IEP Meeting Next Week: Need Help Interpreting Testing in 2E Kid

[SeaConquest]

53 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

 

That's a bummer! Ours here is very low key- the middle school one meets 20 Sundays in a school year, and has a teacher teach a concept and then they play games related to it. They did probability with SET,  for instance, after playing SET in small groups.  It was a venue for kids taking Math competition tests for sure, but attendance was not mandatory and competitions weren't either, and sometimes 30 people showed up and sometimes six.

Some of the kids were pretty intense, it was true.  But not all. 

My son has had the most luck finding a good fit through dungeons and dragons (new for him) and through theater.  This summer he is doing sailing camp and a filmmakers camp. I thought about math but decided against it.  

 

 

I could be wrong, but that was just the impression that I got reading their materials. It is competitive to be accepted, then it seems you have to prove you are a fit the first year or two that you are a member. Maybe I am reading into it, but it does not seem low key. Plus, when I showed my husband, he felt like he would have zero time for a relationship with Sacha because, along with S's AoPS Academy class, it would basically eat up our entire weekend and have the kid in academic stuff almost 7 days/week. Steve thinks it is too much. Like I said, I haven't talked to Sacha about it yet.

http://www.sdmathcircle.org/home 

Edited April 7, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SanDiegoMom]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I could be wrong, but that was just the impression that I got reading their materials. It is competitive to be accepted, then it seems you have to prove you are a fit the first year or two that you are a member. Maybe I am reading into it, but it does not seem low key. Plus, when I showed my husband, he felt like he would have zero time for a relationship with Sacha because, along with S's AoPS Academy class, it would basically eat up our entire weekend and have the kid in academic stuff almost 7 days/week. Steve thinks it is too much. Like I said, I haven't talked to Sacha about it yet.

http://www.sdmathcircle.org/home 

 

I think you might be right. Compare the mission statement of SDMC:

What is SDMC? Is it like the math club at school? It's an understandable comparison to make, and there are similarities, but there are important differences. SDMC has a strategic mission of reaching the most able and highest achieving mathematics students in the greater San Diego area, and to provide them with instruction and challenges that develop their problem-solving skills. In many cases, SDMC students have few intellectual peers in their traditional schools; for these students SDMC provides an intellectual peer group unlike anything in their school experience. To Fairfax Math Circle: The Fairfax Math Circle (FMC) is a math enrichment program that focuses on exploration and problem-solving. It is a program dedicated to providing opportunities for motivated students to develop a deeper understanding and appreciation of math. We seek to broaden our students' perception of what it means to do mathematics and to be a mathematician. We provide students with the tools to play with mathematics in a deeper way, and with an environment in which they feel comfortable exploring new and challenging things. We work to expose them to math concepts they would not normally be exposed to in a tradition school setting. FMC is not designed as remedial math program, test prep or competition math.

[Pen]

 

Quote

Now, having said all that, Bishop's is not a gifted or 2e school.

 

How bad is his adhd after medication?

 Is he extremely impaired by either the hyper end or inattentive? Or by both?

From most of what you have written it seems like a “2E” school would be geared to greater disability level than my image (which could be wrong) of Sacha suggests.  

IME Some schools like Bishop are largely populated by kids at the more gifted end of spectrum, even if there’s no IQ minimum required for entrance.   I don’t have direct knowledge of Bishop itself, but places like Oakwood or Harvard school in Los Angeles, or  Riverdale or Dalton in NYC, or Princeton Country Dayschool ...   aren’t restricted to kids with over ___ IQ, yet in reality I think the majority of the students will be.  

Even the regular, non enriched , non honors and not placed ahead in classes tracks  could  be extremely hard for a kid of average intelligence.  

So in terms of making friends, having high interest material classes still suitable for his age,  and if it could give a $$$ scholarship, Bishop may offer some possibilities — unless social class snobbery of the Uber rich kids negates that.  Which is certainly extremely possible.  And could make such a place a very negative experience.  

 

 

 

3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I love homeschooling's ability to meet kids where they are, both input and output wise.  Kids can absorb info at a younger age without having to produce the output that correlates to that level of input in a formal school setting.  I think this may be where you are ultimately going to have to decide the direction you want to take in the future. There won't be any form of accommodations in a formal environment that will compensate for what is not a disability but a maturation issue (input exceeding output abilities).   It may all come down to the fact that content may be below his abilities but his ability to produce the output that correlates to the level of input is beyond his abilities 

 

 

Yes.  That all sounds true.  

I think a major problem is that SC is feeling unable to pull together homeschooling courses herself , thus looking to outside providers, be that DE, or online classes.  I would guess that there will be several years where the gap between maturation and capacity for EF functions of various types, including input output gap will get worse before maturation and EF starts to catch up...   

How to handle that period is the issue I see.

I know there are some people on Wtm who seem to have quite young children in DE at community colleges etc where it is working or has worked well.  

I am wary though as I had some friends crash and burn from too early trials at doing college.  I think comparatively lower intellectual ability and much higher EF maturity would tend to make a better fit for DE at Cc.  Especially at community colleges I have had experience with, the intellectual rigor, the depth of input,  is not extraordinary, mostly like stepping stones upward from standard public high school in input—but the organizational demands and output requirements are quite high for papers, tests, labs, and so on.  

 

I think asking the IEP SPED people if they have ideas for clubs, groups, programs in the SD area that might fit Sacha well would be worthwhile (even if they don’t know), aside from working out the specifics of the 504/IEP document.  And though he wants to homeschool now, asking if there are any private or public schools they know of that might fit him well at middle or high school level might be useful to have as added possible options.  

 When he started back to brick and mortar public school, the head of SPED at our local school and a couple of teachers  helped to steer my Ds toward some compatible other kids, which was huge for his transition.  So even something like that could be possible— like that they would know that SoandSo might be compatible and is in the robotics club at suchandsuch which maybe a Sacha could join even while homeschooling.  

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Pen

[SeaConquest]

35 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

 

I think you might be right. Compare the mission statement of SDMC:

What is SDMC? Is it like the math club at school? It's an understandable comparison to make, and there are similarities, but there are important differences. SDMC has a strategic mission of reaching the most able and highest achieving mathematics students in the greater San Diego area, and to provide them with instruction and challenges that develop their problem-solving skills. In many cases, SDMC students have few intellectual peers in their traditional schools; for these students SDMC provides an intellectual peer group unlike anything in their school experience. To Fairfax Math Circle: The Fairfax Math Circle (FMC) is a math enrichment program that focuses on exploration and problem-solving. It is a program dedicated to providing opportunities for motivated students to develop a deeper understanding and appreciation of math. We seek to broaden our students' perception of what it means to do mathematics and to be a mathematician. We provide students with the tools to play with mathematics in a deeper way, and with an environment in which they feel comfortable exploring new and challenging things. We work to expose them to math concepts they would not normally be exposed to in a tradition school setting. FMC is not designed as remedial math program, test prep or competition math.

 

Yes, and read what they say about the kids needing to develop an academic resume to stay in the group. What does that even mean?

https://docs.google.com/a/sdmathcircle.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=c2RtYXRoY2lyY2xlLm9yZ3xtYWlufGd4OjcwY2I5ZmJlOWQyZmEwYzM

Edited April 7, 2019 by SeaConquest

[8filltheheart]

40 minutes ago, Pen said:

That all sounds true.  

I think a major problem is that SC is feeling unable to pull together homeschooling courses herself , thus looking to outside providers, be that DE, or online classes.  I would guess that there will be several years where the gap between maturation and capacity for EF functions of various types, including input output gap will get worse before maturation and EF starts to catch up...   

How to handle that period is the issue I see.

That was my point.

There is not necessarily going to be a good fit answer, so which least poor fit option may be what it ultimately comes down.

Edited April 7, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[SeaConquest]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

How bad is his adhd after medication?

 Is he extremely impaired by either the hyper end or inattentive? Or by both?

From most of what you have written it seems like a “2E” school would be geared to greater disability level than my image (which could be wrong) of Sacha suggests.  

IME Some schools like Bishop are largely populated by kids at the more gifted end of spectrum, even if there’s no IQ minimum required for entrance.   I don’t have direct knowledge of Bishop itself, but places like Oakwood or Harvard school in Los Angeles, or  Riverdale or Dalton in NYC, or Princeton Country Dayschool ...   aren’t restricted to kids with over ___ IQ, yet in reality I think the majority of the students will be.  

Even the regular, non enriched , non honors and not placed ahead in classes tracks  could  be extremely hard for a kid of average intelligence.  

So in terms of making friends, having high interest material classes still suitable for his age,  and if it could give a $$$ scholarship, Bishop may offer some possibilities — unless social class snobbery of the Uber rich kids negates that.  Which is certainly extremely possible.  And could make such a place a very negative experience.  

 

Yes.  That all sounds true.  

I think a major problem is that SC is feeling unable to pull together homeschooling courses herself , thus looking to outside providers, be that DE, or online classes.  I would guess that there will be several years where the gap between maturation and capacity for EF functions of various types, including input output gap will get worse before maturation and EF starts to catch up...   

How to handle that period is the issue I see.

I know there are some people on Wtm who seem to have quite young children in DE at community colleges etc where it is working or has worked well.  

I am wary though as I had some friends crash and burn from too early trials at doing college.  I think comparatively lower intellectual ability and much higher EF maturity would tend to make a better fit for DE at Cc.  Especially at community colleges I have had experience with, the intellectual rigor, the depth of input,  is not extraordinary, mostly like stepping stones upward from standard public high school in input—but the organizational demands and output requirements are quite high for papers, tests, labs, and so on.  

 

I think asking the IEP SPED people if they have ideas for clubs, groups, programs in the SD area that might fit Sacha well would be worthwhile (even if they don’t know), aside from working out the specifics of the 504/IEP document.  And though he wants to homeschool now, asking if there are any private or public schools they know of that might fit him well at middle or high school level might be useful to have as added possible options.  

 When he started back to brick and mortar public school, the head of SPED at our local school and a couple of teachers  helped to steer my Ds toward some compatible other kids, which was huge for his transition.  So even something like that could be possible— like that they would know that SoandSo might be compatible and is in the robotics club at suchandsuch which maybe a Sacha could join even while homeschooling.  

 

 

I don't think his ADHD is that bad. I put off the eval because I didn't think he was really debilitated by it. It was my friend/his teacher who really nudged me to get the dx because she explained to me that she, indeed, was seeing demonstrable negative effects in the classroom and with his peer relationships. That finally led me to act. But, on the scale of ADHD kids, I would not classify him as a severe case.

And I think that you are right about this coming middle school age being the crux of the issue for me. I am worried that he won't have the EF skills for a college environment, but I am also not sure what else to do with him. I can revisit Bishop's with my DH, but that's a mighty big pill to swallow for us financially (not sure it is even doable, even with the help of our families/scholarships), and that's IF he can get in (a VERY big if -- it is extremely selective -- and he may very well choke on the entrance exam).

https://www.bishops.com/admissions/affording-bishops

So, as much as I've always wanted him in a school like that, I don't see Bishop's as a panacea. I need to be realistic, and that will likely mean finding a path forward through our homeschooling journey.

 

[SanDiegoMom]

11 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Yes, and read what they say about the kids needing to develop an academic resume to stay in the group. What does that even mean?

https://docs.google.com/a/sdmathcircle.org/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=c2RtYXRoY2lyY2xlLm9yZ3xtYWlufGd4OjcwY2I5ZmJlOWQyZmEwYzM

Oh my, reading that really makes me so sad.  I didn't think that's what math circles were for.  That's so disappointing, honestly! 

[Pen]

It looks like applying for college and college financial aid!

 

[SeaConquest]

1 minute ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

Oh my, reading that really makes me so sad.  I didn't think that's what math circles were for.  That's so disappointing, honestly! 

 

Right?! Soooooo high pressure! And we wonder why kids are stepping in front of trains. I don't want that for him. It's just too intense. Or, at least, that is the message whoever wrote that stuff is sending. Like I said, he is already around these poor Tiger kids at AoPS; I am not sure I want him internalizing more of it somewhere else.

To give you an example, I was on a panel at AoPS Academy when they were beta testing BA Online. They were soliciting feedback from the parents on how it was going for their kids.

Here's my feedback: My kid really hates it when he misses 3 questions, and then has to start the whole lesson all over again. He feels like all of his work was wasted. In the workbook, your work is never gone. You miss a question, but you don't have to start all over again from scratch.

Example of one Tiger parent's feedback: I don't think you should be allowed to have two chances on a question. If you miss it once, that should be it. There are no second chances in life. That's what the kids need to learn.

[SeaConquest]

14 minutes ago, Pen said:

It looks like applying for college and college financial aid!

 

 

It is. Getting into Bishop's or Francis Parker (its rival) is a big deal in SD. Just like getting into elite NY private schools are a big deal there. It's a huge deal in society circles, and we are definitely not society people. Our friends sold their business for $80 million and now their kids all attend Parker to the tune of over 100k/year. It's just a whole other world. My kid lives at a campground in a 5th wheel part of the year and on a sailboat the other part of the year. How is that going to go over in La Jolla? Not sure.

Edited April 7, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Pen]

38 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Right?! Soooooo high pressure! And we wonder why kids are stepping in front of trains. I don't want that for him. It's just too intense. Or, at least, that is the message whoever wrote that stuff is sending. Like I said, he is already around these poor Tiger kids at AoPS; I am not sure I want him internalizing more of it somewhere else.

To give you an example, I was on a panel at AoPS Academy when they were beta testing BA Online. They were soliciting feedback from the parents on how it was going for their kids.

Here's my feedback: My kid really hates it when he misses 3 questions, and then has to start the whole lesson all over again. He feels like all of his work was wasted. In the workbook, your work is never gone. You miss a question, but you don't have to start all over again from scratch.

Example of one Tiger parent's feedback: I don't think you should be allowed to have two chances on a question. If you miss it once, that should be it. There are no second chances in life. That's what the kids need to learn.

 

32 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

It is. Getting into Bishop's or Francis Parker (its rival) is a big deal in SD. Just like getting into elite NY private schools are a big deal there. It's a huge deal in society circles, and we are definitely not society people. Our friends sold their business for $80 million and now their kids all attend Parker to the tune of over 100k/year. It's just a whole other world. My kid lives at a campground in a 5th wheel part of the year and on a sailboat the other part of the year. How is that going to go over in La Jolla? Not sure.

 

Aaaaack!  Insert emoji for running away screaming!  

[Arcadia]

Since Sacha has a strong interest in flying, FairProspects thread might be useful to follow for ideas.

Help with long term course planning (STEM/Math/Science)? By FairProspects,  August 19, 2018 in High School and Self-Education Board https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/677567-help-with-long-term-course-planning-stemmathscience/

 

 

[SeaConquest]

11 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Since Sacha has a strong interest in flying, FairProspects thread might be useful to follow for ideas.

Help with long term course planning (STEM/Math/Science)? By FairProspects,  August 19, 2018 in High School and Self-Education Board https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/677567-help-with-long-term-course-planning-stemmathscience/

 

 

 

Thank you. I had not seen that thread. One of our local CCs has an AA program in Aviation Operations, so that has also been in the buffet as a possibility for DE classes:

https://www.sdmiramar.edu/programs/aviation-operations

[SeaConquest]

Also, the Civil Air Patrol Squadron near us has won many awards for being one of the best in the state and is led by a woman (!!!!), so I am hopeful that he will make friends and get good training from them:

http://sq144.cawgcap.org/

[Pen]

4 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I could be wrong, but that was just the impression that I got reading their materials. It is competitive to be accepted, then it seems you have to prove you are a fit the first year or two that you are a member. Maybe I am reading into it, but it does not seem low key. Plus, when I showed my husband, he felt like he would have zero time for a relationship with Sacha because, along with S's AoPS Academy class, it would basically eat up our entire weekend and have the kid in academic stuff almost 7 days/week. Steve thinks it is too much. Like I said, I haven't talked to Sacha about it yet.

http://www.sdmathcircle.org/home 

 

I think family time is hugely important.  

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Also, the Civil Air Patrol Squadron near us has won many awards for being one of the best in the state and is led by a woman (!!!!), so I am hopeful that he will make friends and get good training from them:

http://sq144.cawgcap.org/

 

 

I hope that that will work well.  And I’d recommend that you try it and try to get Sacha to be open minded and give it a chance.

my Ds was interested, but then rebelled because the project he experienced when he visited seemed babyish and stupid (making a paper airplane, iirc), and too much emphasis on exactly how cover should be worn and shoes polished and bars aligned.  I thought it was good and his posture had improvement in just one meeting, but it was a no go for us.  

[Runningmom80]

On 4/6/2019 at 6:17 AM, 8FillTheHeart said:

I know you are struggling right now, so I very, very gently wanted to share that our path forward with our children is absolutely the opposite of what you are describing. I am the exact opposite of a competitive mom, and it is a good thing bc my kids all suffer from varying degrees of anxiety. Interiorly I evaluate my kids and set my expectations for them based on their abilities and ages, but exteriorly when interacting with them, I always try to encourage and not let them worry or focus on their struggles.

(I want to emphasize the ages portion......when I share on the forums that my goal is for my younger kids to play, it is true. For example, my 3rd grader's day (she is seemingly the most gifted of all of our kids) resembles something like this: 45 mins of silent reading, spelling, a TC lesson, 15-25 mins each of me reading her a history book and a science book, about 30-45 mins of math (she is currently in Horizons 5 and does 2-3 HOE problems per day), religion, and violin. That is it. She flies through everything without a single struggle and runs off to play. Could she do more? Probably, but why? She is doing all she needs to for a 9 yr old from my perspective. I don't care about the future as much as I care about her being 9.)

When ds was in 4th grade, he still wasn't reading on grade level. I had to read him his math books until he was in 6th grade when he finally started to be able to handle reading everything on his own.. (I think in 4th grade he was in MUS's alg and geo book which was mostly white space and took him maybe 25 mins per lesson.) In 4th grade, there is zero focus on "challenge" and definitely no thought toward high school, testing, or DE.  The focus is more on developing appropriate skills for their individual abilities based on minimal time and being done so they can go and play. 

Ds did 1 yr of Math Counts in 8th and did it mainly bc he wanted to be around other kids who like math. He took 1 AMC and never did another. He disliked contest math and didn't want to participate, so he didn't. His choice. His first AoPS class wasn't until March of 8th grade. He didn't take any formal science until 8th grade (before that, he just read whatever books he wanted to read on whatever topics he wanted). Bc he was so delayed in reading due to his dyslexia, his first real writing assignments didn't start until 5th grade. He took his first ACT in 8th for camp. He didn't DE until 11th. His only APs were BC and chemistry in 10th. His advanced courses didn't really start until 11th, when he was 16. He took 2 math and 2 physics in 11th and 3 math and 3 physics in 12th. And it was totally under his self-motivation and had nothing to do with me.

Dd didn't DE until 2nd semester of 12th. She only took the PSAT in 11th and sat for the SAT one time after that. She took no APs. She tells me now that she misses homeschooling bc she misses the freedom to explore topics at a depth she wants vs a classroom pace. Again, she did what she did in a very low key environment and did it bc she wanted to. 

Both are non-competitive. They just do their thing bc they enjoy doing what they do. If I had pushed them toward excelling or competitive activities, both would have been incredibly stressed. (They both get overly stressed during finals week, etc.) Performing on demand is loathe to them. They do it when they have to and do fine, but they absolutely do not like it! 8th grade is the youngest they ever faced a stressful academic testing environment.

All that to say, your ds doesn't need to perform in 4th. He doesn't need to "prove" anything. He can just be 10 and be himself. No pressure. No analyzing where he should be next yr or the yr after. No worries about DE at age 12 or this by this age and that by that age. He can just be him. He will end up exactly where he needs to be for him. 

Listening to my adult children discuss their childhoods, kids take things seriously and hold on to them interiorly in a way we are often unaware as parents. Your long-term relationship with him is going to matter way more to you both n the future than if he remembered that 10 was the cube root of 1000. In the scheme of their lives, he is 10. Age 10 should trump everything, and definitely over the answer 10.

I hope you can read this in the tone of concerned friend that I am posting bc I am not being at all critical, but concerned for you. I hope you can give your relationship with him the gift of trying to understand why you care about his wrong answers when he is just a little boy and they are just answers to questions in a stressful for him situation.

 

I just wanted to chime in and say this is a gem of a post. I'm cp'ing it to read regularly. 🙂

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll throw out a thought here, not that I know if it has ANY bearing or not. Does your current location/living situation leave him kind of bored, so that maybe he's doing more of some things because he can't do others? 

Like my ds has his academics, but he also goes outside and chops vines, has a fort he built from found trees and scraps, is learning to shoot (he's really good at trap, like better than most men), etc. He's just sort of busy with his things he does, kwim? And my dd had her sewing and crafting and would create things endlessly. But this takes space or access or junk lying around that inspires them, kwim? 

I just find kids do what they have exposure to. You see that with majors too, where they go to college saying one thing and are like whoa you mean I had all these other options??

I don't know, like the boat lifestyle seems really cool to me. You've listed a lot of structured activities. I'm just thinking he could be precocious but BORED and that maybe he needs some space to find additional things he'd like to do. Like raise goats or something, kwim? Like most highly intelligent people have LOTS of things they do. Unless they have restricted interests, they'll do academics AND music AND theater AND compete in something AND train their dogs AND become little professional chefs, kwim? 

And then a total total rabbit trail, only because it's a pet interest for me. Was there an explanation for his growth delay? Did they run genetics? With interesting physical presentation plus the NVLD pattern to his IQ scores and possibly some restricted interests (or opportunities?) makes you wonder what would come up if they ran genetics. 

I don't know, I'm not really one to assume the parent is doing a bad job. The curiosity to me is whether he's choosing to put so much energy into certain areas and not diversify due to restricted interests or lack of opportunity and then whether it's personality (bah) or part of a larger pattern. 

My ds' restricted interests LOOK like a lot of interests until you step back and realize there are connecting threads. 

Whatever, just throwing out ideas. But I think it's important to know *why* something is happening before you go blaming yourself.

Adding: I think there's research on the value of unstructured activities. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by PeterPan

[SanDiegoMom]

15 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Example of one Tiger parent's feedback: I don't think you should be allowed to have two chances on a question. If you miss it once, that should be it. There are no second chances in life. That's what the kids need to learn.

I think if I met any parents who said that I would give them the link to this article posted below -- a shining example of how life DOES give you second, third, and fourth chances as long as you are willing to not accept failure and keep putting in the work! I have to admit this woman's story made me cry. Then read it to my son (doing math at the time) and then cry again. 🙂 . 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/sarah-seales-how-i-discovered-love-of-math

 

[PeterPan]

11 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I think if I met any parents who said that

Not to mention they've clearly never read any research on how learning works. 

It seems like their goal is something mental, rather than the academic content, and we all decide how we want to live and what we value. Like living on a boat, that seems to me like it might have had some philosophy behind it of how op wants to live, what she values. Sometimes it's really easy to get caught up in someone else's and forget our own. Our time with our kids is very short, that's for sure. 

[PeterPan]

18 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom in VA said:

I think if I met any parents who said that I would give them the link to this article posted below -- a shining example of how life DOES give you second, third, and fourth chances as long as you are willing to not accept failure and keep putting in the work! I have to admit this woman's story made me cry. Then read it to my son (doing math at the time) and then cry again. 🙂 . 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/news/articles/sarah-seales-how-i-discovered-love-of-math

 

What a great story!! I love this line from the article. It's so spot-on for our kids who are all over the place. She had these more advanced abilities and these holes in basics, much like our kids with disabilities.

 " I started learning all these beautiful things I had never learned before, like matrices, absolute value, and the rational roots theorem."

[Arcadia]

I don’t know if you told Sacha his scores. You have quite a few Facebook posts on the WTM forums, it is easy for anyone to know Sacha’s scores and other information without asking you for that information since people in real life can match your full name to your username here. My BIL and his wife overshared on Facebook over the years and it’s hurting his 16 year old daughter who is repeating a grade now. 

I remembered you mentioning about Mensa camps for Sacha. I don’t know if he has qualified previously but he does qualify using his current WISC FSIQ score.

[Pen]

If meeting hasn’t already happened, maybe put your specific list of what you plan to ask for on 504/IEP type document and also other questions and points to raise for feedback if time—then maybe we can add other ideas that might be missed.

 

so far, I think:

time and a half on exams (with a midpoint movement break? Snack break?) 

being allowed to type or use voice to text in place of hand writing 

 

 

[PeterPan]

On the privacy thing, I had that problem because people IRL I seldom saw were coming up to me saying things. People who really want to dig will still find out your identity using IP addresses and all that, but if your actual names are in there you completely lose your anonymity on even the most basic level. So yes, it's pretty logical to assume that if you've been using the dc's real name and locations and scores that when he goes places people will mention it. People who don't homeschool read these boards and tons of people lurk. People lurk whom you wouldn't even expect (professors, chiropractors, researchers, etc.). We're kind of a curiosity to them, lol. No apparently we sometimes say something useful.

 

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

On the privacy thing, I had that problem because people IRL I seldom saw were coming up to me saying things. People who really want to dig will still find out your identity using IP addresses and all that, but if your actual names are in there you completely lose your anonymity on even the most basic level. So yes, it's pretty logical to assume that if you've been using the dc's real name and locations and scores that when he goes places people will mention it. People who don't homeschool read these boards and tons of people lurk. People lurk whom you wouldn't even expect (professors, chiropractors, researchers, etc.). We're kind of a curiosity to them, lol. No apparently we sometimes say something useful.

 

We move a lot and people we meet in new locations will often (even months later!!) tell me that they "knew" me when we first met. Not many families have the profile of 8 kids with the 2nd oldest being autistic.  Now I often enter into new homeschooling relationships wondering if they already "know" me.

Edited April 8, 2019 by 8FillTheHeart

[Pen]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'll throw out a thought here, not that I know if it has ANY bearing or not. Does your current location/living situation leave him kind of bored, so that maybe he's doing more of some things because he can't do others? 

Like my ds has his academics, but he also goes outside and chops vines, has a fort he built from found trees and scraps, is learning to shoot (he's really good at trap, like better than most men), etc. He's just sort of busy with his things he does, kwim? And my dd had her sewing and crafting and would create things endlessly. But this takes space or access or junk lying around that inspires them, kwim? 

I just find kids do what they have exposure to. You see that with majors too, where they go to college saying one thing and are like whoa you mean I had all these other options??

I don't know, like the boat lifestyle seems really cool to me. You've listed a lot of structured activities. I'm just thinking he could be precocious but BORED and that maybe he needs some space to find additional things he'd like to do. Like raise goats or something, kwim? Like most highly intelligent people have LOTS of things they do. Unless they have restricted interests, they'll do academics AND music AND theater AND compete in something AND train their dogs AND become little professional chefs, kwim? 

And then a total total rabbit trail, only because it's a pet interest for me. Was there an explanation for his growth delay? Did they run genetics? With interesting physical presentation plus the NVLD pattern to his IQ scores and possibly some restricted interests (or opportunities?) makes you wonder what would come up if they ran genetics. 

I don't know, I'm not really one to assume the parent is doing a bad job. The curiosity to me is whether he's choosing to put so much energy into certain areas and not diversify due to restricted interests or lack of opportunity and then whether it's personality (bah) or part of a larger pattern. 

My ds' restricted interests LOOK like a lot of interests until you step back and realize there are connecting threads. 

Whatever, just throwing out ideas. But I think it's important to know *why* something is happening before you go blaming yourself.

Adding: I think there's research on the value of unstructured activities. 

 

From what’s been posted , I don’t see an extreme narrowness of interests.  Everyone is affected by location.  People who live on a farm in a landlocked area can possibly  raise goats, but can’t easily learn to sail.

 He has interests in astronomy, outdoors activities, perhaps swimming, has at least tried music, will be trying CAP...  

ETA I learned to sail solo on little 14’ or so catamarans in SD bay at around Sacha’s age .  Just on occasional trips to SD from LA/OC parts of California.  It was lots of fun, though more fun with a friend than alone...  things like that are possible there—don’t know if he’s doing that or if the 2 year physical delay makes something like that a problem.  Or changes in view of what a child can safely do alone in the 21st century maybe would make it impossible now.       Astronomy is very possible to start as hobby or perhaps someday vocation in SD area.  Where I live now in PNW there are astronomy groups, but skies are rarely clear enough to see anything beyond  dense low clouds. No great observatories here.  If Sacha were drawn to animals, he could probably volunteer with dogs, or do kid groups at zoo or safari type places.  If he were drawn to music he could probably sit on the deck of the boat and play guitar, violin, flute, or even a portable keyboard.  

Edited April 8, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

However, as another 504 question— might being able to participate in some group sport for fun at his physical development level rather than his age level be possible to ask for and potentially helpful?  

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'll throw out a thought here, not that I know if it has ANY bearing or not. Does your current location/living situation leave him kind of bored, so that maybe he's doing more of some things because he can't do others? 

Like my ds has his academics, but he also goes outside and chops vines, has a fort he built from found trees and scraps, is learning to shoot (he's really good at trap, like better than most men), etc. He's just sort of busy with his things he does, kwim? And my dd had her sewing and crafting and would create things endlessly. But this takes space or access or junk lying around that inspires them, kwim? 

I just find kids do what they have exposure to. You see that with majors too, where they go to college saying one thing and are like whoa you mean I had all these other options??

I don't know, like the boat lifestyle seems really cool to me. You've listed a lot of structured activities. I'm just thinking he could be precocious but BORED and that maybe he needs some space to find additional things he'd like to do. Like raise goats or something, kwim? Like most highly intelligent people have LOTS of things they do. Unless they have restricted interests, they'll do academics AND music AND theater AND compete in something AND train their dogs AND become little professional chefs, kwim? 

And then a total total rabbit trail, only because it's a pet interest for me. Was there an explanation for his growth delay? Did they run genetics? With interesting physical presentation plus the NVLD pattern to his IQ scores and possibly some restricted interests (or opportunities?) makes you wonder what would come up if they ran genetics. 

I don't know, I'm not really one to assume the parent is doing a bad job. The curiosity to me is whether he's choosing to put so much energy into certain areas and not diversify due to restricted interests or lack of opportunity and then whether it's personality (bah) or part of a larger pattern. 

My ds' restricted interests LOOK like a lot of interests until you step back and realize there are connecting threads. 

Whatever, just throwing out ideas. But I think it's important to know *why* something is happening before you go blaming yourself.

Adding: I think there's research on the value of unstructured activities. 

 

I realize that you haven't followed Sacha as much as the others on the AL board, so it might appear that his interests are narrow, but I really don't think that is the case at all. In fact, I usually call him a dabbler or a Renaissance man because his interests are so broad. He loves Mythology, D&D/RPGs, strategy games, video games, he's played soccer in the past (but his team was pushing him to be on the uber competitive travel team, which did not interest him) and still goes to soccer camps for fun, he likes laser tag, he goes to lifeguard camp (and jumped off the pier last summer), he wants to get a black belt, he likes snorkeling with his dad and wants to get his scuba certification this year now that he is old enough, he's been to sailing camp, but finds sailing solo to be too lonely (but he wouldn't mind being part of a larger sailing team), he likes chess and plays with me whenever I'm in the mood, he's been to tennis camps and wants to try out squash, he's been in theatre camps and was one of the few boys in several performances, he's been to surf camp for several summers, he plays dodgeball at our campground several times per week with a group of kids, takes gymnastics, does homeschool PE class, he loves big roller coasters and water slides like his parents (and we have season passes), he wants to learn wilderness survival and get his private pilot's license, he is a voracious reader (mostly fiction), he plays guitar, he makes pottery, clay, and basic woodworking kinds of stuff in his tinkering class, he has built a skittle sorting EV3 robot with his dad, he sings in a choir at his charter school (and has a recital this weekend). I am sure I am forgetting other things. That's just off the top of my head. So, yes, he has a STEM focus, but I actually think he is a very well-rounded kid with a lot of cool interests.

Having said that, we live on the beach in San Diego. He isn't going to hunt or just frolic unfettered in acres of woods. We moved to this campground expressly so that the kids could free range. We used to live a few miles up the hill and our area was so urban that the kids couldn't even ride bikes. All the kids in the neighborhood were so structured, the playgrounds were always empty and no one ever just wandered the neighborhood to see if other kids wanted to play. Where we live now is as close to the unstructured and largely unsupervised 70s childhood that I can give my kids in a big city without people calling CPS on me (and yes, that has happened before). Believe me, that last thing I want to do is live in a 5th wheel. But, the kids love it and beg me everyday to stay here because they love the freedom.    

Edited April 8, 2019 by SeaConquest

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

participate in some group sport for fun at his physical development level rather than his age level

If she's considering that, she might post on Chat and see what the Hive thinks. That sounds like something men see their therapists about years later, lol. 

Lotsa short gymnasts btw...

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

Where we live now is as close to the unstructured and largely unsupervised 70s childhood that I can give my kids in a big city without people calling CPS on me (and yes, that has happened before). Believe me, that last thing I want to do is live in a 5th wheel. But, the kids love it and beg me everyday to stay here because they love the freedom.    

Oh good, that's what I was trying to figure out or had forgotten! He has room to move and raw materials to just sort of be free. That's so healthy. Like you say, not everything should be so structured and busy. Boredom leads to that invention and problem solving. 

[Pen]

What is Millenial Tech Middle School?  

And could an IEP/504 allow him to take individual classes with an area public school while still mainly homeschooling?

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

he wants to learn wilderness survival

Can this get him into a group with more boys?

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I don’t know if you told Sacha his scores. You have quite a few Facebook posts on the WTM forums, it is easy for anyone to know Sacha’s scores and other information without asking you for that information since people in real life can match your full name to your username here. My BIL and his wife overshared on Facebook over the years and it’s hurting his 16 year old daughter who is repeating a grade now. 

I remembered you mentioning about Mensa camps for Sacha. I don’t know if he has qualified previously but he does qualify using his current WISC FSIQ score.

 

I don't think it was me that talked about Mensa camp. I don't know anything about those.

I did discuss with Sacha that he scored very high in some areas and had difficulty with slow processing, which is what we suspected. I told him that we are having a meeting about it to see if we could find ways to help him. I also reminded him that this was just a snapshot of his brain at this moment in time. We've discussed many times that our brains are plastic and that he will grow and change.

I posted links to FB that I currently have set to public, but I usually change them back to private. The reality is that, on a message board like this, where people communicate over a period of years, people really can find out who you are if they are set on it. I will likely go back later and delete things relating to the kids, like test scores, etc. that are uber personal.  

[Pen]

 

Quote

he's been to sailing camp, but finds sailing solo to be too lonely (but he wouldn't mind being part of a larger sailing team),

 

SD has Thistle class sailing teams (an all age thing, though most people will be adults).  Thistles are small 3 person boats that race in bays and lakes.  lightweight teenagers to be at front spinnaker position were prized if they could manage the sail without weighting down the boat like a big adult.  It takes a certain amount of strength, but I could do it as a girl.  Also the front person watches for little ripples and other signs of where breeze might give a speed advantage and tells the skipper.  If he has any interest and you start mentioning it to people, by the time he is strong enough to do it he might be snatched up by a skipper who would like a teen crew member.   

ETA, Bernoulli effect sailing sail shape and airplane wing shape are related so sailing and flying may also complement each other.  

Edited April 8, 2019 by Pen

[SeaConquest]

20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Oh good, that's what I was trying to figure out or had forgotten! He has room to move and raw materials to just sort of be free. That's so healthy. Like you say, not everything should be so structured and busy. Boredom leads to that invention and problem solving. 

 

Like I said, visuals help me. It's hard to picture what we are talking about. We live 25 feet from Mission Bay.

https://www.campland.com/

We have a speed boat, that we keep at Campland, that we can use to enjoy Mission Bay. My husband likes to scare the crap out of our friends and their kids by towing them behind the speedboat. The kids all love it. Anyway, we can take the speedboat 10 minutes away to our big boat, which is the sailboat (2 bedrooms, 2 baths -- just like the RV) that we keep over at the Hyatt. The Hyatt is where we spend the summers (because Campland doesn't have monthly rates in summer, so we park the RV). The pool at the Hyatt has waterslides, they show movies at night at the pool, they make smores by the firepit, Sea World used to have fireworks every night, but now just some nights. Anyways, the kids don't love it as much as Campland, but they spend all day at summer camp and then chill out or play at the pool when they get home. We are usually out and about on weekends anyway, so it's not like they are stuck in a boat all day.

https://www.hyatt.com/en-US/hotel/california/hyatt-regency-mission-bay-spa-and-marina/sanis/photos-reviews

Edited April 8, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I don't think it was me that talked about Mensa camp. I don't know anything about those.

 

 

[SeaConquest]

21 minutes ago, Pen said:

What is Millenial Tech Middle School?  

And could an IEP/504 allow him to take individual classes with an area public school while still mainly homeschooling?

 

I've never heard of it. Just one of the many magnet schools we have in SD Unified. It's in the Lincoln cluster, which isn't one of the best. We are in coastal SD, which is where the better public schools are located. We are also technically "homeless" under federal law because we live in our RV, so we could theoretically enroll the kids in any public school we wanted.

[SeaConquest]

Just now, Arcadia said:

 

 

 

Oh, that's right, they had a conference here in SD. I was thinking that he could make some friends when they had the conference in town. Dang girl, you have such a good memory!

[SeaConquest]

23 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Can this get him into a group with more boys?

 

I was looking into wilderness training that was run by a guy that trains some of the special ops folks. It was more specialized weekend or week-long training vs. something like Boy Scouts, which would not work for us for a variety of reasons. They've tried to put together alternative groups here, but none of have really taken off, to my knowledge.

[Pen]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I've never heard of it. Just one of the many magnet schools we have in SD Unified. It's in the Lincoln cluster, which isn't one of the best. We are in coastal SD, which is where the better public schools are located. We are also technically "homeless" under federal law because we live in our RV, so we could theoretically enroll the kids in any public school we wanted.

 

Can he get permission for just a class or two in public school?  Where maybe he could take a middle school or high school lab science next year such that you would not have to figure out how to do it as teacher, but he would not have a potential ‘bad’ grade as permanently on his record as if you used CC ?

 I am trying to think of things an IEP could give that could help for the next couple of years.  

[SeaConquest]

16 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

SD has Thistle class sailing teams (an all age thing, though most people will be adults).  Thistles are small 3 person boats that race in bays and lakes.  lightweight teenagers to be at front spinnaker position were prized if they could manage the sail without weighting down the boat like a big adult.  It takes a certain amount of strength, but I could do it as a girl.  Also the front person watches for little ripples and other signs of where breeze might give a speed advantage and tells the skipper.  If he has any interest and you start mentioning it to people, by the time he is strong enough to do it he might be snatched up by a skipper who would like a teen crew member.   

ETA, Bernoulli effect sailing sail shape and airplane wing shape are related so sailing and flying may also complement each other.  

 

I will check it out. He went to summer camp at Mission Bay Yacht Club last summer, and it was just OK. They do have more advanced classes that have two-man teams, but I think he needs to be a bit older, so we back-burnered it for now. I will look into the Thistle class. I have never heard of that.

[Pen]

Once he is 12 we have a great wilderness one week summer camp thing up here in the cascades. 

[SeaConquest]

Just now, Pen said:

 

Can he get permission for just a class or two in public school?  Where maybe he could take a middle school or high school lab science next year such that you would not have to figure out how to do it as teacher, but he would not have a potential ‘bad’ grade as permanently on his record as if you used CC ?

 I am trying to think of things an IEP could give that could help for the next couple of years.  

 

He is in public school. He attends a public charter. I can ask them about putting him in their lab science section at the charter. They have been resistant in the past because they feel like the bigger kids will be a bad influence on him. 

[SeaConquest]

Just now, Pen said:

Once he is 12 we have a great wilderness one week summer camp thing up here in the cascades. 

 

If you have a link, I would appreciate it. This is the guy that I talked to that said that he would be happy to work with him:

https://www.californiasurvivaltraining.com/

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I will check it out. He went to summer camp at Mission Bay Yacht Club last summer, and it was just OK. They do have more advanced classes that have two-man teams, but I think he needs to be a bit older, so we back-burnered it for now. I will look into the Thistle class. I have never heard of that.

 

http://www.thistleclass.com/home/about-the-thistle

 

I was fortunate to get on a Thistle the first time with an excellent sailor in around his 70s, after that year’s competitions had ended so it was very low key at that point...    one skipper I raced with later was rather a jerk, so that can happen too

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

If meeting hasn’t already happened, maybe put your specific list of what you plan to ask for on 504/IEP type document and also other questions and points to raise for feedback if time—then maybe we can add other ideas that might be missed.

 

so far, I think:

time and a half on exams (with a midpoint movement break? Snack break?) 

being allowed to type or use voice to text in place of hand writing 

 

 

 

This is what I have written down for tomorrow:

Re accommodations:

Allow him to sit in the front of class

Allow the use of computer to type assignments and tests

Allow the use of Latex or other software for math assignments

Allow extended time on tests, quizzes, and for assignments

Allow frequent breaks during exams and when needed during class

Provide a quiet environment for exams to reduce distractions and improve focus

Allow the use of headphones and/or music during exams to reduce distractions and improve focus

Shorten repetitive homework assignments (e.g. even or odd problems) or limit the time spent on homework to demonstrate mastery

Break down assignments into smaller pieces with manageable deadlines

Provide an outline of the lesson, a copy of the teacher's notes, or study guides with answers already filled in

Allow the recording of lectures and the use of speech-to-text software

Eliminate unnecessary clerical tasks (transcribing math assignments from textbook to worksheet)

Re thoughts for discussion/changes to IEP writeup:

Document low processing with pen and paper tasks to show the need for accommodations relating to typing etc. Coding score evidence. Does the student do poorly on the test because of the fine motor issues? OR are the fine motor issues actually just a symptom of the brain difference that makes that coding test difficult? Meaning that the fine motor issues are caused by the low processing.

The fact that his WJ scores did not increase appreciably since the last administration, even though he is now on medication is evidence that he needs the accommodations. For example, if the WJ had been broken up to allow for breaks/extra time, he likely would have scored higher. On the math section, some things stood out to me immediately. The comment that he missed the cube root of 1000 and slope of a line questions -- both of which he knows. He likely just spaced out at the end of the test because of the cumulative effects of ADHD and slow processing.

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

If you have a link, I would appreciate it. This is the guy that I talked to that said that he would be happy to work with him:

https://www.californiasurvivaltraining.com/

 

 

I can’t make link work .  It is Northwest Youth Corps Adventure Camp for 12-15 year olds.    Google should bring it up for you.  Less intense than what you posted, but my son learned a huge amount and had a great time.   Map reading, compass use, knots, cooking, tent pitching, leave no trace camping, etc. and a river rafting day ...  they also got to see a bunch of really cool geological things (lava tubes, strange rivers ... glacier...) 

[SeaConquest]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

I can’t make link work .  It is Northwest Youth Corps Adventure Camp for 12-15 year olds.    Google should bring it up for you.  Less intense than what you posted, but my son learned a huge amount and had a great time.   Map reading, compass use, knots, cooking, tent pitching, leave no trace camping, etc. and a river rafting day ...  they also got to see a bunch of really cool geological things (lava tubes, strange rivers ... glacier...) 

 

That all sounds really amazing. I bet he would love it. He's never been river rafting. I went once on the Kern River in the Spring, after the snow melted in the Sierras, and it was INSANE. I vowed never again! We were supposed to go on a cruise to Alaska this year, but had to cancel when my nursing school stuff interfered. My parents live an hour outside of Seattle, and my mom's twin sister lives in Eugene, so we always have them to help if he wants to do stuff up in the PNW. (I've been trying to convince my husband to buy rental property in Bend.)

Edited April 8, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

That all sounds really amazing. I bet he would love it. He's never been river rafting. I went once on the Kern River in the Spring, after the snow melted in the Sierras, and it was INSANE. I vowed never again! We were supposed to go on a cruise to Alaska this year, but had to cancel when my nursing school stuff interfered. My parents live an hour outside of Seattle, and my mom's twin sister lives in Eugene, so we always have them to help if he wants to do stuff up in the PNW. (I've been trying to convince my husband to buy rental property in Bend.)

 

The departure base camp was in Eugene. Especially with family there, I highly recommend it.  

 

  I think the river was the MacKenzie for their last day and it was early summer so fairly high water, but not too intense.   If Sacha does it I recommend a mini travel chess set, playing cards, and a good book amongst supplies .    

Though lacking some of these that they wish they had apparently they invented some games for down time.    We didn’t pack realizing down time entertainment would be desirable, but especially Ds and a girl in his group apparently got up earlier than rest of group and learned they both were chess players but didn’t have a set along.  🙂  course a set could go along and it turn out not to be needed sort of like no rain if you’ve got an umbrella.

[Pen]

47 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

This is what I have written down for tomorrow:

Re accommodations:

Allow him to sit in the front of class

Allow the use of computer to type assignments and tests

Allow the use of Latex or other software for math assignments

Allow extended time on tests, quizzes, and for assignments

Allow frequent breaks during exams and when needed during class

Provide a quiet environment for exams to reduce distractions and improve focus

Allow the use of headphones and/or music during exams to reduce distractions and improve focus

Shorten repetitive homework assignments (e.g. even or odd problems) or limit the time spent on homework to demonstrate mastery

Break down assignments into smaller pieces with manageable deadlines

Provide an outline of the lesson, a copy of the teacher's notes, or study guides with answers already filled in

Allow the recording of lectures and the use of speech-to-text software

Eliminate unnecessary clerical tasks (transcribing math assignments from textbook to worksheet)

 

All sound useful to request.  Some seem likely a this or that...  either or....

not sure about extra time for assignments (other than tests).... . I don’t think that would be standard because pretty soon there ‘d be a mismatch between duration of course and time child were taking which might not be possible for teachers.

 

 

 I would add a general question about their suggestions for dealing with him apparently running out of classes at his level...do they know where you could find suitable outsourced classes? 

 

47 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Does the student do poorly on the test because of the fine motor issues? OR are the fine motor issues actually just a symptom of the brain difference that makes that coding test difficult? Meaning that the fine motor issues are caused by the low processing.

 

 

Im not understanding that.  

 

47 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

The fact that his WJ scores did not increase appreciably since the last administration, even though he is now on medication is evidence that he needs the accommodations. For example, if the WJ had been broken up to allow for breaks/extra time, he likely would have scored higher. On the math section, some things stood out to me immediately. The comment that he missed the cube root of 1000 and slope of a line questions -- both of which he knows. He likely just spaced out at the end of the test because of the cumulative effects of ADHD and slow processing.

 

Maybe.  I think asking for accommodations simply on basis of adhd is reasonable.

Arguing that he would have scored higher if given accommodations may not be so.  

Are you trying to get the test redone with accommodations to see if he does actually score higher?  

 

I’d tend to assume that his score is more or less correctly in range found, likelywith the higher earlier test more accurate for his math.  

I’m not sure his scores are evidence of needing any accommodations.  (He’s better at some things than others, but doesn’t seem to have disabling levels of anything showing on the WJ, WISCONSIN).   His processing seems normal for age.  

 

You might clarify if a single error of square root of 1000 ended test or if it was one of a few allowed errors.  My recollection of these types of tests is that one single error doesn’t end them.  But rathe

But documented adhd to me seems like it should qualify him under 504.  

 As well the slow / delayed growth development may affect his writing and other muscle related performance.