Help with science? Please? (Senior year)

[JoJosMom]

DD is a rising senior. She is college bound and is likely to major in math (and also wants to continue studying Russian). We are most realistically targeting honors colleges at state universities (ones with good National Merit/merit aid), but she does want to apply to a couple of very selective schools. She has completed: 9^th grade, Derek Owens Honors Physics; 10^th grade, Conceptual Chemistry, and; 11^th grade, FundaFunda Biology (honors.)

Part of me would like to branch out and do something different and fun, say two semester-long classes, like Forensics, Astronomy, Geology, or <<insert suggestion here.>>

However, because of the desire to apply to a couple of very selective schools, I am afraid that what is necessary is a fourth year of a traditional lab science. If we choose this path, we are pretty much limited to physics, as that’s the only traditional science that she really enjoyed. If she does this, it MUST be outsourced; there’s no way for me to keep up.

Question 1: Is pursuing the fun path a realistic option?

Question 2: If we go with physics, can a calculus-based physics class be taken concurrently with calculus? (DD will be taking AoPS Calculus this year.)

Thank you for any help/suggestions/insight, on the questions above, or anything related, however tangentially. I’m feeling rather overwhelmed at this point.

[Roadrunner]

I am no help, but saw you Calculus comment. Just a warning that one proof in AOPS calculus accounts for 64% of the grade. It’s beyond frustrating and somewhat unfair. 

[Arcadia]

I have no idea obviously about your Question 1.

For your Question 2, my DS13 has passed AP Physics C (both exams, PAH Jeff Lanctot) before taking a calculus class. It wasn’t fun self studying whatever was needed (which wasn’t much) with some adhoc explanation from DS14. So not fun but definitely doable. He also cleared the SAT Physics subject test before starting AP Physics C. However he loves Physics more than Maths and is currently aiming for school of engineering.

[Roadrunner]

I know Astronomy is a lab science at our CC and not a fluff course at all. That could be an option and will maybe tie into physics? 

I wish I knew how colleges view any of this. I will say that most kids admitted to UCLA and UCB locally didn’t bother with even a single subject test. 

[8filltheheart]

I don't know about extremely selective schools, but for your typical honors college public U, I think a fun course is absolutely plausible, if even necessary.  My dd who is a Top Scholar at USColumbia's 4th science was a home-brewed ecology course where she read books about different ecosystems, watched documentaries, and researched environmental impacts on various ecosystems.  It was her favorite science course (and no textbook/lab component involved.)  My current 12th grader is not taking a 4th science this yr.  The U she is applying to only requires 3, so she isn't planning on a 4th.

Astronomy, geology, ecology, anatomy &physiology,  marine biology, botany, etc......those are all valid science fields.  Just bc ps define their curriculum in terms of only a handful does not negate the other fields.

As a complete aside, my dd just got home from the StarTalk Russian program at CSUN. She is really pleased with the progress her Russian made this summer.  It wasn't study abroad, but it was fully funded and she thinks her Russian improved to the same level as if she had been abroad b/c the program was that good and she roomed with a heritage speaker.   (Just something for her to keep in mind for the future.  Applicants have to be at least 18.  I'm not sure if they have to apply during college, though.)

[8filltheheart]

https://www.csun.edu/humanities/startalk  Oops, realized I forgot the link!

[JoJosMom]

10 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I don't know about extremely selective schools, but for your typical honors college public U, I think a fun course is absolutely plausible, if even necessary.  My dd who is a Top Scholar at USColumbia's 4th science was a home-brewed ecology course where she read books about different ecosystems, watched documentaries, and researched environmental impacts on various ecosystems.  It was her favorite science course (and no textbook/lab component involved.)  My current 12th grader is not taking a 4th science this yr.  The U she is applying to only requires 3, so she isn't planning on a 4th.

Astronomy, geology, ecology, anatomy &physiology,  marine biology, botany, etc......those are all valid science fields.  Just bc ps define their curriculum in terms of only a handful does not negate the other fields.

As a complete aside, my dd just got home from the StarTalk Russian program at CSUN. She is really pleased with the progress her Russian made this summer.  It wasn't study abroad, but it was fully funded and she thinks her Russian improved to the same level as if she had been abroad b/c the program was that good and she roomed with a heritage speaker.   (Just something for her to keep in mind for the future.  Applicants have to be at least 18.  I'm not sure if they have to apply during college, though.)

 

Thanks, 8. She'll definitely be taking science; I just don't know if I should/need to have her do a calc-based physics in the (veryvery) remote chance that she gets into SuperSelectiveU, you know what I mean? Your approach sounds much better, though.

And thank you VERY much for the StarTalk info (what is CSUN?). We were at Arizona State in the spring and they lobbied her to join (I think they were having trouble filling slots.) She got into math camp, which was her first priority, but she plans on a period of intensive Russian study in the future.

[JoJosMom]

5 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

https://www.csun.edu/humanities/startalk  Oops, realized I forgot the link!

 

Ooo! Northridge sounds much more pleasant than Tempe in the summer!😳

[kokotg]

At the university where my son did dual enrollment, calc was listed as a co-requisite for calc based physics, BUT they wouldn't let him take it the year he was taking calculus because he was doing it at home as opposed to at a public school or DE. They required an AP score before they'd let him enroll. 

[Frances]

Although my son ended up not doing it, his advisor at the LAC where he took classes in high school said it would be fine to take calculus and physics based calculus at the same time. As someone who took lots of statistics courses in grad school while missing different math prerequisites, I found that usually the same techniques/concepts occurred over and over, so once I mastered those for a particular class, the missing math wasn’t an issue anymore.

I don’t have any advice on the fun science question, as my son was science focused. Good luck!

[Brigid in NC]

JoJosMom, did your daughter enjoy her Biology class? If so, what about an Anatomy class? I’ll put in a plug for Irene Paine’s Anatomy & Phisiology class through Blue Tent. It’s a different type of lab science that is designed for juniors and seniors. It is not as lab-report oriented, but is more investigative and “case study” oriented.

[EKS]

At my son's (well regarded) high school, precalculus is the prerequisite for AP Physics C and calculus is a corequisite.  My son (who did well on the exam) said that there was very little calculus involved in the course (which gives me hives, but that's another issue).

That said, the local CC won't allow students to enroll in their calculus-based physics sequence until they have passed Calculus III (but they give credit for a 3 on the AP exam).

[madteaparty]

13 hours ago, JoJosMom said:

 

Thanks, 8. She'll definitely be taking science; I just don't know if I should/need to have her do a calc-based physics in the (veryvery) remote chance that she gets into SuperSelectiveU, you know what I mean? Your approach sounds much better, though.

And thank you VERY much for the StarTalk info (what is CSUN?). We were at Arizona State in the spring and they lobbied her to join (I think they were having trouble filling slots.) She got into math camp, which was her first priority, but she plans on a period of intensive Russian study in the future.

There’s also NSLI-Y.  Several students on the program have already graduated high school (so, summer before college). 

No advice on science but am following along as for us, there’s lots of interesting local interest type classes that could take one semester and would free up time for the other stuff. 

Edited July 20, 2019 by madteaparty

[alewife]

16 hours ago, JoJosMom said:

(snip)

Part of me would like to branch out and do something different and fun, say two semester-long classes, like Forensics, Astronomy, Geology, or <<insert suggestion here.>

 

Calculus based physics is broken up into two separate AP classes - Mechanics and Electricity & Magnetism.  One option would be to take a fun science first semester and then take AP Physics C Mechanics the second semester.  The advantage of this option is that your daughter would have had the necessary calculus by the time the course starts.    

[Kareni]

My daughter did the following sciences while in high school.

9th: Physical Science
10th: Chemistry (Lab)
11th: G 101: Earth's Dynamic Interior (Lab)
11th: G 102 Earth's Dynamic Surface (Lab)
11th: G 146: Rocks and Minerals (Lab)
12th: ENVS 181: Terrestrial Science (Lab)

We allowed her to study the sciences that interested her at the community college in 11th and 12th grades (namely Geology and Environmental Science) rather than mandating that she study the more traditional Biology in which she had no interest.

Note that she took neither Biology nor Physics.

My daughter applied to ten colleges and was accepted by eight and wait listed by a ninth.  She ended up attending a fairly selective liberal arts college.  None of those ten colleges specifically required Biology, Chemistry, and Physics though all required at least two or three years of science.  Bear in mind that she went on to major in Latin rather than the hard sciences. (She did minor in Geology.)

Regards,
Kareni

[2_girls_mommy]

On 7/27/2019 at 10:49 PM, Kareni said:

My daughter did the following sciences while in high school.

9th: Physical Science
10th: Chemistry (Lab)
11th: G 101: Earth's Dynamic Interior (Lab)
11th: G 102 Earth's Dynamic Surface (Lab)
11th: G 146: Rocks and Minerals (Lab)
12th: ENVS 181: Terrestrial Science (Lab)

We allowed her to study the sciences that interested her at the community college in 11th and 12th grades (namely Geology and Environmental Science) rather than mandating that she study the more traditional Biology in which she had no interest.

Note that she took neither Biology nor Physics.

My daughter applied to ten colleges and was accepted by eight and wait listed by a ninth.  She ended up attending a fairly selective liberal arts college.  None of those ten colleges specifically required Biology, Chemistry, and Physics though all required at least two or three years of science.  Bear in mind that she went on to major in Latin rather than the hard sciences. (She did minor in Geology.)

Regards,
Kareni

This comforting to me. Mine has opted not to take a 5th science in 12th grade. She did biology in 8th, chemistry in 9th, anatomy and physiology in 10th, astronomy in 11th, and is choosing not to do physics. She is planning on majoring in Letters which requires 4years of Spanish and 4 years of Spanish with possible minor or double major in english in English, so has decided not to go further in science. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by 2_girls_mommy

[katilac]

My youngest did geology senior year and quite enjoyed it. https://smile.amazon.com/Visualizing-Geology-Barbara-W-Murck/dp/0470419474/ref=sr_1_1?crid=HVCCXGXXZ0CH&keywords=visualizing+geology+2nd&qid=1564450994&s=gateway&sprefix=visualizing+geo%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-1

As long as she has a challenging overall senior schedule, I think she's fine with a different science. Geology, astronomy, and forensic science are not inherently easy classes; you can certainly do something different to a rigorous level. I'd pick the science that sounds most interesting, find a worthy text, and come up with a quick response just in case it comes up in an interview. 

[chiguirre]

On 7/19/2019 at 1:37 PM, JoJosMom said:

Question 1: Is pursuing the fun path a realistic option?

 

Question 2: If we go with physics, can a calculus-based physics class be taken concurrently with calculus? (DD will be taking AoPS Calculus this year.)

 

Thank you for any help/suggestions/insight, on the questions above, or anything related, however tangentially. I’m feeling rather overwhelmed at this point.

 

At our local CC, Calc based physics requires a semester of Calc as a prerequisite.

My dd is possibly going to study applied math. I took a look at which sciences are acceptable at her top two choices. One requires one semester of calc based physics and one semester of either oceanography or physics modelling plus the two course sequence that can be any science in their College of Science including astronomy which is listed as physics. The other (and preferred school) just requires that you fulfill the basic science requirement with major level classes and includes geology as well as the basic sciences. 

In the end, her choice was dictated by the Honors college schedule at her CC. The easiest class to combine with her Calc I class that was offered in an honors section was Physical Geology so that's what she's taking. She's really pleased that she wasn't forced to take Bio again. My dd is not very science oriented, she's looking at applied math with a concentration in either actuarial science, finance or econ. Geology has the bonus of cool field trips. It's what I took as one of my science distributionals and I loved that class, so I hope that she'll find it as interesting as I did. I still am a geology geek on a general interest level.

[Homeschoolmom3]

From what I've been told and have experienced they don't care so much as long as you have 4 yrs. of science. My son took Astronomy one year and studied on his own and then took the clep at the end of the year.  This was his fun class he wanted to do.  He also dual enrolled his last year (senior year) taking Chemistry at the college.  So he technically took 2 yrs. in high school but they don't care since he took what they are mainly looking for is some earth science, biology, chemistry and physics.  Let her have her choice...someone else mentioned Anatomy I loved that as a student!  🙂

[JoJosMom]

On 7/19/2019 at 5:24 PM, Brigid in NC said:

JoJosMom, did your daughter enjoy her Biology class? If so, what about an Anatomy class? I’ll put in a plug for Irene Paine’s Anatomy & Phisiology class through Blue Tent. It’s a different type of lab science that is designed for juniors and seniors. It is not as lab-report oriented, but is more investigative and “case study” oriented.

 

The only science that she has enjoyed so far has been physics. Le sigh. I looooved biology.

On 7/30/2019 at 5:42 AM, chiguirre said:

At our local CC, Calc based physics requires a semester of Calc as a prerequisite.

My dd is possibly going to study applied math. I took a look at which sciences are acceptable at her top two choices. One requires one semester of calc based physics and one semester of either oceanography or physics modelling plus the two course sequence that can be any science in their College of Science including astronomy which is listed as physics. The other (and preferred school) just requires that you fulfill the basic science requirement with major level classes and includes geology as well as the basic sciences. 

In the end, her choice was dictated by the Honors college schedule at her CC. The easiest class to combine with her Calc I class that was offered in an honors section was Physical Geology so that's what she's taking. She's really pleased that she wasn't forced to take Bio again. My dd is not very science oriented, she's looking at applied math with a concentration in either actuarial science, finance or econ. Geology has the bonus of cool field trips. It's what I took as one of my science distributionals and I loved that class, so I hope that she'll find it as interesting as I did. I still am a geology geek on a general interest level.

 

Geology is my other love! Rotten child says no. 😋

The likelihood of getting into super selective is vanishingly small, and the ability of us to pay for it even smaller. Verdict: Forensics. (Which means that I'll be spending the next semester to a year critiquing the textbook [which I already have found wanting.] My near two decades as a prosecutor may prove to be a both a blessing and a curse. 🙄)

Thank you, all, for the help. It is truly appreciated.

Now if someone would come to my house and train me in diligence and efficiency...