Executive Functioning issues in teen

[MEmama]

DS (almost 17) is a junior in public high school. He’s a super bright kid, taking all Honors and AP classes, and is a top varsity runner with a goal of running in university. He enjoys school, is challenged in his courses and has a terrific group of friends (with one exception). He’s researching universities and thinking through future goals; in short, he’s motivated, intelligent and has a really good head on his shoulders.

That said, he’s floundering.

His work load is heavy. He is taking 4 AP classes this year and all his courses are rigorous. They demand planning and stellar time management, both of which he struggles mightily with. He is the type of person who should live by calendars and check lists, who should keep his life on his phone to keep himself on track. I’ve been preaching the importance of utilizing tools for years and years,  but he can be incredibly, self defeatedly stubborn and refuses the methods I’ve suggested. I *think* he’s struggling with executive functioning skills, and beyond what I’ve suggested I’m at a loss how to help him. 
 

As it stands, he’s barely keeping his head above water, struggling with anxiety and for certain feels like he’s drowning. His schoolwork is not too difficult; he just needs to figure out how to create space for himself to work effectively. 
 

We’ve spoken with a couple of his teachers (with his knowledge and approval) and they were clearly shocked. He doesn’t give any impression of struggling in class, but acknowledged they can never see the full picture. 
 

I'm at such a loss and concerned I'm overlooking something. I guess I’m asking for BTDT advice, books, methods...anything that might help him see that he needs to make some changes to get himself back on track. That he’s floundering junior year is of course the worst timing as far as university goes, which I know adds to his anxiety. 😞
 

[Miss Tick]

I'm sorry to hear he is struggling. What is his take on the situation? Does he recognize the benefit in your suggestions but can't get it together, or is he telling you they won't fix the problem, but without giving it a try? Or something else?

Did his teachers have any thing practical to suggest?

[Bambam]

I don't have a boy, but one of my girls isn't the best with keeping track of time/due dates/etc. I suggested several ways to do this with her. I gave her books to read. She scorned me and my suggestions. Fast forward to college and falling one whole letter grade because she turned in a report like 30 minutes late so she got a zero. She didn't get a scholarship that she would have because she turned the paperwork in late. Hum. She's figured out her way now so she can keep track of those things.

But, I do see other teens definitely 100% NOT want to do whatever mom does. 

I'd sit down with him and talk about the struggle and ask him what ways/methods/whatever he sees that might help tame the chaos and put things in a more manageable mode. Perhaps find a book on organizing/time management ideas and see which approach appeals to him? If he isn't willing to try/do something, I'd be tempted to tell him that as a parent looking out for his best interest - physical and mental health, we will be making some changes to his schedule - (not sure these are possible though!) - replacing on AP class with a regular class, removing one outside commitment, whatever. It sounds like he needs help, he can't figure it out for himself, and he needs help. And sometimes that help is to force them to scale back. Which is tough with an older teen that you are trying to help them develop independence. 

[Pen]

Maybe the primary problem could be anxiety with EF being affected by the stress and anxiety rather than a primary EF problem?  If so, it’s possible that your ideas of what he “should” be doing are causing more stress and anxiety? And if so, decreasing stress and anxiety may need to be focus before time management and other skills can be addressed. 

[MEmama]

7 minutes ago, SusanC said:

I'm sorry to hear he is struggling. What is his take on the situation? Does he recognize the benefit in your suggestions but can't get it together, or is he telling you they won't fix the problem, but without giving it a try? Or something else?

Did his teachers have any thing practical to suggest?

He thinks they won’t help. He protests and tells us that they just won’t work for him, he’s the type of person who gets more stressed out by making lists...and so on. So far, he refuses to try, thinking what he’s doing works for him, even though clearly it isn’t. 
 

His teachers were awesome and I’m glad we met with them, but they didn’t have much to offer since they don’t see the issues with him arise in their classrooms. One did mention she figures she wouldn’t; his grade is a highly competitive class and close knit group of over achievers, so the likelihood of one person admitting struggles is really unlikely, in her opinion. All his friends are equally bright and motivated, so it’s a lot to feel like he’s the only one struggling.
 

In his mind, he isn’t struggling, at least not on a certain level. “I understand the work just fine...”. I don’t know how to get him see the disconnect between his academic ability and the outcome, which are clearly at odds. 

[catz]

Has he been evaluated for LD's?  Has he been evaluated for anxiety?  I might start with those things. 

I might push to dial his schedule down to where he can be successful for now if possible.  College may not go well without this being resolved so I'd be pushing to try something different. If he is offered suggestions and says he won't, my guess is he can't and it's overwhelming for some reason.  I really would start with evals.  

Edited January 8, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[MEmama]

21 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I don't have a boy, but one of my girls isn't the best with keeping track of time/due dates/etc. I suggested several ways to do this with her. I gave her books to read. She scorned me and my suggestions. Fast forward to college and falling one whole letter grade because she turned in a report like 30 minutes late so she got a zero. She didn't get a scholarship that she would have because she turned the paperwork in late. Hum. She's figured out her way now so she can keep track of those things.

But, I do see other teens definitely 100% NOT want to do whatever mom does. 

I'd sit down with him and talk about the struggle and ask him what ways/methods/whatever he sees that might help tame the chaos and put things in a more manageable mode. Perhaps find a book on organizing/time management ideas and see which approach appeals to him? If he isn't willing to try/do something, I'd be tempted to tell him that as a parent looking out for his best interest - physical and mental health, we will be making some changes to his schedule - (not sure these are possible though!) - replacing on AP class with a regular class, removing one outside commitment, whatever. It sounds like he needs help, he can't figure it out for himself, and he needs help. And sometimes that help is to force them to scale back. Which is tough with an older teen that you are trying to help them develop independence. 

These are great ideas. He doesn’t have time to read helpful books, but I do. He usually listens to advice but this is a place he’s historically dug in. 
 

We have talked about replacing a class or two. Initially he was open to it but has since changed his mind. We will need to continue the conversation, however. 
 

His only other commitment is running, which we aren’t considering removing. It’s vital for his mental health and balance on all the levels. He has agreed to missing an occasional practice when he needs to, however, which is a huge admission for him. 

[sassenach]

We won’t allow our kids to take more than 3 APs in a semester, not because they have EF issues but because I do not believe the benefit of a full AP load matches the workload/stress. Ds is taking 2 this year and I actually think that’s the sweet spot, but my ambitious dd is going to buck at that limit, so I’ll allow 3 but it’s not my preference. 
 

You said his teachers were surprised and his grades are good? So is it the stress that you’re concerned about?

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

These are great ideas. He doesn’t have time to read helpful books, but I do. He usually listens to advice but this is a place he’s historically dug in. 
 

We have talked about replacing a class or two. Initially he was open to it but has since changed his mind. We will need to continue the conversation, however. 
 

His only other commitment is running, which we aren’t considering removing. It’s vital for his mental health and balance on all the levels. He has agreed to missing an occasional practice when he needs to, however, which is a huge admission for him. 

May I add that you also pull in his guidance counselor with him? Teens are often more likely to listen to other adults when they've poo pooed their parent's suggestions. Guidance counselors often see the ugly underside to high achieving kids (anxiety, pressure, etc.) so they may take this very seriously. I'd just tell the counselor what you've shared and ask if you can sit down with her and your son to brainstorm and figure out how to move forward with preparing for the future.

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, sassenach said:

We won’t allow our kids to take more than 3 APs in a semester, not because they have EF issues but because I do not believe the benefit of a full AP load matches the workload/stress. Ds is taking 2 this year and I actually think that’s the sweet spot, but my ambitious dd is going to buck at that limit, so I’ll allow 3 but it’s not my preference. 
 

You said his teachers were surprised and his grades are good? So is it the stress that you’re concerned about?

I'm not a fan of AP classes. I find dual enrollment more practical. Same workload, but not so much riding on a single test.

[Miss Tick]

So it sounds like he is still getting everything done to keep his grades high, but you see that if he were more efficient about the prices, life would be less stressful for him?

It seems like, at his age and surface level of success, your best shot would be to bring him alongside your thinking. Does he also see the situation in as incredibly stressful? Perhaps the first step is to come to agreement on what the problem is. Some kind of short phrase that you can come back to as you try to encourage changes.

[MEmama]

23 minutes ago, Pen said:

Maybe the primary problem could be anxiety with EF being affected by the stress and anxiety rather than a primary EF problem?  If so, it’s possible that your ideas of what he “should” be doing are causing more stress and anxiety? And if so, decreasing stress and anxiety may need to be focus before time management and other skills can be addressed. 

Yes, I think you are on to something to consider. 
 

In his case, the “ shoulds” are entirely on him. I don’t care at all what classes he takes, if he goes to private or public university, what he studies...it’s all his goals, with us just wanting to help him get to where he wants to go (and with better planning, absolutely can). The challenge is figuring out how to help him find the space to manage his time effectively in an effort to reduce the anxiety.

[MEmama]

20 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Has he been evaluated for LD's?  Has he been evaluated for anxiety?  I might start with those things. 

I might push to dial his schedule down to where he can be successful for now if possible.  College may not go well without this being resolved so I'd be pushing to try something different. If he is offered suggestions and says he won't, my guess is he can't and it's overwhelming for some reason.  I really would start with evals.  

Yes, definitely this.

He has not been evaluated. I don’t sense LDs, but anxiety...yeah, he’s prone for sure. 
 

We are brainstorming ways to reduce the load next semester, but it’s not easy to do given the school scheduling limitations. Understandably he also doesn’t want to, but more on point, most of his classes are only offered one period, leaving very little wiggle room without dropping or changing more than intended (small school!). I will definitely push for a lighter load senior year. 

[wintermom]

nm

Edited January 9, 2020 by wintermom

[MEmama]

13 minutes ago, sassenach said:

We won’t allow our kids to take more than 3 APs in a semester, not because they have EF issues but because I do not believe the benefit of a full AP load matches the workload/stress. Ds is taking 2 this year and I actually think that’s the sweet spot, but my ambitious dd is going to buck at that limit, so I’ll allow 3 but it’s not my preference. 
 

You said his teachers were surprised and his grades are good? So is it the stress that you’re concerned about?

I’m definitely worried about stress, and unfortunately his grades are tanking (for him). My DH said if this was any other kid he’d figure it was drugs. It’s THAT bad (and it’s definitely NOT drugs). 😞

[MEmama]

15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

May I add that you also pull in his guidance counselor with him? Teens are often more likely to listen to other adults when they've poo pooed their parent's suggestions. Guidance counselors often see the ugly underside to high achieving kids (anxiety, pressure, etc.) so they may take this very seriously. I'd just tell the counselor what you've shared and ask if you can sit down with her and your son to brainstorm and figure out how to move forward with preparing for the future.

Great idea. I can definitely set up an appointment with her. She’s been very responsive to previous issues.

[sassenach]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

I’m definitely worried about stress, and unfortunately his grades are tanking (for him). My DH said if this was any other kid he’d figure it was drugs. It’s THAT bad (and it’s definitely NOT drugs). 😞

I promise I’m not trying to be difficult, but what do you mean by his grades are tanking for him? I’m just trying to understand the disconnect between his teachers, who are grading him and also have a wider perspective, and your description. Because, I will tell you that my kids did not fail a test in their lives until they got into AP classes. And that has been a healthy experience for them. So if we’re talking that his class grade is a C and trending down, I would be concerned. But if it’s that he’s suddenly carrying B’s across the board or he got a D on a test, I think your perspective on APs May need to shift.  

[MysteryJen]

FWIW, I have had kids with varying levels of EF issues, a couple with other LDs and the other with complications of just being male and stubborn. We did a few things that helped.

1. I asked if they needed help. Everyone could use a secretary. There is absolutely no rule that says you have to do everything by yourself. 

2. They wanted help because no one wants to feel like a constant failure. We brainstormed on what would help the most. Calendar? Electronic or paper? reminders on phone? Dropping a class? 

3. Then we talked about implementing it. My kids with LDs would not use a calendar- it was like an additional chore. They have used reminders on their phone- and dd2 uses Google Home.

4. Then, they agreed that we would have a debrief every day. What happened, what was due, what was assigned. This usually happened in the car on the way to practice. Sports are necessary- do not take them away- they help with stress management and if they love them and want to pursue it later- they need to be included in time management practices.

Also they learn- some more quickly than others. I also think that 4 APs are too much- but that is something he will have to decide. As my oldest said about ds2's last semester when he decided to take six classes, "he was the architect of his own doom."  So yeah, he learned that six was too many for him.

The debrief, short and no judgment, no asking about grades, was the key for most of them. They had to start thinking about each class, and the hours in the day. Sometimes, you just have to get through- a B is FINE, even a C in an AP is FINE. 

[MEmama]

17 minutes ago, SusanC said:

So it sounds like he is still getting everything done to keep his grades high, but you see that if he were more efficient about the prices, life would be less stressful for him?

It seems like, at his age and surface level of success, your best shot would be to bring him alongside your thinking. Does he also see the situation in as incredibly stressful? Perhaps the first step is to come to agreement on what the problem is. Some kind of short phrase that you can come back to as you try to encourage changes.

He sees that there’s a problem. He’s literally shutting down, similar to the way I do when I’m overly anxious or stressed. 

The grades are not ok, it’s been a rough quarter. Knowing the importance of junior year grades is adding to the stress I’m certain. He’s literally watching coveted schools disappear from possibility. 😞

I hate this pressure on these kids, but it’s the system we have. And again—I only want him to achieve the things he wants to achieve, for him to feel proud of himself in his efforts. The pressure to “succeed” does NOT come from us. 
 

I like the phrase idea. Will have brainstorm on that.
 

[Miss Tick]

5 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

Sports are necessary- do not take them away

I agree. I made sure to say that explicitly, something like, "if your sport didn't take up so much time that would help, but the exercise is so important for your will-being that we are not going to touch that."

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I promise I’m not trying to be difficult, but what do you mean by his grades are tanking for him? I’m just trying to understand the disconnect between his teachers, who are grading him and also have a wider perspective, and your description. Because, I will tell you that my kids did not fail a test in their lives until they got into AP classes. And that has been a healthy experience for them. So if we’re talking that his class grade is a C and trending down, I would be concerned. But if it’s that he’s suddenly carrying B’s across the board or he got a D on a test, I think your perspective on APs May need to shift.  

He’s failing tests (Cs and Ds) despite knowing the content (second guessing himself). Grades are down from As and Bs to Cs. It is not a healthy experience for him. Not because he has to work hard (he like that), but because his anxiety is drowning him. 

He got through first quarter just fine, but something happened second quarter to cause him to flounder. My heart is breaking for him. 😞

[matrips]

Does the school use any electronic system?  My kids school uses an app called Canvas.  All their assignments (with details) and due dates are in there and they can look at it as a daily/weekly list or a calendar view.  It helps them see what’s coming up and plan.  How does his school give assignments?  Is it all verbal and nothing online?  Do the teachers input assignments somewhere?  Canvas is something that needs to be checked like a calendar, but I don’t know how else  they could see or manage their workload.  How does your son currently do it?  Mine don’t have to input the assignments though; the teachers do that.  I probably couldn’t see mine inputting or updating Canvas on their own.

  I use the parent version of canvas and can see what they have due and the assignment details and the grades they’ve gotten.  It’s been a huge help.  I’ve been able to look ahead through a week with them and see what their plan is. I can’t imagine them being able to keep up without something like that.

is it the calendar inputting that is an issue?  Would you be able to input and maintain the calendar of assignments/tests and activities for him to get him started?  Maybe he would be able to come to see the benefit.  

 

[MEmama]

15 minutes ago, MysteryJen said:

FWIW, I have had kids with varying levels of EF issues, a couple with other LDs and the other with complications of just being male and stubborn. We did a few things that helped.

1. I asked if they needed help. Everyone could use a secretary. There is absolutely no rule that says you have to do everything by yourself. 

2. They wanted help because no one wants to feel like a constant failure. We brainstormed on what would help the most. Calendar? Electronic or paper? reminders on phone? Dropping a class? 

3. Then we talked about implementing it. My kids with LDs would not use a calendar- it was like an additional chore. They have used reminders on their phone- and dd2 uses Google Home.

4. Then, they agreed that we would have a debrief every day. What happened, what was due, what was assigned. This usually happened in the car on the way to practice. Sports are necessary- do not take them away- they help with stress management and if they love them and want to pursue it later- they need to be included in time management practices.

Also they learn- some more quickly than others. I also think that 4 APs are too much- but that is something he will have to decide. As my oldest said about ds2's last semester when he decided to take six classes, "he was the architect of his own doom."  So yeah, he learned that six was too many for him.

The debrief, short and no judgment, no asking about grades, was the key for most of them. They had to start thinking about each class, and the hours in the day. Sometimes, you just have to get through- a B is FINE, even a C in an AP is FINE. 

Thank you for the perspective.

I'm totally stealing the secretary comment! 🙂 And “architect of his own doom”...that phrase totally nails DS in so many ways. We refer to it as self sabotage. 

[sassenach]

I’m trying to keep up with the thread, but here are a few thoughts- if it’s truly EF issues (and I still will argue that a lot of kids, even without EF deficits, are going to struggle with 4 AP plus honors), giving him a book of organizing strategies is NOT going to be helpful. I have 1 kid who struggled mightily with EF issues and I had to be the one doing the scaffolding. I could not tell her what to do, I had to do it for/with her. And of course, you cannot make a teen do anything, so the biggest hurdle is getting them to accept the help. Smart but Scattered Teens is a great book for you to read about how you can help him. 
 

Personally, I would strongly push him to drop 1 AP. I have an ambitious kid who took a class against my advice this year and she has come to realize that I was right. That’s a tough lesson. She’s going to try to drop down a level but in the meantime, it’s been a good lesson on balancing her load. 
 

As far As the system being what it is... I’m at was against that. I tell my kids, you will end up exactly where you are supposed to be. There are millions of opportunities in our country and none of this will be a dead end. Your job is to work hard and have some fun. 
 

I refuse to let my kids 1) believe the lie that their high school performance is the be all end all of their future happiness, and 2) squander what should be some of the most fun years of their lives. 
 

sorry, that was a soapbox not really directed at you but at the AP system (which, btw is dying and losing credibility for this very reason). 

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, SusanC said:

I agree. I made sure to say that explicitly, something like, "if your sport didn't take up so much time that would help, but the exercise is so important for your will-being that we are not going to touch that."

Yeah, absolutely.

I wouldn’t keep a demanding sport for every kid, but for DS it’s totally essential.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

We’ve spoken with a couple of his teachers (with his knowledge and approval) and they were clearly shocked. He doesn’t give any impression of struggling in class, but acknowledged they can never see the full picture. 

 

Its easier to be seen as not struggling in class by individual teachers but maintaining that “appearance” might be straining. Teachers don’t get to see the time spend on prep and homework. 

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

. All his friends are equally bright and motivated, so it’s a lot to feel like he’s the only one struggling.

 

38 minutes ago, MEmama said:

We have talked about replacing a class or two. Initially he was open to it but has since changed his mind. We will need to continue the conversation, however. 

 

Kids tend to want to stick with their friends so they are reluctant to drop or change classes.

20 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’m definitely worried about stress, and unfortunately his grades are tanking (for him). My DH said if this was any other kid he’d figure it was drugs. It’s THAT bad (and it’s definitely NOT drugs). 😞

 

17 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Great idea. I can definitely set up an appointment with her. She’s been very responsive to previous issues.

 

Guidance counselors are supposed to see the whole package, all his classes and extracurriculars. They will hopefully be able to gauge better on time management and workload.

What are the four APs? Some APs are more work intensive than others.  Chemistry was more time consuming than Physics C for my kids for example. Macroeconomics and Microeconomics were relaxing while Statistics was time consuming. My oldest heaviest workload this academic year is US history which is not even honors level. AP Environmental Science on the other hand was relaxing for him. 

[livetoread]

It may very well be the anxiety driving the self-sabatoge, and not the other way around. Is he (and you) open to seeing a therapist for strategies in dealing with anxiety? From what I’m hearing, I would start there, and I wouldn’t wait.

Edited January 8, 2020 by livetoread

[MEmama]

9 minutes ago, matrips said:

Does the school use any electronic system?  My kids school uses an app called Canvas.  All their assignments (with details) and due dates are in there and they can look at it as a daily/weekly list or a calendar view.  It helps them see what’s coming up and plan.  How does his school give assignments?  Is it all verbal and nothing online?  Do the teachers input assignments somewhere?  Canvas is something that needs to be checked like a calendar, but I don’t know how else  they could see or manage their workload.  How does your son currently do it?  Mine don’t have to input the assignments though; the teachers do that.  I probably couldn’t see mine inputting or updating Canvas on their own.

  I use the parent version of canvas and can see what they have due and the assignment details and the grades they’ve gotten.  It’s been a huge help.  I’ve been able to look ahead through a week with them and see what their plan is. I can’t imagine them being able to keep up without something like that.

is it the calendar inputting that is an issue?  Would you be able to input and maintain the calendar of assignments/tests and activities for him to get him started?  Maybe he would be able to come to see the benefit.  

 

Yes, his school uses a similar program. I agree it’s helpful. Not all his teachers post assignments there, but since he has so many APS he could (theoretically) follow the courses on the college board, at least for outlines and expectations. 

I honestly feel like inputting his assignments into a calendar would be hugely beneficial for him. I'm sure we all know from experience how keeping track of too much information clutters up otherwise useable brain space; my failure is getting him onboard. 

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, livetoread said:

It may very well be the anxiety driving the self-sabatoge, and not the other way around. Is he (and you) open to seeing a therapist for strategies in dealing with anxiety? From what I’m hearing, I would start there, and I wouldn’t wait.

 

And/or work on anxiety at home directly—supplements, DIY CBT, etc.

Is there any possibility that one demanding class could be replaced by a study hall or something that would/could  directly aid anxiety relief like art or yoga?

[Pen]

What are his APs?

 

And how many APs (and which) did he have last year? 

 

And how many classes total total this year?

Edited January 8, 2020 by Pen

[MEmama]

14 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I’m trying to keep up with the thread, but here are a few thoughts- if it’s truly EF issues (and I still will argue that a lot of kids, even without EF deficits, are going to struggle with 4 AP plus honors), giving him a book of organizing strategies is NOT going to be helpful. I have 1 kid who struggled mightily with EF issues and I had to be the one doing the scaffolding. I could not tell her what to do, I had to do it for/with her. And of course, you cannot make a teen do anything, so the biggest hurdle is getting them to accept the help. Smart but Scattered Teens is a great book for you to read about how you can help him. 
 

Personally, I would strongly push him to drop 1 AP. I have an ambitious kid who took a class against my advice this year and she has come to realize that I was right. That’s a tough lesson. She’s going to try to drop down a level but in the meantime, it’s been a good lesson on balancing her load. 
 

As far As the system being what it is... I’m at was against that. I tell my kids, you will end up exactly where you are supposed to be. There are millions of opportunities in our country and none of this will be a dead end. Your job is to work hard and have some fun. 
 

I refuse to let my kids 1) believe the lie that their high school performance is the be all end all of their future happiness, and 2) squander what should be some of the most fun years of their lives. 
 

sorry, that was a soapbox not really directed at you but at the AP system (which, btw is dying and losing credibility for this very reason). 

^^^ I love all of this.

I'm sure you are right about the 4 APs; none of us had any idea what he was getting into, and I think we (DH and I ) don’t fully appreciate  the workload. I'm sure DS doesn’t recognize that it’s unusual, given that all his friends/peer group are taking the same.

[Pen]

 

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

He is the type of person who should live by calendars and check lists, who should keep his life on his phone to keep himself on track.

 

Compare to: 

 

56 minutes ago, MEmama said:

In his case, the “ shoulds” are entirely on him.

 

 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, MEmama said:

^^^ I love all of this.

I'm sure you are right about the 4 APs; none of us had any idea what he was getting into, and I think we (DH and I ) don’t fully appreciate  the workload. I'm sure DS doesn’t recognize that it’s unusual, given that all his friends/peer group are taking the same.

 

There may be others in the group who are also stressed out, and / or struggling, but also hiding it.  

[MEmama]

18 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Its easier to be seen as not struggling in class by individual teachers but maintaining that “appearance” might be straining. Teachers don’t get to see the time spend on prep and homework. 

 

 

Kids tend to want to stick with their friends so they are reluctant to drop or change classes.

 

 

Guidance counselors are supposed to see the whole package, all his classes and extracurriculars. They will hopefully be able to gauge better on time management and workload.

What are the four APs? Some APs are more work intensive than others.  Chemistry was more time consuming than Physics C for my kids for example. Macroeconomics and Microeconomics were relaxing while Statistics was time consuming. My oldest heaviest workload this academic year is US history which is not even honors level. AP Environmental Science on the other hand was relaxing for him. 

Calculus AB, Statistics, Java, and European History.

He's doing fine in Calc and Stats, he’s getting back on track in Java (I think this is his teachers first year teaching high school, there have been some communication issues. But we’ve met with her and that seemed to help), and he big puffy heart loves Euro. He recently dropped a grade (to a B) because of one lousy test, but I think he can recover and a B is fine if not. The others would be hard to drop because he wants to go into engineering or computer science so they are necessary for any university program he’s looking at.

His toughest classes are Honors English (which would be the most likely for him to drop a level) and Honors Chemistry. I think it would be beneficial for him to drop a level for both but I’m not sure his schedule allows for it. 

 

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

And/or work on anxiety at home directly—supplements, DIY CBT, etc.

Is there any possibility that one demanding class could be replaced by a study hall or something that would/could  directly aid anxiety relief like art or yoga?

He has a study hall and will keep it next semester—he wanted to replace it with another history course. I’m glad he agreed to keep the study hall without a fuss!
 

There's been a lot of learning this year that life offers way more than we can realistically participate in. 

[Miss Tick]

Could you ask him to list out current assignments so that *you* can understand what he is juggling at the moment? Of course this would also help him see it. Then you both have a list from which you can ask things like when particular items are due it how long he thinks particular things will take, etc. This would not be a long-term fix, but might illustrate the complications of this snapshot in time. Maybe that would help him see that he needs a more explicit plan?

[MEmama]

20 minutes ago, Pen said:

What are his APs?

 

And how many APs (and which) did he have last year? 

 

And how many classes total total this year?

Calc, Stats, Java and Euro. Out of six classes (a couple classes are 1.5 time blocks).

He had 2 last year.

[Pen]

 

5 minutes ago, MEmama said:

The others would be hard to drop because he wants to go into engineering or computer science so they are necessary for any university program he’s looking at.

 

Junior year APs of all those classes are necessary?  Are you sure? 

 

 

[MEmama]

16 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Compare to: 

 

 

 

Ha ha! Point taken. 🙂

What I meant above is that he would * benefit* from using management tools like calendars and lists.

The “shoulds” I was thinking of and referring to are academic expectations. He has always pushed himself.

[MEmama]

9 minutes ago, SusanC said:

Could you ask him to list out current assignments so that *you* can understand what he is juggling at the moment? Of course this would also help him see it. Then you both have a list from which you can ask things like when particular items are due it how long he thinks particular things will take, etc. This would not be a long-term fix, but might illustrate the complications of this snapshot in time. Maybe that would help him see that he needs a more explicit plan?

I try. It’s usually met with so much reluctance. 😞

I think I do need to get him to see the differences in how long he *thinks* assignments will take vs the reality. Ugh time management! 

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Junior year APs of all those classes are necessary?  Are you sure? 

 

 

As it is he feels behind applicants from more urban schools who have a wider variety of APs available. His school doesn’t offer Physics C for example, or any AP science except bio at all. He wants to do physics on his own this summer and take Physics C at a local college next year, but we’ve nixed that idea.
He's not wrong, unfortunately, at least for the schools he’s interested in. 
I really, really hate the college game.

[Acadie]

My friend hired an EF coach for her son. They meet a couple times a week online, going over assignments etc. It's helped enormously, providing him with new strategies and regular accountability, and has relieved the pressure it put on their relationship to have a third party involved. 

My dd is a senior. Junior year and fall of senior year were really hard. I think you're smart to address this. 

FWIW, my dd's very academically rigorous high school advises students not to take more than 4 AP/Honors classes per semester. So she breezed through her history class, where she could have been more challenged, but had plenty of challenge everywhere else. I think we ask high school students to do way, way too much, these days, and kids everywhere are showing signs of strain. 

Amy

[catz]

39 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Junior year APs of all those classes are necessary?  Are you sure? 

My kid is in a top 15 CS program and never took any APs.  He did do DE but they forced him back a bit in math.  Which, meh, isn't too bad to get used to the pacing in a college math class.  Just throwing that out there.  Many kids choose to bump back a math course to make sure they have good grounding even with a decent AP score.

If he completes these classes, will his school force him to take the AP test?  Because you can do the course work without taking the test.  My kid did do Ap course work for 2 classes but didn't test.  

ETA - and there are many degree paths as well.  I would be de-emphasizing the need to follow a very narrow particular path.  If this is an issue now, it will only get worse in college without resolution.  

Edited January 8, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, livetoread said:

It may very well be the anxiety driving the self-sabatoge, and not the other way around. Is he (and you) open to seeing a therapist for strategies in dealing with anxiety? From what I’m hearing, I would start there, and I wouldn’t wait.

That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t considered. 
I'm definitely open to getting him any help available. I can’t imagine he will be open to it, but it might be in his best interest to not give much of a choice. Certainly it is essential that he learns better coping skills before college. 
You gave me a lot to think about.

[MEmama]

30 minutes ago, Acadie said:

My friend hired an EF coach for her son. They meet a couple times a week online, going over assignments etc. It's helped enormously, providing him with new strategies and regular accountability, and has relieved the pressure it put on their relationship to have a third party involved. 

My dd is a senior. Junior year and fall of senior year were really hard. I think you're smart to address this. 

FWIW, my dd's very academically rigorous high school advises students not to take more than 4 AP/Honors classes per semester. So she breezed through her history class, where she could have been more challenged, but had plenty of challenge everywhere else. I think we ask high school students to do way, way too much, these days, and kids everywhere are showing signs of strain. 

Amy

This is very helpful to hear. I honestly think we had no idea that this load could be too much; hearing that it is from so many people here is eye opening and reassuring. I totally agree about the pressure we (collectively) put on our high school students. It makes me angry and sick when I think about it too much. 
I'd never heard of a EF coach. I would jump on any opportunity to have someone else be the “manager”.

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

My kid is in a top 15 CS program and never took any APs.  He did do DE but they forced him back a bit in math.  Which, meh, isn't too bad to get used to the pacing in a college math class.  Just throwing that out there.  Many kids choose to bump back a math course to make sure they have good grounding even with a decent AP score.

If he completes these classes, will his school force him to take the AP test?  Because you can do the course work without taking the test.  My kid did do Ap course work for 2 classes but didn't test.  

ETA - and there are many degree paths as well.  I would be de-emphasizing the need to follow a very narrow particular path.  If this is an issue now, it will only get worse in college without resolution.  

We are finding that the schools we’ve toured and researched require their freshman to retake their Calc classes, despite making Calc a requirement for their maths/science programs. He’s totally fine with that, knowing the pace will be essentially double time compared to high school. 
 

His school doesn’t require students take the AP tests, AFAIK. Although, universities want to see a 4 or 5, so in essence he does need to test for admittance (definitely for schools overseas). I’m not sure how admissions would see a student who took an AP class but not the test, if the class relates to/ is a  prerequisite for their intended degree program? I could definitely see doing that for classes that weren't directly related.

He is keeping an open mind about future degree paths. He’s definitely math and science geared, but he’s having fun playing with various possibilities. 🙂 

[matrips]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Yes, his school uses a similar program. I agree it’s helpful. Not all his teachers post assignments there, but since he has so many APS he could (theoretically) follow the courses on the college board, at least for outlines and expectations. 

I honestly feel like inputting his assignments into a calendar would be hugely beneficial for him. I'm sure we all know from experience how keeping track of too much information clutters up otherwise useable brain space; my failure is getting him onboard. 

Do you have access to input the missing assignments?  Or to add deliverable dates?  (Ie:  outline due, topic sentences due, etc)

my three started high school this fall and one ds started drowning a month or two in.  I had been fairly hands off and just letting them manage.  The boys have one AP and all honors courses as freshman.  He doesn’t take help easily, but once I forced it on him (I can be stubborn too! 😂), he did admit it was helpful and he got himself back together.  He was shutting down due to being overwhelmed.  

The new semester just started this week and I’m scaffolding him again.  He needs it.  His other two siblings do not.  He hates writing things down and planning things out; he thinks it wastes time 🙄.  I keep trying to show him how it ultimately saves time and energy.  It’s a process. 

Can you tell him- Since his way isn't working well, it is time to trust mama and try her way for a semester? 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Calculus AB, Statistics, Java, and European History.

He's doing fine in Calc and Stats, he’s getting back on track in Java (I think this is his teachers first year teaching high school, there have been some communication issues. But we’ve met with her and that seemed to help), and he big puffy heart loves Euro. He recently dropped a grade (to a B) because of one lousy test, but I think he can recover and a B is fine if not. The others would be hard to drop because he wants to go into engineering or computer science so they are necessary for any university program he’s looking at.

 

41 minutes ago, MEmama said:

As it is he feels behind applicants from more urban schools who have a wider variety of APs available. His school doesn’t offer Physics C for example, or any AP science except bio at all. He wants to do physics on his own this summer and take Physics C at a local college next year, but we’ve nixed that idea.
He's not wrong, unfortunately, at least for the schools he’s interested in. 
I really, really hate the college game.

 

DS15 is currently interested in majoring in computer science/engineering/maths. His only highly selective school is Stanford because it’s a short drive away and he doesn’t expect to get in.

DS15 drop AP European History last January because we could not find a test site with vacancy for him to take the AP exam. It freed up plenty of time on his schedule because the readings alone took up his entire Sunday and he is a fast reader.

AP Statistics was quite easy in terms of courseload. My kids did it in summer 2018 and took the exam in May 2019. What was tiring was the homework because it just took time to compute. 

Both my kids took AP Calculus BC. My DS15 gets to skip the first two Maths quarter courses in community college because of his exam score. He took the Calculus BC exam in May 2017 and took his first math dual enrollment class in Sept 2019. Some community colleges have Calculus 2 online in summer, that might be a better choice time wise than AP Calculus BC in senior year.

Both kids took AP Computer Science A (Java) and the community college doesn’t award credit for that so DS15 starts at the bottom of the ladder/sequence for computer science courses. It was a light course for both my kids, they spent Fridays on the Edhesive AP Computer Science A course and did some test prep for the exam and that was it.

Why are you against the physics at a local college next year? Which engineering is he looking at? Has he taken the Math 2 subject test? He could self study for the Physics subject test and take it in August. The engineering schools my kids looked at all would like Math 2 and a Science subject test. DS14 found the physics subject test (self study and then crash course from DS15) easier than the chemistry subject test.

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

My kid is in a top 15 CS program and never took any APs.  He did do DE but they forced him back a bit in math.  Which, meh, isn't too bad to get used to the pacing in a college math class.  Just throwing that out there.  Many kids choose to bump back a math course to make sure they have good grounding even with a decent AP score.

If he completes these classes, will his school force him to take the AP test?  Because you can do the course work without taking the test.  My kid did do Ap course work for 2 classes but didn't test.  

ETA - and there are many degree paths as well.  I would be de-emphasizing the need to follow a very narrow particular path.  If this is an issue now, it will only get worse in college without resolution.  

 

I wish I HAD bumped back a class in math despite a 5 on the AP Calculus BC.

I was a Computer Science major and that decision not to bump back a class really wrecked my math. I couldn't ever seem to "catch up" -- Math taught at a college level is WAY different than at a HS level. (It also didn't help I went from getting that 5 my junior year of HS to the next math class I took being the spring term of my first year of college.)

 

I DID understand the math my 11th grade year. But I would have done much better DEing the math and getting used to how it was taught, etc at the college level than thinking a 5 on the AP class meant I could skip right to the next math class in college.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by vonfirmath

[Kalmia]

We are experiencing similar burnout in our daughter who is a sophomore (14), very internally motivated. She is taking 8.5 classes, two of which are APs. My husband and I are very against the AP model, both for its survey-course breakneck speed and shallow content and because it is primarily a money-making scheme for the College Board, which is an institution we loathe for far too many reasons to get into here. We also don't have the motivation to "save money" on college courses by doing them in high school like some parents do want or need as our daughter is interested in small liberal arts colleges where they generally don't teach introductory matter in giant survey courses (might be different if she were likely to go to a university). But despite our rejection of the model. we let our daughter take the two APs (and additional big course load) anyway because she has always been so gung-ho about challenging academics. I will add that she is in a wealthy suburban public school where the parents have been browbeating their kids about top achievement since kindergarten so it is a very competitive, ugly, culture where most of the kids are exhausted, miserable, and have no lives of their own, everything they do is to build a resume for college admissions. She says we are the odd parents who don't push and don't get mad about grades (A dip to a grade of 94 would be a reason for "a talk" from most parents here). 

It is now right before mid-terms and our daughter's migraines have increased, she is emotionally exhausted, sleep deprived and wants to quit. None of us like it here (we don't fit in at all in the regional culture) and we planned to move back to Maine to a small town with a private town academy after this school year where the kids are actually have fun and live high school lives, not future-oriented lives. Because of how miserable dd is, we may try to move as soon as possible. But, she has realized that there is a toll to trying to do too much, which is a good learning experience, but she is still too young to put this new knowledge into practice especially in opposition to the school culture. She rejected our advice earlier in the year to drop a couple courses. We should have insisted. As much as we want her to be an agent for her own future, she is still a young person without enough life experience to always do things that are in her own best interest. Anyway, it is certainly not a deficit in her executive function that led her to this stressful situation. It would be impossible for her to do all the work that is thrown at her in all her courses.  The high-pressure culture of these types of high schools encourages teens to take on too much just because they are smart or promising or want big things for their future instead of nurturing their hearts and minds and guiding them to take a selection of courses that will allow them time to really delve deep and enjoy the material. 

So honestly, I don't think there is an executive function deficit in most of these smart high school kids. They are overburdened by work at a level that even an adult would feel crushed under and they don't have enough down-time to recover because the pace is relentless. I also think that even smart, motivated kids can be wrong about what they can handle. Until they are in the midst of it, it all seems do-able and if they are surrounded by other high-achieving (often parent-driven) teens, the teachers keep getting all that crazy work turned in on time so the teachers believe it is appropriate, not realizing the emotional and sometimes physical toll it is taking on their students. 

Also, the AP World teacher met with all the parents before the school year. He knows their steamroller ways well. He told them point blank that their straight A kids were not going to get an A in AP World. Almost nobody gets and A in it, and the parents need to understand that and try to believe that a B is a good grade. He was basically begging them not to punish the kids for getting a B in their AP courses (He didn't dare mention Cs. There are probably more of those handed out too, but had he said the C word there would have been an attack of helicopter blades! lol). My takeaway was that it is designed to be a hard class, almost impossible, and life does not begin or end with it. Colleges know that Bs in many APs are often the top mark for the majority of the class. 
 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Kalmia