Executive Functioning issues in teen

[MEmama]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

How about some other physical problem?   Nutrition has been raised, and there are also some illnesses that could affect brain functioning.  

How about second hand exposures? Vaping exposure second hand? Toxic products in classrooms?

 Had anything changed in his life soon before he reached burnout / floundering stage?  new Driver stress?  Girls?  Problem with one friend you mentioned? 

 

9 hours ago, Pen said:

Last year with 2 APs he was managing well. Managing classes plus running plus 2 APs successfully would take substantial EF.   Is it true that last year he was doing well, wasn’t secretly floundering? 

If so, Besides ramping up to 4 APs, what’s different? 

How about head injuries? 

Vision? 

Nutrition and health are excellent. He gets lots of regular sleep (usually 9:30-6, earlier to bed recently) and of course, lots of exercise. No big changes in his life.

He went through a similar period last year, and IIRC the year before. This is the worst, though.

I KNOW that better planning and organization would be beneficial. I just need to learn about more tools to offer up. Letting him fail as others have done for their kids will NOT be beneficial to him. No judgement. We all know our own kids.

[MEmama]

10 hours ago, Arcadia said:

Has he had midterms yet? If not the midterms and finals can pull a grade way up due to heavier weightage.

Your first sentence and the second quarter being the issue makes me think he does have test anxiety which could be due to all the hype about college applications and admissions in junior year. I mean kids start their college applications in the summer right after end of 11th grade and some kids did college tours in the summer before 11th. The more internal pressure to get A, the harder it might be.

Does he have any self calming techniques that work for him? While I am agnostic, I went to a Roman Catholic school for preK to 6th. Saying 15 Hail Mary in the exam hall was very calming for me while waiting to be allowed to start the exam. 

Midterms are a couple weeks out. He definitely feels increasing pressure to pull grades up.

Test anxiety is an interesting thought. I’ll think more on that and see what ideas he has. There must be strategies out there to help.

Internal pressure, oh yes. I know with your kids you understand it well. It doesn’t always come from mama. 😉

He doesn’t have self calming strategies that I’m aware of. Running definitely helps him reduce stress.

Edited January 9, 2020 by MEmama

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Yup, definitely dealing with those issues. Plus lost papers, not remembering all the details, and so on. These are the issues I was hoping to gain some insight on. He’s always struggled with organization and time management. It’s times like these when it all comes to a head, you know?
 

Yes, that’s a big goal, figuring out ways to help him with anxiety. And figuring out the root cause, an issue that precedes his current schoolwork.

At 5 years old he made it his goal to go to MIT (only in the last couple of years has he let it go). Who knows where they pick it up. It's definitely reinforced daily by his peer group.

Gotcha. Ok, so there may be true EF issues there, if you think those preceded the anxiety, versus the other way around. That's important to pull apart. 

If so, and I hate to be the med pusher here, but have you considered meds? They were nothing short of life changing for me. All my life I pushed back on lists, calendars, etc - mostly because I KNEW I couldn't keep up with them anyway so it was just one more thing to fail at or stress about. Now I can make them work, which is amazing. 

Also, anyway to get him to spend some time around some kids with different trajectories or perspectives? To realize that the particular path he is on is not the only valid one? Not that he should change his goals, but understand that they are not the only thing in the world, you know? Or maybe watch some Ted Talks together about people who are successful out of the box type people?

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

 

Nutrition and health are excellent. He gets lots of regular sleep (usually 9:30-6, earlier to bed recently) and of course, lots of exercise. No big changes in his life.

He went through a similar period last year, and IIRC the year before. This is the worst, though.

I KNOW that better planning and organization would be beneficial. I just need to learn about more tools to offer up. Letting him fail as others have done for their kids will NOT be beneficial to him. No judgement. We all know our own kids.

It may be more about you helping him do it than him doing it, at this phase. He is too overwhelmed to be learning another new task right now. the time to learn that stuff is before getting overwhelmed. So I'd try to get him on board with you going over assignments with him eat week/day, etc. Will the teachers you talked to about this be able/willing to send YOU the assignments each day, with due dates, or something? So you can help him track them - maybe on a big white board in the kitchen or something? 

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Gotcha. Ok, so there may be true EF issues there, if you think those preceded the anxiety, versus the other way around. That's important to pull apart. 

If so, and I hate to be the med pusher here, but have you considered meds? They were nothing short of life changing for me. All my life I pushed back on lists, calendars, etc - mostly because I KNEW I couldn't keep up with them anyway so it was just one more thing to fail at or stress about. Now I can make them work, which is amazing. 

Also, anyway to get him to spend some time around some kids with different trajectories or perspectives? To realize that the particular path he is on is not the only valid one? Not that he should change his goals, but understand that they are not the only thing in the world, you know? Or maybe watch some Ted Talks together about people who are successful out of the box type people?

It may be more about you helping him do it than him doing it, at this phase. He is too overwhelmed to be learning another new task right now. the time to learn that stuff is before getting overwhelmed. So I'd try to get him on board with you going over assignments with him eat week/day, etc. Will the teachers you talked to about this be able/willing to send YOU the assignments each day, with due dates, or something? So you can help him track them - maybe on a big white board in the kitchen or something? 

Thank you for understanding.

Those are exactly the words he uses when I mention planners, that it causes *more* stress. Of course I don’t know if that’s true for him, since he’s never really tried, or if he’s just being a stubborn teenager. 😉

While his daily group of friends take all the same classes (and many are runners), he does know kids on other paths. He holds zero judgement about any being “better” or “worse” than another. He just wants what he wants for himself. What he wants is attainable (we do occasionally have to talk him down, but again, teens should dream too), as long as he has the right tools and strategies to keep himself in check. 
 

Yes! I totally agree he can’t handle one more thing. I’m fully prepared to do anything I can for him, and have been. I feel out of ideas. 

 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

He went through a similar period last year, and IIRC the year before. This is the worst, though.

I KNOW that better planning and organization would be beneficial. I just need to learn about more tools to offer up. Letting him fail as others have done for their kids will NOT be beneficial to him. No judgement. We all know our own kids.

 

What is similar about those times when he flounders? Seasonal allergies? More hectic running schedule? 

My DS14 needs more organization help then DS15 but both benefits from some help. Subject materials are grouped by IKEA stainless steel magazine holders (if only thin books) or by expedit/kallax cubes (for books and binders). That makes it easier for my kids to not misplace their stuff and easier to pack their schoolbags before bedtime. For example, DS15 has dual enrollment Math on Monday and Wednesday, dual enrollment Japanese on Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, recreational German on Saturday. He just do his work and puts them away, and puts the correct set of stuff in his bag before he sleeps because we leave the house before 8am.

His instructors use two different system, one is Canvas and one is a learning management system that I don’t know what brand. He checks the to-do list in those systems and prioritize what needs to be done in what order. I have access via my parent account to all except for his community college one. I’ll look daily and remind. 

All the bosses I worked for have executive secretaries. I don’t feel bad helping whatever way I can even for my kid who needs less help. My DS15 would likely have misplaced his English readings (books) if he didn’t have a cubbyhole (expedit cube) to put all of them in.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Arcadia
Typing mistakes before caffeine :p

[Acadie]

To address the immediate issue, I'd probably start with these things:

--If it's at all possible, have him drop down to a regular class (not Honors) in at least one of his courses. Perhaps his two Honors classes may be candidates for dropping a level--I'd deeply explore that option. With him, with his counselors, as an independent study, whatever. Jumping through hoops to do so. My daughter's counselor said dropping a level in math or foreign language might get negative attention from college admissions, but with other classes I think you have more wiggle room. 

--If finances allow, try hiring an EF coach. If you like I could ask my friend who works with her son. I know it's someone in NY and they work remotely. Some of the resistance you're seeing to your suggestions might simply dissolve if he's working with someone else. 

--Help him manage his time in the evenings in whatever ways you can. One thing that helps here is setting dinnertime as early as possible (even asking my high schooler to come home a little earlier than she would otherwise) so there's more time in the evenings to fit in both study and down time.

--Suggest pomodoros--setting a timer to work for 25 minutes, then taking a break--and if it's an especially hard evening, offer a cool snack/bribe for the break time. (The other night, when my 13 yo was overwhelmed, I scrapped my dinner plan and instead made steak, which she loves, while she started a pomodoro. By the time dinner was on the table, she'd finished two assignments in 25 min, taken a break, and was relieved and happy with her progress.)  In an ideal world, we'd all be intrinsically motivated all the time, but the reality is we have to do things we don't want to do, and sometimes work feels overwhelming to adults too. The occasional steak or peanut M&Ms or whatever can be a smart way to get done what you need to do with less angst. 

--Look at phone/screeen use. When dd17 got Instagram, her stress level went way up, and it wasn't social stress. My theory is that her "down time" on Instagram no longer actually allowed her brain to relax and unwind. It's fun but not relaxing, if that makes sense. I'm trying to create a routine where we all charge our phones for a couple hours in the evening. It kind of works, but since so many assignments involve screens sometimes my girls have to use their phones during that time.

--For a planner, I really like the Order Out of Chaos student planner, designed by a mom for her son with ADD. The visual organization is great. I know you have some barriers to getting him to use a planner, but if paper seems like the thing, this one is great. It has blocks for subjects and time slots for after school, so kids can see what days are busy and when they have time to do homework to meet their deadlines. 

--Thinking about what kids at other schools are doing has always felt like the road to hell to me. That's why college admissions officers get the profile of applicant's schools--they want to know what the student has done in the context of the classes and extracurriculars available to them. Any college I'd want to send my child to is trying to build a diverse class in every way, in terms of race, income, rural/urban, privileged/less privileged in all kinds of ways, including the offerings of their high schools.  

--Possibility for later--with my 17yo I opened a board in Trello (free project management tool online) for her college search. We made 3 lists--To Do, Doing, and Done. The To-Do list is a great place to capture future tasks and get them off your mind, Doing helps prioritize what to focus on now, and seeing the Done column grow feels great. I did not have skills in project management in early adulthood, and I'm hoping to save my girls some of the grief that caused me. Dd picked an image of backpackers for the background and liked clicking tasks from Doing to Done.

--I totally agree with previous posters that middle and high school age kids need support and scaffolding in learning to manage their workloads and lives. It's a dance, figuring out whether more support or more independence, with the opportunity to learn from failure, is what's needed at any given time. When in doubt I err on the side of scaffolding while talking through what they feel works and doesn't work for them. 

Amy

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

To address the immediate issue, I'd probably start with these things:

--If it's at all possible, have him drop down to a regular class (not Honors) in at least one of his courses. Perhaps his two Honors classes may be candidates for dropping a level--I'd deeply explore that option. With him, with his counselors, as an independent study, whatever. Jumping through hoops to do so. My daughter's counselor said dropping a level in math or foreign language might get negative attention from college admissions, but with other classes I think you have more wiggle room. 

--If finances allow, try hiring an EF coach. If you like I could ask my friend who works with her son. I know it's someone in NY and they work remotely. Some of the resistance you're seeing to your suggestions might simply dissolve if he's working with someone else. 

--Help him manage his time in the evenings in whatever ways you can. One thing that helps here is setting dinnertime as early as possible (even asking my high schooler to come home a little earlier than she would otherwise) so there's more time in the evenings to fit in both study and down time.

--Suggest pomodoros--setting a timer to work for 25 minutes, then taking a break--and if it's an especially hard evening, offer a cool snack/bribe for the break time. (The other night, when my 13 yo was overwhelmed, I scrapped my dinner plan and instead made steak, which she loves, while she started a pomodoro. By the time dinner was on the table, she'd finished two assignments in 25 min, taken a break, and was relieved and happy with her progress.)  In an ideal world, we'd all be intrinsically motivated all the time, but the reality is we have to do things we don't want to do, and sometimes work feels overwhelming to adults too. The occasional steak or peanut M&Ms or whatever can be a smart way to get done what you need to do with less angst. 

--Look at phone/screeen use. When dd17 got Instagram, her stress level went way up, and it wasn't social stress. My theory is that her "down time" on Instagram no longer actually allowed her brain to relax and unwind. It's fun but not relaxing, if that makes sense. I'm trying to create a routine where we all charge our phones for a couple hours in the evening. It kind of works, but since so many assignments involve screens sometimes my girls have to use their phones during that time.

--For a planner, I really like the Order Out of Chaos student planner, designed by a mom for her son with ADD. The visual organization is great. I know you have some barriers to getting him to use a planner, but if paper seems like the thing, this one is great. It has blocks for subjects and time slots for after school, so kids can see what days are busy and when they have time to do homework to meet their deadlines. 

--Thinking about what kids at other schools are doing has always felt like the road to hell to me. That's why college admissions officers get the profile of applicant's schools--they want to know what the student has done in the context of the classes and extracurriculars available to them. Any college I'd want to send my child to is trying to build a diverse class in every way, in terms of race, income, rural/urban, privileged/less privileged in all kinds of ways, including the offerings of their high schools.  

--Possibility for later--with my 17yo I opened a board in Trello (free project management tool online) for her college search. We made 3 lists--To Do, Doing, and Done. The To-Do list is a great place to capture future tasks and get them off your mind, Doing helps prioritize what to focus on now, and seeing the Done column grow feels great. I did not have skills in project management in early adulthood, and I'm hoping to save my girls some of the grief that caused me. Dd picked an image of backpackers for the background and liked clicking tasks from Doing to Done.

--I totally agree with previous posters that middle and high school age kids need support and scaffolding in learning to manage their workloads and lives. It's a dance, figuring out whether more support or more independence, with the opportunity to learn from failure, is what's needed at any given time. When in doubt I err on the side of scaffolding while talking through what they feel works and doesn't work for them. 

Amy

This all so helpful. Thank you.

Agree on the screen use. We try to limit opportunities, but it’s so hard to constantly monitor to make sure videos aren’t taking precedence to studying. Ugh. It’s been an issue for us for sure. It’s hard to get him to see that sometimes screens aren't really HELPFUL downtime.

I'll check out the book rec and the online planning tool. Online will appeal more to him, if anything will.

We do SO much scaffolding. I’m surprised at how much, honestly, but it’s clearly still needed here.

[Pen]

5 hours ago, MEmama said:

 

Nutrition and health are excellent. He gets lots of regular sleep (usually 9:30-6, earlier to bed recently) and of course, lots of exercise. No big changes in his life.

 That’s good!

5 hours ago, MEmama said:

He went through a similar period last year, and IIRC the year before. This is the worst, though.

 

?  At same time of year?  

Or?   Maybe he would have insight?

5 hours ago, MEmama said:

I KNOW that better planning and organization would be beneficial. I just need to learn about more tools to offer up. Letting him fail as others have done for their kids will NOT be beneficial to him. No judgement. We all know our own kids.

 

Personally, I would go back to the idea of dropping JAVA that he had and if it’s still possible, allow him to do that.  There are plenty of excellent programs besides MIT—and even if he all but kills himself in high school trying to be the perfect MIT candidate there’s no certainty he would get in.  Schools like that always have to turn away many students with stellar transcripts. 

The schedule you describe is extremely heavy.  

And though he may in theory be able to handle it, in practice, he’s struggling.

It is possible that generally positive peer influence towards healthy living, sports, academics has gone overboard on too much academic intensity which can be a competition thing that no one feels able to stop even if it’s too much — similar to a different type of kids’ peer competition group doing too much with daredevil driving, or bridge bungee jumping...

He may be the only one of group not managing well or possibly others are also privately feeling in over their heads and would be grateful for someone to stop before next year they feel they all have to take 6 AP or DE classes.  In any case he is clearly in a “too much” state.

I’d then try to use the bit of space from no JAVA to have him work with an EF coach and use a planner or some system that appeals to him.  It is very personal for a lot of people, exactly what system will work for them.  And can even change from time to time.  

 

And he may well do better with an EF coach rather than parents.  

 

[Arcadia]

12 minutes ago, MEmama said:

We do SO much scaffolding. I’m surprised at how much, honestly, but it’s clearly still needed here.

 

For his six subjects, do you have an idea how much after school time he spends on each?

Dereksurfs had a long thread years ago about his son lacking downtime and part of the solution was being more efficient with time spent on task. 

 

[catz]

There are many many more MIT qualified candidates than can attend MIT.  There are qualified candidates that can't afford MIT and don't apply.  My husband works for a software company based in Boston works with and manages MIT grads every day.  He has a degree from a flagship engineering program.  We have another friend that attended a midwestern flagship that was recruited to a huge software company on the west coast and works with a bunch of Caltech grads.  I don't doubt going to MIT for undergrad would be interesting, but there are many interesting schools that allow for a similar career and life trajectory.  And at the end of the day, the name of your college is much less important than the college marketing best would like you to think.  I would be de-emphasizing school name and focusing on finding fit and affordability.  

[MEmama]

8 minutes ago, Pen said:

 That’s good!

 

?  At same time of year?  

Or?   Maybe he would have insight?

 

Personally, I would go back to the idea of dropping JAVA that he had and if it’s still possible, allow him to do that.  There are plenty of excellent programs besides MIT—and even if he all but kills himself in high school trying to be the perfect MIT candidate there’s no certainty he would get in.  Schools like that always have to turn away many students with stellar transcripts. 

The schedule you describe is extremely heavy.  

And though he may in theory be able to handle it, in practice, he’s struggling.

It is possible that generally positive peer influence towards healthy living, sports, academics has gone overboard on too much academic intensity which can be a competition thing that no one feels able to stop even if it’s too much — similar to a different type of kids’ peer competition group doing too much with daredevil driving, or bridge bungee jumping...

He may be the only one of group not managing well or possibly others are also privately feeling in over their heads and would be grateful for someone to stop before next year they feel they all have to take 6 AP or DE classes.  In any case he is clearly in a “too much” state.

I’d then try to use the bit of space from no JAVA to have him work with an EF coach and use a planner or some system that appeals to him.  It is very personal for a lot of people, exactly what system will work for them.  And can even change from time to time.  

 

And he may well do better with an EF coach rather than parents.  

 

So today I took a day off work and kept him home for a mental health day. 👍

We talked a bit about changing things up a bit next semester. I asked him to think about the classes that cause him the most stress or take up a disproportionate amount of time and mental energy. I told him there WILL be changes, he’s NOT going through this again next semester. We will talk about it more in-depth this weekend but I wanted to get the ball rolling. He knows I am always in his corner and always advocate for his well being. I think he was relieved to hear that I am insisting on him making a change. He knows it’s serious.

He protested when I inquired about the possibility of dropping a level in chemistry, insisting he NEEDS it for college. Initially he was shocked when I said nope, you absolutely do not. No engineering or computer science intention REQUIRES honors chem. We talked it through, he thought about it a moment and he saw the light. Yay. So we have a few possibilities next semester to create space.

We also talked about how perhaps we underestimated the overall load; that it’s one thing to have the ABILITY to excel in any of the courses, but that too many are causing mental overload. He definitely sees it. 
 

I didn’t dare bring up a planner; today he just needs rest and space (and yeah, extra study time, which ultimately creates rest and space). But as we head into the next semester, I will again, and I resolve to be more firm—even if I’m actually the one keeping track. 

It’s been a positive day. 👍
 

 

[Pen]

Btw when cellular came to our rural area I got smartphone later than most on WTM, probably.  I tried a bunch of calendar and productivity apps.  There are many, and what may be perfect for one person and situation won’t be for someone else.

For me (and I do have my own EF struggles) the winner is called  Summit - which is a Calendar/ list together.  I find it relaxing to look at and easy to use. (  It also syncs to other calendars, like Google) but I don’t much use the others.  I used the free version for awhile, then upgraded to paid version.   I(Paid version allows more features like sub tasks iirc) 

I’m not a student, but I think it would work as a student.  I think I suggested it to @WendyAndMilo and maybe she tried it and could comment also?   

I also use loose pages from the Rodriguez ADHD planner system I linked as needed.  

ETA: The Rodriguez system may have been developed with students in mind, but works fine for me as adult.    He’s an EF coach. And has ADHD himself. 

I used to use Franklin Covey paper planners. 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Pen

[MEmama]

15 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

For his six subjects, do you have an idea how much after school time he spends on each?

Dereksurfs had a long thread years ago about his son lacking downtime and part of the solution was being more efficient with time spent on task. 

 

Way too much time. That’s more of a problem than his coursework. If he were more efficient, I think he would be fine.

One of my goals is to get him to track how much time he thinks homework for each class will take vs how long it actually takes. I don’t know where his time goes, but it definitely isn’t used effectively. It’s part of why I suspect some EF issues are at play. 
 

He has a tendency to bounce from one subject to another, or leave a task just before it’s complete instead of finishing and checking off the mental box before moving on. 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, MEmama said:

So today I took a day off work and kept him home for a mental health day. 👍

We talked a bit about changing things up a bit next semester. I asked him to think about the classes that cause him the most stress or take up a disproportionate amount of time and mental energy. I told him there WILL be changes, he’s NOT going through this again next semester. We will talk about it more in-depth this weekend but I wanted to get the ball rolling. He knows I am always in his corner and always advocate for his well being. I think he was relieved to hear that I am insisting on him making a change. He knows it’s serious.

He protested when I inquired about the possibility of dropping a level in chemistry, insisting he NEEDS it for college. Initially he was shocked when I said nope, you absolutely do not. No engineering or computer science intention REQUIRES honors chem. We talked it through, he thought about it a moment and he saw the light. Yay. So we have a few possibilities next semester to create space.

We also talked about how perhaps we underestimated the overall load; that it’s one thing to have the ABILITY to excel in any of the courses, but that too many are causing mental overload. He definitely sees it. 
 

I didn’t dare bring up a planner; today he just needs rest and space (and yeah, extra study time, which ultimately creates rest and space). But as we head into the next semester, I will again, and I resolve to be more firm—even if I’m actually the one keeping track. 

It’s been a positive day. 👍
 

 

 

 

Super!!!!  Yay!

👍👍👍

[Pen]

I edited my longer post on planners above as yours was probably coming in—with added info on Rodriguez 

[MEmama]

20 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

There are many many more MIT qualified candidates than can attend MIT.  There are qualified candidates that can't afford MIT and don't apply.  My husband works for a software company based in Boston works with and manages MIT grads every day.  He has a degree from a flagship engineering program.  We have another friend that attended a midwestern flagship that was recruited to a huge software company on the west coast and works with a bunch of Caltech grads.  I don't doubt going to MIT for undergrad would be interesting, but there are many interesting schools that allow for a similar career and life trajectory.  And at the end of the day, the name of your college is much less important than the college marketing best would like you to think.  I would be de-emphasizing school name and focusing on finding fit and affordability.  

Oh he knows now he isn't going there. 🙂

I think I only mentioned it because there can be assumptions that kids get all the pressure from their parents, when very often goals comes completely from within. Sometimes the role of parents is simply to try to keep up. Lol. 

 

[Pen]

PS part of what I like about the systems that I like is having them be okay for imperfect use.  Like they help some even if only partially utilized. So they don’t become their own feeling of burden. Similarly, I personally liked a calming color.  One that had good functionality, but much red color felt accusatory and nerve jangling because of the red.  

So, again, I think if you do bring up planner (maybe better brought up by an EF coach?) it’s important for your son to have part in choosing what he thinks he might be able to handle.  Unless you are the one who will handle it in a Pepper Potts way.  

 

My ds, same grade, close age, will not use a planner, btw.  He did try the Order Out of Chaos type, but hated it (again, planners are very personal). And I’m not fighting him on planner use.    I decided that a peaceful relationship between us was more important long term.  🙏

 

We do have a copy of the Dave Ellis book I linked.  And some concepts from it have helped. Some.  

[SanDiegoMom]

3 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Oh he knows now he isn't going there. 🙂

I think I only mentioned it because there can be assumptions that kids get all the pressure from their parents, when very often goals comes completely from within. Sometimes the role of parents is simply to try to keep up. Lol. 

 

The posts on College Confidential are crazy.  And there are kids doing all that.  But I am going to make a big leap and think that because so much is now parent and peer pressure driven rather than internally driven, a lot of these kids are ending up a wreck during college.  Which is a lot harder when they are away from home and the university mental health systems are swamped.  (6 weeks to get an initial appointment at my dd's school).  

I am glad you are tackling this now.  My daughter did buy into the crazy train gotta do everything right -- she pulled it off in high school but when she got to college things slowly got worse and worse. The pressure is immense, especially in environments where you are surrounded by people putting themselves under the same pressure.  Right now her roommate still hasn't come back for the second quarter (she took off due to mental exhaustion) and before she left she had helped with others standing suicide watch over a different roommate until he could get checked into a residential facility.  My daughter developed panic attacks (they started in high school once or twice and picked up in college with the added stress).  There's just so much pressure.  There are students that do well with it all and stay on top of everything, but then there are the kids that are maybe late diagnosed ADHD (mine) and trying to do everything and just terrified when they mess up.  

[Pen]

 

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

My ds, same grade, close age, will not use a planner, btw.  He did try the Order Out of Chaos type, but hated it (again, planners are very personal).

 

Its schedule didn’t fit his school’s schedule was one problem, but worse was it was yet another physical object to keep track of, another thing to need to try to do, to carry from class to class, and keep neat and organized itself...  Another different planner might have solved problem of schedule not being a fit, but pretty much any system had problem of  being “one more thing”. 

I think I ended up deciding I have a very intelligent, but EF challenged and also somewhat  “Type B” and marches to his own drummer personality kid in a “Type A” world.  He may end up an entrepreneur or some such, where March to own drummer becomes positive.  In an older time maybe he would have been the village saddle maker or something like that, working and socializing in a low key way.  But he’s not a color inside the lines and go along with the program type kid.  Which is typical of EF issue Adhd kids— and has benefits, but also can make basic planner use with requirements of listing things here or there hard...especially if they aren’t personally motivated to try

 

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

The posts on College Confidential are crazy.  And there are kids doing all that.  But I am going to make a big leap and think that because so much is now parent and peer pressure driven rather than internally driven, a lot of these kids are ending up a wreck during college.  Which is a lot harder when they are away from home and the university mental health systems are swamped.  (6 weeks to get an initial appointment at my dd's school).  

I am glad you are tackling this now.  My daughter did buy into the crazy train gotta do everything right -- she pulled it off in high school but when she got to college things slowly got worse and worse. The pressure is immense, especially in environments where you are surrounded by people putting themselves under the same pressure.  Right now her roommate still hasn't come back for the second quarter (she took off due to mental exhaustion) and before she left she had helped with others standing suicide watch over a different roommate until he could get checked into a residential facility.  My daughter developed panic attacks (they started in high school once or twice and picked up in college with the added stress).  There's just so much pressure.  There are students that do well with it all and stay on top of everything, but then there are the kids that are maybe late diagnosed ADHD (mine) and trying to do everything and just terrified when they mess up.  

 

Just to be clear, I am “liking” heart icon your post.  Not liking the pressure, kids feeling suicidal etc. your dd panic attacks.  I almost put a sad icon for that. 

[Arcadia]

38 minutes ago, MEmama said:

He has a tendency to bounce from one subject to another, or leave a task just before it’s complete instead of finishing and checking off the mental box before moving on. 

I do that when the task is not engaging and DS15 used to do that for similar reasons. In our case there is a trend of leaving “boring”  tasks incomplete to finish at the eleventh hour. DS15 doesn’t do that as much now.
 

For DS14, he used to do that because he was afraid of forgetting a task. So he was jumping from task to task to try to complete all tasks. I had to tell him many times that you sink one ship and float the rest, not sink all ships. He gets it now so he finish all the urgent and high weightage tasks first instead of worrying about completing every task.

[MEmama]

51 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

The posts on College Confidential are crazy.  And there are kids doing all that.  But I am going to make a big leap and think that because so much is now parent and peer pressure driven rather than internally driven, a lot of these kids are ending up a wreck during college.  Which is a lot harder when they are away from home and the university mental health systems are swamped.  (6 weeks to get an initial appointment at my dd's school).  

I am glad you are tackling this now.  My daughter did buy into the crazy train gotta do everything right -- she pulled it off in high school but when she got to college things slowly got worse and worse. The pressure is immense, especially in environments where you are surrounded by people putting themselves under the same pressure.  Right now her roommate still hasn't come back for the second quarter (she took off due to mental exhaustion) and before she left she had helped with others standing suicide watch over a different roommate until he could get checked into a residential facility.  My daughter developed panic attacks (they started in high school once or twice and picked up in college with the added stress).  There's just so much pressure.  There are students that do well with it all and stay on top of everything, but then there are the kids that are maybe late diagnosed ADHD (mine) and trying to do everything and just terrified when they mess up.  

Yeah, College Confidential has us all freaking out, honestly. For the most part I don’t believe college admissions can be that crazy, but then we end up there and I get really panicked. It makes no sense.

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. I totally understand now why so many college kids end up struggling with mental health issues. 😞

[SanDiegoMom]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

Yeah, College Confidential has us all freaking out, honestly. For the most part I don’t believe college admissions can be that crazy, but then we end up there and I get really panicked. It makes no sense.

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter. I totally understand now why so many college kids end up struggling with mental health issues. 😞

And it helps for them to have a strong safety net -- my dd calls me every day, I flew out for a few days to be with her when things were bad, I help her as much as I can from afar.  A lot of the students around her just don't have close relationships with their parents and so they don't know HOW to get help, or what to do if the free counseling is booked and they need to use their insurance to go out in town.  

Mine is doing better now, thankfully -- good adhd meds that as a side benefit help anxiety, a psychiatrist and psychologist with low copays, and a much better understanding of how to manage stress.  Oh, and she's finally stopped worrying about getting into Harvard or Yale Law.  See how it never ends? She's ok now with having less than a 4.0 GPA.  

We are taking notes and planning on going a different route for the next kids, that's for sure!

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, MEmama said:

. I totally understand now why so many college kids end up struggling with mental health issues. 😞

My husband and I went to “elite” (pressure cooker) middle schools in a pressure cooker Asian country. Youth suicide over grades is a pressing issue there; the elephant in the room. My ex-classmate in the gifted program I was in had suicidal thoughts. The system there was a push factor for us to relocate to US. There are so many routes to getting a degree here compared to where we were from. 

[moonflower]

It's possible that he's using his time about as wisely/efficiently as the course projects the average kid to do, and the courseload is just too much for him on the whole.

I had (have) very poor EF and was a bright student; I took the IB Diploma in high school which is basically all AP courses.  I didn't do a sport; I was seriousish about music.  Every IB course, and they tell you this in 9th grade before you ever sign up, said that the average student would spend an hour a day on homework (for just that class).  When you take 6 IB classes plus music practice, that makes technically 7 hours a day of homework, which is obviously not possible.  Out of 650 people in our grade, about 10 took the Diploma (the full slate) and of those, maybe 4 or 5 of us got straight As.  The vast majority of people taking IB classes were taking 1 or 2, maybe 3, in their areas of strength/interest.  Many of those kids could probably have taken a different 2 or 3 IBs and also done well in them, but they *were* having to spend the hour a day per class on homework, so they just couldn't manage 6 high level classes at a time. 

None of us, for the record, got into or went to elite universities for undergrad, except maybe the valedictorian who went to Wellesly and dropped out after a semester.  Many of us (not me) did go to an Ivy or similar for grad school.

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

Its schedule didn’t fit his school’s schedule was one problem, but worse was it was yet another physical object to keep track of, another thing to need to try to do, to carry from class to class, and keep neat and organized itself...  Another different planner might have solved problem of schedule not being a fit, but pretty much any system had problem of  being “one more thing”. 

I think I ended up deciding I have a very intelligent, but EF challenged and also somewhat  “Type B” and marches to his own drummer personality kid in a “Type A” world.  He may end up an entrepreneur or some such, where March to own drummer becomes positive.  In an older time maybe he would have been the village saddle maker or something like that, working and socializing in a low key way.  But he’s not a color inside the lines and go along with the program type kid.  Which is typical of EF issue Adhd kids— and has benefits, but also can make basic planner use with requirements of listing things here or there hard...especially if they aren’t personally motivated to try

 

Yup. I tried paper planners but never had them when I needed them!

[Caraway]

We have a very similar situation going on over here including a 5 hr a day sports commitment. 
 

I thought my student was wasting time or not managing his time effectively. Then I sat down with an excel spreadsheet. I put in all his classes, as well as a reasonable sleep schedule. I put in all the sports practices and travel times. Then I asked how long homework for each class typically takes and when it is done. The result was eye opening - there is fundamentally not enough time for the work load. A well organized, highly motivated, brilliant adult couldn’t get it done. Never mind a hormonal, growing teen. 
 

I would ask him, for each of his classes, “if I FORCED you to drop this, would you feel relief?”  This is how I trick myself to get beyond “but I want to...”

Also, his counselor letter should include info about how his course load compares to what is AVAILABLE. For example here the boys’ private school will let them take unlimited APs, while the girls’ school will only let them take three. Everyone knows schools differ and it is unfair to compare “unlimited” to “3”. 
 

Get him off of Reddit. Those forums make MY anxiety go through the roof. Also, they are TEENS on an ANONYMOUS Internet forum. Half of them are lying. 
 

As a kid who burned out before college I say pull him back. Drop something. Delay something. Drop two things. Colleges are also looking for kids who have coping strategies. Find those for him - yoga, mediation, hot showers, foam rolling, cryotherapy, infared saunas, etc. 

It’s difficult to know how hard to play the game, but I think right now he’s over his limit. ❤️

Edited January 10, 2020 by Caraway

[moonflower]

I agree that sports, while good for some people's overall health and wellbeing, really eat into available time.  It was not an accident that of the top 10 people in our graduating class, zero did a sport after freshman/sophomore year.  The top 3-4 didn't even play an instrument.  

[PeterPan]

13 hours ago, MEmama said:

He went through a similar period last year, and IIRC the year before. This is the worst, though.

If it happens at this time of year each year, maybe get his vitamin D checked. 

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, moonflower said:

I agree that sports, while good for some people's overall health and wellbeing, really eat into available time.  It was not an accident that of the top 10 people in our graduating class, zero did a sport after freshman/sophomore year.  The top 3-4 didn't even play an instrument.  

Wow. In his class nearly the entire top 25 (that I can think of) play a competitive sport and most are involved in music in addition. As a minimum. 

[MEmama]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

If it happens at this time of year each year, maybe get his vitamin D checked. 

Interesting thought. I’ll do that next time he has an appointment.

He's started taking iron (rec for running) and I’ve started him on a multivitamin. May as well add vitamin d to the cocktail. It sure can’t hurt.

 

[MEmama]

9 hours ago, Caraway said:

We have a very similar situation going on over here including a 5 hr a day sports commitment. 
 

I thought my student was wasting time or not managing his time effectively. Then I sat down with an excel spreadsheet. I put in all his classes, as well as a reasonable sleep schedule. I put in all the sports practices and travel times. Then I asked how long homework for each class typically takes and when it is done. The result was eye opening - there is fundamentally not enough time for the work load. A well organized, highly motivated, brilliant adult couldn’t get it done. Never mind a hormonal, growing teen. 
 

I would ask him, for each of his classes, “if I FORCED you to drop this, would you feel relief?”  This is how I trick myself to get beyond “but I want to...”

Also, his counselor letter should include info about how his course load compares to what is AVAILABLE. For example here the boys’ private school will let them take unlimited APs, while the girls’ school will only let them take three. Everyone knows schools differ and it is unfair to compare “unlimited” to “3”. 
 

Get him off of Reddit. Those forums make MY anxiety go through the roof. Also, they are TEENS on an ANONYMOUS Internet forum. Half of them are lying. 
 

As a kid who burned out before college I say pull him back. Drop something. Delay something. Drop two things. Colleges are also looking for kids who have coping strategies. Find those for him - yoga, mediation, hot showers, foam rolling, cryotherapy, infared saunas, etc. 

It’s difficult to know how hard to play the game, but I think right now he’s over his limit. ❤️

Sort of. The threads he’s reading are school specific. Not just general teens making stuff up.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

May as well add vitamin d to the cocktail. It sure can’t hurt.

Well it can if he has a methylation defect, but that's a less common situation. 

If you try him on D, add K2 so it will be absorbed well. Your gut is supposed to produce K2, and some people's do better than others. 

The bloodwork is pretty cheap btw, and your ped would probably run it just with a phone call. Ours did.

Edited January 10, 2020 by PeterPan

[BarbecueMom]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Wow. In his class nearly the entire top 25 (that I can think of) play a competitive sport and most are involved in music in addition. As a minimum. 

It might have to do with the effect of honors classes on weighted GPA, and schedule conflicts between arts courses and honors classes that are only offered in one section at the same time at some schools.  I had to drop from honors to regular English junior year because it was only offered at the same time as our highest concert band.  I ended up with a mentally unwell new English teacher that year who did absolutely nothing except have us write a Halloween poem and provide talk therapy.  Good for the GPA, not good for college preparation though!

Also, my school district had issues with the ridiculous, stereotypical “jocks vs. nerds” type thing, so many in sports were intentionally staying away from honors and AP courses from middle school on because it “wasn’t cool”.  Kids with academic interests had bully targets on their backs, and the teachers were often frustrated by inquisitive students, too (not a lot of energy left over for questions after dealing with behavior issues).  This was a lower-middle class, Midwest, suburban-ish school where maybe 1-2 kids a year went to an elite local university, and I’m not certain our guidance counselors could name all the Ivies.

I don’t care for pressure cooker educational environments, but I seriously hope things have improved a bit since then.

[Pen]

My son’s school tends to have overlap of top students and certain sports as well.

But not with that many hard / time consuming classes.

I suggested that you write out what it would realistically take for your son to do what his schedule demands on a 15 or 30 minutes marked grid plan and see if it’s feasible.

much more generally than that it would not be possible at my son’s school and still to get enough sleep etc

At my son’s school XC practice ends ~4:30 pm > arrive home and shower/snack ~ 5:00 pm

+ 1 hour minimum (homework, study, reading) per demanding class, maybe more for some

+ 1 hour for dinner and downtime combined

(eta: took 6 hours for 6 core classes, plus hour for eating and downtime  7 hours total and added that to 5pm ready to study after sports as would be case at our school.  Figuring anything beyond an hour per class could be shifted to weekend catching up time)

= 12 pm   

= Not realistically feasible along with any sort of reasonable healthy balanced life  IMO

 

And that didn’t even include days when there’s an away XC meet and kids return home at 10 or 11 pm.  Well, we are in a rural small school league and away games can be very far away.  Maybe for bigger urban or at least suburban schools that long travel time would not be the case.   ETA: Or even maybe smaller state size would more limit sports meet travel. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

Since your son has a study hall, subtract ~1 hour from above, assuming he can do an hour of study in study hall.  

That’d be ~11pm end.  Still too late IMO

changing one class to a non-homework generating class would bring it to ~10 pm. Better, IMO. 

changing two classes to non-homework generating would bring it to ~ 9pm. Excellent IMO.  

 

Merely shifting from honors to non honors may not help the overload problem if they still generate ~ an hour of work.  For example a regular English class may give the same quantity reading to do. Depends on school and teachers. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Merely shifting from honors to non honors may not help the overload problem if they still generate ~ an hour of work.  For example a regular English class may give the same quantity reading to do. Depends on school and teachers. 

DS14’s 9th grade English honors class has negligible extra readings. His high school chemistry honors class which he took in summer 2018 had the same quantity of workload as the non honors class, just different textbook. So dropping from honors to non honors may not save time but would reduce the weighted GPA. 

Dropping AP Computer Science A but replace with a programming class in summer at community college might be more time saving. Many community college programming classes are online so it’s flexible in terms of no fixed class time, also dual enrollment classes are weighted higher (similar to AP classes) in calculating weighted GPA. That would demonstrate computer science interest.   Also programming assignments can be a time sucker because kids can spend more time going for a better solution when that time could be used for other subjects. When my kids took AP Computer Science A in middle school, they spent time after submitting their homework by improving the code, time they could have spent on improving their German vocabulary  😛  DS15 is taking programming classes at community college, he doesn’t have time to improve codes as he needs that time for other subjects and also get some downtime. He got an A last quarter and I don’t care that he didn’t spend more time and maybe get an A+, he needs his rest.

[MEmama]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

Merely shifting from honors to non honors may not help the overload problem if they still generate ~ an hour of work.  For example a regular English class may give the same quantity reading to do. Depends on school and teachers. 

Good point. The same can be true of AP to Honors classes too. Some APS like English have less work but spend more time studying for the test. 
I think he needs to decide which classes are the most time consuming and/ or biggest mental loads. The level doesn’t matter so much as decreasing the overall load. Then we can hopefully proceed from there.

[GoodGrief]

8 hours ago, MEmama said:

Wow. In his class nearly the entire top 25 (that I can think of) play a competitive sport and most are involved in music in addition. As a minimum. 

 Yes, that is the case more often than not. Runners as a group tend to be quite high achieving.

Rabbit trail, tying into the "hunter-gatherer" thread, I do think that sports can play a role in modern society in controlling anxiety. We aren't focused on basic survival for the most part, and our bodies haven't quite figured that out yet, from an evolutionary perspective. It's also my unpopular opinion that the push to end tobacco use took away one means that many controlled anxiety and depression in the past. Not a bad thing to stop smoking (and I don't smoke, to be clear), but it does seem to me that we took away that coping mechanism without offering a great alternative. I think many cope by maintaining an extreme level of "busy".

I agree with the thought that dropping from "honors" to a regular class may not solve this problem or even necessarily decrease the workload. It also may take him away from people he enjoys at school. I really don't think you should limit his sports involvement, assuming it is a passion of his.

College Confidential is anxiety-provoking, but it's not my experience that there is incorrect information there. You just have to keep in mind that it's a place where many are focused on admission to highly competitive schools. Not everyone needs to go to that sort of school, but if it's the goal, it's helpful to have a realistic idea of what is involved there. I'm not clear in reading this thread what he is hoping for as far as college, past the idea that he would like to run in college.

In the end, I think traditional high school is a tough place as far as schedule for those kids that want to "do it all". Just not a lot of flexibility. Is there a way he could do some courses at home while maintaining a relationship with the school for extracurriculars and perhaps some other courses? That was a great option for my second daughter. She did orchestra at the school and sports, but her other courses were homeschooled (and planned for maximum flexibility, even when the rigor was high.)

 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

I think he needs to decide which classes are the most time consuming and/ or biggest mental loads. The level doesn’t matter so much as decreasing the overall load. Then we can hopefully proceed from there.

Does he has perfectionism issues when it comes to homework? That is a time suck for my DS15. For example, he would use his downtime to perfect the photos for his photography homework when it’s not going to give him more marks.

DS15 does his readings while eating dinner. He sleeps on car rides since he tends to get car sick if he reads. DS14 reads his readings on car rides.  

[BlsdMama]

On 1/8/2020 at 7:16 AM, MEmama said:

DS (almost 17) is a junior in public high school. 

That said, he’s floundering.

His work load is heavy. He is taking 4 AP classes this year and all his courses are rigorous. They demand planning and stellar time management, both of which he struggles mightily with. 

As it stands, he’s barely keeping his head above water, struggling with anxiety and for certain feels like he’s drowning. His schoolwork is not too difficult; he just needs to figure out how to create space for himself to work effectively. 
😞
 

I've kept the parts above to respond.  He's almost 17 and taking 4 AP classes plus other rigorous courses.  I assume this is his first year with this heavy of a load.  I'm not saying it's *too* heavy, I'm agreeing with you that it is heavy.

So, as a kid I was considered exceptionally bright but poor organization.  These days, they've have called executive functioning issues.  Any ADHD there? (Not that it matters, but it's a part of the equation.)

I have pretty strong EF abilities now.  But, it really happened incrementally - both through a lot of my husband helping me to utilize tools (checklists, reminders, calendars, notes, etc.) and through experience - including failure. Now, OBVIOUSLY, you don't want him to fail just to give him that valuable experience!  But, here is what I would say.  A good deal of what you're wanting is something acquired over time and repetition.  It's not a one and done deal.  And for those who struggle with things like time management, organization, clearly understanding what to do and when to have adequate time, they really need someone to come alongside (gently) with reminders and accountability.

I can totally understand not wanting to take that on because it feels more like enabling than equipping.  But the thing is this: He's learning new material in every class AND NOW we want him to not just acquire all these other habits, but them into consistent practice.  These are the "one more things" that someone just doesn't have the mental space for.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain. 
On any given day, I can accomplish an incredible amount of stuff.  I've learned to do laundry for 13, cook for 13, ensure a clean house for 13, take kids to classes (28 minutes away) and still plan dinner, return calls, balance the budget, pay bills, hit doctor/dentist/eye appointments, take a couple college classes, etc.  But, when things get heavy?  I "drop" things.  I forget about that coffee date, I make the dentist appointment but forget I needed to pick up sauce for supper.  The house is less tidy or the laundry gets behind.  It's because the "always on" becomes mentally exhausting and you mostly focus on the things to which you are accountable.  So, in this example, I might not catch up on the laundry, but I can clean the black skirt that kiddo #6 needed for the choir concert.  The floor is sticky, but I knew I had to make the assignment deadline for class.  You see?  We look like we're succeeding to some people because we're hitting the highlights, but we're not.  We're floundering and people aren't seeing it...... yet.  Pretty soon it's a missed assignment that he forgot to do.  Then he fell asleep while reading X.  

You can't ask him to learn and institute new habits on his own.  You just can't.  You can offer to help him organize his work area every weekend!  You can sit down at the table at 4, look through his assignments, help him write them down and plan out his evening and week.  You could help him make checklists.  This isn't enabling.  This is hands on teaching of EF skills.  And he might do GREAT on it for the next three weeks and you think he's ready to go it alone, but he's not yet.  Accountability helps these kids - 100!  

It's probably the only way to get through this year without doing some grade damage.  I'd hold that hand.

It seems to me most of us hit this junior year, lol!  I have with my two most active kids!  And both said senior year felt lighter.  Was it actually?  Not really, but they grasped time management better by inches.  My fourth child is a junior this year and I suggested we ease into heavier classes.  She's young, only turned 16 this year, but I didn't want her to experience this overwhelming year the last two got smacked with.  She has great EF skills but higher anxiety.   

[MEmama]

9 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I've kept the parts above to respond.  He's almost 17 and taking 4 AP classes plus other rigorous courses.  I assume this is his first year with this heavy of a load.  I'm not saying it's *too* heavy, I'm agreeing with you that it is heavy.

So, as a kid I was considered exceptionally bright but poor organization.  These days, they've have called executive functioning issues.  Any ADHD there? (Not that it matters, but it's a part of the equation.)

I have pretty strong EF abilities now.  But, it really happened incrementally - both through a lot of my husband helping me to utilize tools (checklists, reminders, calendars, notes, etc.) and through experience - including failure. Now, OBVIOUSLY, you don't want him to fail just to give him that valuable experience!  But, here is what I would say.  A good deal of what you're wanting is something acquired over time and repetition.  It's not a one and done deal.  And for those who struggle with things like time management, organization, clearly understanding what to do and when to have adequate time, they really need someone to come alongside (gently) with reminders and accountability.

I can totally understand not wanting to take that on because it feels more like enabling than equipping.  But the thing is this: He's learning new material in every class AND NOW we want him to not just acquire all these other habits, but them into consistent practice.  These are the "one more things" that someone just doesn't have the mental space for.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain. 
On any given day, I can accomplish an incredible amount of stuff.  I've learned to do laundry for 13, cook for 13, ensure a clean house for 13, take kids to classes (28 minutes away) and still plan dinner, return calls, balance the budget, pay bills, hit doctor/dentist/eye appointments, take a couple college classes, etc.  But, when things get heavy?  I "drop" things.  I forget about that coffee date, I make the dentist appointment but forget I needed to pick up sauce for supper.  The house is less tidy or the laundry gets behind.  It's because the "always on" becomes mentally exhausting and you mostly focus on the things to which you are accountable.  So, in this example, I might not catch up on the laundry, but I can clean the black skirt that kiddo #6 needed for the choir concert.  The floor is sticky, but I knew I had to make the assignment deadline for class.  You see?  We look like we're succeeding to some people because we're hitting the highlights, but we're not.  We're floundering and people aren't seeing it...... yet.  Pretty soon it's a missed assignment that he forgot to do.  Then he fell asleep while reading X.  

You can't ask him to learn and institute new habits on his own.  You just can't.  You can offer to help him organize his work area every weekend!  You can sit down at the table at 4, look through his assignments, help him write them down and plan out his evening and week.  You could help him make checklists.  This isn't enabling.  This is hands on teaching of EF skills.  And he might do GREAT on it for the next three weeks and you think he's ready to go it alone, but he's not yet.  Accountability helps these kids - 100!  

It's probably the only way to get through this year without doing some grade damage.  I'd hold that hand.

It seems to me most of us hit this junior year, lol!  I have with my two most active kids!  And both said senior year felt lighter.  Was it actually?  Not really, but they grasped time management better by inches.  My fourth child is a junior this year and I suggested we ease into heavier classes.  She's young, only turned 16 this year, but I didn't want her to experience this overwhelming year the last two got smacked with.  She has great EF skills but higher anxiety.   

So, so helpful.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Acadie]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:51 PM, BlsdMama said:

This isn't enabling.  This is hands on teaching of EF skills.  

 

I love this, and feel like it's the missing piece in many conversations about EF in teens. More social interaction and instruction in EF, less labeling and judgment.

I'll also add with all the crazy in college admissions, my dd ended up choosing to apply ED to a college where she thought she'd thrive both in academic and emotional ways, and that has a reputation for collaborative learning and a kind, supportive environment. While she's a high achiever, purely cutthroat admissions and academic environments don't appeal to her at all. College will be challenging for sure, but knowing she's going to a supportive place makes me feel a thousand times better about her transition. This will look different with different majors, but there are invariably differences in school or department culture that make a difference in student experience. 

It's not a bad thing if looking at college admissions culture gives you pause, as a family, and encourages you to look for schools that are a match both in terms of the academics and the culture of the school.

Amy

[moonflower]

On 1/10/2020 at 7:51 PM, BlsdMama said:

I've kept the parts above to respond.  He's almost 17 and taking 4 AP classes plus other rigorous courses.  I assume this is his first year with this heavy of a load.  I'm not saying it's *too* heavy, I'm agreeing with you that it is heavy.

So, as a kid I was considered exceptionally bright but poor organization.  These days, they've have called executive functioning issues.  Any ADHD there? (Not that it matters, but it's a part of the equation.)

I have pretty strong EF abilities now.  But, it really happened incrementally - both through a lot of my husband helping me to utilize tools (checklists, reminders, calendars, notes, etc.) and through experience - including failure. Now, OBVIOUSLY, you don't want him to fail just to give him that valuable experience!  But, here is what I would say.  A good deal of what you're wanting is something acquired over time and repetition.  It's not a one and done deal.  And for those who struggle with things like time management, organization, clearly understanding what to do and when to have adequate time, they really need someone to come alongside (gently) with reminders and accountability.

I can totally understand not wanting to take that on because it feels more like enabling than equipping.  But the thing is this: He's learning new material in every class AND NOW we want him to not just acquire all these other habits, but them into consistent practice.  These are the "one more things" that someone just doesn't have the mental space for.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain. 
On any given day, I can accomplish an incredible amount of stuff.  I've learned to do laundry for 13, cook for 13, ensure a clean house for 13, take kids to classes (28 minutes away) and still plan dinner, return calls, balance the budget, pay bills, hit doctor/dentist/eye appointments, take a couple college classes, etc.  But, when things get heavy?  I "drop" things.  I forget about that coffee date, I make the dentist appointment but forget I needed to pick up sauce for supper.  The house is less tidy or the laundry gets behind.  It's because the "always on" becomes mentally exhausting and you mostly focus on the things to which you are accountable.  So, in this example, I might not catch up on the laundry, but I can clean the black skirt that kiddo #6 needed for the choir concert.  The floor is sticky, but I knew I had to make the assignment deadline for class.  You see?  We look like we're succeeding to some people because we're hitting the highlights, but we're not.  We're floundering and people aren't seeing it...... yet.  Pretty soon it's a missed assignment that he forgot to do.  Then he fell asleep while reading X.  

You can't ask him to learn and institute new habits on his own.  You just can't.  You can offer to help him organize his work area every weekend!  You can sit down at the table at 4, look through his assignments, help him write them down and plan out his evening and week.  You could help him make checklists.  This isn't enabling.  This is hands on teaching of EF skills.  And he might do GREAT on it for the next three weeks and you think he's ready to go it alone, but he's not yet.  Accountability helps these kids - 100!  

It's probably the only way to get through this year without doing some grade damage.  I'd hold that hand.

It seems to me most of us hit this junior year, lol!  I have with my two most active kids!  And both said senior year felt lighter.  Was it actually?  Not really, but they grasped time management better by inches.  My fourth child is a junior this year and I suggested we ease into heavier classes.  She's young, only turned 16 this year, but I didn't want her to experience this overwhelming year the last two got smacked with.  She has great EF skills but higher anxiety.   

 

I agree with all of this; one of the best things I had going for me in high school was that my best friend lived with me, took all the same classes I did, and got me to school on time and told me when something was due.  I also had a planner in which I wrote every single thing, but that was largely a habit we'd been forced into in 7th grade, so it carried over and was second nature by high school.