russia), but for the normal school, doing math justice through calculus is a better goal. 

Speaking of which, what ever happened to Proof School? I never hear about people's kids going there. That seems like the type of thing you're talking about, right? Do you ladies ever hear any news about it?

https://www.proofschool.org/

Just checked Wiki and apparently only 119 students, so I guess that's why I haven't heard people talking much about it. 

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

Speaking of which, what ever happened to Proof School? I never hear about people's kids going there. That seems like the type of thing you're talking about, right? Do you ladies ever hear any news about it?

https://www.proofschool.org/

Just checked Wiki and apparently only 119 students, so I guess that's why I haven't heard people talking much about it. 

 I don’t know a single person who attends either. It’s expensive.

 

Well Russia had specialized schools for gifted kids in math/physics, music, and ballet (free of course). You had to pass an exam or an audition to get in. I attended the music one. 
It just made sense to provide specialized education for those who were ready for it and needed it. 

[SeaConquest]

15 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 I don’t know a single person who attends either. It’s expensive.

 

Well Russia had specialized schools for gifted kids in math/physics, music, and ballet (free of course). You had to pass an exam or an audition to get in. I attended the music one. 
It just made sense to provide specialized education for those who were ready for it and needed it. 

Ты русский! Я знaлa, что ты мне нравишься.