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SeaConquest

IEP Meeting Next Week: Need Help Interpreting Testing in 2E Kid

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18 minutes ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

Extra book shelves!  yay!

The desk for the second couch is a great idea.  That little bar area just isn’t enough horizontal space!

 

So, I forgot that I took this video a week after we moved in. We moved in and then immediately went on a road trip wine tasting and to Joshua Tree, etc. Anyway, the place is a total disaster, and doesn't show the upgrades that we have done in the three years since, but it gives you more of an idea. I will switch it back to private eventually.

 

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Wow! Thanks for sharing that. In many ways it looks more comfortable and livable than our house.  I’m hoping I can get my mother to look as we’ve been trying to figure out how to manage multigenerational housing...

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On 4/2/2019 at 9:36 AM, Storygirl said:

Your son sounds like he has some ambitious goals. He is, by age, a fourth grader, but he wants to pass the tests needed to get into college very early, if I am reading correctly. On the one hand, I think that is admirable and awesome!! On the other hand, I think that forging ahead too quickly may create problems down the line. He wants to take college science classes, but can he write a college-level lab report, for example? I am not intending at all to throw cold water on plans. Just offering some things to think about, as you work toward figuring out what is best for him.

I can’t help on any of the testing or accommodations, but I wonder if you have any LACs nearby that allowing auditing classes? Our local one allows it for $50 per course, compared to the state schools that charge full tuition. It could be a no pressure way for him to get the challenge and stimulation he craves in science.

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On 4/3/2019 at 3:34 PM, SeaConquest said:

I am just going by what his current interests are. He says that he wants to be an astrogeneticist -- to study astrophysics and genetics -- with the ultimate goal of being an astronaut. He's always been in love with space, as most kids are, but he has followed that passion with hard work in math and science. We both know that odds of ever making it to space are incredibly long, but aside from my own naturally competitive personality (which I honestly do try to tone down with him when he's not interested in competition) I think that is why I feel like I have to prepare him.

But, this is what he says he wants. He may, of course, change his mind. He is 10! I just try to research the myriad opportunities that exist and give him options from which to choose. He decides what he studies. Like me, he sometimes bites off more than he can chew, gets overwhelmed, and then we scale back. I check in with him often because I know that he is compliant, so I really do want him to enjoy what he is doing. I don't want to hothouse him. We school in the morning three days per week, but are done most days by lunch. He goes to his charter school two days per week where he does nothing but pure enrichment (choir, tinkering, etc.). He has tons of outdoor time (we live at a campground and on our boat) and has no limits on screen time/video games. Perhaps I sound defensive, but despite my Scorpio intensity, I promise you that he really is getting to be a kid.   

Just in case it might help ease some anxiety, a graduate of my “Colleges that Change Lives” (but not even in the top 50 LACs) undergrad became an astronaut. And he was also a white male.

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So, I thought I would update:

We finally have a signed 504 plan. We settled on the following accommodations:

Setting:
Allow preferential seating in class to assist with focus
Student, Instructor
As needed

Lessons/Assignments:
Allow extended time and frequent breaks on assignments
EF, Instructor
As needed
Allow the use of computer to type assignments
EF, Instructor
As needed
Allow alternative way to provide responses on math assignments, rather than writing out responses
EF, Instructor
As needed
Shorten repetitive written assignments
Parent, Instructor
As needed
Break down assignments into smaller pieces with manageable deadlines
Student, Parent
As needed
Provide a copy of completed teacher’s or student’s notes.
Parent, Instructor
As needed
Allow the recording of lectures and the use of speech-to-text software
Student, Instructor
As needed
Allow use of graphic organizers and editing checklist on assignments
Parent, Instructor
As needed

Testing:
Allow extended time and frequent breaks on tests and quizzes
EF, Instructor
As needed
Allow the use of computer to type written portion of tests
EF, Instructor
As needed
Provide a quiet environment and/or allow the use of noise-canceling headphones for tests
Parent, Instructor
As needed

S received his PSAT 8/9 results yesterday and wow, it seems that the ADHD meds are really helping him to sustain his focus and (perhaps!) deal with his test anxiety (though, he said that he was not anxious for this). It was like a 3 hour exam, and was done without any accommodations. He received DYS-qualifying scores, which was a first for him. So, I am so happy that we were able to get him these evals and the meds. Also, I talked to his developmental ped at Kaiser a few weeks ago, and she really wants to explore more evals about the writing issues. She doesn't think the school did a very thorough job, so she put in an eval for OT to check things out. Anyway, just wanted to thank you all again for helping me through this process. ❤️ 

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On 4/5/2019 at 7:18 AM, PeterPan said:

Isn't that the point? We tend to be pretty straight shooters around here, and it doesn't do anyone any good to pussyfoot around and not acknowledge what's going on. It's the op's chance to deal with her own inner demons (or sprites or fairies or say something nicer) and ask for help with from a psychologist with that 2nd opinion, from a counselor for herself. We ALL have them, or at least I do, these areas that trip us up. I probably have 30, lol. Like I'm a really especially terribly imperfect person on this, so I'm always having to admit in front of professionals and to myself how *I* am a factor, either as a solution or as an aggravation. It's always me, because I'm the magic in the homeschooling. And wow I wish I were as magical as some moms in some areas. I think that can get a little unhealthy too, like comparing me as an individual to a composite uber-mom, that won't work. But still, it's really healthy for me to stop and ask where *I* have a part to play in whatever is most impacting ds. Like if our professionals are saying ds needs chores (discussion of the day, haha) and he's not doing chores (independent tasks vs. work in general, we do a ton of work in general), is that HIM or ME? 

I sort of missed the overall negative tone and in how many situations it's occurring for you till Pen made her post. I feel for you. I think Arcadia is right that you've got a mismatch and assumptions and it's making you stressed. Maybe you've already come to the other side of this and are seeing it now? It's always brave of us to admit things in public. :biggrin: It's really how you get help though, and the important thing is you want that and want it to go better. The past is the past and you'll work it out. 

At one point you kind of replied with some comments about how you're not stealing his childhood, and I SO agree. He seems to have a lovely life!!! And it sounds like your main problem is how do you help a kid who's highly gifted, who WANTS to participate in things that engage that gifted side, participate successfully when he's GOING TO have those kind of ADHD errors, going to fade out, going to be inefficient, going to have executive function deficits and immaturity... It's a really good question! And when you're asking that, you're finally asking the right question. It's not about blaming you or him. It's the disability that is the issue and how do we wrangle with the disability and what are healthy ways this can plan out?

I would make make multiple paths. I would make a WHOLE bunch of paths, like seriously. Like 5 or 6 or 8 or 10. And I would sit down with paper and go through pros and cons with him and let him pick a path he wants to try. And then if that path isn't good enough, you guys reassess and try a different path.

Like I could see the AOPS with accommodations as a path. I'm not sure it's a great path, because it seems really rat race to me. It seems to be ideal for kids who's processing speed can keep up. Those people are not educators running it, people who've taken psychology, people who worked in classrooms with hundreds of kids to deal with a variety of kids. You're dealing with geeks (yes? that was my impression, could be wrong) who know their stuff. So once you introduce a dc with disabilities, you're like hey expert math whiz could you also bother to become an expert in psychology and child development for a minute so you could work better with my ds? That's not what they were advertising to be, kwim? But it's a path, sure, try it.

I mentioned tutors. You could get a subject expert and work by skype whatever. I would lean HEAVILY toward this path. Some people, just by virtue of personality, are already like 80% of the way toward being able to work with a kid with disability. If the person has the right demeanor and skill set (patience, how they talk with kids, knowing how to motivate or correct without correcting, etc.), they could fit right off the bat. And you only need ONE person for that to be a success. With the IEP and going through a business or school, you're constantly advocating and changing. I would look for a person he won't max out soon for that option. Maybe the school should be paying for that as an intervention service, haha. They won't. My ds has academic goals in his IEP and they get serviced by an intervention specialist per the IEP. Can you imagine the IS appropriate to your ds? LOL I'm just laughing here. He won't have academic goals and won't need/want an IS. You're looking for a grad student in math, someone like that.

Hmm, other options? Um, online classes that are self-paced. Is Derek Owens self-paced? That would deal with the speed issues but could aggravate EF issues.

Having some kind of check-in person or support person. I don't know what that would look like for math. It's the NORM in humanities. Think about it. At the university he'll have access to academic services that would look over a paper he wrote for any class and give him feedback to get on track with the obvious structural basics, etc. There are online services that do this. Where dd goes, they use an online submission service she can use 24/7 rather than a student-run services lab. I think that's great and she likes it. Do they have that for math? Why not? I'll bet they do. 

You could stop doing testing. I'm just listing out 20 options. I'm not saying I have an opinion on that, just that it could be on the table. You know, like in 12 Angry Men where they run the cat up the flag pole and see what happens. When I'm doing this (you can tell I have to do it a lot because I'm in pickles a lot, lol), I go way out of the box if I can. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you actually put it out there, in print, like it was a real, legit option. It would be interesting to see what he would think and how he'd respond. It might be something that hadn't been on the table or that needed to be on the table before. Maybe the tests and contests were cool before and they're not now.

Situations and opportunities have to work for the WHOLE PERSON. I have this story I tell. I had heard of pro-life rallies, blah blah, in high school, and I told my mom I wanted to go to some. She's like NO WAY, COLLEGES WILL HEAR AND NOT WANT YOU!!! I'm like, are you for real?? Well if they don't want me for being pro-life, then I don't want them. And there's that sense about these contests and things too. If they're not set up to function well for a kid with ADHD who's GOING TO DO WHAT ADHD KIDS DO, then spit on 'em and move on. There's so much more to do on the planet. You could go to a Hoagies' Gifted psych for that 2nd opinion, get connected with a mentor (you only have like a zillion top of the line universities out there in CA, mercy) and move on. Just spit on 'em and move on. If they don't want you because you make mistakes, you don't want them. Why do you want to hang in an environment where any mistakes are death knell, where you're only wanted if you don't make mistakes, where you only make the cut and can continue to stay if you don't make mistakes? Makes no sense to me.

Go where you're wanted, where you fit in, where the pace of life you need and the way you want to live fits.

 

 

 

So I haven’t read the entire thread and this isn’t just directed at you, but this child is in 4th grade and 3-4 years ahead of others and tutors are being suggested? Or there are academic worries about a child that far ahead? I don’t know, but it seems to me just giving this kid a room to breath and time for brain to developmentally catch up might be all that is needed. I just absolutely fail to understand how there is even a problem here at all. 

And a general craziness of acceleration. I have one kid ahead (not as ahead as some here), but I see downsides of this going forward. This isn’t a place to be discussing those,  but acceleration isn’t something to seek out unless it isn’t forced. And at the rate of your child’s progress, you have not just accelerated, but hyper accelerated. I would really just pet my boy on the back and enjoy it and do AOPS at home at his pace without exams.

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

 

So I haven’t read the entire thread and this isn’t just directed at you, but this child is in 4th grade and 3-4 years ahead of others and tutors are being suggested? Or there are academic worries about a child that far ahead? I don’t know, but it seems to me just giving this kid a room to breath and time for brain to developmentally catch up might be all that is needed. I just absolutely fail to understand how there is even a problem here at all. 

And a general craziness of acceleration. I have one kid ahead (not as ahead as some here), but I see downsides of this going forward. This isn’t a place to be discussing those,  but acceleration isn’t something to seek out unless it isn’t forced. And at the rate of your child’s progress, you have not just accelerated, but hyper accelerated. I would really just pet my boy on the back and enjoy it and do AOPS at home at his pace without exams.

 

Well, we are finished with our school year, so things are a bit calmer at the moment. When I started this thread, I was mostly feeling out of my comfort zone going into the IEP meeting and didn't want to miss anything or do Sacha a disservice in representing him. Special ed is just not something I know much about, so I came here to ask for advice, but also tried to be as honest as possible about both his strengths and weaknesses in the discussion (as well as my own issues). In the end, I think a 504 plan was the right way to go. His recent PSAT 8/9 scores suggest that the ADHD meds are helping and that the major accommodations needed really are with respect to writing/typing (the PSAT 8/9 was all multiple choice).

Re acceleration, I hope I haven't given the impression that any of this is forced or some sort of ego thing for me. As I mentioned earlier, I really do follow his lead, incorporate his ideas into our homeschool, adjust our plans when things seem overwhelming to him, etc. And I'm very sorry that I seem to have given you the impression otherwise.

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16 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Well, we are finished with our school year, so things are a bit calmer at the moment. When I started this thread, I was mostly feeling out of my comfort zone going into the IEP meeting and didn't want to miss anything or do Sacha a disservice in representing him. Special ed is just not something I know much about, so I came here to ask for advice, but also tried to be as honest as possible about both his strengths and weaknesses in the discussion (as well as my own issues). In the end, I think a 504 plan was the right way to go. His recent PSAT 8/9 scores suggest that the ADHD meds are helping and that the major accommodations needed really are with respect to writing/typing (the PSAT 8/9 was all multiple choice).

Re acceleration, I hope I haven't given the impression that any of this is forced or some sort of ego thing for me. As I mentioned earlier, I really do follow his lead, incorporate his ideas into our homeschool, adjust our plans when things seem overwhelming to him, etc. And I'm very sorry that I seem to have given you the impression otherwise.

 

I guess what I was getting at is if a 4th grader is taking PSATs already and is that far ahead, what is a point of accommodation? I am slow maybe here, but I always think of kids who are really struggling in grade level who need such boosters, so I am a little dumb founded why a child who is 3-4 years ahead and taking a test that is meant for kids 7 years senior would need it. I would just assume you wait till he is a little older and better able to handle the tests or at least give him more age appropriate test. That’s what we did with my older (who was also way ahead but not test mature and still has some anxiety) at least. I don’t mean this post in a bad way, more in a way to say age does miracles and takes care of a lot of those little problems you might be seeing now.

 

just want to add that we have yet to do any DE with my rising 9th trader for same reasons. While academically he was ready in 6 - 7 grade, we didn’t think his maturity and test anxiety was really going to work with college environment. We are still doing it all at home with only one DE next year (the course we couldn’t get online) and its an easy one. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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11 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I guess what I was getting at is if a 4th grader is taking PSATs already and is that far ahead, what is a point of accommodation? I am slow maybe here, but I always think of kids who are really struggling in grade level who need such boosters, so I am a little dumb founded why a child who is 3-4 years ahead and taking a test that is meant for kids 7 years senior would need it. I would just assume you wait till he is a little older and better able to handle the tests or at least give him more age appropriate test. That’s what we did with my older (who was also way ahead but not test mature and still has some anxiety) at least. I don’t mean this post in a bad way, more in a way to say age does miracles and takes care of a lot of those little problems you might be seeing now.

 

Because he is trying to work at his actual level. That's the problem with being 2e -- you have giftedness with a learning disability. How are you supposed to work to your level, but accommodate the disability? That's what we are trying to figure out. Just putting him in classes that are appropriate for his age is not a solution. Just thinking that the disability will work itself out in a few years is not a solution. I know that when people see a middle schooler in college classes they immediately think that this is somehow about the parents, but I assure you that it would much easier for my family if we could just put Sacha in a regular gifted classroom or a good private school and call it a day. But, as we've discussed in this thread, none of those options will work for a variety of reasons.

Edited by SeaConquest

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6 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Because he is trying to work at his actual level. That's the problem with being 2e -- you have giftedness with a learning disability. How are you supposed to work to your level, but accommodate the disability? That's what we are trying to figure out. Just putting him in classes that are appropriate for his age is not a solution. Just thinking that the disability will work itself out in a few years is not a solution. I know that when people see a middle schooler in college classes they immediately think that this is somehow about the parents, but I assure you that it would much easier for my family if we could just put Sacha in a regular gifted classroom or a good private school and call it a day. But, as we've discussed in this thread, none of those options will work for a variety of reasons.

 

I don’t think you get what I am saying, but that’s OK.

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I don’t think you get what I am saying, but that’s OK.

I do and I agree. And I say that as a parent of multiple 2e kids. I see the big picture in a much different way bc I have different goals. I have always put being kid way beyond being student. But, the beauty of homeschooling is that we all get to do it our own way with our own goals.

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3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I don’t think you get what I am saying, but that’s OK.

 

I *think* I get what you're saying, but I still think what SeaConquest is doing is good and necessary for her son.

Like, I have a globally delayed kid, and I push for every service, therapy, accommodation, you-name-it, that I can to include in his IEP because he needs it all. Without that IEP he'd have zero chance of learning anything in a year at school. Even with it, he's still so, so far behind.

But I also have a kiddo who is cognitively >99.9% with lots of other "Es" who really needs all the accommodations (and probably more) in his 504, and I'll fight just as hard for him and his needs as I'll fight for my little guy's. Just because he's got a higher potential doesn't make his struggles any less real, and just because he's working at or above grade level doesn't mean it's easy, that he'll outgrow his LDs, or that he is any less deserving of accommodations.

I guess I just believe that all children should have the opportunity to meet their full potential, highly gifted kids included.

(Speaking as someone who used to be a 2e kid and who was denied needed help and accommodations.)

 

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SC, I skimmed through, but I didn't read all the posts particularly carefully. Sorry if I'm repeating things.

In your shoes, I'd want a full neurospych eval, done privately and with someone versed in the highly gifted and 2e. Maybe it's just ADHD, perhaps he'll even outgrow it as his brain ages and matures, but those scores seem super fishy to me. NVLD jumped out as something I'd want to rule out.

Also, did the school give you the breakdown on the WJ scores? Like, that broad math score, it seems way out of line with his performance. But... maybe it's not? One of my kids had a similar broad math score, but that was a combination of much higher and much lower sub scores. Just saying that there can be more to interpret out of those tests when you have the complete picture.

Also, extra time for tests may not be exactly what you want.  As Russell Barkley so entertainingly explains...

 

Edited by Cake and Pi
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14 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I do and I agree. And I say that as a parent of multiple 2e kids. I see the big picture in a much different way bc I have different goals. I have always put being kid way beyond being student. But, the beauty of homeschooling is that we all get to do it our own way with our own goals.

 

So, either I am dense and not following you both, or I seem to be not communicating my circumstances very well, so let me try again. As you know, I am currently in nursing school, pursuing a second career as a nurse practitioner. I am also trying to juggle homeschooling two kids. This is the plan over the next few years that Sacha and I have tentatively been discussing. Obviously, things are still in flux, but I hope you can understand why I cannot just sit down teach this all to him myself, nor can I just plop him down in front of MIT OCW.

He's a really extroverted kid and likes to be with other people -- whether in online classes or in person. He doesn't care about being with older kids or adults. It doesn't bother him or make him feel self-conscious about being little or young. I've showed him videos and articles of 9 and 10 years old who are in college and I asked him what he thought about what he read/saw to gauge his feelings; he thinks it's cool. 

He has two full academic years before we are even thinking of putting him a college class, and we are starting with classes that are his strengths -- science and programming. And we have two full academic years to decide if this is even the right course of action, after having two full academic years in Jetta and Connie's high school science classes as prep (not to mention continuing to mature with AoPS). He's already done tons of Great Courses lectures, he's already done tons of Online G3, Athena's, Outschool, and local classes. Basically, I am flat out of ideas and have neither the creativity nor the time to teach him 8-style myself.

Sacha will be in 5th next year, Ronen will be in Kinder. Sacha is taking:

  • Algebra @ AoPS Academy
  • HS Physics @ Clover Creek
  • Intermediate Python (Fall) & Intro Number Theory (Spring) @ AoPS Online
  • 19th Century American Lit (Fall) & LOTR (Spring) @ Online G3
  • Medieval History @ Home
  • WWS and CHSPE prep @ Home
  • Charter school enrichment/PE/guitar

I start my first year of nursing school clinicals in September. 

Tentative Sacha 6th (Ronen 1st):

  • Geometry @ AoPS Academy
  • HS Chemistry @ Clover Valley
  • F=MA @ AoPS Online (Fall) & USACO materials (Spring)
  • Shakespeare @ Online G3 or Roy Speed
  • Modern History @ Home
  • Composition course @ Integritas or Roy Speed
  • Charter school enrichment/PE/guitar

2nd year of nursing school clinicals. Graduation with BSN in July. NCLEX in August.

Tentative Sacha 7th (Ronen 2nd):

  • Intermediate Algebra/Pre-Calc @ AoPS Online (we may switch to AoPS Online after Geometry, so that he has more flexibility in his schedule and can compact the curriculum)
  • Evolutionary Bio (Fall) and Gen Chem I (Spring) at the Community College (in person courses)
  • Programming Fundamentals (Fall) & Data Structures (Spring) at the Community College (online courses)
  • Bar mitzvah prep (Fall) & Intermediate Number Theory (Spring) @ AoPS Online
  • British Lit @ Online G3 
  • PE/guitar

Begin working as a nurse, begin grad school year one.

Tentative Sacha 8th (Ronen 3rd):

  • Pre-Calc/Calc/Intermediate C&P @ AoPS Online
  • Gen Chem II (Fall) and Cell Bio (Spring) at the Community College (in person courses)
  • Machine Org/Assembly Lang (Fall) & Technical Computing w/ MATLAB (Spring) at the Community College (online courses)
  • Cultures, Civilizations & Ideas (Ancient, Middle Ages, Modern) at the Community College (online courses)
  • PE/guitar

Continue working as a nurse, grad school year two

ETA Tentative Sacha 9th (Ronen 4th):

  • Honors Linear Algebra/Multivariable Calc/Differential Equations Sequence @ UCSD (in person)
  • Physics for Physics majors sequence @ UCSD (in person)
  • AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)
  • AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)
  • PE/guitar

Continue working as a nurse, grad school year three

Edited by SeaConquest

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Monique, I am not criticizing you or your choices. He is your child and you need to do what you need to do. I just understand what @Roadrunneris saying bc the path you describe is absolutely not one I would pursue.  It starts with something as simple as I would never have a 10 yr old take the PSAT and is further exemplified by not planning out future yrs of my kids' course sequence.

I don't have a plan. I just let them be. There is no this this yr or that the next. They do what they do and we worry about the future when we get near the end of what they are currently doing. They have zero pressure of conforming to any plan at all bc there just isn't one for them to conform to. The only plan there is is the one they help create for each new school yr.

In terms of accommodations, since we do everything at home, they don't need anything at 10.  By college, my severe dyslexic had learned to cope and created his own way of meeting his needs (no trimester college apps, only 1 heavy reading course at a time, lots and lots of audio learning,etc). He didn't outgrow his dyslexia, but bc he is so gifted, he learned to compensate for his weaknesses and make it work.   Ditto to my dyslexic chemE ds.  My Aspie, otoh, can't function wo his accommodations bc his anxiety and slow processing speeds lead to his shutting down. But, accommodations aren't enough bc he can't have those in a job and therefore he can't function at his full potential---brutal as that reality is.

Like I stated, it isn't a comment on your choices just that I can understand why she doesn't understand them.

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On 5/30/2019 at 4:27 PM, Roadrunner said:

So I haven’t read the entire thread and this isn’t just directed at you, but this child is in 4th grade and 3-4 years ahead of others and tutors are being suggested?

 

Tutors are actually great for kids that do not progress linearly but in leaps and bounds, they aren’t just useful for remedial situations. 

I do think OP plans as a security blanket feeling for herself. Some people feel emotionally better with a five year plan even if they know that it would undergo numerous revisions. The only (emotional, mental) problem OP could potentially face would be if she is inflexible to changes in plans because kids tend to not follow parents “masterplans”. 

I can’t even plan what my kids would be doing this summer and it doesn’t faze me. My oldest just finished his finals for two subjects and we don’t know when results would be out. I have no idea what his 10th grade would look like. However I do know that other people would not like that kind of uncertainty that I don’t have an issue with. 

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39 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Tutors are actually great for kids that do not progress linearly but in leaps and bounds, they aren’t just useful for remedial situations. 

I do think OP plans as a security blanket feeling for herself. Some people feel emotionally better with a five year plan even if they know that it would undergo numerous revisions. The only (emotional, mental) problem OP could potentially face would be if she is inflexible to changes in plans because kids tend to not follow parents “masterplans”. 

I can’t even plan what my kids would be doing this summer and it doesn’t faze me. My oldest just finished his finals for two subjects and we don’t know when results would be out. I have no idea what his 10th grade would look like. However I do know that other people would not like that kind of uncertainty that I don’t have an issue with. 

Oh, I agree and understand that the planning is probably a security blanket and that many people need that. I just have a hard time relating bc I can't fathom a plan, any plan, that would actually work for my kids. We just don't function that way. At 10, months are questionable. By high schoo, an academic yr is usually feasible, but even then we might shift gears.  I'm glad we can and aren't tied to a school or provider.

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I would say that it is a security blanket for me because I am a visual learner/processor; it is just how I do things. I have an Excel file for everything. Sacha and I talk about ideas; I write down our ideas, but it is totally fluid. We are both visual processors. 

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10 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I would say that it is a security blanket for me because I am a visual learner/processor; it is just how I do things. I have an Excel file for everything. Sacha and I talk about ideas; I write down our ideas, but it is totally fluid. We are both visual processors. 

Does Sacha know or at least have a vague idea of the plan? Has he seen his possible progression laid out in some form like you typed it it in this thread? Since you have talked to him about DEing in 2 yrs and shared examples of younger kids attending college, I would guess that these are things you guys have tossed around together.

Philosophically, that is a completely foreign concept to me. My 9 yr old isn't as advanced as Sacha, but she will probably be doing Foerster's around 10 or 11. She is just slightly behind where her brother was in math at this age, but she is light yrs ahead of where he was in reading/writing at the same pt. But talks about future progression or college or anything remotely resembling those topics won't happen until she is high school age., even if she taking high school level courses well before then. 

I think that is where the big disconnect is in relating to your evals and plans. (Again, just talking philosophically here, not criticizing what you are doing. FWIW,  I suspect our approach is the minority one.)  My parenting philosophy doesn't see a need for them to think about it. There is no end game goal. If my 9 yr old stalls on some concepts and for some reason doesn't start Foerster's until say 12, she would have no clue that that is later than I originally anticipated. There is no external gauge for failure or success. We simplly work on concepts until mastery and then move on. There are no tests to pass or grades given. She has no pressure to meet ANY goal other than try to learn what is directly in front of her at any given pt. She does math (and pretty much as fast as she can get it over with) and then runs off and plays. Her future is no where in her thoughts at all. School occupies her mind for the least amt of time she has to have it there. Her playing plans are what she thinks about and that is my goal for her.  

I think Arcadia's kids, otoh, are focused on learning. She can probably relate far more to your family than I can.

Where I start to wonder about accommodations vs maturity is in your posted progression.  For example, I can share severe dyslexic ds's real outcome math progression since he was approx where Sacha currently is except he took Foerster's alg, geo, and alg 2 prior to taking AoPS intermediate in 8th.

18 hours ago, SeaConquest said:
  • Intermediate Algebra/Pre-Calc @ AoPS Online (we may switch to AoPS Online after Geometry, so that he has more flexibility in his schedule and can compact the curriculum)
  • Evolutionary Bio (Fall) and Gen Chem I (Spring) at the Community College (in person courses)
  • Programming Fundamentals (Fall) & Data Structures (Spring) at the Community College (online courses)
  • Bar mitzvah prep (Fall) & Intermediate Number Theory (Spring) @ AoPS Online
  • British Lit @ Online G3 
  • PE/guitar

Begin working as a nurse, begin grad school year one.

Tentative Sacha 8th (Ronen 3rd):

  • Pre-Calc/Calc/Intermediate C&P @ AoPS Online
  •  Gen Chem II (Fall) and Cell Bio (Spring) at the Community College (in person courses)
  • Machine Org/Assembly Lang (Fall) & Technical Computing w/ MATLAB (Spring) at the Community College (online courses)
  • Cultures, Civilizations & Ideas (Ancient, Middle Ages, Modern) at the Community College (online courses)
  • PE/guitar

Continue working as a nurse, grad school year two

ETA Tentative Sacha 9th (Ronen 4th):

  • Honors Linear Algebra/Multivariable Calc/Differential Equations Sequence @ UCSD (in person)
  • Physics for Physics majors sequence @ UCSD (in person)
  •  AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)
  • AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)
  • PE/guitar

Continue working as a nurse, grad school year three

Ds took AoPS intermediate in 8th, precal in 9th, and cal in 10th, DE in diffEQ and multivariable in 11th,  linear 1&2 in 12th. He took regular high school chem in 9th, AP chem in 10th, and DE in physics (taking a total of 5 semesters) in 11th and 12th. For our ds, those were the only DE courses. Everything else was done at home with me. For him that was enough outside workload and there is no way he could have coped with what you have listed for Sacha. Physics lab write-ups consumed hrs.  He would not have been mature enough to cope with in-major college lab write-ups in 9th grade. He was fine in 11th, but it would not have been an accommodation issue as much as a maturity to cope with load issue.  Nor would he have been able to cope with AoPS precal plus 2 other math courses simultaneously with the rest of his 9th grade work (I can't remember exactly, but I think he took precal, chem, astronomy 1, Latin, history, and English in 9th).  It was enough of a load at 14.  By 16 he was taking 2-3 math and science simultaneously via DE. By then he was ready, but no way before that would he have been mature enough to cope with the load/deadlines/pressure mentally (accommodations or not.) He didn't just need more time bc he was severely dyslexic; he needed to grow up into adulthood level functioning.

When he looks back now at his high school yrs, he says he was crazy to take evything that he did. He says he didn't need to take that many courses in high school.(and that was all 100% him. I told him no numerous times that he couldn't take more!) I guess it boils down to just bc they have the ability/potential, does that mean they need to or even should? How are they going to feel when they look backward on their childhood? I'm glad that if he ever has regrets (I don't think they are regrets right now as much as musings), they have to be owned 100% by him and can never directed toward me. 

(Fwiw, I look at your progression for him and it makes me feel incredibly stressed just reading it. It is just a very intense workload with lots of heavy output requirements. I approach my gifted kids as more heavy input with much lower output requirements bc of their ages.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

 She does math (and pretty much as fast as she can get it over with) and then runs off and plays. Her future is no where in her thoughts at all. School occupies her mind for the least amt of time she has to have it there. Her playing plans are what she thinks about and that is my goal for her.  

I think Arcadia's kids, otoh, are focused on learning. She can probably relate far more to your family than I can.

 

😂  My kids behave like your daughter. DS13 would be happy playing all day and never hitting the books. DS14 is more intense about going deep and wide but the waking hours he spend on play (drawing, building, composing music, comparing languages) is still more than he does on academics learning. If you are talking about learning in general, my kids are observers so yes they are always observing and thinking about what they are observing (though neither has voiced any interest in majoring in psychology so far). 

What I can relate to the OP is the pressure cooker environment in/near our residence. However our personality and life experiences are rather different. Homeschooling wasn’t legal in my country of origin so I went to school to play, did play truant in elementary school, and had scored everything from A to F in my school report card for Pre-K to 12th grade. I had a few Fs in engineering school, but landed good engineering internships by acing the interviews and secured job offers before graduation. 

DS14 was curious about dual enrollment so we visited a few community colleges a few times each. He was thinking of taking a drawing course at the community college he like the best out of all those so I did the paperwork for him to get a student ID there. In the end he decided he wanted to be a “normal” 14 year old and not do dual enrollment yet. 

My parenting philosophy is guided by being a gifted child that was “allowed” a childhood of being able to be a kid without having to maximize my academic potential. My parents must be thankful that Facebook, Instagram were not in existence when I was a kid since I was up to lots of mischief. 

I am in no way saying that OP’s kids are having a less enjoyable childhood then my kids. In fact OP’s kids probably has more fun than mine (due to my inability to drive and my family being in a financial donut hole category). What I am saying is that I have the benefit of being able to be nonchalant about my kids academic progress. I don’t have the anxiety/stress burden that OP might have. 

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So, absolutely Sacha has an idea of the plan since we work it out together. But, it isn't so much of a plan so much as an idea of where things might go, so that I can be aware of deadlines, or prereqs. At any point, Sacha can decide that he doesnt want to do something and kick it out to add something he wants to do more, or just drop back if he is feeling like it is too much. We do that all of the time. I would say that the only difference is with respect to pacing because we are using outside providers. But, if he was truly lost and not getting something, or bored out of his skull, we would change the pacing, to be sure. And certainly, there are some weeks we might spend longer on a topic than say his math class is spending on it because I feel like he is not getting it, but mostly the pacing has been right on target for him.

I have no clue whether, longer term, any of our ideas will be realistic. I have no clue if 5th or 6th grade will be at the appropriate level -- not too hard, not too easy, not too mature -- yet alone 9th grade. The further out we go, the more likely it is that the plans will not be a good fit and will change. You have the benefit of hindsight and experience (many times over), so I would put my money on you being correct. And that's fine. If he takes physics classes in 11th instead of 9th, or not at all because he decides that he enjoys something more than physics, that would be just fine. And if, like Arcadia's boy, he gets to the CC, and decides that he just wants to be a regular kid, that's fine too. We will have to figure out something else to do. Perhaps, tutors like John Rosasco. For now, he likes the CC to UC for high school idea, so that's our plan.

Yesterday, he received notification that his final project in Python was graded. I told him to ignore the grade and to just look at what the grader said in his comments since that is all that matters with respect to learning Python. Sacha immediately looked at the grade and almost ignored the comments because he wasn't happy with his final grade. We had a long discussion about how meaningless grades are, especially at his age, and how he has the gift of just learning Python because he wants to. He made some rookie programming mistakes because he hard-coded in things that he should have set up differently, and we talked about why he would want to do that differently in the future. So, I honestly try to keep the focus exclusively on the learning, but he still has managed to pick up on the importance of grades from the other kids in his classes already.

Re Arcadia's childhood, I was very much a rebel as well, and was often getting into serious trouble because I was unchallenged. I am hoping that my boys won't end up in as much trouble if they are engaged and challenged in ways that I wasn't. But, there is certainly too much pressure that can arise in going overboard, which I obviously don't want. The boys went to martial arts class at a new school on Thursday and really enjoyed it (and loved the teacher), so I hope that becomes a really positive thing for them.

Edited by SeaConquest

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5 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Ds took AoPS intermediate in 8th, precal in 9th, and cal in 10th, DE in diffEQ and multivariable in 11th,  linear 1&2 in 12th. He took regular high school chem in 9th, AP chem in 10th, and DE in physics (taking a total of 5 semesters) in 11th and 12th. For our ds, those were the only DE courses. Everything else was done at home with me. For him that was enough outside workload and there is no way he could have coped with what you have listed for Sacha. Physics lab write-ups consumed hrs.  He would not have been mature enough to cope with in-major college lab write-ups in 9th grade. He was fine in 11th, but it would not have been an accommodation issue as much as a maturity to cope with load issue.  Nor would he have been able to cope with AoPS precal plus 2 other math courses simultaneously with the rest of his 9th grade work (I can't remember exactly, but I think he took precal, chem, astronomy 1, Latin, history, and English in 9th).  It was enough of a load at 14.  By 16 he was taking 2-3 math and science simultaneously via DE. By then he was ready, but no way before that would he have been mature enough to cope with the load/deadlines/pressure mentally (accommodations or not.) He didn't just need more time bc he was severely dyslexic; he needed to grow up into adulthood level functioning.

 

Also, just to clarify, he wouldn't be taking 3 AoPS math classes at once. By switching to AoPS online after Geometry, he wouldn't have to wait for the next school year to take another math course. He could take more than one math class per year because the classes are shorter than 36 weeks. Intermediate Algebra is 24 weeks, Pre-Calc is 22 weeks, Calc is 25 weeks, Intermediate NT is 12 weeks, and Intermediate CP is 18 weeks. So, that's a total 101 weeks of math that we are talking about compacting into 2+ years, so that he could take Calc-based physics in 9th. I think Ruth, Quark, and Arcadia's boys all did something similar where they flew through a bunch of math classes back to back for awhile.

Re the physics for physics majors classes, the sequence at UCSD requires 5 lecture courses and 2 lab courses, and the first lecture course of the sequence doesn't begin until Winter quarter. So, 9th grade, would be 2 lecture classes only (during Winter and Spring quarters) -- no labs. 10th grade would have 3 lecture classes (all three quarters) and 2 lab classes (Winter and Spring quarters). So, he would be 16 years old before he is even writing his first physics for physics majors lab report. That doesn't seem excessively advanced to me, especially considering that he will have had years of practice writing lab reports in science camps, then his HS science classes, then his first CC classes in bio and chem (200 level classes). I don't know, it seems pretty incremental to me. But, if not, we adjust. 

ETA, since I am a visual:

9th:

Fall: MAE 2? (Intro to Aerospace Engineering)

Linear Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Winter: Physics 4A (lecture)

Multivariable Calc

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Spring: Physics 4B (lecture)

Vector Calc

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

10th:

Fall: Physics 4C (lecture)

MAE 21? Aerospace materials science

Abstract Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Winter: Physics 4D (lecture)

Physics 4 CL (Lab)

Abstract Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Spring: Physics 4E (lecture)

Physics 2 DL (Lab)

Abstract Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Edited by SeaConquest

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I just wanted to update (again) because my husband unexpectedly decided to pay attention when I told him the other day about Sacha's PSAT scores qualifying him for DYS. My husband decided to do some Googling to see exactly what that meant and he stumbled on the Davidson Academy. He asked if this meant that Sacha could attend DA. I explained that DYS didn't automatically get Sacha into DA, and then I explained the selective admissions process for DA to him. My husband was very interested in DA for Sacha, even if it meant us relocating, which was surprising because my DH is not a school person. So, who knows, in two years, that might be a whole new option and I might end up doing graduate nursing school at UNR, studying alongside my kid. That would be so rad. All of that to say, that we are open to all possibilities!

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18 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 My husband was very interested in DA for Sacha, even if it meant us relocating, which was surprising because my DH is not a school person. 

 

Go for a tour when the tour dates are out. My kids didn’t like DA and my husband wasn’t impressed. It was worth the 5hr drive for us to know that wasn’t a viable option. 

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2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Go for a tour when the tour dates are out. My kids didn’t like DA and my husband wasn’t impressed. It was worth the 5hr drive for us to know that wasn’t a viable option. 

 

What didn't they like?

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

What didn't they like?

 

1) rural. They like something at least as urban as UCLA. They think Harvey Mudd is too rural too.

2) too few humans, They like densely populated areas

3) the only food in the food court that they don’t mind eating was ramen. Kids bring their own lunch and the food court is for when kids didn’t bring a lunch. 

4) a kid was all alone at the school corridor area looking lonely

5) there was two classrooms that was very small and many kids were sitting on the floor in a cramped manner. The entire DA is very small compared to a typical elementary school campus. 

Overall, it did not have a vibrant vibe. 

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On 6/1/2019 at 12:22 PM, SeaConquest said:

 

Also, just to clarify, he wouldn't be taking 3 AoPS math classes at once. By switching to AoPS online after Geometry, he wouldn't have to wait for the next school year to take another math course. He could take more than one math class per year because the classes are shorter than 36 weeks. Intermediate Algebra is 24 weeks, Pre-Calc is 22 weeks, Calc is 25 weeks, Intermediate NT is 12 weeks, and Intermediate CP is 18 weeks. So, that's a total 101 weeks of math that we are talking about compacting into 2+ years, so that he could take Calc-based physics in 9th. I think Ruth, Quark, and Arcadia's boys all did something similar where they flew through a bunch of math classes back to back for awhile.

Re the physics for physics majors classes, the sequence at UCSD requires 5 lecture courses and 2 lab courses, and the first lecture course of the sequence doesn't begin until Winter quarter. So, 9th grade, would be 2 lecture classes only (during Winter and Spring quarters) -- no labs. 10th grade would have 3 lecture classes (all three quarters) and 2 lab classes (Winter and Spring quarters). So, he would be 16 years old before he is even writing his first physics for physics majors lab report. That doesn't seem excessively advanced to me, especially considering that he will have had years of practice writing lab reports in science camps, then his HS science classes, then his first CC classes in bio and chem (200 level classes). I don't know, it seems pretty incremental to me. But, if not, we adjust. 

ETA, since I am a visual:

9th:

Fall: MAE 2? (Intro to Aerospace Engineering)

Linear Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Winter: Physics 4A (lecture)

Multivariable Calc

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Spring: Physics 4B (lecture)

Vector Calc

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

10th:

Fall: Physics 4C (lecture)

MAE 21? Aerospace materials science

Abstract Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Winter: Physics 4D (lecture)

Physics 4 CL (Lab)

Abstract Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Spring: Physics 4E (lecture)

Physics 2 DL (Lab)

Abstract Algebra

AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)

Couple of thoughts....first, I recognize that that is the length of the online courses since that is the way ds did most of them. (He did precal with Kathy).  It doesn't change my original statement about why I can relate to the confusion posted by roadrunner. It boils down to why compacting is even a consideration. I wouldn't intentionally plan (ever, even if just thinking generally ahead) more than 1 course per yr. iIf at that pt they were jumping at the bit and pursued it themselves, fine. But **I** wouldn't think about it. When it comes to cal, those extra weeks after the course ends come in handy for AP prep since AoPS doesn't do any.

I tried to follow UCSD's course sequence, but I couldn't figure it out. It is not like the ones I am used to seeing, probably bc it is on the quarter system and I have encouraged my 2E kids to avoid quarter systems.

Standard physics major sequence is mechanics/lab, E&M/lab (or sometimes these 2 courses are just listed as cal-based physics 1&2), modern/lab, classical or physical mechanics (either 1 or 2 semester sequence; a 1 semester course is often called intermediate), e&m wave theory 1&2, quantum 1&2, thermal/stat mechanics, advanced lab.  In looking at UCSD's sequence it looks like the labs lag 1semester so the mechanics lab is taken concurrently with E&M and E&M's with modern?? Not sure I fully understand what they are doing, but those intro courses definitely have a lab somewhere.

And those material science classes you have listed are most likely going to be intense, more so than the physics or math classes.  I am just saying that your list reads like full-time upper level college student, not high school student.

One unrelated heads up, foreign languages were hard for ds. I don't know how Sacha functions, but I wouldn't necessarily classify non-STEM courses as less demanding for STEM students. And GPA in any DE classes will follow him forever. Any non-A grade courses taken via DE can be a huge hit when it comes to applying to grad school bc they won't care when the classes were taken. (Some Us factor those courses directly into student GPA as UGs. Those grades will have to also be included in REU applications. REUs are as competitive as grad school apps and are vital for grad admissions.  Just a caution for possibly considering when thinking long-term.)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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40 minutes ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Couple of thoughts....first, I recognize that that is the length of the online courses since that is the way ds did most of them. (He did precal with Kathy).  It doesn't change my original statement about why I can relate to the confusion posted by roadrunner. It boils down to why compacting is even a consideration. I wouldn't intentionally plan (ever, even if just thinking generally ahead) more than 1 course per yr. iIf at that pt they were jumping at the bit and pursued it themselves, fine. But **I** wouldn't think about it. When it comes to cal, those extra weeks after the course ends come in handy for AP prep since AoPS doesn't do any.

I tried to follow UCSD's course sequence, but I couldn't figure it out. It is not like the ones I am used to seeing, probably bc it is on the quarter system and I have encouraged my 2E kids to avoid quarter systems.

Standard physics major sequence is mechanics/lab, E&M/lab (or sometimes these 2 courses are just listed as cal-based physics 1&2), modern/lab, classical or physical mechanics (either 1 or 2 semester sequence; a 1 semester course is often called intermediate), e&m wave theory 1&2, quantum 1&2, thermal/stat mechanics, advanced lab.  In looking at UCSD's sequence it looks like the labs lag 1semester so the mechanics lab is taken concurrently with E&M and E&M's with modern?? Not sure I fully understand what they are doing, but those intro courses definitely have a lab somewhere.

And those material science classes you have listed are most likely going to be intense, more so than the physics or math classes.  I am just saying that your list reads like full-time upper level college student, not high school student.

One unrelated heads up, foreign languages were hard for ds. I don't know how Sacha functions, but I wouldn't necessarily classify non-STEM courses as less demanding for STEM students. And GPA in any DE classes will follow him forever. Any non-A grade courses taken via DE can be a huge hit when it comes to applying to grad school bc they won't care when the classes were taken. (Some Us factor those courses directly into student GPA as UGs. Those grades will have to also be included in REU applications. REUs are as competitive as grad school apps and are vital for grad admissions.  Just a caution for possibly considering when thinking long-term.)

 

I am not sure that I follow their sequence either, but this is how I make it out (below) -- he obviously cannot start it until he gets done with Calc, so math is the hold up (hence the reason for wanting to compact):

PHYS 4A. Physics for Physics Majors—Mechanics (4)

The first quarter of a five-quarter calculus-based physics sequence for physics majors and students with a serious interest in physics. The topics covered are vectors, particle kinematics and dynamics, work and energy, conservation of energy, conservation of momentum, collisions, rotational kinematics and dynamics, equilibrium of rigid bodies. Prerequisites: Math 20A. Corequisites: Math 20B (prior completion is sufficient).

PHYS 4B. Physics for Physics Majors—Fluids, Waves, and Heat (4)

Continuation of Physics 4A covering oscillations, gravity, fluid statics and dynamics, waves in elastic media, sound waves, heat and the first law of thermodynamics, kinetic theory of gases, second law of thermodynamics, gaseous mixtures and chemical reactions. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A and Math 20B. Corequisites: Math 20C or 31BH (prior completion is sufficient). Students continuing to Physics 4C will also need Math 18 or 20F or 31AH.

PHYS 4C. Physics for Physics Majors—Electricity and Magnetism (4)

Continuation of Physics 4B covering charge and Coulomb’s law, electric field, Gauss’s law, electric potential, capacitors and dielectrics, current and resistance, magnetic field, Ampere’s law, Faraday’s law, inductance, magnetic properties of matter, LRC circuits, Maxwell’s equations. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2C or 4B, Math 20C or 31BH, and Math 18 or 20F or 31AH. Corequisites: Math 20E or 31CH (prior completion is sufficient).

PHYS 4D. Physics for Physics Majors—Electromagnetic Waves, Optics, and Special Relativity (4)

Continuation of Physics 4C covering electromagnetic waves and the nature of light, cavities and wave guides, electromagnetic radiation, reflection and refraction with applications to geometrical optics, interference, diffraction, holography, special relativity. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Math 20A, Math 20B, Math 20C or 31BH, Math 20E or 31CH, and Math 18 or 20F or 31AH. Corequisites: Math 20D (prior completion is sufficient).

PHYS 4E. Physics for Physics Majors—Quantum Physics (4)

Continuation of Physics 4D covering experimental basis of quantum mechanics: Schrödinger equation and simple applications; spin; structure of atoms and molecules; selected topics from solid state, nuclear, and elementary particle physics. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Physics 2D or 4D, Math 20A, Math 20B, Math 20C or 31BH, Math 20D, Math 20E or 31CH, and Math 18 or 20F or 31AH.

PHYS 2CL. Physics Laboratory—Electricity and Magnetism (2)

Experiments on L-R-C circuits; oscillations, resonance and damping, measurement of magnetic fields. One-hour lecture and three hours’ laboratory. Program or materials fees may apply. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A and Physics 2B or 4C. Corequisites: Physics 2C or 4D (prior completion is sufficient).

PHYS 2DL. Physics Laboratory—Modern Physics (2)

One hour of lecture and three hours of laboratory. Experiments to be chosen from refraction, diffraction and interference of microwaves, Hall effect, thermal band gap, optical spectra, coherence of light, photoelectric effect, e/m ratio of particles, radioactive decays, and plasma physics. Program or materials fees may apply. Prerequisites: Physics 2BL or 2CL. Corequisites: Physics 2D or 4E (prior completion is sufficient).

He says that this is the series that really sounds interesting to him:

PHYS 160. Stellar Astrophysics (4)

Introduction to stellar astrophysics: observational properties of stars, solar physics, radiation and energy transport in stars, stellar spectroscopy, nuclear processes in stars, stellar structure and evolution, degenerate matter and compact stellar objects, supernovae and nucleosynthesis. Physics 160, 161, 162, and 163 may be taken as a four-quarter sequence for students interested in pursuing graduate study in astrophysics or individually as topics of interest. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Physics 2D or 4D, Physics 2D or 4E.

PHYS 161. Black Holes (4)

An introduction to Einstein’s theory of general relativity with emphasis on the physics of black holes. Topics will include metrics and curved space-time, the Schwarzchild metric, motion around and inside black holes, rotating black holes, gravitational lensing, gravity waves, Hawking radiation, and observations of black holes. Physics 160, 161, 162, and 163 may be taken as a four-quarter sequence for students interested in pursuing graduate study in astrophysics or individually as topics of interest. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Physics 2D or 4D, Physics 2D or 4E.

PHYS 162. Cosmology (4)

The expanding Universe, the Friedman-Robertson-Walker equations, dark matter, dark energy, and the formation of galaxies and large scale structure. Topics in observational cosmology, including how to measure distances and times, and the age, density, and size of the Universe. Topics in the early Universe, including the cosmic microwave background, creation of the elements, cosmic inflation, the big bang. Physics 160, 161, 162, and 163 may be taken as a four-quarter sequence for students interested in pursuing graduate study in astrophysics or individually as topics of interest. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Physics 2D or 4D, Physics 2D or 4E.

PHYS 163. Galaxies and Quasars (4)

An introduction to the structure and properties of galaxies in the universe. Topics covered include the Milky Way, the interstellar medium, properties of spiral and elliptical galaxies, rotation curves, starburst galaxies, galaxy formation and evolution, large-scale structure, and active galaxies and quasars. Physics 160, 161, 162, and 163 may be taken as a four-quarter sequence in any order for students interested in pursuing graduate study in astrophysics or individually as topics of interest. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Physics 2D or 4D, Physics 2D or 4E.

PHYS 164. Observational Astrophysics Research Lab (4)

Project-based course developing tools and techniques of observational astrophysical research: photon counting, imaging, spectroscopy, astrometry; collecting data at the telescope; data reduction and analysis; probability functions; error analysis techniques; and scientific writing. Prerequisites: Physics 2A or 4A, Physics 2B or 4C, Physics 2C or 4B, Physics 2D or 4D, Physics 2D or 4E. Recommended preparation: concurrent enrollment or completion of one course from Physics 160, 161, 162, or 163 is recommended.

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Also, we have the option to take classes at SDSU or the CCs in physics, if the quarter system proves too difficult, but I have two full professor friends at UCSD who have offered to help mentor him. I think they can assist him with getting any help he might need with navigating UCSD. My experience with SDSU in their biology department was that it was very impacted, very cut-throat, and lots of cheating, so that kind of soured me on the school for DE. I have no personal experience with UCSD to gauge how it might be in comparison. My experience with our local CCs in their bio and chem departments has been good, but there is no question that the UC classes will be more rigorous.

Edited by SeaConquest

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I can understand why those sound interesting to him. That is the stuff ds eats up and his focus in grad school--galaxy formation and theoretical cosmology. 🙂 But, as interesting as they are, taking his time to get there is not going to negatively impact him in any way and compaction and encouraging that level of DE just might.

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1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

I am not sure that I follow their sequence either, but this is how I make it out (below) -- he obviously cannot start it until he gets done with Calc, so math is the hold up (hence the reason for wanting to compact):

 

DS13 completed AP Physics C last month and would be doing a AP Calculus BC course in summer school. He loves physics and chemistry more than maths, and there was no reason to wait. He puts in more than 10 hours per week each for Chemistry (PAH) and Physics (PAH) because he wants to do well despite all the whining while doing. That was why he have only two formal classes for 8th grade. He have all the time to dedicate to his two favorite sciences. All his other courses were light and flexible. 

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2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

DS13 completed AP Physics C last month and would be doing a AP Calculus BC course in summer school. He loves physics and chemistry more than maths, and there was no reason to wait. He puts in more than 10 hours per week each for Chemistry (PAH) and Physics (PAH) because he wants to do well despite all the whining while doing. That was why he have only two formal classes for 8th grade. He have all the time to dedicate to his two favorite sciences. All his other courses were light and flexible. 

Yes. Letting them spend intense time dedicated to those fields of deep interest (like Ruth's ds and math) and then less intense (more high school level vs U level) courses for the bulk, then it is doable. But, it takes an extremely special child to function at an upper UG level in high school across the board. It is hard to imagine a 2E student is a good fit for that profile.

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On 6/3/2019 at 2:50 PM, Arcadia said:

 

DS13 completed AP Physics C last month and would be doing a AP Calculus BC course in summer school. He loves physics and chemistry more than maths, and there was no reason to wait. He puts in more than 10 hours per week each for Chemistry (PAH) and Physics (PAH) because he wants to do well despite all the whining while doing. That was why he have only two formal classes for 8th grade. He have all the time to dedicate to his two favorite sciences. All his other courses were light and flexible. 

I

On 5/31/2019 at 1:16 PM, SeaConquest said:

 

  • Algebra @ AoPS Academy
  • HS Physics @ Clover Creek
  • Intermediate Python (Fall) & Intro Number Theory (Spring) @ AoPS Online
  • 19th Century American Lit (Fall) & LOTR (Spring) @ Online G3
  • Medieval History @ Home
  • WWS and CHSPE prep @ Home
  • Charter school enrichment/PE/guitar

I start my first year of nursing school clinicals in September. 

Tentative Sacha 6th (Ronen 1st):

  • Geometry @ AoPS Academy
  • HS Chemistry @ Clover Valley
  • F=MA @ AoPS Online (Fall) & USACO materials (Spring)
  • Shakespeare @ Online G3 or Roy Speed
  • Modern History @ Home
  • Composition course @ Integritas or Roy Speed
  • Charter school enrichment/PE/guitar

2nd year of nursing school clinicals. Graduation with BSN in July. NCLEX in August.

Tentative Sacha 7th (Ronen 2nd):

  • Intermediate Algebra/Pre-Calc @ AoPS Online (we may switch to AoPS Online after Geometry, so that he has more flexibility in his schedule and can compact the curriculum)
  • Evolutionary Bio (Fall) and Gen Chem I (Spring) at the Community College (in person courses)
  • Programming Fundamentals (Fall) & Data Structures (Spring) at the Community College (online courses)
  • Bar mitzvah prep (Fall) & Intermediate Number Theory (Spring) @ AoPS Online
  • British Lit @ Online G3 
  • PE/guitar

Begin working as a nurse, begin grad school year one.

Tentative Sacha 8th (Ronen 3rd):

  • Pre-Calc/Calc/Intermediate C&P @ AoPS Online
  • Gen Chem II (Fall) and Cell Bio (Spring) at the Community College (in person courses)
  • Machine Org/Assembly Lang (Fall) & Technical Computing w/ MATLAB (Spring) at the Community College (online courses)
  • Cultures, Civilizations & Ideas (Ancient, Middle Ages, Modern) at the Community College (online courses)
  • PE/guitar

Continue working as a nurse, grad school year two

ETA Tentative Sacha 9th (Ronen 4th):

  • Honors Linear Algebra/Multivariable Calc/Differential Equations Sequence @ UCSD (in person)
  • Physics for Physics majors sequence @ UCSD (in person)
  • AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)
  • AA major/IGETC courses at the Community College (online)
  • PE/guitar

Continue working as a nurse, grad school year three

 

I have always loved to plan out the year and NEVER end up doing more than a third of what I plan -- because when our gifted kids take these harder, out of level courses, something has to give.  When I see these plans I think Yes! They sound perfect! But my kid could never do that.  Like, he might be able to handle the material in each of them separately, but together it is just too much.  Roy Speed's classes are geared toward high schoolers and look like they involve a lot of writing (not his Shakespeare ones, but the logical communication and essay classes).  I am budgeting about 1 1/2 hours a day for Clover Valley next year, AOPS always takes about 1 1/2 hours, and he himself would not double up on the math classes because then it would be up to 3 hours a day for Math.  The other two classes are going to be Farrar and Jill's Global Perspectives Studies taught at home -- the 9 major writing assignments will have hard deadlines but I am going to tweak the rest for him if I need to since I am expecting Hon Chem and Precalc to be giant time sucks.  But that's just my kid. We only did Intermediate Alg this year -- I was so tempted to tack on Int C&P but he just wanted a break.  He's doing Intermediate Python instead and he started the Int C&P book on his own, to work through when he wanted to.  Next year he's doing 

However the other issue beside the major time commitments that each class will entail, is that having all outside classes requires a LOT of executive functioning.  My kid is 7th, NT and probably highly gifted (he maxed out on the OLSAT but we never tested IQ).  He would be crushed by one of these schedules because his executive functioning is that of a 7th grader, not a high schooler or college student.  That is why we do a balance of out of level classes for his passions and home taught courses with loose deadlines for the rest. 

All that being said -- I totally understand where you are coming from! You have some major constraints on your time and a lot on your plate! 

 

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40 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

My kid is 7th, NT and probably highly gifted (he maxed out on the OLSAT but we never tested IQ).  He would be crushed by one of these schedules because his executive functioning is that of a 7th grader, not a high schooler or college student.  

 

My kids did the OLSAT 8th Edition Level E in 2013 and neither of them maxed out.

The only formal courses DS13 did were

7th: WTMA German and AoPS Precalculus 

Summer: Statistics and Chemistry Honors at brick and mortar summer school (he wanted to do chemistry labs in a brick and mortar class and he had so much fun.)

8th: AP Chem and AP Physics C

DS14 needed some help with his executive function skills; things like checking emails daily and registering for exams. His formal subjects were

7th: AP Calculus BC and AP Computer Science A.  He did Roy Speed Shakespeare as enrichment 

8th: AP Chem and AP Physics C. He did CTY Linear Algebra as enrichment as he felt that was his weakest area and he wanted to do one round of linear algebra before he does another round for credit and prerequisite purposes. 

For both my kids, we budget a day for each lab (experiment and report writing). Often that uninterrupted day at home is a Sunday. DS13 did Chemistry and Physics homework at the tennis court picnic tables after his tennis lesson while DS14 was having lessons. It was comical bringing a roller bag (cabin luggage size) on public light rail and bus to go to tennis lessons but that gives him 2 x 2hrs a week to do his work. Sometimes he revise for tests on public transport, sometimes he play on his phone or read Wikipedia on topics that interest him. I helped both kids with filing for some subjects because they wanted me to. Chemistry was three 3” binders because DS13 prefers single sided printing to double sided printing and does better with reading printouts than reading on screen. 

Edited by Arcadia

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So, I had Kaiser do additional OT testing for Sacha's fine motor issues, and it looks like my instincts were correct. From my lay perspective, it looks like he has some pretty substantial delays, especially when under timed conditions. I just sent this to the school to add to his special ed file, but I think this more than substantiates the typing accommodation. No wonder the poor kid hates to write! We are meeting again with the OT in a week or so to go over some strategies to help, but I get the impression that we will get limited assistance from Kaiser in treating this. I wonder now if he does need services from the school, or if the accommodations are all he needs. I am asking because I really have no idea. I've attached the OT report because you all are experts and have been so helpful!

Sacha Labarre OT Eval.pdf

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Do you think he’s scoring low on REAL etc because of a fundamental problem with his body and how it works plus ADHD / EF issues? Or could it be that emphasis on academics plus living circumstances haven’t given him much practice with the lagging skills? 

Does he have handwork to do? Of any sort?

Have you taught him to cook? 

Has he worked on tying laces and doing up complicated clothes or does the San Diego lifestyle favor t-shirts and shorts and Velcro closure shoes?

 

these are just “for example” questions...  trying to get at what I am wondering 

 

 

Edited by Pen

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9 hours ago, Pen said:

Do you think he’s scoring low on REAL etc because of a fundamental problem with his body and how it works plus ADHD / EF issues? Or could it be that emphasis on academics plus living circumstances haven’t given him much practice with the lagging skills?

I think it is more the latter. I was more concerned about the other scores related to writing than the life scores, which I think will catch up with more "life." 

Does he have handwork to do? Of any sort? 

I'm not sure what handwork means exactly. Like chores? He walks the dog, which he whines and complains about every day. Other than that, not really. We have a housekeeper, so he doesn't do much to help around the house other than pick up clothes/toys off the floor when I ask.

Have you taught him to cook? 

My husband does the cooking, and by cooking, I mostly mean microwaving or easy meal prep. We also eat out or order Uber Eats a lot. Sacha can microwave stuff, but there is not really much scratch cooking going on in our house on a regular basis (I do scratch cook during the holidays). So, no, he doesn't know how to cook beyond that.

Has he worked on tying laces and doing up complicated clothes or does the San Diego lifestyle favor t-shirts and shorts and Velcro closure shoes?

I bought him a pair of tie up shoes and tried to teach him a few years ago. He didn't practice and didn't wear the shoes once. I gave them away to goodwill. He wears t-shirts, shorts, flip flops, sandals, and velcro tennis shoes year-round. I tried to explain that to her, but she told me to mark it down as what I thought he would be able to perform if he had to (like when he went away by himself to Astrocamp up in the mountains, I think he needed help with some of the heavier clothes).

these are just “for example” questions...  trying to get at what I am wondering 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 I just sent this to the school to add to his special ed file, but I think this more than substantiates the typing accommodation. No wonder the poor kid hates to write! 

 

12 hours ago, Pen said:

 Or could it be that emphasis on academics plus living circumstances haven’t given him much practice with the lagging skills? 

 

Going just by the report, it looks like life skills that is lagging, kind of like those well baby/child parent questionnaire parents/caregivers had to fill in here. What is being done to evaluate why he finds writing a chore? 

When DS14 was in kindergarten, he was marked as deficit by his class teacher in cutting using scissors, tying shoelaces and opening a bottle. The cutting using scissors was solved by practicing at home since we don’t use scissors at all so he totally have not use scissors prior to kindergarten. The shoelaces part was because of his height partially, he could tie them when they are not on his feet, and he could tie them when he is sitting down with his knees bend and his feet up. It was just hard for him as a four year old kindergartener to maintain his balance while bending to tie his shoelaces and he didn’t think to squat and tie his shoelaces. The opening bottles part was resolved easily with practice since he rarely use water bottles or mineral water bottles before kindergarten. 

DS14 cleared fine motor skills testing by his pediatrician and also teachers’ observations while in lower elementary and still gets to type his school work. He just can’t write as fast as he thinks in lower elementary and he tires from writing (compared to kids who went to preschool), and he draws his letters instead of write because they have to be beautiful. His pain threshold is also lower than DS13 (who can write lots in kindergarten but not pretty and can hurt himself and not know).

ETA:

Those skills that my kids “fail” in, the evaluators compared to the parents questionnaire to see if the kid has ever done that skill. e.g. kid has never used an iron, obviously kid is going to look curiously/bewildered if handed an iron.

DS14 was late to walk as a toddler. When evaluated at 15months, it was concluded that DS14 didn’t see a need to walk given he crawl very fast from 8 months old, and that he could run very fast too for a 15 month old. He just didn’t have any incentive to walk. The pediatrician was surprised that he could run since he never showed that he could walk or run during wellbaby checkups. He would have been referred to OT/PT otherwise.

Edited by Arcadia

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12 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

 
SeaConquest
   10 hours ago,  Pen said: 

Do you think he’s scoring low on REAL etc because of a fundamental problem with his body and how it works plus ADHD / EF issues? Or could it be that emphasis on academics plus living circumstances haven’t given him much practice with the lagging skills?

I think it is more the latter. I was more concerned about the other scores related to writing than the life scores, which I think will catch up with more "life."

I’m not sure more “life” yields more skills unless they are sought out

Does he have handwork to do? Of any sort? 

I'm not sure what handwork means exactly.

Like things many kids do that work on hand-eye and fine motor skills without it being writing.  

Woodworking.

Helping with home repairs.

Gardening and handling first big seeds when very young and gradually littler seeds.

Sewing.

Cutting vegetables for a soup.  Measuring spices for a recipe...

 

Like chores? He walks the dog, which he whines and complains about every day. Other than that, not really. We have a housekeeper, so he doesn't do much to help around the house other than pick up clothes/toys off the floor when I ask.

Have you taught him to cook? 

My husband does the cooking, and by cooking, I mostly mean microwaving or easy meal prep. We also eat out or order Uber Eats a lot. Sacha can microwave stuff, but there is not really much scratch cooking going on in our house on a regular basis (I do scratch cook during the holidays). So, no, he doesn't know how to cook beyond that.

I imagine that cooking might  be hard in your circumstances.  

But could it be you are all missing out on an opportunity for nutrition plus useful progress on dexterity...  

maybe once or twice a week have cooking from scratch that includes the boys?

Doesn’t need to be fancy...

Has he worked on tying laces and doing up complicated clothes or does the San Diego lifestyle favor t-shirts and shorts and Velcro closure shoes?

I bought him a pair of tie up shoes and tried to teach him a few years ago. He didn't practice and didn't wear the shoes once.

Maybe he needs at least an hour per day working on such skills    

At his age if he did not have them he might be going to an occupational therapist to help in some schools

I guess it’s okay if he grows up to be a physicist who can’t tie his own shoes.  But the lack of practice at a large variety of things being done with hands may impact his ability to write      His Brain is being “wired” by what he does do and by what he doesn’t do.

I gave them away to goodwill. He wears t-shirts, shorts, flip flops, sandals, and velcro tennis shoes year-round. I tried to explain that to her, but she told me to mark it down as what I thought he would be able to perform if he had to (like when he went away by himself to Astrocamp up in the mountains, I think he needed help with some of the heavier clothes).

these are just “for example” questions...  trying to get at what I am wondering 

 

 

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I recently filled out a similar but different form to rate DS15's life skills. I had to rank him lower on areas where he has not had practice. For example, I do my shopping when he is at school, so anything related to finding things in the store and handling money, he was low on.

It's complicated, because, yes, he will improve with practice. But, also, he needs more practice than his peers to gain the same level of skill. He needs direct instruction on some things that most kids will pick up automatically. So my other kids who also don't go grocery shopping with me would perhaps have scored higher on those areas than he did, even though they all have the same experience level.

So I, therefore, need to focus more specifically on teaching him things that one would think he would learn just naturally. And explaining things as I do them, because he will not learn it just by watching me do it. He needs a plan for intervention, and the teacher will mostly be me. So I have to up my game and be deliberate about it.

DS15 needs extra instruction in the areas of shopping, cooking, cleaning, and counting and handling money. He has fine motor difficulties and poor attention to detail, so tying shoes is hard for him, and so are things like clipping his nails, cutting his food, chopping vegetables, scrubbing the bathroom, and so on.

So he's 15 and still asks for help tying his shoes. This summer, he has a particular pair that he wants to wear, and I have told him that he has to tie them once by himself before I will help him tighten them up so that he can wear them. Just the daily practice of tying the shoes helps, versus the avoidance behavior. He is making some small improvements this summer. We are trying to give him the practice time, without overwhelming him with instructions, because he gets cranky and that is counterproductive. So just tying them, even if sloppily, is a good first step for him, and we will give him small tips along the way. Instead of having longer shoe-tying lessons, which get frustrating for everyone.

I told him that it is like when I was teaching myself to braid my hair when I was a teenager. I just did it every day. And every day, it looked horrible, and I would take it out and wear my hair down instead. But by doing it every day, I gradually got better, and then I became good at braiding and wore my hair like that often.

I don't know if he really got my point, but it was that practice is needed, even if the result is poor for a good period of time.

The fact the the results are poor tends to be discouraging, and then we give up practicing, but really it means we should practice more. So chopping things in the kitchen with a knife is hard, and so I have avoided having him practice, and he has not gotten better at it. I need to move to a mindset of intervention and practice and have him do it more often, not less, when it is difficult. The truth is that it is easier for both of us if I just do it myself, but taking the easier path now actually means it remains harder for longer.

I am preaching to myself here. We just got DS's report back in June, and we have a lot to work on.

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I think your report shows some areas of weakness that need attention. I think it's fine to send it to the school, but I would not expect the school to offer OT services for those areas. They are things you will need to work on at home, or you could choose to go to a private OT.

It's interesting how those lower areas on OT reports seem to correspond with lower visual spatial scores on the WISC. In general, I mean, not just for your son, but for mine, and for a lot of people, I think. I would not just logically associate fine motor difficulties with lower performance in life skills kinds of things, but they seem to be connected or correspond in some way.

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Something not done is hard just because no practice—even if no underlying “reason”.  Hard makes avoidance likely —> harder yet.  And from what is known about brain development, if it remains unused, the neurons that might support that area of functioning will likely be pruned in adolescence.  

With adhd and EF lagging, it may be harder yet, and exacerbate this lack of use leading to more difficulty downward spiral.  

If typing is a good accommodation for writing that’s fine.

But in life, it can be really hard not to have basic life skills. Or certainly at least take lots of money if he’ll always need a cook and housekeeper etc. 

Im also not certain that microwave food is entirely healthful.  And some foods may exacerbate adhd and EF issues... for yet another possible downward spiral...

Edited by Pen
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DS15 also has trouble with zipping jackets, doing buttons, and so on. Because it's hard, he has a tendency to avoid doing it. So understandable!!! But now I have to choose to be the teacher/interventionist instead of being so understanding that I let him not try. So when he does his laundry (he hates this task), I have him hang shirts and sweatshirts on hangars, and I require him to zip up the hoodies and button at least one button on the shirts, so that they don't fall off of the hangars. He despises this and gets grumpy, and it can be unpleasant. I don't like working on it any more than he does, so I have to work on my own desire to avoid doing it with him.

It's hard.

For you, I think tying shoes is important, and I think it would be good to get him another pair that he picks out for himself and will like. And even if he doesn't wear them all day long, he could put them on in the morning once per day. Then he can take them off and put them in the closet until the next day. But when he does need to tie shoes at a later date, then, he will be able to do it. It's kind of embarrassing to be a teenager in the locker room after school, getting ready for track, and not being able to tie your own shoes (DS15 runs track). Or being at some kind of camp away from home and not being able to wear flip flops and having to ask the counselor to tie the sneakers for you.

I think it's worth it to work on it. And things like teaching cooking and cleaning, so that when he has a place of his own, he is not at a loss for what to do. I am suddenly aware of the fact that DS15 has adulthood looming, and it may take him a good amount of time to master some of these things, so I've got to get cracking instead of letting things go until later.

Edited to add: I am not holding myself up as an example of how to do this well, but as an example of someone who has not done it well enough with my son and needs to do better.

Edited by Storygirl
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On shoe tying— several early childhood interventionists, several school teachers, and I had all tried to teach my Ds to tie his shoes without success .  Then, At a children’s shoe store an older shoe salesman showed Ds how and in a quite short time, Ds caught on and could do it. (When I commented the man said something like, well, I’ve been teaching maybe 10 kids a day to tie their shoes for the last 40 years, not a surprise I’ve gotten good at it.) So for some skills the teaching may be highly significant.

(I’m currently concerned about this in re driving instruction.) 

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