Young adult children and launching

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Neither of mine could be considered fully launched even though one is married and has her own home.  She has needed financial support almost every month due to medical needs. She was diagnosed with cancer about 6 months ago. In order for them to make ends meet, DH and I have helped pay some of their bills and purchase incidentals.

DS just finished his final college semester and moved back home. He wants to write a book and DH and I have agreed to help support him for a while. It actually helps us a bit since DH and I travel with our jobs and we have been paying someone to watch the house and dog while we are gone.

[gardenmom5]

34 minutes ago, katilac said:

This is a tough comparison to begin with, because it's hardly likely that Warren Buffett's offspring would have trouble finding a well-paying job, lol. In addition to that, Buffett's statements often get interpreted to mean that he does not/did not help his grown kids financially, when that is not the case. 

The clearest statement he has made is that his kids won't inherit the bulk of his fortune. That does not mean no inheritance or no monetary help; each of them has a two billion dollar trust. When the 1% say that they aren't leaving 'much' of their money to their kids, it has an entirely different meaning, lol. Bill Gates has remarked about leaving his kids a 'miniscule' portion of his estate, but a miniscule portion of $81 billion is hardly a miniscule amount of money. One percent would still be $810 million dollars.

Gates has stated he was willing to leave his kids maybe $10M. (with what inflation has been like since he said that, it might be more like $20M)  that's it.  significantly smaller than the 1% you mention Buffett leaving his kids.  Gates has said,  enough to do what they want, not enough to do "nothing".  still more than many, but you'll never see his kids on the rich kids of Instagram.

 

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Financial obligation is a tricky thing.

In theory 18 is an adult and we owe them nothing legally. But in practice there are heavy penalties for the children of parent who do that. 

For example, they can’t go to college or trade school bc their financial contribution is based on their parent income until they are 25.

Usually if they want a car or apartment they are going to need a loan and it is not unusual to need a co-signer unless they have been at their place of employment at least a year and have a lot to put down. In my area you can’t live on your own without a car.  In a much larger city you might be able to walk or bus but the rent is exponentially higher. 

Warren Buffet has helped his grown kids and grandchildren a tonne.  All of them live very comfortable lives, though they do so in a mostly quiet manner similar to the example warren and his wife have set.

if their parents aren't giving them any support, that can be included in their aid applications and parents income not considered.

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

if their parents aren't giving them any support, that can be included in their aid applications and parents income not considered.

My understanding is that is very very difficult to accomplish.

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Gates has stated he was willing to leave his kids maybe $10M. (with what inflation has been like since he said that, it might be more like $20M)  that's it.  significantly smaller than the 1% you mention Buffett leaving his kids.  Gates has said,  enough to do what they want, not enough to do "nothing".  still more than many, but you'll never see his kids on the rich kids of Instagram.

No, I didn't say Buffett was leaving his kids 1%, I said they each have a two billion dollar trust. I speculated that 1% might fit the 'miniscule portion' mentioned by Gates, but you are correct, they have specifically mentioned each kid getting ten million dollars. I mean, I'll take it 😂

The point remains that ultra-rich people not giving or leaving their kids 'much' has a vastly different meaning. 

Jamie Johnson, of the Johnson & Johnson family and fortune, did a documentary on kids born rich that I want to watch. I think this quote says a lot: 

“When vastly wealthy people say, ‘I’m not leaving my kids any money,’ it’s typically not true,” he says. Even when children don’t have immediate access to cash, they get the best schooling, housing, contacts and opportunities. “All of these are things that only rich families can do. These are all different ways of transferring wealth and influence.”

Barring issues like addiction or mental illness, no child of ultra-wealthy parents will have trouble supporting themselves. They may not be ultra-wealthy themselves, but they can certainly live a very affluent lifestyle with a modicum of effort. 

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

if their parents aren't giving them any support, that can be included in their aid applications and parents income not considered.

From everything I have read and observed, it is very difficult to prove your parents are not supporting you at typical college age, and exceedingly rare to get aid based on your own income only. https://www.simpletuition.com/financial-aid/independent-or-dependent-student-status/

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I didn't answer your poll because there are no options for adult offspring who are not 100% launched, but are well on their way.

We have two adult children, one graduated from college at 20, and is now 22 yo. The other, who will be graduating in the spring, and is 23yo.

The 22yods finished college at age 20, and is almost fully independent. We pay his health insurance because he is a self-employed/ freelance contractor, and we can keep him on our plan as a "Young Adult" until he is 26. We also have him on our cell phone family plan (costs us about $15/month, but would cost him several times that.)  He pays for everything else.

The 23yo is still in college, and is fully dependent on us. After graduating in May, things will change, but we have no idea of the details. We will pay health insurance (and cell phone), just as we do for Ds, until Dc turns 26. This child went through a terrible bout of depression and anxiety for a couple years (would have at one time been called a 'nervous breakdown"). Dc is much better now, but changed academic majors, which added two years to the college process. Launching has been more of a slow climb with lots of peaks and valleys. The future is unknown, but Dc is showing a desire to get out on their own, maybe even move to another state, where they will have more opportunities.  We shall see what happens.

 

[elegantlion]

I voted other. Ds is 22, still in college and lives with my mom. It's also my home when I'm not "off at college" myself. Ds may not launch in the traditional sense, he's happy living with my mother - they're buddies. It's a very symbiotic relationship. If he finds a career here, he'll probably stay in this house. 

We qualify for the pell grant, so that covers some of his college expenses and he takes out some loans for living expenses. He's paid his own cell phone bill since he was about 15, he pays some of the household expenses, but no rent while he's in college. He has his own car - hand me down from his late father - and we split the cost of the insurance. As he finishes college, his financial responsibilities will increase. 

I never thought we'd have an inter-generational house, but it's been working out great so far, 3 + years and counting. 

 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

N 

The point remains that ultra-rich people not giving or leaving their kids 'much' has a vastly different meaning. 

 

Barring issues like addiction or mental illness, no child of ultra-wealthy parents will have trouble supporting themselves. They may not be ultra-wealthy themselves, but they can certainly live a very affluent lifestyle with a modicum of effort. 

From everything I have read and observed, it is very difficult to prove your parents are not supporting you at typical college age, and exceedingly rare to get aid based on your own income only. https://www.simpletuition.com/financial-aid/independent-or-dependent-student-status/

which probably is why the guy (graduated Princeton?) shot daddy when daddy cut his allowance.  Daddy was tired of him doing "nothing", after paying for him to develop the skills to get a good job. Mom is testifying against him - though she still loves her son.

at least one of buffett's granddaughters is on record WHINGING about how he's "leaving them nothing".  he paid for your college dearie . . . . . . . 

 

if you're living with your parents - yeah, it's going to be hard to prove they're not helping you financially - even if they're not paying tuition.  if you live on your own, and are paying your bills - it's much easier.   (and awards are higher.)

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, elegantlion said:

I voted other. Ds is 22, still in college and lives with my mom. It's also my home when I'm not "off at college" myself. Ds may not launch in the traditional sense, he's happy living with my mother - they're buddies. It's a very symbiotic relationship. If he finds a career here, he'll probably stay in this house. 

We qualify for the pell grant, so that covers some of his college expenses and he takes out some loans for living expenses. He's paid his own cell phone bill since he was about 15, he pays some of the household expenses, but no rent while he's in college. He has his own car - hand me down from his late father - and we split the cost of the insurance. As he finishes college, his financial responsibilities will increase. 

I never thought we'd have an inter-generational house, but it's been working out great so far, 3 + years and counting. 

 

 

 

That's sweet.  like the grandson who wanted to get to know his "nana" better, so he started taking her around to the national parks. Their goal is to see them all.  they've had quite the adventures in their three years (so far) of travels.  (it's not non-stop.)

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

if their parents aren't giving them any support, that can be included in their aid applications and parents income not considered.

This is so extremely difficult that literally the only way to qualify is to either supply proof they were a state foster child at graduation or supply proof that parents are dead or otherwise incapacitated.  If you can’t check those boxes, you don’t qualify.  The schools won’t even discuss it with you.  Call them.  Try it.  Please prove me wrong.  I don’t know anyone that delights in being wrong more than me.  I have personally tried to help at least 2 children that aren’t mine do this.  In 2 different states.  I know other people who have seen young adults screwed over by parents with this attitude as well. And yes, I view it as screwed over when an adult can’t even fill out FAFSA because their parents think it will build character to withhold any and all assistance.

ETA:  I think it should be illegal to require an adult have the financial information of another adult to qualify for an education or training or medical care. Not because I don’t think family should help, but because I know too many that can’t or won’t.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Murphy101

[sheryl]

34 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Huh? I thought we were having a perfectly friendly discussion? And I can't answer the poll as my kids are teens still at home. I'm not complaining about your poll choices. I'm just trying to ask questions to further discussion. I don't know how anything I said could be an attack.

I'm saying that I see this question here on the WTM forums framed in ways that I rarely see it in the circles I move in. And I genuinely do think there's a very blurry line between "gifts" and "support." It's not at all clear to me which are which. I'm not sure why it's so clear to you or others. And part of what I'm saying too is that I think the more privileged a family is, the more likely they are to see resources and money flowing from them to their adult children as a "gift" and not as "support." And the less privileged a family is in my experience, the more likely they are to see resources and support flowing from them to their adult children as a burden, a form of support, and as undermining independence. Also, the less privilege, the more likely it is that the resources that flow from them to their children are going to be things like living at home as opposed to an extra fat check for a birthday.

As someone who is lucky enough to have extended family who definitely have disposable income, I guess I wonder how much the mindset that it's support vs. gifts helps or hurts young adults starting out. Like, dh and my grandparents often gifted us big cash at holidays. We had two hand me down cars from dh's parents in the first few years of our marriage, eliminating the need for us to buy cars ourselves. My father also gifted us money at various points. He also paid off my undergrad student loans for me not long after college. Obviously, all that pays bigger dividends the farther you get away from it. And also obviously, the more money a family has, the more money they have. It's one of the problems of our society - this myth that we can somehow strike out on our own and just get rich. It's a very rare story and getting statistically rarer. Most young people who take those innovative risks are doing it while on their parents' insurance. So the whole question is a very difficult one to really see a clear answer to. And I'm curious how much the "it's just gifts!" view adds to the privilege of the whole question.

Farrar, it's friendly to a point.  But, you persist in calling my word choice negative.  That's your choice.  Just as it's mine to ask general questions.   Most people can fall in one of the categories.  If all else fails, choose other and be done with it; it's up to a poster to explain or not.  You're entitled to your opinion.  I would agree that a ya is "mostly" independent if the parent/s are only paying for insurance or phone, for example.  But, my question stands.  I'd like to know who has y.a. on this forum who are FULLY independent.   My reasoning, as mentioned earlier, is one of believing it would be very difficult to y.a. to be FULLY independent up to 25 and maybe beyond.  But, I'm not going to answer for people on this board.  They will tell me if their ds/dd has been 100% ind or not and under what circumstances if they choose to share.  I'm not sure why you're making this so difficult.  

And, we are run in "different circles", Farrar.  So, your experience might explain such and thus.  Others on this board will have different experiences b/c we all fall on a continuum of income.  Again, just b/c someone has mega millions does not automatically suggest that person will assist their family member financially.  Maybe in your circles but we all run in different circles.   Where on earth did I say it was clear to ME what a gift is/is not?  HUH!????

Are you saying your experience is only with a certain set of people - circle?  IDK, I learn the experiences of many people at different economic levels.  The gift vs support, while I understand what you're saying, is kind of twisting the poll.  I think you're reading in to it too much.  Just in general.  Someone has flood damage and they need assistance, that's a crisis situation.  I'm not referring to that.   Take it at face value.  

[Murphy101]

23 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

which probably is why the guy (graduated Princeton?) shot daddy when daddy cut his allowance.  Daddy was tired of him doing "nothing", after paying for him to develop the skills to get a good job. Mom is testifying against him - though she still loves her son.

at least one of buffett's granddaughters is on record WHINGING about how he's "leaving them nothing".  he paid for your college dearie . . . . . . . 

 

if you're living with your parents - yeah, it's going to be hard to prove they're not helping you financially - even if they're not paying tuition.  if you live on your own, and are paying your bills - it's much easier.   (and awards are higher.)

One: that granddaughter of warren’s is the exception of all his kids and grandkids and yeah everyone ignores her bc it’s silly whining. 

Two: you can’t get those higher awards until you have lived on your own at least one year AND are 25 yrs old. And the higher awards don’t mean much if your living expenses triple or even quadruple. 
 

Three: the man didn’t shoot his father over allowance. He shot his father bc he has mental illness. More likely the parents cut his funds bc they wanted him to seek treatment instead of using it for self-destructive activities. I know some families desperately struggling in this situation as well. None of the well-off families I know struggling with this even care if their kid works or finishes college anymore. They just want their kid to not self-destruct and live to at least 30. They are unbelievably grateful to have the funds to supply treatment if their child will ever take it. Those without those funds are just flat out desperate and desolate. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Murphy101

[sheryl]

5 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

I didn't vote- because the choices didn't seem quite right to me. I am with Farrar on this question; I do think that class and parental ability to help plays in. I was independent when I graduated from college- but wow, lived close to the bone in grad school. No medical care, never saw a dentist, no extras- I ran my stipend check to the single digits every month. My brother and sister got more help- I don't know why. When dh and I married, we were independent, but his parents, remembering their young married days, frequently gave us money "just because."

So by your last comment, no- none of my kids are "fully" independent. They are on our insurance- because they are under 25 and we want them to be insured. I pay for the cell phones because they got them in high school and we have continued a family plan. They use our Netflix login in (I use my mother's for cable occasionally). We buy plane tickets home because we want to see them. I put money in their account if I have a little extra- things that would have made my young adult life easier and kinder.

We have gifted the oldest two used cars for college graduation. And dd2 will get hers early- she has a full athletic ride to school. So she can't work a job- she already has one. We agreed to help with dd1's rent this year (in law school) because she also had a large athletic scholarship and we paid very little for her degree. 

We are sure they will be fully independent- sooner (ds1 just got his first job where benefits are actually available and dd2 will graduate from law school) rather than later. Work ethic for most of them was learned through the hard grind of athletics, they know how to budget, they are careful with my money and theirs. We are family- I am going to help out my kids to the best of my ability for as long as I am able. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, family helps.  I'm not judging anyone.   I am just curious who has launched a fully independent adult.   That's it!  My dd is no where near ready and won't be for some time.  I'm just gathering info from people to learn how likely it is for a ya to "think"  they can actually be self-sufficient and execute that plan 100%.  Does that make sense?

 

 

 

[sheryl]

5 hours ago, Joker said:

So, are they fully independent if I still pay for those things but they don't NEED me to do so? I guess I'm a bit confused too as I don't agree with the above. I'm going to continue to help because I can not because they need me to. 

It's not a matter of needing, wanting, have to, want to, need to.  ALL I'M ASKING IS - ARE YOU KIDS FULLY LAUNCHED?  Fully means just that.  I'm not "inferring" your dc should be out or not - not my business.  I'm just asking for information.  IOW, are there a lot of 18 - 24 yo out there NOT living under your roof?   They have their own place and are independent.  Gifts are good.  That a gift is a gift.  They would be able to survive if they did not receive that gift. 

[sheryl]

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well, there still IS a lot of gray area within facts.

If my husband’s employer offered a good family plan for health insurance, I’d 100% keep my kids on it until the last available second unless they had access to something better and/or cheaper, no matter their own income.  If there were a premium contribution, I would expect them to cover it if they were in a position to do so.  If not, they could be millionaires and I’d still choose to give them “free” health insurance.

Since I DON’T have any fabulous health care options, I do anticipate them getting their own if the situation doesn’t change. They’ll likely have more affordable options as a non-dependent with their own income... whether I pay for it (likely at less than I do now) or they do.

I wouldn’t cut my kids off of good insurance access for the purpose of calling them “fully independent”, and I wouldn’t downgrade their status because of a corrupt and cruel system.

But, Carrie, you're reading in to the poll as Farrar has done, imo.  At this "point in time" is how the poll should be answered.  Your offered "if's" but I'm wanting to deal with facts of "now".   HTH!

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

DD was fully independent upon graduation from college at the age of 21. (ETA: She is still on our health insurance because it makes financial sense. She would be able to pay for her own, but that would be stupid. So yeah, if you want that to count as NOT independent, be my guest - to me such a definition makes zero sense. Why should she throw money out the window if she can be insured through me without cost since I am still paying for dependent insurance for her brother anyway? She does not NEED my assistance.)

DS 20 is still in college and financially dependent.

Oh my goodness, regentrude!  I'm not supporting one path or the other.   It's not my business.  There are pros and cons for both I'm sure.  I'm simply ASKING how it is in your family - reason for the poll.  

I don't get how many inferences and assumptions there are from many but ok......

[Wheres Toto]

15 hours ago, Farrar said:

I haven’t launched any yet, but nearly all the young adults I know, including professionals, even some that are married, get occasional gifts of money or things like hand me down cars or are still on their parents’ insurance. Because that’s our world. These questions, which I see here all the time, imply an economy and a society that I simply don’t see often, at least in the circles I run in. The process of young people not getting any support is very slow.

 

This is my world too.  I'm in an extremely HCOL area so it's very unusual for young adults to be fully launched until they are either married (and still probably get occasional help) or have been working for years.   A studio apartment around here is over $1200 a month NOT including utilities.

I didn't answer the poll but mine is not launched.  She has a college degree, is working full time and working on her master's degree, lives with my mother and doesn't pay rent but pays all her other expenses, except she's on our insurance until she ages out.

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, wintermom said:

I'm not sure what the purpose is of this poll. If it's to count numbers and ages, then I guess a clear definition of "independent" is required. If it's to gather a greater depth and detail of information, then do the qualitative collection and analysis. Seems to me that a number and age count will give very limited information, but if that what the OP wants, then she should be able to ask for it. The actual meaningfulness of the data is up to her.

I don't have any dc in the "fully launched" category. I just know that for myself and my dh's family, it would be impossible to provide a simple number and age for this poll.

Well, OK, thanks for sharing but do I need to offer a reason for the poll now?

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes, family helps.  I'm not judging anyone.   I am just curious who has launched a fully independent adult.   That's it!  My dd is no where near ready and won't be for some time.  I'm just gathering info from people to learn how likely it is for a ya to "think"  they can actually be self-sufficient and execute that plan 100%.  Does that make sense?

 

 

 

With those parameters I would say that DS24 is 100% fully launched, and has been for at least a year. As I posted earlier, we are letting him use one of our vehicles. But he could have easily afforded to buy one of his own. (There's a bit more to the story--he knew he would be going to California to work for six months and that his employer would provide him with a vehicle while there. He didn't want to be making payments on a vehicle back here that was sitting unused for six months. And we didn't need the use of our vehicle for that time period. So really--letting him use one of our cars was just a convenience thing for all of us, not because he couldn't afford one himself.)

[Scarlett]

28 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

This is so extremely difficult that literally the only way to qualify is to either supply proof they were a state foster child at graduation or supply proof that parents are dead or otherwise incapacitated.  If you can’t check those boxes, you don’t qualify.  The schools won’t even discuss it with you.  Call them.  Try it.  Please prove me wrong.  I don’t know anyone that delights in being wrong more than me.  I have personally tried to help at least 2 children that aren’t mine do this.  In 2 different states.  I know other people who have seen young adults screwed over by parents with this attitude as well. And yes, I view it as screwed over when an adult can’t even fill out FAFSA because their parents think it will build character to withhold any and all assistance.

ETA:  I think it should be illegal to require an adult have the financial information of another adult to qualify for an education or training or medical care. Not because I don’t think family should help, but because I know too many that can’t or won’t.

I agree!!!!  Just blows my mind that the system is set up this way.  I always, always always think of 'Love Story', when this topic comes up.  When his wealthy parents cut him off he tried to get aid and was turned down flat.  I remember thinking that could not possibly be realistic....but it sure is.

[Murphy101]

Just now, sheryl said:

Yes, family helps.  I'm not judging anyone.   I am just curious who has launched a fully independent adult.   That's it!  My dd is no where near ready and won't be for some time. I'm just gathering info from people to learn how likely it is for a ya to "think"  they can actually be self-sufficient and execute that plan 100%.  Does that make sense

Ah-ha!!! THAT is an entirely different question!! 

Alright. The answer is 100% of teens think they can be 100% independent by 25. God bless their naive hearts and inflated egos and independent streaks.

One of the things that makes these ages so hard to parent is the constant foxtrot dance that parents and older children do with each other to support without hindering, to help while still gaining experience. And most of the kids think they shouldn’t need help from anyone. They should just know, just be able to manage it.   No one else is calling home or whatever. Except most of those other kids ARE, they just don’t discuss it. Or worse they aren’t and a few months later we see them in dire straits. So they do not ask as quickly as they should to be honest. I have had this talk hundreds of times the last 15ish years. (And golly that makes me feel old to type that!)  Thankfully I have a relationship where they will call and let us guide and help. I sure can’t give money so this is basicly the only help I can give. 
 

Surely I cannot be the only one here who looks back in my early adult years and thinks “why the hell didn’t anyone tell me it didn’t have to be that way?!” I didn’t know any better and I didn’t have anyone to tell me otherwise. And there’s a lot of shame in not being financially independent for adults.  There’s a reason it’s considered impolite to discuss money matters, but it’s not a good reason imnsho. Yes there’s the internet now but that’s worse, not better. It’s very overwhelming to sift what’s valuable from the internet and the determination is in large part based on having enough good experience to base discernment. Something most young people don’t have. 

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Farrar is being perfectly polite in trying to explain that fully independent has little to do with financial situation.

By your definition of not having any financial needs provide by an outside source - most of the sham on here don’t qualify as independent and neither do many elderly. I can make it easy for you. Almost none of any age are independent by your definition.  Heck the only people I know who aren’t getting help from family are people getting help from the state.  I know some wealthy families who are not getting help from anyone once they hit 40ish, but they readily admit they had lots of help both family and state to get to that point and now they help a lot of other people.  And financial discussion of independence just doesn’t exist in most upper classes.  That’s why I say it is a class question, which should not be insulting. 

Well, my association is with people of all status.  And, I know a few young adults who are "independent". It doesn't mean it's the norm.  There's no right or wrong answer here.  A statement was made I was being negative.    Only on the wtm!  Hmm.  It's a poll and one can read in to it to "incite" or not.  My interest is in those people who don't mind sharing with me their experiences.  Great now the thread has been hijacked.  Quite a sad commentary for a homeschooling community.  You all are welcome to shout out your opinions but you've done that now so I'm going back to learning what others have to say about their answers - if anyone else cares to do that now.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

Ah-ha!!! THAT is an entirely different question!! 

Alright. The answer is 100% of teens think they can be 100% independent by 25. God bless their naive hearts and inflated egos and independent streaks.

One of the things that makes these ages so hard to parent is the constant foxtrot dance that parents and older children do with each other to support without hindering, to help while still gaining experience. And most of the kids think they shouldn’t need help from anyone. They should just know, just be able to manage it.   No one else is calling home or whatever. Except most of those other kids ARE, they just don’t discuss it. Or worse they aren’t and a few months later we see them in dire straits. So they do not ask as quickly as they should to be honest. I have had this talk hundreds of times the last 15ish years. (And golly that makes me feel old to type that!)  Thankfully I have a relationship where they will call and let us guide and help. I sure can’t give money so this is basicly the only help I can give. 
 

Surely I cannot be the only one here who looks back in my early adult years and thinks “why the hell didn’t anyone tell me it didn’t have to be that way?!” I didn’t know any better and I didn’t have anyone to tell me otherwise. And there’s a lot of shame in not being financially independent for adults.  There’s a reason it’s considered impolite to discuss money matters, but it’s not a good reason imnsho. Yes there’s the internet now but that’s worse, not better. It’s very overwhelming to sift what’s valuable from the internet and the determination is in large part based on having enough good experience to base discernment. Something most young people don’t have. 

My XH and I were launched when we married at age 18 and 19.  His parents cut him off completely.  We both had jobs and worked hard.  Affordable health insurance was a thing then....but other than the occasional forage into a relatives freezer for maybe some veggies or deer meat....yeah we were independent.  My mom was a new school teacher, struggling to pay her own bills on like 12K a year.  (1983). Things are some different now, but also my life is different than my mom's life and I have the means to help my son a little.  So I do.  I pay his phone and his tolls.  HIs dad pays his health insurance, car insurance and gives him a small allowance.  And I put a bit of money in his account every once in a while.  Dh does the same for dss23  who is really struggling financially.  

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, katilac said:

This is a tough comparison to begin with, because it's hardly likely that Warren Buffett's offspring would have trouble finding a well-paying job, lol. In addition to that, Buffett's statements often get interpreted to mean that he does not/did not help his grown kids financially, when that is not the case. 

The clearest statement he has made is that his kids won't inherit the bulk of his fortune. That does not mean no inheritance or no monetary help; each of them has a two billion dollar trust. When the 1% say that they aren't leaving 'much' of their money to their kids, it has an entirely different meaning, lol. Bill Gates has remarked about leaving his kids a 'miniscule' portion of his estate, but a miniscule portion of $81 billion is hardly a miniscule amount of money. One percent would still be $810 million dollars.

This thread is not to defend WB. And, I agree, his family would not/will not be left out in the cold.  A simple statement of part of an interview I heard.  I stand by my story of what he said but it's been awhile so I could have it twisted but I'm not sure as I thought at the time how I respected such a wealthy man to teach another lesson of hard work vs hand out.  I think he referred to a niece.  In any event, whether I'm correct or not re: W B, this thread is about the poll and not this man.

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, hornblower said:

I think this doesn't have to do with money or relative wealth but with a worldview about what the fundamental unit of society is. US culture pushes individual independence. Other cultures push the family unit. It would never occur to some people to not pay for many of their adult children's things etc. I guess it's sort of an obligation.... but that doesn't seem quite right. It's more of a sense of us being a unit.  

I think in your strict definition, I'm not independent of my FOO. 

I don't think there's a right or wrong way about this. It's just different approaches to life and family and finances. 

  

I agree.  Well said!  I'm not bashing one way or the other.  I personally think kids 18 and above are pushed out too soon, in many instances.   But, this thread is "not" about my opinion, preference or whatnot.  It's about learning how y'all do it.  I've made it clear time and again there is no right or wrong here. 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

My parents find all kinds of ways to slip me money.  I mean, I never depend on it, but I do know I have them in my corner should times get rough. I went to the store for them and the bill was $31.  My dad gave me a $50.  Things like that.  I do  try to treat them when I can.....but they obviously have more than I do financially and are happy to help or treat. 

Again, I'm not talking about gifts.  I think it's great that parents "help" their kids pay for insurance or phone bill, etc.  There's been an assumption I believe I'm trying to kick dd out and not support her.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  You didn't infer this - just the tone of how the entire thread went south at a certain point in the replies.   My parents gave me $25 here or there, but dh and I were fully independent with paying for everything when we married at 23.  The day to day/routine expenses.  Not gifts. 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Financial obligation is a tricky thing.

In theory 18 is an adult and we owe them nothing legally. But in practice there are heavy penalties for the children of parent who do that. 

For example, they can’t go to college or trade school bc their financial contribution is based on their parent income until they are 25.

Usually if they want a car or apartment they are going to need a loan and it is not unusual to need a co-signer unless they have been at their place of employment at least a year and have a lot to put down. In my area you can’t live on your own without a car.  In a much larger city you might be able to walk or bus but the rent is exponentially higher. 

Warren Buffet has helped his grown kids and grandchildren a tonne.  All of them live very comfortable lives, though they do so in a mostly quiet manner similar to the example warren and his wife have set.

Now this I agree with.  I didn't say it would be possible for 18-23 year olds to do do anything.  I'm just wondering if anyone has kids out there who have succeeded in this area.  

RE: WB - I'm certain he's helped but I'm only relaying what I heard him say in an interview.  

[ashfern]

We moved this summer and my eldest, at 19, didn't want to move with us. He has a job that he loves and wanted to stay in the area. I think the only thing we still pay for is his medical insurance. He opted not to go to college. He works full time and has a youtube channel. His roommate also works two jobs.

[Murphy101]

When I was 19 dh and I got married.  Right before that I moved out. I was 100% on my own prior to that. I paid rent to dad and received nothing from my parents. And dh and I received little to nothing once married. Frankly I think it was a detriment to us for the rest of our lives but that’s how our parents were and we had no control over that.

I see no benefit to that expectation of my kids so I’ll help as I can, if I can at all. 

All my children expect and desire and try to be 100% financially independent at high school graduation. It’s an unrealistic expectation before 25/30 imo. 

[Joker]

Honestly, OP, I feel you are the one reading into things here. I'm a bit baffled. I don't think anyone is being harsh with you or thinking you are bashing one way or the other.

I saw many, myself included, just trying to figure out your definition of fully launched / fully independent as not everyone agrees to what that is. You seem to think the definition is clear but it isn't.

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, The Accidental Coach said:

Neither of mine could be considered fully launched even though one is married and has her own home.  She has needed financial support almost every month due to medical needs. She was diagnosed with cancer about 6 months ago. In order for them to make ends meet, DH and I have helped pay some of their bills and purchase incidentals.

DS just finished his final college semester and moved back home. He wants to write a book and DH and I have agreed to help support him for a while. It actually helps us a bit since DH and I travel with our jobs and we have been paying someone to watch the house and dog while we are gone.

Thank you.  I hope all goes well for your dd!  

As I stated a few times, there is no right or wrong.  Each family is different and I'm just learning how folks do it.  No finger pointing.  I'm simply learning.  

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Gates has stated he was willing to leave his kids maybe $10M. (with what inflation has been like since he said that, it might be more like $20M)  that's it.  significantly smaller than the 1% you mention Buffett leaving his kids.  Gates has said,  enough to do what they want, not enough to do "nothing".  still more than many, but you'll never see his kids on the rich kids of Instagram.

 

I don't understand your point.  I never said 1%.  ???????????

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, Joker said:

Honestly, OP, I feel you are the one reading into things here. I'm a bit baffled. I don't think anyone is being harsh with you or thinking you are bashing one way or the other.

I saw many, myself included, just trying to figure out your definition of fully launched / fully independent as not everyone agrees to what that is. You seem to think the definition is clear but it isn't.

Yes.  This. 

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Again, I'm not talking about gifts.  I think it's great that parents "help" their kids pay for insurance or phone bill, etc.  There's been an assumption I believe I'm trying to kick dd out and not support her.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  You didn't infer this - just the tone of how the entire thread went south at a certain point in the replies.   My parents gave me $25 here or there, but dh and I were fully independent with paying for everything when we married at 23.  The day to day/routine expenses.  Not gifts. 

Oh I long moved on from what you were asking....LOL....as we so often do we are off down rabbit trails.

[Murphy101]

Also. Most people don’t discuss finances.  I would not presume that a working college grad adult is not getting help from family. Most are and it’s just not discussed. I mean how often does someone ask you how much you bills are and if you are the one paying them? Me - never. And even though a parent or adult child might say they are completely financially independent, as this thread illustrates, heck most of US wouldn’t qualify by that strict a definition of financial independence. 
 

But again.  It seems that’s not even your real question. If your question is whether most teens think they will be financially independent by 25, the answer is yes. And if you ask most 25 yr olds, regardless of how much help they are getting from family, they will likely say they are financially independent. All of my kids over 17 would say they are financially independent.  If you asked me, I’d say they are independent as well. Even though as I stated previously, all their circumstances are very different. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Murphy101

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Also. Most people don’t discuss finances.  I would not presume that a working college grad adult is not getting help from family. Most are and it’s just not discussed. I mean how often does someone ask you how much you bills are and if you are the one paying them? Me - never. And even though a parent or adult child might say they are completely financially independent, as this thread illustrates, heck most of US wouldn’t qualify by that strict a definition of financial independence. 
 

But again.  It seems that’s not even your real question. If your question is whether most teens think they will be financially independent by 25, the answer is yes. And if you ask most 25 yr olds, regardless of how much help they are getting from family, they will likely say they are financially independent. All of my kids over 17 would say they are financially independent.  If you asked me, I’d say they are independent as well. Even though as I stated previously, all their circumstances are very different. 

I think that is why she is asking here.  

[Murphy101]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I think that is why she is asking here.  

Right.  😊

My point was that even if you ask someone flat out - they will likely say they are but not be by her definition. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

which probably is why the guy (graduated Princeton?) shot daddy when daddy cut his allowance.  Daddy was tired of him doing "nothing", after paying for him to develop the skills to get a good job. Mom is testifying against him - though she still loves her son.

Who are you talking about here? 

41 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes, family helps.  I'm not judging anyone.   I am just curious who has launched a fully independent adult.   That's it!  My dd is no where near ready and won't be for some time.  I'm just gathering info from people to learn how likely it is for a ya to "think"  they can actually be self-sufficient and execute that plan 100%.  Does that make sense?

I think thoughts about independent adults (in the states) have changed tremendously in just a generation or so. For example, all three of my siblings were fully independent while still teens: 18, 18, and 19. At least two of them had no insurance, and it was common for young people to not have insurance for a good while after leaving their family home. Nobody thought too much of it then, whereas a lot of parents these days, including me, cannot imagine their teenager not having insurance or being able to access medical care. I would do everything in my power to help insure my kids. If they could not be on our family plan, I would pay quite a bit of money to make it happen (as much money as I was able to). A lot of middle-class people can and do have their kids on the family insurance plan until their mid-20s, but that wasn't possible a generation ago and it's a huge part of a secure life. Young adult coverage didn't start until 2010 or so, a bare decade ago! 

So, just an interesting tangent. Not too many people today think young adults on their family's health plan prevents them from being launched, but it's only been an option for ten years.  

9 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I don't understand your point.  I never said 1%.  ???????????

I think she was responding to me. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 if you're living with your parents - yeah, it's going to be hard to prove they're not helping you financially - even if they're not paying tuition.  if you live on your own, and are paying your bills - it's much easier.   (and awards are higher.)

I really don't think it is, though, that was my point. Living on your own does not meet the criteria. Neither does: supporting yourself, parents refusing to provide info, or parents refusing to contribute. My interpretation matches Murphy101's - the situation must be much more extreme than living on your own and paying all of your own bills. 

https://www.simpletuition.com/financial-aid/independent-or-dependent-student-status/

[Melissa in Australia]

Once again I am so so glad I live in Australia and not USA. We don't have to worry about health insurance or huge medical bills. It makes life easier at all ages, especially when in your late teens/early twenties.

[Guest]

Haven't launched anyone yet, but my DH and I both graduated debt free and had graduate stipends-and my parents still ended up gifting us several thousand dollars when, after grad school, and having moved for decent jobs, we had to replace DH's car and buy me one before we had had a chance to build up significant savings. We've been able to be independent since then, but part of the reason why we are in as good of a position as we are is that DH has a salary set in a higher COL area, but we live in a lower COL area, and his grandfather died and left him enough money to pay off our house note. 

My brother is still on my parents' car insurance, and they own the car he drives. (Specifically, when my parents get a new car, he gets the old one, and their upgrades are often timed based on when the car he drives needs major repairs that are not worth doing). They also help out occasionally at other times, via gifts or just as needed.  He is a lawyer for a non-profit, grant funded advocacy agency in a high COL area, his wife is considered permanently disabled, and he has heavy student loans for law school.  

[Farrar]

This thread just got really weird. I have no idea why questioning the OP’s vague definitions aren’t allowed. I know tone doesn’t convey well online but I genuinely don’t know the difference between a gift and support. Or what fully independent really means or whether it’s a good or bad thing to strive for with new adults. These are real questions. I’m not the only one who has them. They are not an attack. I’m not sure why what I think are basic questions have drawn the OP’s ire.

[Farrar]

15 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Once again I am so so glad I live in Australia and not USA. We don't have to worry about health insurance or huge medical bills. It makes life easier at all ages, especially when in your late teens/early twenties.

Yes, this occurred to me repeatedly in this thread. No other nation as wealthy as ours has parents grappling with these issues.

[EmseB]

Not launched any of my own yet, but I was fully independent from my parents at barely 18 because I joined the military. I know a lot of people would say that means I wasn't fully independent because the military "took care" of me, but I think of it as I opted for the sucky job + full benefits instead of staying home and having my parents pay for CC while also having to work a sucky job.

Edited December 19, 2019 by EmseB

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

I really don't think it is, though, that was my point. Living on your own does not meet the criteria. Neither does: supporting yourself, parents refusing to provide info, or parents refusing to contribute. My interpretation matches Murphy101's - the situation must be much more extreme than living on your own and paying all of your own bills. 

https://www.simpletuition.com/financial-aid/independent-or-dependent-student-status/

in my experience with adult college students,  it has.

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

It’s not really that tough if you’re maintaining your own residence and work, even underage-ish.

I admit I’m having a hard time considering some of these adult children independent or launched if they need to live with mom and dad or have any significant portion of their lives subsidized by them.  Like, I won’t ever actually consider my little guy independent if he is living under our roof.  He may have some independence and freedoms, but he is a *dependent* by the strict definition.

Kind of mind boggling. I mean, it’s not bad to want to assist your children, but if they can’t swim without it the level of self sufficiency is something I question as a parent.  It’s not an issue, but I’m not sure it fits the definition, really.  

I agree - if they're not paying their own room and board (and every other basic themselves), they're not launched.  which is why I only consider my daughters "launched".  re: fully self-supporting.  (if 2dd worked full-time, she'd make more than her dh.  she works one day a week as she's primary with baby. so even though she's married, I consider *her* self-supporting, not reliant on her dh for income.)

My sons have degrees, one is working and one is still a full-time student (he gets less aid living with family than if he was living on his own), but they're not paying their room and board.  (they pay everything else. car payments, insurance, phone, health, etc. etc.) - so, they're not "there" yet.  I also expect kids who are through college, working, living with family - to be saving money for a down payment on a house.

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Once again I am so so glad I live in Australia and not USA. We don't have to worry about health insurance or huge medical bills. It makes life easier at all ages, especially when in your late teens/early twenties.

I’d move in a nano second to Canada or Australia if they’d let my family have citizenship. Take 50% of our paychecks in taxes. We’d still come out ahead of almost anywhere here and get better education and not have to worry about having to ration insulin again.

53 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This thread just got really weird. I have no idea why questioning the OP’s vague definitions aren’t allowed. I know tone doesn’t convey well online but I genuinely don’t know the difference between a gift and support. Or what fully independent really means or whether it’s a good or bad thing to strive for with new adults. These are real questions. I’m not the only one who has them. They are not an attack. I’m not sure why what I think are basic questions have drawn the OP’s ire.

 

I don’t get it either. 🤷‍♀️

39 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

It’s not really that tough if you’re maintaining your own residence and work, even underage-ish.

I admit I’m having a hard time considering some of these adult children independent or launched if they need to live with mom and dad or have any significant portion of their lives subsidized by them.  Like, I won’t ever actually consider my little guy independent if he is living under our roof.  He may have some independence and freedoms, but he is a *dependent* by the strict definition.

Kind of mind boggling. I mean, it’s not bad to want to assist your children, but if they can’t swim without it the level of self sufficiency is something I question as a parent.  It’s not an issue, but I’m not sure it fits the definition, really.  

It is that tough.  Living on your own for several years and having a job is not enough to qualify. 

Again. That’s my point. Most people of any age are not independent by this definition. I am dependent on my husband. His grandma getting Medicare/Medicaid is dependent on the state. 

18 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

in my experience with adult college students,  it has.

Really? I’d love to hear the details of that bc I have never met anyone that was true for and I know several young adult friends of my kids who would desperately like to know how that worked. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

12 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

In terms of college aid and FAFSA, being declared an independent student is difficult.  For me, it was simple...........I had a baby lol.  Not the path I would recommend for my own kids.  But for my DD23, who was not having a baby, not getting married, and not going into the military, no, she was still not able to get herself declared independent.  She was living in her own apartment, paying her rent, buying her own groceries, covering all her own car expenses  (even after her BF at the time totaled her car) and paying her own cell phone and all sorts of other expenses.  The only expenses we were covering was most of her medical.......and even then, we were on a family plan so in terms of our health insurance costs, that didn't change when we removed her.  So for TAX purposes, she was no longer our dependent. But to fill out the FAFSA, she was still considered dependent.  In her case, her tuition was covered by a state scholarship so it wasn't like that mattered really.  But for many others, that really does matter.  

Yeah.  I wouldn’t recommend getting pregnant to get college financial aid either.  There’s for sure not any profit to that plan.  LOL

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

I don't understand your point.  I never said 1%.  ???????????

4 hours ago, katilac said:

This is a tough comparison to begin with, because it's hardly likely that Warren Buffett's offspring would have trouble finding a well-paying job, lol. In addition to that, Buffett's statements often get interpreted to mean that he does not/did not help his grown kids financially, when that is not the case. 

The clearest statement he has made is that his kids won't inherit the bulk of his fortune. That does not mean no inheritance or no monetary help; each of them has a two billion dollar trust. When the 1% say that they aren't leaving 'much' of their money to their kids, it has an entirely different meaning, lol. Bill Gates has remarked about leaving his kids a 'miniscule' portion of his estate, but a miniscule portion of $81 billion is hardly a miniscule amount of money. One percent would still be $810 million dollars./////////

Katilac threw out a 1%.

[Farrar]

40 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

IMO, support is ongoing, and necessary for the adult child to cover their basics.  I tend to think of it this way...if we pass away, will my 23 yr old be thrown into a situation where she isn't able to pay her bills and struggles to make her rent or buy her groceries each month unless there's some major inheritance?  If the answer is yes, then I am supporting her.  If the answer is no, then I am not supporting her, regardless of how she uses the $100 that she will be getting this Christmas.  I do however know someone who is in that situation.  

 

 

I mean, Christmas and birthdays are every year though - they're regular, periodic gifts. And the sort of gifts that I know about and certainly that I experienced as a young adult were not $100. A hundred bucks is a single grocery run or a fun outing or... I dunno, your Netflix for much of the year. It's not enough to begin to cover rent. I'm talking about families that regularly gift amounts that would cover rent or more.

I also just think it's not a clear thing. Like, could dh and I have gotten by? Absolutely. But then we would have less wealth today because wealth breeds. So by preserving our ability to not take on as much debt, that helped. The same is true of inheritance though... my grandparents dying and then dh's grandparents dying both led to tidy checks for us. Again, wealth breeds wealth. Would we have been okay without that? Again, we would have figured it out. But I don't think it's straightforward.