IEP Meeting Next Week: Need Help Interpreting Testing in 2E Kid

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

And certainly not DE type stress put on an emotionally typical (even if intellectually profoundly gifted)  10, 12, 14 yo.   

That would be an interesting thing to talk through with a professional. Pen is really onto something there. 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

It goes through age 14,

That was my point, that the rat race goes into full gear in high school. 

[Pen]

https://www.hoagiesgifted.org/unofficial_guide.htm

[Pen]

https://www.nagc.org/resources-publications/resources-parents/social-emotional-issues

[Pen]

On 4/2/2019 at 7:23 PM, SeaConquest said:

Re underperforming, I don't know if it is just a mismatch between expectations and ability, or if he just sucks on tests or what. Examples: Math Kangaroo -- every.damn.year.year, I'm like WTF kid. He loves it, but he never does well. The SCAT for CTY -- he made seriously stupid mistakes. His AoPS tests -- he is just a ball of anxiety because of time pressure. And even his Woodcock Johnson scores seem crappy to me.

 

I realize that you’re venting.  But read your own words.  That’s a lot of negativity.  A lot of judgmental attitudes.  

Possibly a lot of expectations of your own placed on him to perform so you can look good, or feel good, instead of letting him just enjoy something like Math Kangaroo.  

 

Quote

The lady who tested him commented that he topped out in the math section at the point where he didn't know the cube root of 1000. I'm like, whaaaaat? He knows the cube root of 1000. I asked him in the car and he's like, of course I know that, 10. I'm like, so why did you miss it? He argued with me about whether he actually missed it. He didn't believe me. Same with slope of a line, which he also knows. He also misses a stupid word that he knows how to spell during the spelling bee. I don't know if he just spaces out or what. But yeah, underperformance. You can almost set your watch to it. But then, that sounds ludicrous because he is ahead, so I can't be upset about it. And yet, it bugs me because I'm a Hermione Granger ubercompetitive type myself (while my kid is not

 

It sounds like you are distressed by him making a mistake.  

 

Quote

; he just likes to participate, which does not compute for me).

 

But that is your issue.  

Your own competitive drive.

There’s nothing wrong with participating out of enjoyment without a driven competitive attitude.

 

Quote

 

He types well, so that is what we've been doing. I am not sure if he has dysgraphia because he seems to be doing well enough on the WJ writing fluency and those other tests. But yeah, I agree with you. I want her to phrase the report differently to support accommodations. I just don't know how to tell a school psych what to write. I wish I had some examples.

 

 

I don’t know what California is willing to do.  I know sometimes discrepancies from lowest to highest scores can get IEP accommodations.  

In Oregon, where I am now, tbh, I don’t think he’d get an IEP based on his scores.  Maybe a 504.  

There’s a degree to which this sounds like a mom who wants her 10year old to be given accommodations so he can take college classes as a middle schooler.  That he really just isn’t ready for. 

and sort of a feeling that mama needs to chill...  to accept that he’s a smart 10yo... not a college kid...   he doesn’t need to be Doogie Hauser to have a good life.

 

ETA — not meaning to be critical of you—just that I think you may be having too high expectations of your son, which may be adding to his anxiety, his clutching on exams... and I’m not sure what you will find possible for an IEP to give accommodations.

 

or, thinking about it differently this morning, that maybe you could get them to write it up so as to support accommodations, using your own competitive drive to push them to do what you want so as to make it possible for him to take college classes with double time for exams, or whatever it is you want 

 

but that doing so might turn out to  be negative for your son in the long run 

https://www.nagc.org/resources-publications/resources-parents/social-emotional-issues

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pen

[Arcadia]

8 hours ago, Pen said:

But that is your issue.  

Your own competitive drive.

There’s nothing wrong with participating out of enjoyment without a driven competitive attitude.

I don’t know what California is willing to do.  I know sometimes discrepancies from lowest to highest scores can get IEP accommodations.  

In Oregon, where I am now, tbh, I don’t think he’d get an IEP based on his scores.  Maybe a 504.  

There’s a degree to which this sounds like a mom who wants her 10year old to be given accommodations so he can take college classes as a middle schooler.  That he really just isn’t ready for. 

and sort of a feeling that mama needs to chill...  to accept that he’s a smart 10yo... not a college kid...   he doesn’t need to be Doogie Hauser to have a good life.

 

To be fair, a lot of it is a parent child personality mismatch and OP has anxiety issues on top of the mismatch issues which can lead to a vicious circle of feeding the anxiety 😞

My kids (introverts) do contests for the social gathering but I am a slacker kind of Type A (comical I know). So my husband and I don’t care if they rank last.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Arcadia

[Pen]

1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

 

To be fair, a lot of it is a parent child personality mismatch and OP has anxiety issues on top of the mismatch issues which can lead to a vicious circle of feeding the anxiety 😞

My kids (introverts) do contests for the social gathering but I am a slacker kind of Type A (comical I know). 

 

One thing then, preparing for IEP meeting, would be to be plan to listen to what the others being met with think.  If the child gets to be there,  to listen to him too.   

An IEP plan is intended to meet the individual needs of a child.  So to try to think well about his own developmental needs.   The child’s needs as primary.  To see it as a chance to get input from someone who has tested a lot of kids, and has met him in person. 

 

 

[Storygirl]

OP, I missed it the first time you said it, but in one of the things that Pen quoted, you say, "I just don't know how to tell a school psych what to write. I wish I had some examples."

You can google IEP examples to give you ideas.

The psych may not be willing to change the wording about whether he should be accommodated based on test scores or on parent concerns (that was the context of your quoted statement). But you could tell her that you find the wording confusing and are wondering what she means. And then after she explains what she means, you can ask if she can make it clearer in the report. You can do this now, before the meeting, or you can do it at the IEP meeting.

I have pointed out mistakes or lack of clarity in reports before, and people have revised.

I have also expressed a different opinion than what the psych or school writes in the report and, though they have listened, they have not been willing to revise.

They do, however, have to include the parent's perspective in the IEP. I usually write up some things that I have observed, and they include them as parent observations. Or I will ask them during the meeting if they can include something that I just said, and they will type it in (someone in the room is typing the IEP report as we sit there discussing it, during our meetings).

The parent is legally an equal member of the IEP team and has a say. But everyone else has a say, as well. And if what the parent says is the minority opinion, they will go with the majority opinion as they write the IEP. The idea is for everyone to listen and hopefully come to a consensus on everything. But a consensus does not always happen.

I have been content with the outcome of our IEP meetings and the IEPs that we have produced. I have not always agreed totally with everything in the meeting or in the IEP. I did not agree, for example, at DS's last meeting, that he had met some his goals, but the school remained adamant that he had, according to their measurements, though we discussed it for a very long time. The school's point of view and mine did not match.  And finally I had to accept it and move on, because no one else on the team (other than DH) agreed with me. They were nice, and the discussion was civil, fortunately, but I did not get my way on that.

Your IEP team has not actually decided whether or not an IEP is warranted yet. You probably know this, but an IEP is only written when special education and intervention of some kind is needed. If only accommodations are needed, the school will do a 504 plan instead. Because of your son's high test scores and the fact that you had to push them to even evaluate him, it's likely that they will think a 504 is enough. I just don't want you to be taken by surprise by that.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

To be fair, a lot of it is a parent child personality mismatch and OP has anxiety issues on top of the mismatch issues which can lead to a vicious circle of feeding the anxiety 😞

 

Isn't that the point? We tend to be pretty straight shooters around here, and it doesn't do anyone any good to pussyfoot around and not acknowledge what's going on. It's the op's chance to deal with her own inner demons (or sprites or fairies or say something nicer) and ask for help with from a psychologist with that 2nd opinion, from a counselor for herself. We ALL have them, or at least I do, these areas that trip us up. I probably have 30, lol. Like I'm a really especially terribly imperfect person on this, so I'm always having to admit in front of professionals and to myself how *I* am a factor, either as a solution or as an aggravation. It's always me, because I'm the magic in the homeschooling. And wow I wish I were as magical as some moms in some areas. I think that can get a little unhealthy too, like comparing me as an individual to a composite uber-mom, that won't work. But still, it's really healthy for me to stop and ask where *I* have a part to play in whatever is most impacting ds. Like if our professionals are saying ds needs chores (discussion of the day, haha) and he's not doing chores (independent tasks vs. work in general, we do a ton of work in general), is that HIM or ME? 

On April 2, 2019 at 10:23 PM, SeaConquest said:

He loves it, but he never does well. The SCAT for CTY -- he made seriously stupid mistakes.

I sort of missed the overall negative tone and in how many situations it's occurring for you till Pen made her post. I feel for you. I think Arcadia is right that you've got a mismatch and assumptions and it's making you stressed. Maybe you've already come to the other side of this and are seeing it now? It's always brave of us to admit things in public.  It's really how you get help though, and the important thing is you want that and want it to go better. The past is the past and you'll work it out. 

At one point you kind of replied with some comments about how you're not stealing his childhood, and I SO agree. He seems to have a lovely life!!! And it sounds like your main problem is how do you help a kid who's highly gifted, who WANTS to participate in things that engage that gifted side, participate successfully when he's GOING TO have those kind of ADHD errors, going to fade out, going to be inefficient, going to have executive function deficits and immaturity... It's a really good question! And when you're asking that, you're finally asking the right question. It's not about blaming you or him. It's the disability that is the issue and how do we wrangle with the disability and what are healthy ways this can plan out?

I would make make multiple paths. I would make a WHOLE bunch of paths, like seriously. Like 5 or 6 or 8 or 10. And I would sit down with paper and go through pros and cons with him and let him pick a path he wants to try. And then if that path isn't good enough, you guys reassess and try a different path.

Like I could see the AOPS with accommodations as a path. I'm not sure it's a great path, because it seems really rat race to me. It seems to be ideal for kids who's processing speed can keep up. Those people are not educators running it, people who've taken psychology, people who worked in classrooms with hundreds of kids to deal with a variety of kids. You're dealing with geeks (yes? that was my impression, could be wrong) who know their stuff. So once you introduce a dc with disabilities, you're like hey expert math whiz could you also bother to become an expert in psychology and child development for a minute so you could work better with my ds? That's not what they were advertising to be, kwim? But it's a path, sure, try it.

I mentioned tutors. You could get a subject expert and work by skype whatever. I would lean HEAVILY toward this path. Some people, just by virtue of personality, are already like 80% of the way toward being able to work with a kid with disability. If the person has the right demeanor and skill set (patience, how they talk with kids, knowing how to motivate or correct without correcting, etc.), they could fit right off the bat. And you only need ONE person for that to be a success. With the IEP and going through a business or school, you're constantly advocating and changing. I would look for a person he won't max out soon for that option. Maybe the school should be paying for that as an intervention service, haha. They won't. My ds has academic goals in his IEP and they get serviced by an intervention specialist per the IEP. Can you imagine the IS appropriate to your ds? LOL I'm just laughing here. He won't have academic goals and won't need/want an IS. You're looking for a grad student in math, someone like that.

Hmm, other options? Um, online classes that are self-paced. Is Derek Owens self-paced? That would deal with the speed issues but could aggravate EF issues.

Having some kind of check-in person or support person. I don't know what that would look like for math. It's the NORM in humanities. Think about it. At the university he'll have access to academic services that would look over a paper he wrote for any class and give him feedback to get on track with the obvious structural basics, etc. There are online services that do this. Where dd goes, they use an online submission service she can use 24/7 rather than a student-run services lab. I think that's great and she likes it. Do they have that for math? Why not? I'll bet they do. 

You could stop doing testing. I'm just listing out 20 options. I'm not saying I have an opinion on that, just that it could be on the table. You know, like in 12 Angry Men where they run the cat up the flag pole and see what happens. When I'm doing this (you can tell I have to do it a lot because I'm in pickles a lot, lol), I go way out of the box if I can. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you actually put it out there, in print, like it was a real, legit option. It would be interesting to see what he would think and how he'd respond. It might be something that hadn't been on the table or that needed to be on the table before. Maybe the tests and contests were cool before and they're not now.

Situations and opportunities have to work for the WHOLE PERSON. I have this story I tell. I had heard of pro-life rallies, blah blah, in high school, and I told my mom I wanted to go to some. She's like NO WAY, COLLEGES WILL HEAR AND NOT WANT YOU!!! I'm like, are you for real?? Well if they don't want me for being pro-life, then I don't want them. And there's that sense about these contests and things too. If they're not set up to function well for a kid with ADHD who's GOING TO DO WHAT ADHD KIDS DO, then spit on 'em and move on. There's so much more to do on the planet. You could go to a Hoagies' Gifted psych for that 2nd opinion, get connected with a mentor (you only have like a zillion top of the line universities out there in CA, mercy) and move on. Just spit on 'em and move on. If they don't want you because you make mistakes, you don't want them. Why do you want to hang in an environment where any mistakes are death knell, where you're only wanted if you don't make mistakes, where you only make the cut and can continue to stay if you don't make mistakes? Makes no sense to me.

Go where you're wanted, where you fit in, where the pace of life you need and the way you want to live fits.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

Tagging onto PeterPan with a non-academic example.

DS14 was a competitive gymnast for a number of years. Age 6 to 11, I think. Gymnastics was so fabulous for him in many ways. He was not gifted at it, but he was good enough to be on a team and keep progressing. And it really served as a kind of therapy for him as well, given his motor and visual spatial difficulties.

It was good! And then a component of it became negative for him. And we met with the coaches about it and emailed them several times and tried to work through it for perhaps six months, until the end of the season, when it became time to sign him up for the next year.

I so much wanted him to continue in gymnastics for all of the benefits. But we decided it was more important for his development as a whole person for him to quit. It was extremely hard, and I doubted whether we were making the right decision.

But it was fine. Now he has found two areas where he is even more talented -- running, and playing drums and bass -- and where the other issues are not factors. Interestingly, those two things provide some of the same therapy-like benefits that we were worried about giving up when he quit gymnastics.

Sometimes looking for a different path can lead to greater success.

I don't know whether your son needs a different path or not, but it seems like the current one is causing him some stress. It's also causing you stress. You are looking for ways to make the current path work better, and I hope you find them. If you end up following a different path at some point, though, it's okay. And maybe not just okay. Maybe there are paths that will better help him become his best self. Becoming his best self is the main goal I try to keep in mind when I'm looking to help my son. Sometimes I forget that and get caught up in other things, but it's really the ultimate goal for me. And I hope it can become his own goal as he grows older.

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

Oh, and by "best self" I mean becoming the best person of character and the best achievement of his own potential. My son is completely unlike me, so I have to let things unfold in a different way than I would if I could completely orchestrate things to my liking. His best self may look different than I expect, and sometimes I may find it frustrating that it doesn't meet my own standards.

A little secret -- I tend to want to control things and even people, so that they turn out the way that I want. I have to work on that constantly within myself. The "best self" thing is something I came up with to remind myself that it is not about me but about him.

Just to give some context about my own struggles with this kind of thing. It comes up constantly in parenting not just DS but all of my kids, and keeping this kind of perspective is hard for me.

DD17 trained her whole life toward one goal and gave it up this past year. So I've wrestled with this in an intense way for a long time, and I'm sure in some ways I made it harder for DD to find a way to define herself outside of the goal.  It's not easy.

I'm not lecturing. Just sharing my experiences and how hard they have been for me.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Storygirl

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, Pen said:

There’s a degree to which this sounds like a mom who wants her 10year old to be given accommodations so he can take college classes as a middle schooler.  That he really just isn’t ready for. 

 

One thing that pop up to me about college classes, the local colleges want the child to self advocate and doesn’t want parents to do the advocating. My local community college said I could be present as an observer sitting/standing away back from my kid, but he has to do all the talking (YMMV of course). So besides handling the academic workload, a 2E child has to be able to advocate and liaise with the college’s disability office.

My friend is “training” her 11th grade son with autism to do that as they (she and her husband) plan for him to go to community college after high school and then transfer to a college if he wants to after getting the associate degree.

[SeaConquest]

23 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Artificial distinction on the ADHD vs. ASD for social. Here's an article that would help her sort it out better. https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=Social Thinking Social Communication Profile If I were asking now, I'd ask for the new CAPs.

Not to be too boring or obvious, but wouldn't the improvement only apply to the pathways that developed automaticity? I mean, aren't you saying what we already know, that things become faster as they become more automatic? 

Is there a change in this around junior high or a drop-off? 

Someone was just joking with my that my ds is a hybrid. Your ds definitely are, hahahaha. It sounds like you identify with your older ds' learning style and know what to do with it. Sounds like your dh will be your resource on your younger. You're saying he's a challenge behaviorally. Are you having him screened? He's K5? My ds got his IEP then, fair and square. His discrepancies, even at that point, were so astonishing. Now pragmatics testing didn't show much at that age because a whopping score of *1* would pass him at that age. He didn't fail the SLDT till we redid it at 9, but he did fail the CASL pragmatics, which the school didn't care about. Their heads were so far in their butts it was ridiculous, but that's another story. I'm just saying I would be aggressive. You're not getting any time to breathe here between kids, but be aggressive on evals for that one.

 

I haven't had the little one evaluated, other than by my shrink when he was first having problems transitioning to big brother's charter school because I was thinking he might have ODD or something (shrink was like, he seems depressed, misses preschool). Little brother is an August bday. I himmed and hawed about whether to red shirt him and keep him an extra year at his uber expensive preschool. But, he wanted to be homeschooled with big brother and he seemed ready for Kinder, so we started on time. Big mistake. Older brother's charter is just more structured than preschool, so after 3 months of trying to fit a round hole and a square peg, I pulled Ronen (the little) out of Sacha's (the older's) charter, put him in a different charter that had a play-based model, reclassified him as a TK, and basically took a mulligan on this year. Best decision ever. He is much happier now and no evals seem necessary at the moment.

[SeaConquest]

On 4/4/2019 at 11:11 AM, Pen said:

What are you hoping to get from IEP meeting?

If there were a school for gifted children in your area that could be helpful.  Something like Mirman school in the Los Angeles area or Eldorado School in Orange, CA, if they still exist as schools for gifted children; or St Ann’s School in Brooklyn.   Those are all private, but it could be that there’s a public school with a magnet program making it essentially a gifted kids program.  My area doesn’t have any, but SD is big enough that it might.  

 In school for gifted children  situations the advanced part of 2E is met, Social is usually met, and often only the lagging areas need special supports.  

 

If your idea is for him for him to get extra time for things like AOPS tests, it would be very helpful to figure out if extractime will allow him to do significantly better.  If retention of material or anxiety are the main problems then extra time is unlikely to help.

maybe the IEP team could help you to figure out what is wrong so that he gets blue (Alcumus?) suggesting regular content is mastered, but then clutches on exams.

maybe you could have him try KhanAcademy prealgebra to see if he seems to have actual mastery of prealgebra versus apparent mastery of doing  Alcumus. 

 

 

I was hoping to get testing to see if I was missing something beyond the ADHD (like slow processing -- YES -- or working memory or fine motor issues) that would require services and/or accommodations. At this point, I think that extra time on tests, distraction-free environments, and typing would be good places to start for accommodations, but I am totally open to suggestions.

Edited April 6, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

20 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

Does he study for his midterm exams?

 

It may be unrealistic for him to expect himself to have the emotional maturity and executive functioning needed for college level classes, even at a CC much less UCSD, at age 12 ish.  Especially with ADHD which goes hand in hand with lagging EF development...no matter how smart he is.

Trying and failing to succeed may also create a negative spiral of worse anxiety.  

 

At least 2 of the school’s for gifted children I mentioned were ungraded, so children could explore learning and interests without even regular elementary, middle and high school type stress.  And certainly not DE type stress put on an emotionally typical (even if intellectually profoundly gifted)  10, 12, 14 yo.   

 

He does not study for midterms yet. I haven't wanted to put pressure on him

CC would be 12/13, UCSD would be more like 14/15, but yes, it may be unrealistic. These are all just ideas at the moment. He definitely doesn't want to go to a regular school; he likes homeschooling, and I don't think we have any 2e schools here in SD.

[SeaConquest]

On 4/4/2019 at 1:53 PM, Pen said:

Btw— does he have acquaintances  doing DE science classes who are just a couple of years older than he is?  Other kids in his class at the AOPS Academy perhaps?

 

There are kids in the broader homeschooling community in SD who DE, but I don't know any who do so at such a young age at the moment (though it has certainly happened before). The AoPS Academy kids are not homeschoolers, by and large. They are wealthy public and private afterschoolers (the classes are held on weekends and after school) -- mostly Asian/Indian with Tiger parents driving Teslas and sporting MIT sweatshirts. They are a pretty insular group, get picked up/dropped off right away, and don't socialize outside of class. Sacha hasn't made any friends through his classes there. 😞 

Edited April 8, 2019 by SeaConquest

[SeaConquest]

19 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

This. Very significant.

@SeaConquest have you asked your Ds if he would want time and a half or double on his exams if IEP people would give that? Or split into two sessions?  

Is there some way that could be tried to see if it actually helps?  It might just double the time to be anxious.  

 

 

 

I figured that we would try it out next year with the CHSPE or in his AoPS classes (if they are amenable), before it really matters for things like SAT/ACT/DE, and see if it helps.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I was hoping to get testing to see if I was missing something beyong the ADHD (like slow processing -- YES -- or working memory or fine motor issues) that would require services and accommodations. At this point, I think that extra time on tests, distraction-free environments, and typing would be good places to start for accommodations, but I am totally open to suggestions.

 

Do you mean  you want  additional testing, or the testing he already has had?

all of those, extra time, less distractions, typing, are pretty easy to get these days IME 

they may or may not help significantly...  

some parts at least for AoPS (I don’t understand the other acronym) may be achievable without special accommodations, just with a simple request, or wearing earplugs...

it might be useful to ask the people who administered the testing he had whether he did significantly better on parts that were untimed .  

It sounds like that might not be the case, but I don’t know enough about WISC and wJ to know which parts are timed

His processing isn’t really significantly slow.  It’s tested as results very slightly slower than average.  Doing academic things a bit slowly may even be a bit typical of homeschoolers because they often don’t have daily practice at doing academic  things quickly.   It could also relate to stress, anxiety, and adhd.  

 

 

59 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

He does not study for midterms yet. I haven't wanted to put pressure on him

 

But not reviewing, not studying, could relate to not doing well on midterms.  Test taking is itself a whole area to develop skills in.  And that won’t necessarily come naturally to him.

(eta: and though you say you don’t want to put pressure on him, your description sounds like he is pressured, is anxious, and that you are reacting negatively in the way you see his not doing well on tests...   I’m not even sure what not doing well means to you—has he failed his prealg (or other AoPS) midterms? )  

maybe  he could retake prealgebra with an emphasis on learning to review for exams and to practice self calming strategies.  

In a sense you have evidence that he is lacking in test taking skills—and /or evidence that he just wants to have fun and enjoy enrichment activities.  

 

 

Tbc

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

56 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I figured that we would try it out next year with the CHSPE or in his AoPS classes (if they are amenable), before it really matters for things like SAT/ACT/DE, and see if it helps.

 

Well, trying it out to see if it helps makes sense to me.  

But there seems to me to be too much stress and anxiety about SAT for a 10yo.  

I know California is much more high stress about this sort of thing than rural Oregon where I am now, but a lot of my family is in California and you seem to be having an outsize level of stress and anxiety about his DE rather early even for California.  

[SeaConquest]

Re our mismatched personalities, I am aware of it and appreciate the straight-shooting critiques. I didn't come here for an echo chamber. I really do appreciate all of the advice and am trying to be as candid as possible in my posts, not sugar coating my thoughts, etc. Of course, I try not to speak to him or pressure him with the anxious voices that you all are rightfully picking up on, but they are likely subtly there percolating, no doubt. The legal rat race imprinted on me in a very abusive way and I am trying to break that cycle with him. But, like kids who were hit, sometimes they hit too as parents, even if they don't intend to, because they just don't know any other way, or have any other parenting skills as an alternative, you know? But, I am aware of it and desperately trying to break the extrinsic motivation achievement cycle with my children. I want them to be happy more than anything else in this world.

Re testing, I don't think the school needs to do any more, and I don't think that he needs any services. So, I expect that they will agree to a 504 plan with some accommodations that we can try. It's not so much that I want a middle schooler to take college classes, but that he wants to learn more science.

Re math, I had not considered a tutor to work with him using AoPS as a curriculum, but that is not a bad idea. I know of a local math tutor/homeschooling mom (lovely woman) who has a 2e kid that uses AoPS, so that might be a very good fit vs keeping with the math competition crowd (who, I agree, are not the best fit for him). That's a very good suggestion. Thank you.

I think you've also convinced me that I need to bake in more review for his ADHD brain. 🙂

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

He definitely doesn't want to go to a regular school; he likes homeschooling, and I don't think we have any 2e schools here in SD.

 

Leaving aside your own fears for future DE and SAT and his exams in outside highly advanced enrichment classes, is there anything about homeschooling that is a problem right now?

 If he loves  it, it seems like the perfect way to be able to meet his needs for exploration of academic subjects in a way tailor made to fit him.  ???

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

There are kids in the broader homeschooling community in SD who DE, but I don't know any who do so at such a young age at the moment (though it has certainly happened before).

 

IME, that is extremely young.  And I am speaking as someone who was PG and knew others who were.  

I would tend to look at your son as a whole person.  He has areas where he is highly gifted.  He has areas where he is around average for his age.  He has areas like adhd where he has LD.  It is all part of him.  Early college tends to call for extraordinary high EF.  A person with adhd probably won’t have that, and especially not early .  And it probably can’t be fixed up with extra time on exams etc. type accommodations.  But it may be able to be fixed to som degree by gradually working on it at the same time as his brain has maturation time.  But if anything, I’d expect him to be a bit behind his peers in readiness for college because of adhd and EF rather than ahead because of his highest area of academic ability.  

 

 

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

The AoPS Academy kids are not homeschoolers, by and large. They are wealthy public and private afterschoolers (the classes are held on weekends and after school) -- mostly Asian/Indian with Tiger parents driving Teslas and sporting MIT sweatshirts. They are a petty insular group, get picked up/dropped off right away, and don't socialize outside of class. Sacha hasn't made any friends through his classes there. 😞 

 

That’s sad about it not being an area that has led to friends.

Does he enjoy the AOPS classes nonetheless?

[SeaConquest]

12 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Well, trying it out to see if it helps makes sense to me.  

But there seems to me to be too much stress and anxiety about SAT for a 10yo.  

I know California is much more high stress about this sort of thing than rural Oregon where I am now, but a lot of my family is in California and you seem to be having an outsize level of stress and anxiety about his DE rather early even for California.  

 

I think it is just because I know that he will be taking those sorts of tests earlier than normal. It's what accelerated kids do to qualify for camps or CC classes. It's part of the ethos of things like Duke TIP or Johns Hopkins CTY or Davidson, etc. It's also the way they are able to prove to the outside world that they are ready for X, Y, or Z vs taking mommy's word for it. So, you take a SAT2 earlier because you took that class earlier, obviously not at 10, but maybe at 12 or 13. So, yes, I am thinking about these sorts of accommodations issues, and whether they would be necessary/helpful for him, now.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

One thing that pop up to me about college classes, the local colleges want the child to self advocate

This is HUGE. Huge, huge, huge.

[Pen]

He can learn science without enrolling in CC.

 

 I t might even be a good idea to go to your local CC and sit in on a few classes to see if it’s actually something he’d enjoy and get a lot out of.  If so he might be able to sit in as an audit student with no performance pressure.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Best decision ever. He is much happier now and no evals seem necessary at the moment.

Sounds like it! Your shrink is a jerk btw. Or a donkey's butt. Or great for adults and worthless for kids. Don't bother to take your older to him if that's the quality of his evaluation, mercy. 

I agree with you that the kid digging in his heels like a donkey (ODD-type behaviors you were describing) could come from things being too hard. It would also be nice to know why he couldn't self-advocate in a more typical way. My ds would do that, but my ds has language issues, kwim? So to me, you made the right call, absolutely, but I'd be keeping an eye on it. It sounds like both your boys are going to be fun and both end up using that Hoagies' Gifted psych when you get private 2nd opinions/evals.

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

 

Leaving aside your own fears for future DE and SAT and his exams in outside highly advanced enrichment classes, is there anything about homeschooling that is a problem right now?

 If he loves  it, it seems like the perfect way to be able to meet his needs for exploration of academic subjects in a way tailor made to fit him.  ???

 

IME, that is extremely young.  And I am speaking as someone who was PG and knew others who were.  

I would tend to look at your son as a whole person.  He has areas where he is highly gifted.  He has areas where he is around average for his age.  He has areas like adhd where he has LD.  It is all part of him.  Early college tends to call for extraordinary high EF.  A person with adhd probably won’t have that, and especially not early .  And it probably can’t be fixed up with extra time on exams etc. type accommodations.  But it may be able to be fixed to som degree by gradually working on it at the same time as his brain has maturation time.  But if anything, I’d expect him to be a bit behind his peers in readiness for college because of adhd and EF rather than ahead because of his highest area of academic ability.  

 

 

 

That’s sad about it not being an area that has led to friends.

Does he enjoy the AOPS classes nonetheless?

 

I don't think there is much that is a problem in our homeschooling except for the fact that he will miss his friend when she moves away in a few weeks. Everything is going well and he loves being homeschooled. He likes all of his classes (except he is finding his AoPS Python class challenging, but is plugging along nonetheless). Despite not making any friends through the class, he enjoys his AoPS Academy classes. I think he feels really good about knowing that he is doing "hard" math. It gives him confidence to do hard things. I will certainly keep in mind all you have said re the EF issues making DE more challenging and possibly delaying it. He enjoys his online classes, so this just seemed like the natural progression to me.

[SeaConquest]

On 4/5/2019 at 11:10 AM, Pen said:

He can learn science without enrolling in CC.

 

 I t might even be a good idea to go to your local CC and sit in on a few classes to see if it’s actually something he’d enjoy and get a lot out of.  If so he might be able to sit in as an audit student with no performance pressure.  

 

I just started back to school to become a nurse practitioner and had to take science pre-reqs at the CC, so I have a very good idea of what he would have to do. I think he could do it in a few years. Not sure about sitting in an enormous lecture hall like UCSD. That seems much more intimidating. I would personally hate that, which is why I went to a small liberal arts college.

Edited April 8, 2019 by SeaConquest

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

CC would be 12/13, UCSD would be more like 14/15, but yes, it may be unrealistic.

Ok, I went to university classes with my mother when I was that age (6th-8th grade, I forget) because I was in a tiny cs and bored stiff. It's totally possible for a bright kid to go in and learn, sure. I still remember the classes, and I was sitting there reading War & Peace at the same time. Raised just a few eyebrows, lol.  Anyways, that DOESN'T mean the kid is ready to function for the whole package. You do more in college than learn. You also slog, do pointless things, get mugged, wrangle with due dates and unfair volcanoes of assignments, and self-advocate when you have problems. He has to be ready to do ALL of that by himself. Completely, totally, utterly by himself. 

I think if he has unusually focused interests and an NVLD profile you're also going to be asking whether there are things that need to balance out. Sometimes, I hate to mention this, but you find those areas that are weak (social thinking, whatever) and it drains brain energy and other things slow down. Might not happen, but it could. Something else could come up that is valuable also.

Total aside, but it's an SLP, not a psych, that would typically do pragmatics like the SLDT or the new CAPs. You might be able to get your insurance to cover SLP hours, and it might take some fishing to find someone with the new CAPs. I'd try a university, somebody with access to an absurd amount of tests, so they have the variety to draw from. But who knows, maybe a Hoagie's Gifted psych would surprise you and have it. It could happen. But even around here that's alike a 1 in 3 that will have more interesting testing.

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I want them to be happy more than anything else in this world.

That's hard if the culture where you are really is so rat race, with Tiger Mom's. It would be easy for it to skew your whole sense of normal. You probably need to go sit on your boat and look out at the sea every night and ask DOES IT MATTER before you decide anything, lol. Like for me Alaska was such an epiphany. I was so caught up with the boards here and what my dd could do and what they were doing and what I was supposed to do to do it "right". And after driving around in the tundra and brush and scrub and whatever ugliness we were in for 2 weeks (parts were nice, but it was fall and kind of scruffy), all of a sudden I was like DOES IT MATTER??? Came back, dropped stuff, and just really got my confidence and mojo. 

Now when I really get disconnected from actual reality (not board reality or in your case CA reality), I just remember back to being in that RV and driving around, looking at salmon, seeing moose, thinking about what it really takes to live and be happy, and go OK DOES IT MATTER? Or a I take a cruise or think Disney. I'm listening to Disney music now. I just have to separate from the rat race so much and be right where my kid is, no where else.

That culture at the AOPS classes is such a hoot. What would it take for him to make friends? They're too busy? I can totally imagine that. Haven't seen it, but I scanned part of that Tiger Mom book once and can imagine. Where can you go where he can have friends, people who have time for him, people who want friends too? That's the trick to making friends, well one of them. It works better if the other person needs a friend, lol.

[Pen]

13 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I think it is just because I know that he will be taking those sorts of tests earlier than normal. It's what accelerated kids do to qualify for camps or CC classes. It's part of the ethos of things like Duke TIP or Johns Hopkins CTY or Davidson, etc. It's also the way they are able to prove to the outside world that they are ready for X, Y, or Z vs taking mommy's word for it. So, you take a SAT2 earlier because you took that class earlier, obviously not at 10, but maybe at 12 or 13. So, yes, I am thinking about these sorts of accommodations issues, and whether they would be necessary/helpful for him, now.

 

I can see something like Johns Hopkins program possibly appealing to him .  What would it actually take to apply for this summer or next?  

Could you talk to someone in such a program about your son’s situation? 

Applying to something intended for children his age and that he might be able to do in nearish future makes more sense to me at this stage than a focus on DE .  

 

[PeterPan]

27 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am trying to break that cycle

I was assuming the anxiety was chemical, not volitional or you being bad or something. I don't know, I'm just kind of not a blame person on that. Anxiety happens. All that matters is what we do with it.

[Pen]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I was assuming the anxiety was chemical, not volitional or you being bad or something. I don't know, I'm just kind of not a blame person on that. Anxiety happens. All that matters is what we do with it.

 

It can also be situational.  Like mice in a maze with experimental shocks...   they might be fine if they weren’t stuck in the situation

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's hard if the culture where you are really is so rat race, with Tiger Mom's. It would be easy for it to skew your whole sense of normal. You probably need to go sit on your boat and look out at the sea every night and ask DOES IT MATTER before you decide anything

 

Nodding my head in agreement!

 

from my experience, the culture there *is* extremely rat race

laid back there would come across as hyper intense where I am now 

 

[PeterPan]

28 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Re math, I had not considered a tutor to work with using AoPS as a curriculum, but that is not a bad idea. I know of a local math tutor/homeschooling mom (lovely woman) who has a 2e kid that uses AoPS, so that might be a very good fit vs keeping with the math competition crowd (who, I agree, are not the best fit for him). That's a very good suggestion. Thank you.

Ooo, now see I love that idea, because then she might be able to put together study groups of 3-4 kids and your ds could have some friends!!! But yeah, start brainstorming like that and get LOTS OF IDEAS. 

31 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I think you've also convinced me that I need to bake in more review for his ADHD brain. 🙂

Hmm, that's an interesting idea. It's another thing to put on that list for the psych when you get a 2nd opinion. With my dd some of that was, well spiral was tedious and CONTEXT was better. Like can he work with someone in a science context where he's going to USE some of this math? That might make things stick way better than a bunch of spiral workbooks. And so what if you could spiral his brain till he's comatose with facts to regurgitate them for some test. Did it MATTER??? Did it try to make him present as someone he ISN'T? What about if he DOESN'T retain those bits and is just wicked strong in some conceptual areas, lousy at the bits, and that's just how he is? What does that mean? Where does he fit in the world?

You don't have to fix it. Honest. With my dd I tried to look at functionality. How much of that junk does he really have to have to be functional and how much is optional or no longer necessary? For my dd, say spelling, I was like she needs to know whether she needs help or has the right spelling, and she needs to be close enough she can get it with spell check. Beyond that, doesn't matter. So on this math stuff, what matters and is really worth slowing down his life for and sucking hours in his day and what is just trying to conform to some idiot test for some idiot class for some idiot program?

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

It can also be situational.  Like mice in a maze with experimental shocks...   they might be fine if they weren’t stuck in the situation

Oh dear, yes. I meant hers. For the ds, I have no clue. Like you're saying, he sounds pretty chill except when being electrocuted during these maze tests.

[SeaConquest]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I can see something like Johns Hopkins program possibly appealing to him .  What would it actually take to apply for this summer or next?  

Could you talk to someone in such a program about your son’s situation? 

Applying to something intended for children his age and that he might be able to do in nearish future makes more sense to me at this stage than a focus on DE .  

 

 

He has gone to CTY camp since the summer of 2nd grade. This will be his 3rd summer. He is doing physics this summer. But, next summer there will only be forensics left at our location. He would have to go to sleepaway camp for anything else science-related, which is 3 weeks residential camp in Los Angeles. So, he said that he prefers to go to 1-week sleep-away Space Camp in Hunstville, AL (hopefully, his friend that is moving away will join him for the same week). The following year, he wants to go to 1-week sleep-away Astronomy Camp in Arizona. We will see after that. But, I posed a couple of longer residential camps to him through Duke, Northwestern, and JHU for next summer initially and he did not want to be away from home for 2 or 3 weeks, which I thought was telling. He has no problem going to day camps all day/all summer, but a couple of weeks away from his brother and family was too much for him. He said he would miss us.

[SeaConquest]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Oh dear, yes. I meant hers. For the ds, I have no clue. Like you're saying, he sounds pretty chill except when being electrocuted during these maze tests.

 

Yes, that is him. Very chill except during maze tests. I am a chemical mess who thankfully takes supplemental chemicals to help manage the genetic lottery. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by SeaConquest

[PeterPan]

11 minutes ago, Pen said:

Applying to something intended for children his age

Ok, I have no clue what SC has accessible to her, but Pen's really onto something here with the AGE AND INTELLECTUAL peers thing. I went to a school for the gifted my last couple years, and these are people who are still friends years later. They inter-married. For some it was the best time ever, in their whole lives, because all the parameters were so balanced. Well that's not true, there were some 180s who were like so freakishly above that everyone stood in awe. But really everyone had fun (unless they didn't belong there and went home, goodbye, bad ride). 

It would be something to prioritize or maybe sail your boat for. Like I think NC has a school like that. Some charge. But you know like tell the dh to telecommute and make a change. Easy for me to say, but I'm just saying Pen's advice here is really on. But I wouldn't go into that early, no matter what you think, like being younger than the others. Doesn't end well. Well it can be ok, but *I* don't recommend it. 

You can probably find a list of those by googling. They're residential and you might have to establish residency. Indiana, North Carolina, I don't know.

[PeterPan]

Yeah and I'm saying school year, so that wouldn't be now but in a few years. It would be something to look into and work toward. For the right kid it's crazy fun. 

[Pen]

What about something like Sea Scouts or oceanography for kids locally to you?  

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

Yes, that is him. Very chill except during maze tests. I am a chemical mess who thankfully takes supplemental chemicals to help manage the genetic lottery. 

 

Could he do AoPS without maze tests?

[SeaConquest]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

What about something like Sea Scouts or oceanography for kids locally to you?  

 

He wants to start Civil Air Patrol when he is 12 so that he can learn to fly. He also wants to start martial arts training this fall. Not sure if that will yield any friends, but that is in the works.

ETA: 12 is as young as they will take them here. You can solo a glider at 14 and get your private pilot's license at 16.

Edited April 5, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

He has gone to CTY camp since the summer of 2nd grade. This will be his 3rd summer. He is doing physics this summer. But, next summer there will only be forensics left at our location. He would have to go to sleepaway camp for anything else science-related, which is 3 weeks residential camp in Los Angeles. So, he said that he prefers to go to 1-week sleep-away Space Camp in Hunstville, AL (hopefully, his friend that is moving away will join him for the same week). The following year, he wants to go to 1-week sleep-away Astronomy Camp in Arizona.

 

 

 

Sounds reasonable.  Maybe around age 12 or 13 , 3 weeks in LA would be more emotionally comfortable.  

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Could he do AoPS without maze tests?

 

Maybe. I never asked. I figured that he needed to learn how to test, so better to learn when it didn't matter. He gets Outstandings on every subject on his charter school report card. They never see his test scores from AoPS. 

[Pen]

In his Aops is he the same age (on average, especially Mode type average to give several same age classmates ) as others in his same class(es)?

[PeterPan]

32 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I figured that he needed to learn how to test,

That doesn't mean he's ready to structure and make supports happen on his own. But you've moved beyond that. Sink or swim is ok if the kid is learning to swim. But if learning how to swim on his own, just by being thrown in, isn't cutting it, then lessons would be fine, lol. Most people do better with lessons. I mean, what a harsh thing if your only option was to get thrown in and drown or figure it out. LOL

[SeaConquest]

41 minutes ago, Pen said:

In his Aops is he the same age (on average, especially Mode type average to give several same age classmates ) as others in his same class(es)?

 

That I really don't know. I've never talked to any of the parents or asked the professor. Sacha has a two-year growth delay, so he always looks shorter than everyone else anyway. I would say that he is likely younger, but I really don't know.

Edited April 5, 2019 by SeaConquest

[Pen]

An advantage I think of things like the Johns Hopkins programs for kids is it probably does give more same ish age kids for potential friendships ...  you may even have near ish school year classes of that .

growth delay is one more thing to deal with as asynchronous development 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I think it is just because I know that he will be taking those sorts of tests earlier than normal. It's what accelerated kids do to qualify for camps or CC classes. It's part of the ethos of things like Duke TIP or Johns Hopkins CTY or Davidson, etc. It's also the way they are able to prove to the outside world that they are ready for X, Y, or Z vs taking mommy's word for it.

 

CTY JHU is now qualified one time so Sacha is set.

”Eligibility Expiration

Once eligibility is achieved, it does not expire. Students may retest to achieve a higher eligibility level, but retesting is not required to maintain a given level of eligibility” https://cty.jhu.edu/talent/eligibility/policy.html#levels

Duke TIP requalifies at 7th grade so Sacha still have plenty of time.

Caroline Bradley scholarship is also at 7th grade.

CTY JHU SET is qualify with a score of 700 (SAT English or Math section) by 13 years old and Sacha can still qualify with a higher cutoff after 13 years old. 

Davidson (DYS or DAO), you could get a private psychologist to run a different achievement or IQ test that would be eligible for use to apply. Lots of options for tests.

”As part of the application process for the Young Scholar program at least one of the following tests must be submitted:

• Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales – Fifth Edition (SB5)
• Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children – Fourth or Fifth Edition (WISC-IV or WISC-V)
• Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scale of Intelligence – Fourth Edition (WPPSI-IV)
• Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities – Third Normative Update of Fourth Edition (WJ-III NU or WJ-IV Cog)
• Differential Ability Scales – Second Edition (DAS-II)
• Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement – Second or Third Edition (KTEA – II or KTEA – 3)
• Wechsler Individual Achievement Test – Third Edition (WIAT – III)
• Woodcock-Johnson Tests of Achievement – Third Normative Update or Fourth Edition (WJ-III or WJ-IV Ach)
• SAT
• ACT
• PSAT 8/9” https://www.davidsongifted.org/Young-Scholars/Application-Process/Testing-Requirements

 

Stanford OHS, Sacha can take the Middle SSAT or ISEE, or PSAT 8/9 to qualify.

“If you have not taken a standardized test, please use the guidelines below to choose one:

Applicants for grades 7–8: 
Middle SSAT or ISEE, or PSAT 8/9

Applicants for grades 9–10: 
Upper SSAT or ISEE, or PSAT 8/9

Applicants for grades 11–12: 
PSAT, SAT, or ACT” https://ohs.stanford.edu/criteria-standardized-testing#nondiscrimination

 

Just a FYI, Foothill community college (ETA: which OP has mentioned in another thread) takes only AP scores for dual enrollment, no SAT scores, SAT subject tests scores or ACT scores. They also want their guidance counselor to interview the student to make sure it’s the student who wants to be there and not the parent’s wishes.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Arcadia

[SeaConquest]

Thanks, Arcadia. You're right that I do like the Humanities program at Foothill for Sacha because their program is online, looks like the type of coursework he enjoys, and seems much more doable for him than the AP rat race. I actually want to keep him away from APs because I don't want to put him in a situation where an entire course is riding on a single test administration. DE seems much more doable, especially online courses (which in my experience with CCs throughout CA have been more go at your own pace). He wouldn't be enrolling as an actual DE student if he passes the CHSPE. He'd enroll as a regular student, so I don't think he'd need any special approvals.