Attitude issues in DD8

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 23, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Tiberia]

Sorry this is stressful for you. It sounds like academically your dd is advanced. But keep in mind that maturity in academics does not translate to maturity in life. If she's doing 8th grade math, she's still not at the maturity level of and 8th grader, and so on. Most 8 year olds struggle with the same behaviors. Most 8 year olds are not all that independent. You may need to sit with her more to get things done, as you would if she needed academic help. Hope that helps. I'm sure others will chime in. Take care, Joann

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 23, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Tiberia]

Ok, sorry. You sound like a really creative and wonderful teacher. 

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 23, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[The Governess]

https://www.amazon.com/Setting-Limits-Your-Strong-Willed-Child/dp/0761521364

 

This is my favorite parenting book. It sounds to me like what you are dealing with is in essence a power struggle, with your dd wanting to exert more personal power but not really knowing how to do that appropriately.  This book is super matter of fact and gave me a non-emotional perspective to see my parent-child relationship through. 

[EmilyGF]

I want to agree with Tiberia about independence. I see this a lot with oldest kids and parents - we just think of our oldest kid as older than they are and more capable/mature than they are. And I am pointing four fingers at myself. I believe you that your daughter is incredibly independent; my oldest is, too. But I think that makes it even more temping to overestimate their maturity. 

When DS8 doesn't cooperate with level of work I expect, I tell him he needs to stay in bed (we do school in his bedroom) until he is ready to do work that meets my expectations. At the beginning of the day, he gets my undivided attention until he stops cooperating. Once he loses it, I do other things until it is convenient to work with him. He isn't "free" to do whatever he wants until I have OK'ed his work for the day.

The positive about this approach is that I just leave the room (and don't explode) if he has decided he doesn't want to do work to my expectation level. It has actually only happened once.

An aside: once, when ds15 was about 8, he was being really frustrating and I said something like, "Why are you acting like a kid?" to which he replied, "I am a kid!" It was a good reminder for me! He's still about a decade older in some ways than his age, which makes it even more frustrating when he does act 15, LOL.

ETA: DS8 is my explosive/strong-willed child who is gifted (but not to the level of your daughter) academically but even more so physically (every sport is easy to him; he biked at 2) and socially (when he went to school in K, every kid in the school knew him, even the 8th graders). He really is harder than my other four kids together.

Edited October 22, 2020 by EmilyGF

[Little Green Leaves]

I totally empathize, and I bet everyone who's ever had an 8 year old (or a 7 year old, or a 9 year old) will empathize too : )  It's weird and confusing when a bright, capable kid just wants to dig in their heels and resist. Both my kids can be like this in different ways.

I've dealt with it by making school pretty structured and not worrying too, too much about whether it's fun or not. I mean, hopefully we also have fun; I plan things that we'll all enjoy, I listen to them when they express interests, and above all,  I make sure the kids also have lots of free time. But I try to make it very very clear what they have to do, and what my expectations for their work are. Then I try to stay really unemotional about their responses to things.

When they complain, I either tease them, ignore them, or (if I'm cranky that day) I warn them that I'm going to lose my patience pretty soon. They are also old enough to understand things like "if you make my life miserable this morning, I can't do [x fun thing together]  later on because I'll be busy recovering."

Editing to add that obviously, from every one of your posts, you are obviously a great teacher and parent : ) I think this is all just a very normal part of life which, yes, can feel awful.

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Little Green Leaves

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[prairiewindmomma]

Her “not taking responsibility in a way that she ought to” sounds like the normal immaturity to be expected of an 8 year old. 
 

It sounds like you want her to be immediately and cheerfully compliant with your wishes all of the time...and nobody works that way. One of the odd bits of homeschooling is that you need compliance not only for the life bits (picking up after oneself, basic hygiene, basic civility) but also for all of the schooling tasks. It sounds like you’re in a bit of a power struggle. 
 

I have had 3/5 of my children have very strong wills. I have had to handle it all differently for each of them...but TBH, a good deal of the work had to be done in me. I came into parenting as a gifted, high achieving professional used to having a support staff at my command. I knocked out a ton of work and was respected for that. Kids aren’t so appreciative! 😂

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

So... what's a reasonable level of responsibility for an 8 year old? Is it reasonable to, say, expect her to brush her own hair? She doesn't have executive functioning issues.

[Little Green Leaves]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's the part I really, truly SUCK at. When I spend a lot of effort designing fun stuff, and a kid can't figure out that a word means "jam" when I point inside a jam jar, I get frustrated. 

I am pretty haphazard about teaching my kids French, so obviously a different situation from you guys with Russian. But the other day, we were taking a walk and I was speaking to them in French and they were both being SO GRUMPY about it. It suddenly occurred to me that they must feel insecure about the language. I translated a few things into English, praised them for the things they still remembered and all of a sudden they were MUCH happier and we all started having fun with it.

[Not_a_Number]

Deleted for privacy reasons. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[catz]

Both my kids pushed back from face to face homeschooling from me relatively early too.  We moved to a printed check list at some point where they would get small windows with me 2-3 times a day for 15-20 minutes but other stuff they could do on their own.  And maybe a check in to show their work/progress/discuss at the end of the day.   And I had one kid where I put things on the check list like brushing teeth and hair and the day didn't go on until those items were checked off.  Putting it down in a list made it so it wasn't an argument.  It was just the next thing to do.  It removes the emotion for you as a parent too.  

I know for my kids input levels didn't always equals output levels.  We danced around in math.  My oldest especially  was this very intuitive math kid and hit algebra level in elementary school.  But logically showing his work in clear steps for complex multi-step problems that a teacher could decipher came later.  We danced around a bit, focused on logic, problem solving, did a short bit of speed/memory work every day, etc to chip away.  So if you are getting push back in some areas, it may just feel overwhelming and too much.  I do think learning to chip away at something is good.  But it shouldn't result in push back day after day.  I do think for some of these kids it's very frustrating when they understand but maybe struggle to put it out.  I know even as kind of a nerdy intense adult, my brain forms thoughts and words faster than I can express them and that can be frustrating.  

I think this becomes a dance of sorts.  I think as a parent you can decide some things are "good enough" for now.  This is a hard season for outsourcing, but being accountable to someone else for a subject or 2 isn't the worst thing in the world either even if the content isn't ideal.  Not everything needs to be super intense or high level to keep moving forward during these more emotional seasons.  I think it can be an especially hard transition if you had a previously compliant kid butting heads with you now and pushing back.  But that is very  much the tween into teen years.  It really isn't all about you.  And I think when you have a bright kid when they closer to their act their age, it can be jarring.  She is only 8.  It's not personal, it's just part of growing up. 

I agree with plenty of movement, exercise, snacks and working on keeping your own attitude upbeat.

Edited October 22, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[EKS]

This, frankly, is one of the problems with homeschooling.  In fact I found that managing the emotional piece was probably the most exhausting aspect of homeschooling long term.

My younger son used to have spectacular meltdowns every day during our school time when he was maybe 6 or 7.  It was exhausting, and I yelled.  It would be over the most trivial things, though it was usually something to do with math.  I tried everything I could think of to make things better--curriculum changes, how I asked for things, the order of things, backing off on difficulty, making things more challenging, me doing all the writing, on and on.

Anyway, I finally decided that he was the one with the problem and that what I was asking of him was perfectly reasonable.  I informed him that the next time he had a fit during school, he would lose screens for a month--and the month would start over if he had another fit.  Within a few minutes he had a fit--of course--and the screens were gone.  Which, of course, resulted in a bigger fit.  Anyway, I don't remember how things resolved that day, but I do remember that the next day he had another fit, and the next day another, but after that no more meltdowns.  None.  And it stayed that way for a good long time after the month was up.  Like yea

[The Governess]

My kids are older now, but here is an example for you. 

Each of my kids has a currency: something they care about a lot and that can help motivate them to do tasks they don’t enjoy - or simply to cooperate when they would rather be contrary/stubborn. For my oldest, who is my stubborn one, that is her smartphone (has been for a while). So I use that to my advantage. 

Each week, on Sunday, she fills out her planner with a schedule for the week based on what assignments are due. I check it and approve it. Our rule is that she sticks to that schedule, and if she hasn’t finished a day’s work, she has to give me her phone that night and doesn’t get it back until she is on track again. I can’t tell you how much grief this has saved us. She knows the consequence well in advance, and it’s her own choice whether she stays on schedule or let’s other things distract her and loses her phone. I don’t nag her, or lecture her on her work ethic, or argue with her. I just follow through with the consequence. And because having her phone matters to her, she will usually catch things up very quickly so she can get it back. 

Parenting like this has saved our relationship and my sanity. We were having daily power struggles before...

[EKS]

One other thing--I know that my own state of mind contributed quite a bit to my sense that my kids were misbehaving or being annoying or whatever.

For example, when I felt pressed for time, the interaction would go downhill quickly.

Another thing I noticed--and this was after several years of being completely oblivious to it--was that the poor behavior of my children exactly tracked my menstrual cycle.  My perception was that they were behaving completely differently, but I suspect it was really my response to their normal behavior that was different.

[Ailaena]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

She really NEEDS to take ownership of things,

Yeah, so does most of the rest of humanity most of the time - I’m looking at you, politicians... 

If this is what you want, model things for her.  Ds once wrote a 3 backwards so I pointed it out and it was meltdown city.  Screaming about how I hurt his feelings and I, of course, was equally pissed.   And I’m just too old for that kind of stress.  So during these times when he’s mad about being wrong, I started saying things like, “Just say ‘Oops, let me fix that real quick.’”  Or “Tell me ‘oh no, I spilled, let me clean it up,’” “This is confusing, I need a minute to think about it,” etc, etc.   And I cannot believe it’s working, but it is.

Also, I agree with everybody about expectations.   But don’t make it too stressful for yourself.  You can’t keep everybody in line.  Make a grooming list with things in order for her to remember, make other lists to help executive functioning things.   Edit things with her for a while when she’s not doing it up to standards and then hand her the reins again.   And if she screws up sometimes, acknowledge it an let it go.

look, I don’t know anything more than anybody else and every kid and family is different, but you have to remember that kids cycle.  Like, one week they’re brilliant, the next week, they forget how to spell their own name.  And It’s enough to make you stress yourself to death sometimes 🙄

[katilac]

I think it's very typical for kids this age to ask a zillion questions and to need reminding a zillion times - including kids who used to work more independently or not need constant reminding. If it helps, you are not alone. 

I agree with Tiberia that maturity in academics does not equal maturity in life, but I would also add that academic ability does not equal developmental readiness. A child may be academically capable of certain things, yet not have the developmental readiness for the sustained effort required, or to engage positively with the work. 

This is also an extremely stressful time for everyone. Don't for one second think your dd is not picking up on that. She may be telling you, in classic kidspeak, that she needs a change or a break. Take a break from new learning for a week - no new Russian vocabulary, no new math concepts, take a step back in difficulty. Consider giving her completely free choice for a week - let her choose from a list of worthy pursuits, to borrow a Montessori phrase. So she can choose a math or Russian lesson, or not. Maybe that week, she entirely chooses things like free writing, art, puzzles, Lego. It's a week, she'll be fine! Those are the things I would try first, because I'd work on the assumption that the kid is hella stressed just like the rest of us, and/or that their readiness needs to catch up to their maturity.

The next week, return to lessons, but again with no or less new material, and a step back in difficulty. She may need that mental break. Her brain may be busy doing other things, like gaining in emotional maturity or dealing with stress. Keep adjusting forwards and backwards as needed. Observe and notice how she reacts - when are her eyes shining with engagement? It might usually be with 'easier' work for a period in time. That's fine; she is ahead and her brain may be synthesizing various things she has learned already. 

No matter what, don't be surprised if this phase lasts a good long time, or if it returns. My kids went through a period of complaining about everything that almost made me lose my mind. There's a reason we typically have 18 years to raise a kid, lol. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[caedmyn]

It works reasonably well here to set up a this-before-that structure, and they don't get the "that" (which is something they want) until the "this" is done.  For example, my kids need to get their daily chores done before breakfast.  About 10-15 minutes before breakfast is ready, I remind them that it's chore time, and that they don't get breakfast til their chores are done.  And sometimes we sit down to eat without someone who was messing around and didn't finish their chores.  Usually this only happens once in a while now that they know they won't get breakfast til their chores are done.  In your case, I'd set up "brush hair" as something that needs to be done before breakfast.  If she argues, write it on a list on the fridge and just remind her that the list needs to be completed before breakfast (it's a lot harder to argue with a list than with mom).

You can do the same thing for schoolwork.  Set it up so once her schoolwork is done properly, she gets to do something she wants to do that you can control whether she does it or not (we use game time here). 

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[EKS]

1 minute ago, lovelearnandlive said:

Each of my kids has a currency

This is critical. 

For us these things have been screens and, later on, the car.  I know people who severely restrict things that their kids find pleasurable--like screens--or they impose a ton of prerequisites on getting a driver's license (like getting all As in school), and then they are at a loss when they need an external motivator.  

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, katilac said:

This is also an extremely stressful time for everyone. Don't for one second think your dd is not picking up on that. She may be telling you, in classic kidspeak, that she needs a change or a break. Take a break from new learning for a week - no new Russian vocabulary, no new math concepts, take a step back in difficulty. Consider giving her completely free choice for a week - let her choose from a list of worthy pursuits, to borrow a Montessori phrase. So she can choose a math or Russian lesson, or not. Maybe that week, she entirely chooses things like free writing, art, puzzles, Lego. It's a week, she'll be fine! Those are the things I would try first, because I'd work on the assumption that the kid is hella stressed just like the rest of us, and/or that their readiness needs to catch up to their maturity.

It's possible, but we've had this issue since before the pandemic! And I've structured our life to be relatively congenial to her, I think. She loves having more time with her dad (since he works from home) and more playtime with her sister (who used to be in preschool.) So I'm not sure she IS more stressed out. She isn't showing it in any other way, and this is definitely a pattern from before. 

She had a vacation in the summer when we were at our in-laws' house. And it's hard for her to pick activities, since our most beneficial activities really do need to happen when her sister isn't around. I think she DOES actually want to learn... I was thinking about just cutting lessons short for the day if she can't work and having that be the consequence, because that would keep me from being frustrated, and frankly I think she'll be disappointed -- she WANTS to learn all this stuff. But I'm a bit worried that'll backfire 😉 . 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

My DD is almost 11 and I'm always on her case about brushing her hair. If she doesn't brush it enough it will get tangled and she would cry when I had to brush out the tangles. There were times I threatened her with getting it cut if she couldn't keep up with long hair. 

Yes, that's actually a discussion we keep having. DD8 has THICK hair, so if we don't brush it every day, it's ridiculous. And she's also a pain in the rear when I brush it. 

Is it reasonable to ask her to take care of her own hair or else cut it? Because that's kind of what we're coming to, but I don't know if that's expecting too much of her. But it's really hard to stay on top of her for stuff she doesn't want to do!! 

[Danae]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So... what's a reasonable level of responsibility for an 8 year old? Is it reasonable to, say, expect her to brush her own hair? She doesn't have executive functioning issues.

My long-haired boys still needed help at that age. They could mostly do it, but if I didn’t do a snarl check at least every couple of days they’d end up with a giant rat’s nest at the back of their necks.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, EKS said:

This is critical. 

For us these things have been screens and, later on, the car.  I know people who severely restrict things that their kids find pleasurable--like screens--or they impose a ton of prerequisites on getting a driver's license (like getting all As in school), and then they are at a loss when they need an external motivator.  

We don't do screens except for Russian cartoons, but perhaps that could be it. 

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited April 18, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited April 18, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[katilac]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So... what's a reasonable level of responsibility for an 8 year old? Is it reasonable to, say, expect her to brush her own hair? She doesn't have executive functioning issues.

Most kids simply don't care about brushing their hair. Some will easily build it into their routines anyway, others (gives dd1 the side eye) will let it snarl for days on end if left to their own devices. 

It would certainly be reasonable to have a checklist for this and other routine self-care items. 

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But I never expect a kid not to guess jam, or not to try doing division with integers for something like 8.8 divided by 4.4, even when we've drilled division with decimal via integer division for a MONTH. ("I want to do it with fractions!" "But try to do it the way we did it before." "I don't know HOW!" "OK, do it with fraction, but remind yourself how it works with integers." "I have no idea!!" "Try it, see if you can remind yourself." "I can only do it with fractions!")  

Mama said there'd be days like this, there'll be days like this, Mama said . . . 

Welcome to homeschooling! Wait until she forgets what a fraction is 😄

Your teaching style sounds great, I wouldn't change it overall. Just be aware that there's gonna be days like this, and the kid will not say that the word is 'jam' for love or money, and they will not try your math suggestion because the way that they are doing it, which is making them cry, is clearly better. 

Take a break and see what happens when you resume normal scheduled activities. If days like this come along every now and again, ignore them. Tell her the word is jam and move on with life. If they come along all the time, even with breaks and backtracking, then have a discussion with dd, NOT during school time. This is what needs to happen, how can we get there? What do you suggest? You may need to discuss methods and "what do we do when this happens" to get her buy-in, and not just ask her what she wants to learn. You might be very surprised at what she comes up with. Sometimes it's as simple as "we used to do Russian in the kitchen and now we do it on the sofa and it makes me mad!" As a grownup, you're like, wth, kid, why didn't you say so? But it's very typical of a kid to resist or cry or complain instead of addressing the issue head on. Sometimes they don't even realize what was bothering them until they burst out with it when you talk. 

[bookbard]

I've got a very challenging 9 yr old, also gifted. Hair is now cut off very short in a style she chose, because she just would not cope with it being brushed (very sensitive scalp - matching her emotional state lol). From 7 onwards she has turned into a tween and has needed to take total control of everything. At nearly 10 she seems like a young woman in some ways! It's been very important to allow her a lot of time on her own interests. It's very important equally to know when it's me moving forward. 'I know you don't want to do this, but I'm requiring X.' Less talk, less emotion. Plan in advance what you're going to say. 

Write down the behaviours you're struggling with, divide them into 'simply annoying but that's kids' and 'behaviours to stop'. Ignore the former, choose one of the latter to begin working on. 

I'll repeat - my daughter has been challenging behaviourally since babyhood, but gosh she's amazing. It's a crazy thing, watching them grow up, but it's wonderful.

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited April 18, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

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Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[catz]

I don't think it's unreasonable to say hair needs to be brushed daily by one of you or time for a haircut to make it easier.   Not as a threat or emotionally  but just as either or choice. I did get my daughter's hair bobbed a couple times due to just hygiene with it and it was cute that way too.  Now that she's a teen she much prefers it about shoulder length.  Still long enough for a pony tail, but easy to take care of and get a brush through  too.  If she does have long thick hair, it may be too much for her alone still.  I just have no patience for a rat's nest all the time, I know some people's mileage may vary with this.  

As an aside, we got a lot of mileage with some youtube girls hair channels and it really increased my daughter's tolerance to let me deal with her hair.   

The kid currency thing was important here.  We had school checklist stuff, free explore/outside time, and no recreational technology, etc until a certain time of the day (usually that was about 2:30 here - around when neighborhood kids might be milling about).  But everything on the checklist needed to be done (and yes, there were hygiene/chore items in the checklist).  We were up at 7 am in elementary, so I think overall it had a leisurely feel.  And I feel like a lot of my kid's best learning was in that free explore time when they were building stuff, watching chosen documentaries, plotting together, etc.  

Edited October 22, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Not_a_Number]

Deleted for privacy reasons. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Ausmumof3]

38 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So... what's a reasonable level of responsibility for an 8 year old? Is it reasonable to, say, expect her to brush her own hair? She doesn't have executive functioning issues.

I’m still brushing and braiding my 11 year olds if that helps.  It depends on the hair length and complexity.  At that age my dd had a bob because it was a struggle to even have her let me brush it.  She does have some undiagnosed sensory stuff though.  
 

thinking about my friends I reckon 9-10 was a more typical age for transitioning toward kids doing their own hair and even then they needed prodding.

[Terabith]

We bribed my youngest to get her hair cut short.  It was super easily tangled, and she both hated brushing it and having me brush it.  She really didn't want to cut it, but it was a constant source of stress.  

I think this is pretty normal, but also super exasperating.  I have no advice; I sent both my kids to school at 9 for this exact reason, and our solution was simply for me to stop making demands.  This was great relationally, but probably not educationally.  

[Ausmumof3]

From my experience my kids are usually compliant and enthusiastic learners through ti about grade 1 (6-7) then I start getting a little bit of push back from grade three which peaks in grade four to five then they start taking responsibility.  My oldest was like this at one point and now he stays up to finish stuff at night because he doesn’t want to fall behind.  I’m in the third kid in grade three now and seeing a similar pattern.  One thing that makes it much easier is when you have more than one doing school because it dilutes the dynamic a bit. 
 

we do have state guidelines and a person who comes to do a home visit and I had no problem telling my kids that I had a legal responsibility to educate them so if they wouldn’t do it for me they had to go to school.  Of course the pandemic kind of complicated that.

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

She has waist-length hair right now, and she really doesn't want it cut. But she also isn't easy about brushing hair. It DOES go better if she brushes it herself, but I can't constantly nag her about it... 

for me that’s an either or thing.  I won’t force short hair but you either get it brushed without a fight or get it cut.  Also no idea what you do but a nice tight plait or braid can reduce the need for brushing some.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[katilac]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's possible, but we've had this issue since before the pandemic! And I've structured our life to be relatively congenial to her, I think. She loves having more time with her dad (since he works from home) and more playtime with her sister (who used to be in preschool.) So I'm not sure she IS more stressed out. She isn't showing it in any other way, and this is definitely a pattern from before. 

She had a vacation in the summer when we were at our in-laws' house. And it's hard for her to pick activities, since our most beneficial activities really do need to happen when her sister isn't around. I think she DOES actually want to learn... I was thinking about just cutting lessons short for the day if she can't work and having that be the consequence, because that would keep me from being frustrated, and frankly I think she'll be disappointed -- she WANTS to learn all this stuff. But I'm a bit worried that'll backfire 😉 . 

I was thinking that you guys weren't homeschooling pre-pandemic, but now I remember something about a homeschool center? Sorry about that!

If the quarters worked so well for dishes, you might try something similar for schoolwork. I think lots of kids need something very 'in the moment.' When we had our complaining problem umpteen years ago, this board gave me the idea of using tickets or jewels. They got so many in the morning, and lost one each time they complained (needlessly, like complaining about doing math when they know they have to do math). Tickets could be exchanged for stuff like a small piece of candy or an extra book at bedtime. If their attitude was exceptional for a long period of time, I occasionally returned a ticket. If they went so many days without losing a single ticket, they got a bigger reward. 

You could do something like that for refusals. Refuse to guess a word, lose a ticket (but keeps the ticket if she guesses the wrong word, it's the refusal you're addressing). I would restrict it to blatant refusals to work or engage, the really obvious stuff. And it's short-term, maybe two or three weeks, not forever. You could adjust it to earning tickets only if you think that might work better. "You tried to figure out every word today, here's a ticket! You really worked hard when I had you change methods, even though you didn't like it, I think that earns two tickets." 

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, that's actually a discussion we keep having. DD8 has THICK hair, so if we don't brush it every day, it's ridiculous. And she's also a pain in the rear when I brush it. 

Is it reasonable to ask her to take care of her own hair or else cut it? Because that's kind of what we're coming to, but I don't know if that's expecting too much of her. But it's really hard to stay on top of her for stuff she doesn't want to do!! 

Hair that's thick or difficult to brush is directly related to not wanting to brush it, lol. And I know it's a pain for her to be a pain when you're doing something for her - believe me, I know - but it might be easier and more relationship-building in the long run to resign yourself to brushing her hair every morning and evening, even if she complains. That is, if she doesn't want to cut it. 

That's what I decided, for a few reasons. One, I was very big into my kids choosing what to do with their own bodies. They didn't have to kiss or hug anyone if they didn't want to, and they didn't have to cut their hair if they didn't want to. Two, I have very clear memories of shrieking like I was being burned at the stake when my oldest sister would brush my hair, lol. I hated brushing my hair or having it brushed, but I loved my long hair, and I will always remember that she put up with that (although I still maintain that she was not the gentlest of brushers). Three, I have two cousins in their late forties who complain to this day about their mother making them have short hair because it was easier 😄

Detangler is worth any price you have to pay for it. Also, braiding helps tremendously. If she will sleep with it braided, everyone's life gets easier. 

[prairiewindmomma]

8 seemed really old and mature when my oldest was 8. He was, in fact, much more capable than my preschooler and toddler. I look at my 8 year old now and she is TINY compared to my teens. So, piece of advice #1: have some perspective. 8 year olds are actually quite young and developing. They are moving from little kid to big kid. There is a hormonal flux right around then, where there is some more emotional lability also. IME of parenting 3 gifted kids, my experience has been that my gifted kids have been more emotionally volatile. Books are written on this topic. 
 

So, advice #2: Be the mature adult that you are and keep your temper. No scolding, nagging, or shaming. Parent is a positive way. And the corollary to this is to expect some immature behavior...whining, meltdowns, refusals. It’s not an ideal response, but it happens. 

#3: If she shows you that she isn’t mature enough to do something on her own, do it with her for a while longer. As a parent I want my kids to be self sufficient so my time is freed up to do what I want and need to do. Parenting is actually time intensive. My own 8 year old is not fully independent on most tasks. I still follow up with flossing or hair or helping sweep the floor more often than not. Just because we want a child to be able to handle something doesn’t mean that they are. This is especially true of my gifted kids—-they are all over the bell curve with their relative abilities—usually either really far ahead or really far behind but rarely in the median.

#4 Have a printed school list or a schedule so she knows when she is going to be done. Most refusals for school work happen when there is nothing to look forward to at the end of the day and it feels like it will never end for them. The work seems pointless to them and they’d rather do something else.

#5 Don’t let the task list get in front of the relationship. Asking someone to brush their hair is, in fact, an emotional ask. They are actually quite content in the moment having unbrushed hair or they would’ve brushed it themselves. If all you do all day is make withdrawals from the account without putting back in, the relationship can break down and the power struggles become more fierce.

6. it is unreasonable for her to manage her own waist length hair at 8. I say this having had waist length hair and having a daughter with waist length hair currently. I still braid my 12 year old’s hair a few times a week after helping her  deep condition and detangle.  This is double true if there is any wave or curl to it.

[East Coast Sue]

I've had too much experience with this issue... So, here are some things I've tried:

- Make a point of connecting with your dd on topics that have nothing to do with schoolwork.  For example, share a journal book that you pass back and forth and agree to stay on completely neutral topics- like what is your favorite season and why?  What is your favorite candy? Here is a suggested book if you need help with topics and questions? https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_atf_aps_sr_pg1_1?ie=UTF8&adId=A029434713W4QF8DSSKU&url=%2FJust-Between-Us-Daughter-No-Stress%2Fdp%2F0811868958%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1_sspa%3Fdchild%3D1%26keywords%3Dmother%2Bdaughter%2Bjournal%26qid%3D1603397936%26sr%3D8-1-spons%26psc%3D1&qualifier=1603397936&id=778395378615046&widgetName=sp_atf

- Try to minimize the output required and select options that are objective.  Like complete three lessons in Khan Algebra or reach 90% proficiency in IXL (insert selected skills) or 5 lessons in duolingo.  Post more about the specifics and maybe we can offer suggestions for specific classes.  I know it can be super challenging with gifted kids when they are young- it does get better, I promise.  

- Build in rewards that will give motivation.  (Complete schoolwork without meltdowns to earn a movie night on Fridays)

- Consider giving her an agenda/calendar and ask her to plan her day.  I know this can be a lot of work for you but is it possible to list her weekly assignments and she can assign them by day?  If this is too much for her than perhaps you can give her a checklist and she can check off the work she completes.  You can then give her feedback on the checklist- For example, You can write:  re-write the proof neatly for #7 or Great Work! (add a sparkly sticker because everyone loves sparkles, right?)

[prairiewindmomma]

The comments about input v output are spot on. My kids can handle a ton of input, but the output is where nearly all refusals come from. 

[TAFKAPastry]

I did the hair of all my girls until they were in sixth or so, and did tangle checks every few days on one of them because her hair was as thick as my wrist and waist length, it was just too much to manage. It’s a silly thing to make a battle, if daily reminders aren’t doing it just ask her to bring you the hair stuff before breakfast instead, so at least once daily it’s getting taken care of 🙂

[Not_a_Number]

Deleted for privacy reasons. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[katilac]

30 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmmm. That's not a bad idea. She has a schedule on the wall, but maybe sometimes she can hold on to is a good idea. 

But then what happens when she doesn't actually DO it?  

Oh, that's easy. Breakfast after hair is brushed, evening snack after hair is brushed. Substitute whatever she values, it can be two different things for morning and night or even day to day, but a routine is easier. I had different things attached to meals, snacks, screen time, going to the park (which we could do daily, as it's right down the street). A quick cleanup of all areas was attached to lunch and supper for years upon years at my house. 

You don't need a schedule, but a routine is worth its weight in gold. If you already have somewhat of a routine, you're halfway there and just need to attach habits to triggers. Brushing her hair can be attached to the brushing her teeth trigger, which is presumably already in place. Checklists and visual reminders for as long as it takes (visual reminder could be a laminated photo on mirror, showing clothes>>toothbrush>>hairbrush>>breakfast, or whatever is pertinent). Structure the environment for as much easy success as possible; along with lists, reminders, and habit triggers, make sure she has the right brush for her hair type, preferably in a color she loves, and that is both easily accessible and easy to put away. You want her to save her willpower for the important things; make as many things as possible easy and routine. 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by katilac