To tough love or not to tough love

[Carrie12345]

Say that you’re normally the “fixer”.  A sibling has an emergency, you give or loan cash. A sibling is in a tough spot, you give advice. A sibling needs to vent, you empathize. You provide a place to crash when needed, you commit to raising kids if needed, you send extra gifts when helpful, blah, blah, blah. You and your spouse are first-borns, were considered screw ups at one point, and grew up to become the people to turn to.  For the most part, you’re grateful to be in that position.

But then say that there’s a situation in which you have literally NO good advice and no real way of helping.  And it’s a pretty bad situation; not one that a few hundred dollars or couch space can make much of a dent in. A pandemic makes all normal-times advice basically irrelevant.  (Medically fragile people are involved.) There’s a long-odds chance that a few months of sheer misery and someone completely changing their near-future goals (of which there are currently no realistic ones) could create opportunity, but you’re pretty certain they’re not willing to do that.  But, as almost always around here, kids are involved.

At this point, “tough love” is the only doable thing on my end, but the person is in a fragile emotional state. I’m terrified of that backfiring.  But, in the meantime, I’m clearly coming across as weird (for me) by not having much to say at all.  I should probably add that this sibling is trained in interpersonal communication so, no, there’s no way she hasn’t noticed that I’m not being my usual self! We’ve enjoyed psychoanalyzing each other for years and I have very obviously not taken a crack at her during this time.

I don’t know what to say to her that won’t make her feel more stuck than she already does, or crush her hopes more than they already are. But there’s very little else to say after so many “I’m sorry”s and “I don’t know what to say”s.

(Yes, she’s my favorite.)

I guess I don’t really know what my actual question is.  I’m just feeling awful. Mostly because kids. They’re my weakness, lol.

[freesia]

I think those of us who are fixers need to become comfortable saying “I’m sorry” and “I don’t know what to say.”  Sometimes those are powerful. Many times they are true.  We can’t fix everything and by not fixing everything we can shift responsibly to those who it belongs and new openings can happen.  And sometimes there isn’t an obvious path and we just need to be there for each other.

~signed a sister fixer 

[mommyoffive]

I like the other advice too.  Without knowing what is going on, I don't think I would be the tough love this year.  I think 2020 has been so hard and stressful for a lot of people.   I think if all you can do is be there emotionally as a friend that is enough. 

[Bambam]

I'm a fixer too. But, unfortunately, you can't fix everything. 

I think I'd just be honest with her - I'm so sorry, I can't think of any way to help, but I'm hear to listen if/when you need that.  

If appropriate though, I would point out any potential negative impact on the innocent children and offer advice about protecting them? 
 

[Carrie12345]

Just now, Bambam said:

I'm a fixer too. But, unfortunately, you can't fix everything. 

I think I'd just be honest with her - I'm so sorry, I can't think of any way to help, but I'm hear to listen if/when you need that.  

If appropriate though, I would point out any potential negative impact on the innocent children and offer advice about protecting them? 
 

Yeah, that’s where tough love and hurt feelings start to get murky.  She has very lovely philosophies and goals for raising small children. I don’t know if any even non-pandemic “fixes” could be had without drastic changes to the implementation of those philosophies and goals, and I think that’s a big part of the stuck. She has experience as a professional in the negative impacts of situations on children and seems to be in a place of missing the forest for the trees. (Which even she knows is common for pros in their own space.)

I’m not saying it isn’t a subject to bring up, but it sure is a giant, loaded one!

She did take a giant leap out of a frying pan into another frying pan, but one that would be expected to love unconditionally.  Insurmountable conditions have been discovered.  To try to be fair, they come from both sides of the parties involved, but the serious concerns for the kids come from the pan being hot. Hoping the first pan doesn’t become a last resort, iykwim.

[Farrar]

I think it's okay to couch your tough love in all the things you said here... that in normal times, you'd do x, y, and z but can't. That this situation needs more than you can realistically give and you wish it was different. That the only thing you can give is the tough advice, but that you want the sibling to understand that it comes from the same place of love. And that it's just advice. That you're a fixer and feel like you need to give this advice. That it's all you can do. That you love them deeply and know it's a tough place. Tough places sometimes require tough decisions and tough advice.

[J-rap]

Is there a third option?  Like, giving her telephone numbers of agencies that can help her?

[Carrie12345]

12 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Is there a third option?  Like, giving her telephone numbers of agencies that can help her?

She does have those, and is receiving what she’s eligible for.

3 minutes ago, Heigh Ho said:

Can you offer respite to the children?

Technically, yes, but I know that won’t be a thing. Distance is an enormous factor.  If she were nearby, everything would be different. But she also thinks this area is its own ring of hell. I’ve begged her to be closer for years.

[RootAnn]

[Personal story removed]

I will always live with my memory of that 'tough love' talk.

Reminder:  please don't quote.

Edited October 6, 2020 by RootAnn

[JustEm]

I'm sorry @RootAnn 

[JustEm]

I'm a huge proponent of tough love when it is called for but I don't think 2020 is the year to do it.  Just the stress of the pandemic is enough to push someone off the edge when something else comes up.  I don't know if having more details about the actual situation would change my mind but I'm struggling to think of things that would make me implement tough love this year.

[SKL]

If you can't fix it, then you can't fix it.

Has she asked your opinion?  If so, give it, but limited to your recommended next steps.  If she didn't ask, then just send love.

I think it is fine to just acknowledge that whatever she's going through is hard and sad.  Sometimes that's the best you can do.

[Carrie12345]

Got a bit cornered this morning after having a conversation with our parent last night. Okay, more than a bit cornered and directly asked what I thought.  Didn’t have much choice but to share that I don’t see any signs of potential improvement. 
Hasn’t exactly been received well, not that it could be. 
Oy, my stomach. 
I’ve expressed my limited abilities are available to her, but I’m guessing she’s still processing. 
 

I want so badly to be more specific, but I feel oogie about it already. 

[catz]

Have you thought of talking to a therapist or something about learning to let go, your family relationship dynamics, etc?  I agree 2020 isn't a great year for tough love.  But I also think you need to put on your own life preserver first and those immediately around you next.  If this sibling is at a distance and has no intentions of being closer, you can only do so much.  You have a lot on your plate already and it is a hard time.  

If your parents/sibling directly asked for your opinion and didn't like it, that is on them.  If these are hard conversations that lead to hard feelings and ongoing stress for you, maybe you need to not get into these conversations with them.  I am finding my bandwidth is fairly thin right now attempting to be grounded and sane for the people here.  I also think wrapping your responses in your current struggles can help if it might just appear like your distancing ("I wish I could fly out to help but ..... Please know I love you and just want the best for your and yours.").

[Jean in Newcastle]

It's not tough love to acknowledge that something is out of your control.  And as much as you love your (presumably adult) sister, it really isn't your job to fix everything for her. In fact, I feel like it can be harmful to people to be rescued all the time.  That doesn't mean that you can't offer advice if you have it, can't be a sympathetic ear or can't offer tangible help as  you are able.    I really like FuzzyCatz advice. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Have you thought of talking to a therapist or something about learning to let go, your family relationship dynamics, etc?  I agree 2020 isn't a great year for tough love.  But I also think you need to put on your own life preserver first and those immediately around you next.  If this sibling is at a distance and has no intentions of being closer, you can only do so much.  You have a lot on your plate already and it is a hard time.  

If your parents/sibling directly asked for your opinion and didn't like it, that is on them.  If these are hard conversations that lead to hard feelings and ongoing stress for you, maybe you need to not get into these conversations with them.  I am finding my bandwidth is fairly thin right now attempting to be grounded and sane for the people here.  I also think wrapping your responses in your current struggles can help if it might just appear like your distancing ("I wish I could fly out to help but ..... Please know I love you and just want the best for your and yours.").

No, my transformational work was focused on protecting myself and my family from the purposeful harm caused by relatives with personality disorders and/or maladaptive behaviors who didn’t accept personal responsibility for situations they didn’t wish to actually improve.  So, while my boundaries may have some fuzzy edges, they do have a steel core that specific people can no longer get through.

Today was the first time I reiterated that I have a temporary but open door in probably close to a year, so I don’t consider her lack of reply to be a rejection of that idea just yet.  She has a lot to contemplate right now, including health and legal aspects in addition to everything else. In no way is she trying to be a burden to absolutely anyone. She’s just in a deeply sucky situation, and would be feeling all of the same things if it were me.  She certainly has for my worst times.

[HS Mom in NC]

Without knowing the details I have to make some general statements.

Maybe it's time to stop identifying as the fixer.  Can you focus on other aspects of your identity instead? Also, not everything is fixable. Making an uneasy peace with that is very important because it means accepting reality.   

If the family dynamics with the family member doing the asking aren't healthy, I would view any questions from them about what I thought on a family matters as traps to be avoided. Only engage in conversations with healthy, constructive family members.

If you choose to engage from here on out you can simply state the truth, "I don't have any advice, by you have my sympathy.  This must be very hard for you.  I'm so sorry you're going through this." And that's it. Her feelings and her life aren't yours to manage. 

[Carrie12345]

19 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Without knowing the details I have to make some general statements.

Maybe it's time to stop identifying as the fixer.  Can you focus on other aspects of your identity instead? Also, not everything is fixable. Making an uneasy peace with that is very important because it means accepting reality.   

If the family dynamics with the family member doing the asking aren't healthy, I would view any questions from them about what I thought on a family matters as traps to be avoided. Only engage in conversations with healthy, constructive family members.

If you choose to engage from here on out you can simply state the truth, "I don't have any advice, by you have my sympathy.  This must be very hard for you.  I'm so sorry you're going through this." And that's it. Her feelings and her life aren't yours to manage. 

In general situations, I’m inclined to agree with you.
I hate that my reluctance to be more detailed seems to translate to negative impressions of my sister, or of me, but I realize that’s par for the course.

Just to add a little perspective, the degree of the situation came to light to me just over 24 hours ago.  The confirmation from the other side, less than that. The follow up conversation only a few hours ago now.  Just in case I’ve given the impression that I’ve been agonizing over this for months.  It’s been barely more than a day.

[annandatje]

I would try to persuade her and the children to move in with me, and then we could work together on a long term plan for her to become self-sufficient to extent possible.  Not a proponent of tough love except in very limited situations such as serious addiction issues.

[HS Mom in NC]

49 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

In general situations, I’m inclined to agree with you.
I hate that my reluctance to be more detailed seems to translate to negative impressions of my sister, or of me, but I realize that’s par for the course.

Just to add a little perspective, the degree of the situation came to light to me just over 24 hours ago.  The confirmation from the other side, less than that. The follow up conversation only a few hours ago now.  Just in case I’ve given the impression that I’ve been agonizing over this for months.  It’s been barely more than a day.

I don't see a short time frame as relevant to any of my statements, but even if they were, your posts are full of ongoing history.  You begin your first sentence in your first post that you've normally been the fixer.  You say in another post downthread that you've had to set boundaries with family members due to personality disorders and maladaptive behaviors. There appears to be some sort of evidence you've seen that demonstrates that a person involved is unwilling reset goals more realistically.  So that appears, from out here, to look like an long, complicated, interconnected, ongoing problem with lots of parts, not a new problem out of the blue yesterday.

It might be time to work on accepting reality, even though reality is awful. Maybe you should focus your energies on dealing with your feelings about not being able to control or alter an awful reality.

[sassenach]

This doesn’t sound like tough love so much as it does that your rescuing capabilities have run dry. Tough love is when you let people face the consequences of their life choices even though you could bail them out. Usually in the hope that they learn not to get themselves into unsalvagable situations, like right now. 
 

 

[Alicia64]

I think it's a huge kindness to say, "Remember you can do hard things."

Sometimes just believing in people can help so much.

Hugs to you,

W.

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I don't see a short time frame as relevant to any of my statements, but even if they were, your posts are full of ongoing history.  You begin your first sentence in your first post that you've normally been the fixer.  You say in another post downthread that you've had to set boundaries with family members due to personality disorders and maladaptive behaviors. There appears to be some sort of evidence you've seen that demonstrates that a person involved is unwilling reset goals more realistically.  So that appears, from out here, to look like an long, complicated, interconnected, ongoing problem with lots of parts, not a new problem out of the blue yesterday.

It might be time to work on accepting reality, even though reality is awful. Maybe you should focus your energies on dealing with your feelings about not being able to control or alter an awful reality.

Sorry.  Combined, we have 3 siblings as well as step siblings. The sibling in question is not one of the siblings (or parents) who’ve put us through hell. She’s the one going through it.

[Clemsondana]

The few times that I've been in that sort of situation, where I don't see good options but also don't see any way that I can really do much, either, I just sympathize and listen, and also help them to see their options.  I think it can be helpful to hear 'It looks like you have 3 choices...live with the current situation, make change X with sacrifice Y, or go with option Z' or something like that.  In any given situation that might not be helpful, obviously, but when interacting with other family members (usually over things that aren't a big deal) I realized that I tend to make decisions quickly because I usually pare them down to a finite number of options or some sort of decision tree rather than thinking about all of the circumstances.  This can have its downsides, but if she's at a crossroads then maybe helping her see the choices and then doing whatever encouraging or supporting is possible with the choice she made would help?  It's not tough love - it's more reminding them that they have options (even if sometimes none are good) and they have the ability to pick one with some idea as to what it entails.  

[Carrie12345]

So, even though I’ve been vague, I don’t want to leave it all just hanging like that. I was extra worried last night with the way she left the conversation where I basically told her I honestly see the situation getting worse and she needs to figure out what to do. So dh, the family clown, checked in on her, made her laugh, reiterated our less than ideal but better than where she is offer, and she said she had a lot to think about. I’m feeling a little bit better about where her head’s at, which is not entirely the sand.

I’ve decided to add some details that I hope to remember to come back and delete because I know that vague can be annoying and maybe there are some people who have some nuggets of wisdom to share.

<deleted>

I don’t know what she will decide, and I do know I can’t force her to make any decisions. It’s complicated and messy and those still aren’t all of the details, but it’s the basic gist.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Carrie12345

[RootAnn]

In some areas of the country, there are charities who have housing for this tyoe of situation. Catholic Charities (don't have to be Catholic) is sometimes a good start if she hasn't already checked with them. If they don't have space, they can often help with rent, deposits, and/or furnishings/food For the first couple of months.

[gardenmom5]

19 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Without knowing the details I have to make some general statements.

Maybe it's time to stop identifying as the fixer.  Can you focus on other aspects of your identity instead? Also, not everything is fixable. Making an uneasy peace with that is very important because it means accepting reality.   

If the family dynamics with the family member doing the asking aren't healthy, I would view any questions from them about what I thought on a family matters as traps to be avoided. Only engage in conversations with healthy, constructive family members.

If you choose to engage from here on out you can simply state the truth, "I don't have any advice, by you have my sympathy.  This must be very hard for you.  I'm so sorry you're going through this." And that's it. Her feelings and her life aren't yours to manage. 

This.

People make their own choices.

My covert narcissist grandmother loved "fixing" things for my OLDER sister.  (constantly giving her money, etc. It made her feel important to "save" her.  It was very twisted.)  When I was in my twenties, had little kids, my  own bills, etc. -   I realized I was being roped in/groomed to becoming the replacement to "save" my sister including financially.  (because she had such a hard life.  If I had a nickel for every time I heard that phrase . . . . )  My sister was not mentally ill, she was not disabled (she was also married. her husband worked. my grandmother gave them money for a down payment on a house, (I had a house, so my sister had to have a house.)  they weren't renting)

- bailing someone out who constantly makes poor choices is enabling, not helping.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Giving someone advice mixed with love and humor is exactly the right thing to do. Then let them figure it out. They might not figure it out the way that you want, but you can’t make the choices for them. That’s the tough part of loving people who might not always make the best choices. But I guess the tough love part is letting them experience the consequences of those choices even while offering them alternative choices. 

[JustEm]

I missed the details but I'm glad to hear that your dh was able to reach out and hopefully help a bit. I'll be praying that she makes the best decision available to her and whoever else is involved