Help with responding to parents again? Covid-related

[Moonhawk]

So, my mom sent another article to "help me understand how silly this all is." 

https://jamesfetzer.org/2020/06/swiss-research-report-facts-about-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR058L2QMI0D37BiZh2nvw3fvVNO1rIAiSk8xO5WQz_ZFYAX0typ3qnhdRc

I read up through point 5 (out of 30) and just got brain fatigue. This is better laid out and has a lot of fancy links and I don't have the time or the energy or mental fortitude to go through it all. 

[Assuming that there has to be a response,] How would you respond to this? Generally, or point by point?

Any advice or wording appreciated. Also, coffee, chocolate and alcohol will be accepted. 😉

[Janeway]

Did you read it? I am not seeing anything confusing in it. I do not understand why people have given up so much of their lives and want to control others so much and shut down other people's lives so much. I mean, if someone wants to be so scared of Covid that they want to be shut-ins, not get medical care, not go anywhere, not see family, maybe die alone, have no human contact, it should be their choice. But it should be the choice of the rest of us who want to live to go on living.

[Ailaena]

10 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Did you read it? I am not seeing anything confusing in it. I do not understand why people have given up so much of their lives and want to control others so much and shut down other people's lives so much. I mean, if someone wants to be so scared of Covid that they want to be shut-ins, not get medical care, not go anywhere, not see family, maybe die alone, have no human contact, it should be their choice. But it should be the choice of the rest of us who want to live to go on living.

Is this a straw-man fallacy or a false dilemma?  It’s been so long since I’ve studied them.

[katilac]

17 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 [Assuming that there has to be a response,] How would you respond to this? Generally, or point by point?

She sent it by email? I never respond to those, no matter the subject, even if the message says let me know what you think. A link like this one, I wouldn't even bother to read. 

If she brings it up, I would simply say, we are going to have to agree to disagree, I'm not going to discuss it every time we talk and I'm not going to change (whatever she wants you to change, like not physically distancing or whatever). 

Depending on the person and how much we've talked about it already, I might say something like: while I'm sure some predictions will be proven wrong, I don't think there's a conspiracy so I'm going to stick to reading mainstream information. Or, I'm choosing to be cautious in the hopes of protecting others. 

 

[J-rap]

I wouldn't have the energy to do a point-by-point response.  I might send her this article from Wiki:

James Henry Fetzer (born December 6, 1940) is a former professor of the philosophy of science at the University of Minnesota Duluth and a conspiracy theorist. In the late 1970s, Fetzer worked on assessing and clarifying the forms and foundations of scientific explanation, probability in science, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of cognitive science, especially artificial intelligence and computer science.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]}

In the early 1990s, Fetzer began to promote John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, later 9/11 conspiracy theories, Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories regarding the 2002 death of Senator Paul Wellstone and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories since the multiple fatalities in 2012. He cofounded Scholars for 9/11 Truth in 2005,^[7] and claims that the United States government, Israeli government and Israeli Mossad are involved in these and other conspiracies. 

Or even just this:

Fetzer himself has said of the Holocaust: "My research on the Holocaust narrative suggests that it is not only untrue but probably false and not remotely scientifically sustainable."

With a note:  "I will continue to put my trust in the broad swath of respected medical research hospitals and actual health experts rather than James Fetzer, or Swiss Policy Research which is known for its conspiracy-leaning promotion of unproven claims, poor sources, and lack of transparency."

[katilac]

1 minute ago, J-rap said:

I wouldn't have the energy to do a point-by-point response.  I might send her this article from Wiki:

James Henry Fetzer (born December 6, 1940) is a former professor of the philosophy of science at the University of Minnesota Duluth and a conspiracy theorist. In the late 1970s, Fetzer worked on assessing and clarifying the forms and foundations of scientific explanation, probability in science, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of cognitive science, especially artificial intelligence and computer science.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]}

In the early 1990s, Fetzer began to promote John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, later 9/11 conspiracy theories, Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories regarding the 2002 death of Senator Paul Wellstone and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories since the multiple fatalities in 2012. He cofounded Scholars for 9/11 Truth in 2005,^[7] and claims that the United States government, Israeli government and Israeli Mossad are involved in these and other conspiracies. 

Or even just this:

Fetzer himself has said of the Holocaust: "My research on the Holocaust narrative suggests that it is not only untrue but probably false and not remotely scientifically sustainable."

With a note:  "I will continue to put my trust in the broad swath of respected medical research hospitals and actual health experts rather than James Fetzer, or Swiss Policy Research which is known for its conspiracy-leaning promotion of unproven claims, poor sources, and lack of transparency."

Oh wow, yes, I would send this. If they still regard this person as a credible source, or a worthy human being, I would refuse to ever speak another word to them about it. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

33 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

So, my mom sent another article to "help me understand how silly this all is." 

https://jamesfetzer.org/2020/06/swiss-research-report-facts-about-covid-19/?fbclid=IwAR058L2QMI0D37BiZh2nvw3fvVNO1rIAiSk8xO5WQz_ZFYAX0typ3qnhdRc

I read up through point 5 (out of 30) and just got brain fatigue. This is better laid out and has a lot of fancy links and I don't have the time or the energy or mental fortitude to go through it all. 

[Assuming that there has to be a response,] How would you respond to this? Generally, or point by point?

Any advice or wording appreciated. Also, coffee, chocolate and alcohol will be accepted. 😉

It's an old article that praises Sweden's response (as well as other things)  It's not only wrong on a lot of the "facts" but those facts that it's touting are dangerously outdated because more and more information is coming in.  Some of that information - younger people are indeed being affected, often with problems that look like they will cause long-term devastation to their health, Sweden itself is realizing that they goofed big time and are killing off their older generation with no herd immunity in sight, it has long been established that COVID19 is much more virulent and dangerous than the flu.

A response?  I like Katilac's "I am not going to discuss this further".  She's cherrypicking articles that she can find to support her (erroneous) view. 

[Tanaqui]

Reputable sources hardly ever use their own personal name as their URL. And it sure seems that this source isn't reputable in the least!

[Pen]

I’d ignore it

[Pen]

40 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I wouldn't have the energy to do a point-by-point response.  I might send her this article from Wiki:

James Henry Fetzer (born December 6, 1940) is a former professor of the philosophy of science at the University of Minnesota Duluth and a conspiracy theorist. In the late 1970s, Fetzer worked on assessing and clarifying the forms and foundations of scientific explanation, probability in science, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of cognitive science, especially artificial intelligence and computer science.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]}

In the early 1990s, Fetzer began to promote John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, later 9/11 conspiracy theories, Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories regarding the 2002 death of Senator Paul Wellstone and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories since the multiple fatalities in 2012. He cofounded Scholars for 9/11 Truth in 2005,^[7] and claims that the United States government, Israeli government and Israeli Mossad are involved in these and other conspiracies. 

Or even just this:

Fetzer himself has said of the Holocaust: "My research on the Holocaust narrative suggests that it is not only untrue but probably false and not remotely scientifically sustainable."

With a note:  "I will continue to put my trust in the broad swath of respected medical research hospitals and actual health experts rather than James Fetzer, or Swiss Policy Research which is known for its conspiracy-leaning promotion of unproven claims, poor sources, and lack of transparency."

 

It’s worrisome ...  

[Moonhawk]

I understand the "ignore" and "agree to disagree" and those general answers, but for a variety of reasons I'm choosing the other route. I didn't really want to get into the reasons here and distract, hence the "assuming there has to be a response" in the original post. 

But I do agree with those responses in general and it is a tempting option for sure. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

My son's very detailed response to someone who sent this to him back in April:

Sweden's numbers are beginning to tick up, and fast. They're not in crisis yet, but they seem to merely be a few weeks behind everyone else.

it's also somewhat misleading because it ignores that SK and Singapore have been doing aggressive targeted quarantine for those who test positive, so they're not doing nothing like a regular lay reading of this source will imply.

Having read the Spiegel article they link with regard to hospitals being empty - and talking with friends who speak German to confirm - one of the main groups they speak of is rehab facilities for joint injuries. Because joint surgeries are temporarily curtailed to avoid running into an expected peak in the next week or so, these rehab facilities are empty. Comparing New York seems important - there's documented lack of morgue space there; bodies are being stored in refrigerated trucks and any storage room in the hospitals that can be kept cold enough. The argumentative bent of this website seems to be that there's no big deal - but they don't start digging mass graves on Long Island for minor issues.

The paper cited from pubmed with regard to test efficacy they claim shows high false positive rate actually shows a small false positive rate but an (emphasized by the authors of the study) extremely significant false negative rate, leading to the opposite situation from what is being described in this site.

The entirety of the claim that young people aren't affected absent undiagnosed preexisting conditions is supported by a Yahoo News article about the death of a soccer coach in March.  One cannot draw conclusions about the general state of things off a single case from the very beginning of infectivity in a region - if anything, this merely confirms the supposition that the immunocompromised are the first to contract and die from a novel disease upon its arrival in a region.  You taught me this.

This site claims no aerosol dispersal and cites the WHO as a source, which seems like a deliberate misreading of the WHO article linked, which clearly states that most spread is via respiratory droplets exhaled, sneezed, or coughed by patients. This article that the site you linked claims says that aerosolization is not a concern in fact says,

"In the context of COVID-19, airborne transmission may be possible in specific circumstances and settings in which procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols are performed; i.e., endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, open suctioning, administration of nebulized treatment, manual ventilation before intubation, turning the patient to the prone position, disconnecting the patient from the ventilator, non-invasive positive-pressure ventilation, tracheostomy, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation."

WHO clearly thinks that aerosolization of infectious droplets may occur under scenarios with open circuit ventilators (which are similar in valve design to BVMs used for support prior to intubation). This is the opposite of what the website claims.

They also cite a piece in Zeit Online, and claim that this also means aerosolization from ventilator support is not a valid concern. They say that this article states that aerosolization is not a valid reason to go to more invasive ventilator setups. However, the article in question and research cited states instead that aerosolization is only not a concern in non-therapeutic, passing-in-grocery-store type scenarios. Therefore, social distancing measures and masks are mitigation implied by the data in question - nothing is said in the Zeit article about aerosolization with open circuit ventilation like the linked website claims.

Lastly, several of their claims about international scientists and the media blowing things out of proportion come from youtube videos linked from a website , off-guardian[DOT]com, that also engages in Syria chemical weapon and barrel bomb trutherism disguised as inside-baseball arms research discussion.  off-guardian also has a section devoted to convincing Bernie Sanders supporters to vote for Trump, which is merely mildly interesting (there's some overlap with Russia Today's editorials on the subject - Russia Today is well-known to have deep ties with the FSB and Russian intelligence), and a section about "corporate media" full of enough scare quotes to reduce the local corvid population to zero.  This latter article is designed as an attempt to funnel people to consentfactory[DOT]org, which is run by the same people - off-guardian reposted several of consentfactory's posts.  Not reposted: The one in which the author goes on a rant about the "global capitalist empire" of America, and then proceeds to parrot Russian agitprop talking points regarding the 2016 election, Bashar Al-Assad, Julian Assange, and Gaddafi so precisely I had to double check I hadn't ended up on Sputnik (Russia's official foreign-consumption state statement outlet).  It even claims that Gaddafi's slave markets were actually invented by the revolutionaries there and not merely inherited from him, despite there being documentation that they'd been active for decades.

 

Their sourcing for claims seems to be from three types of data source:

1) conspiracy theorist websites that have a rather interesting relationship with rather clear Russian agitprop

2) non-English news sources taken out of context or relying on points where machine translation is weak

3) cherry picking of details to support questionable claims

 

With this in mind, I began to dig deeper on the website itself, just to see what crawls out.

Hmm, I wonder where this'll take me?

 

Ah. It goes to them accusing a media source they themselves have written opinion pieces for of being NATO propaganda, unfairly critical of Russia's actions in Syria and the Ukraine.

HMMMMMMM.

also, that's a mistranslation on the machine's part. That's not "pedophobia", that's "pedophilia" - Pädokriminalität is literally "pedophilic crime".

This article alleges, using both well-documented and highly questionably sourced incidences, that the US controls the world via blackmailing people for being pedophiles.

 

So I headed over to the page on 'The Israel Lobby'.

 

 

...yeah.

 

They also allege that the Council for Foreign Relations, an American non-profit think tank, controls Fox, WaPo, CNN, et al.  In doing this it flirts with but does not directly engage with the known conspiracy theory that this organization is actually an Illuminati (or whoever it is one believes *really* rules the world) front.

 

...did I say "does not directly engage with"?  I meant "straight up alleges it, including theories about how their logo uses latin to boast about their omnipresence".

it then goes on to credibly support randomly selected Wikileaks articles and alleges that the CFR killed Kennedy because he fired one of their people after the disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion.

 

On the technical side: Their domain registration uses a whoisguard service (normal), and is hosted on standard wordpress infrastructure using Wordpress/Automattic Inc's hosting service. The server is located in California, which is... well, interesting for someone who alleges the threat model they have. 

[Pen]

32 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

I understand the "ignore" and "agree to disagree" and those general answers, but for a variety of reasons I'm choosing the other route. I didn't really want to get into the reasons here and distract, hence the "assuming there has to be a response" in the original post. 

But I do agree with those responses in general and it is a tempting option for sure. 

 

Then I like J-Rap’s

plus an information article about CV19 that you feel is more to the point.  

Some points like IFR are very hard to get accurately mid pandemic, but the idea that it isn’t affecting people in any ways but flu like death levels is clearly already wrong.

 

maybe the graphic: 

 

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2645529/

 

which shows comparison to many many things including influenza   ...  and stops in May. It is worse now. 

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Pen

[Scarlett]

I think consider the source is the best answer.  Wow.  I can’t even believe there are people who believe that junk.  No offense to your mom.  

[catz]

Does not align well with lots of other science out there. 

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/swiss-policy-research/

And linking from this Fetzer blog?  Sandy Hook cospiracy  theorist? Hard no.  

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

@Jean in Newcastle your son’s response is pretty amazing.

[Pen]

20 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

@Jean in Newcastle your son’s response is pretty amazing.

 

Yes! It is!

 

But might be too long and complicated for @Moonhawk ‘s parents?  

 

 

But maybe restricted to a few points it would be good?

 

I like the NY graves aspect (similar in Italy and  in Brazil, but they may not care about Italy, Brazil) 

 

I think some more recent information about effects on circulatory systems and younger people might be helpful.

 

the author seems to be a holocaust denier, and maybe thinks killing off older generation and others is a good thing...? 

 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, J-rap said:

I wouldn't have the energy to do a point-by-point response.  I might send her this article from Wiki:

James Henry Fetzer (born December 6, 1940) is a former professor of the philosophy of science at the University of Minnesota Duluth and a conspiracy theorist. In the late 1970s, Fetzer worked on assessing and clarifying the forms and foundations of scientific explanation, probability in science, philosophy of mind, and philosophy of cognitive science, especially artificial intelligence and computer science.^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]}

In the early 1990s, Fetzer began to promote John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, later 9/11 conspiracy theories, Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories regarding the 2002 death of Senator Paul Wellstone and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories since the multiple fatalities in 2012. He cofounded Scholars for 9/11 Truth in 2005,^[7] and claims that the United States government, Israeli government and Israeli Mossad are involved in these and other conspiracies. 

Or even just this:

Fetzer himself has said of the Holocaust: "My research on the Holocaust narrative suggests that it is not only untrue but probably false and not remotely scientifically sustainable."

With a note:  "I will continue to put my trust in the broad swath of respected medical research hospitals and actual health experts rather than James Fetzer, or Swiss Policy Research which is known for its conspiracy-leaning promotion of unproven claims, poor sources, and lack of transparency."

Oh my. . . .  yes, when the source is this obviously an idiot - expose the source .  

that has been my go to technique when I've bothered to go after the absurd garbage my brother sends me.  I never hear another word, until he finds something new.  mostly I just delete.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Yes! It is!

 

But might be too long and complicated for @Moonhawk ‘s parents?  

 

 

But maybe restricted to a few points it would be good?

 

I like the NY graves aspect (similar in Italy and  in Brazil, but they may not care about Italy, Brazil) 

 

I think some more recent information about effects on circulatory systems and younger people might be helpful.

 

the author seems to be a holocaust denier, and maybe thinks killing off older generation and others is a good thing...? 

 

I would just use this part:  “

Their sourcing for claims seems to be from three types of data source:

1) conspiracy theorist websites that have a rather interesting relationship with rather clear Russian agitprop

2) non-English news sources taken out of context or relying on points where machine translation is weak

3) cherry picking of details to support questionable claims”

[Pen]

37 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would just use this part:  “

Their sourcing for claims seems to be from three types of data source:

1) conspiracy theorist websites that have a rather interesting relationship with rather clear Russian agitprop

2) non-English news sources taken out of context or relying on points where machine translation is weak

3) cherry picking of details to support questionable claims”

 

Maybe that plus the animation of the graphic showing growth of CV19 deaths and surpassing many other death causes including influenza 

[Carol in Cal.]

If I felt I had to respond, I’d say, yes, this was interesting at the time but there is so much newer data that refutes it.  It just goes to show how dangerous it can be to rely on the earliest information—but of course, we have to start somewhere.

I have learned since then that this illness, when it’s bad, is REALLY bad, that it leaves very long-lasting health problems behind in many who get it, that it attacks many crucial physical systems including respiration (ability to breathe well) and circulation (causing multiple strokes), that it is often fatal, particularly in the elderly and obese, and that it spreads invisibly.  That being true, I’m being very careful for the sake of myself and those I love and my community.  

[Moonhawk]

Thanks all, putting something together, much appreciate the advice and hand holding on this one. It's been a hard day and it's nice to have at least one problem solved 🙂 

[Doodlebug]

It seems you feel you must respond even though it is causing you frustration.  I'm familiar with some motives that produce that feeling...  I want to be kind, to be loving, to prevent conflict, and sometimes out of concern about my mom's information resources. 

The absolute honest to goodness truth is that you don't have to respond to these kinds of emails.  Where you are feeling a frustrated obligation to respond to your mom, that's the time I know I need to press pause and consider: she is an adult and I am an adult. We are both in full knowledge of the others' views.  It isn't her job to police me.  And it is not my responsibility to police her or her information sources.  It really is more a boundary issue than a covid-19 misinformation issue.

I'm not saying you should never engage covid-19 issues, but intimate relationships give us a front row seat to others' anxieties, and we typically have family patterns in motion that compel both parties to react in a certain way.  It's okay to call intermission on engaging this issue with her.  From personal experience, my absence in these conversations with my mom has produced far more thoughtfulness on her part than had we continued engaging in the same way.  

Wishing you all the best as you push forward with your mom!  It is hard!

[Moonhawk]

@J-rap Thank you! For the James Fetzer information, this was completely new to her and went very far in immediately discrediting a lot of it. I added some stuff about the Swiss Policy Research as well to kick it all down.

@Jean in Newcastle Thank you for your son's response. I don't know how much of it she actually read (I copy+Pasted sections) but she took away the general impression that the source was manipulating facts or spreading misinformation.

@WendyAndMilo I used your summary thing as well and I think it helped her encapsulate the rest of what I gave her. 

I used some other sources and things from other replies, too, so thank you all.

I got a positive response from her on this. Apparently her friends are forwarding her these links along with their endorsement. She said she will check who is writing the article first from now on, THANKS!!

An interesting aside: my mom and her friends (at least the ones involved) all have at least a masters degree in Library Science. 😕  You have no idea how well I had to source my high school papers, lol. Oh how the turn tables...

I'm treating this as a "as I grow up and you grow down" thing, even if it's difficult. I am not able to financially care for my parents. I am not able to do much physical care for my parents. I cannot visit them or talk on the phone as long as she likes. This is an act of service that is difficult but is what I can do in the now to help them. With how they are being about this (and other health issues) I don't know how much longer I'll have, so I am going to do it as long as I can.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Moonhawk

[Pen]

11 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

@J-rap Thank you! For the James Fetzer information, this was completely new to her and went very far in immediately discrediting a lot of it. I added some stuff about the Swiss Policy Research as well to kick it all down.

@Jean in Newcastle Thank you for your son's response. I don't know how much of it she actually read (I copy+Pasted sections) but she took away the general impression that the source was manipulating facts or spreading misinformation.

@WendyAndMilo I used your summary thing as well and I think it helped her encapsulate the rest of what I gave her. 

I used some other sources and things from other replies, too, so thank you all.

I got a positive response from her on this. Apparently her friends are forwarding her these links along with their endorsement. She said she will check who is writing the article first from now on, THANKS!!

An interesting aside: my mom and her friends (at least the ones involved) all have at least a masters degree in Library Science. 😕  You have no idea how well I had to source my high school papers, lol. Oh how the turn tables...

I'm treating this as a "as I grow up and you grow down" thing, even if it's difficult. I am not able to financially care for my parents. I am not able to do much physical care for my parents. I cannot visit them or talk on the phone as long as she likes. This is an act of service that is difficult but is what I can do in the now to help them. With how they are being about this (and other health issues) I don't know how much longer I'll have, so I am going to do it as long as I can.

 

That’s wonderful!!!

And I am glad you didn’t choose my suggestion to ignore it!

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Pen