Mental Load

[linders]

Hear you here. And so many of the things - the varsity soccer schedule, for example, games that DH Really Wants To Attend - why me?

[Storygirl]

People have different levels of capacity for what is being termed "mental load." What is hard for one person is easy for another.

I really struggle with this personally, and when I talk to DH about it, it is not in a spirit of complaining (there seems to be a thought in this thread that the author is merely complaining and should just suck it up). When I talk about it, it is because I feel burdened, and I need for him to understand. It's not just annoyance for me; it is an extra burden of concern and care and thinking that weighs me down. Sometimes I say to him, "I need to know that I am not the only person thinking about these things."

It's not just a matter of picking up one tub. That is not the point at all. It is not about the physical acts of keeping the house clean.Those are just examples to illustrate her point. It is about the MENTAL burden of being responsible for it all and carrying the responsibility in the mind as a burden. It's about stress. And articles like this may seem to have a complaining tone, but it's not about complaining. It's about trying to explain what it feels like to others who don't understand, so that they can understand better.

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Bluegoat]

13 hours ago, OKBud said:

 

This, too, is another extreme of the spectrum.

Some people are still just figuring it out. Sharing a life. No, building a life....sharing a space. 

So they are having these conversations. They are putting words to what bothers them. Talking about "the mental load" of the household is one way to do that. And I will say this! I have friend that's older than me by a lot, and she has said that she wishes she had the same terms when her marriage was young. 

 

Oh, absolutely - it's helpful to be able to say - actually, what I want is not just a hand with x, y, or z, but someone else to manage that task.  And sometimes it takes a while to figure out that is what you actually need, not just an assistant.

But most of the articles I read on this tend to be very negative toward the spouse, who seemingly is supposed to understand what the real problem is quite easily.  And they also seem to express a certain amount of frustration when these new jobs are not done to the standard of the person doing the complaining.  Not - gee ,you forgot to feed the kids lunch, but gee, the lunch isn't what I would consider to be a good lunch and you need to feed them a good lunch.  

It's also important to be able to talk about those elements, but it doesn't seem to feature much in these kinds of articles.  Which IMO makes them a lot less helpful than they could be.  

[Storygirl]

14 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Oh, absolutely - it's helpful to be able to say - actually, what I want is not just a hand with x, y, or z, but someone else to manage that task.  And sometimes it takes a while to figure out that is what you actually need, not just an assistant.

But most of the articles I read on this tend to be very negative toward the spouse, who seemingly is supposed to understand what the real problem is quite easily.  And they also seem to express a certain amount of frustration when these new jobs are not done to the standard of the person doing the complaining.  Not - gee ,you forgot to feed the kids lunch, but gee, the lunch isn't what I would consider to be a good lunch and you need to feed them a good lunch.  

It's also important to be able to talk about those elements, but it doesn't seem to feature much in these kinds of articles.  Which IMO makes them a lot less helpful than they could be.  

By the time someone writes an article like this, chances are that there have been years of discussions with the spouse already. I think the articles are really about how HARD it is to communicate the problem in a way that is understandable to a person who does not experience this kind of mental load themselves.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Bluegoat]

9 hours ago, EmseB said:

Confession that I am the person that would leave the box down because I got the thing I needed and then a kid needed his butt wiped and then someone wanted a snack and then someone skinned their knee outside and I literally don't think about the box for the rest of the day. If my husband got home and said, "Why is this box down here?" I would think, "Oh, yeah, I forgot to do that!" If he got all chapped at me because it's so obvious that you're supposed to put something away when you're done with it and passive aggressively got mad at me the longer I left it out and raged at me because he had to ask, I would be a) probably devastated and gutted and cry, but I should probably be b) mad that he cares more about a box in his way than possibly being kind to me and asking me like a human to put it away or seeing something that needed done and just doing it. Or not treating me like an idiot because I leave things undone sometimes. In other words, if my husband treated me the way that wife in the article was talking about her spouse, I would feel like a crap person every day, but it wouldn't necessarily make me a better rememberer of things or housekeeper. I try to be considerate of those around me and take care of a lot of people around here, but if socks left somewhere or a box left out or a project left undone is going to get their panties in a wad then we're all going to have a bad time.

The scenario you describe is more likely to be me, the wife, forgetting the kid's pull-ups in the suitcase or forgetting my own toothbrush. I assure you I don't do it so that someone will roll their eyes at me and take over the task in a huff. I am thankful the people around me just drive around to the Walgreens to pick up an extra pack and realize people forget stuff.

I don't think of it as low expectations, I honestly think of it as I'm living with another human being and how do I want to be treated when I inevitably miss something during my day because I'm not perfect.

When I was working, I rarely had more than one task going on like that and was able to be much more detail and checklist oriented, especially when it came to my time in the military. When I had to clean my barracks for inspection, that is literally the one thing I focused on doing while I was doing it because that was my task. Also, no one was running through every 5 minutes and throwing crap on the floor during my cleaning job, except maybe getting tossed in basic. Even in the military, when the poop hit the fan and everything was happening at once, one person can only do so many things and you after-action and find out what got dropped and why. And sometimes it was stupidity and someone needed to get fired or yelled at. My marriage and my home life is not that way. Thank God.

 

I will say, I actually became so much better at a lot of this stuff when I was in the military.  And having kids has helped too, I can keep a lot more in mind than I used to be able to, I keep a lot of balls in the air.

I am still pretty crappy at many of these things, and dh, thankfully, is willing to be graceful about it.  He steps in for some of the things I struggle with, and he also is pretty nice about it when I leave tasks half finished.  Not always - he complains a lot that I tend to throw laundry at the bin from the top of the stair, and it falls next to it and I don't go down and pick it up....  well, that is a bit of a stalemate really.  On some things too I have tried to improve where I know it really annoys him.

I don't know - this lady just really rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, the bit about the social calendar, birthdays, and so on.  Well, you know, if she wants to remember everyones birthday, that is nice.  Some people are like that, and I enjoy it.  I do not expect it of people, however.  If she says she does not want to do that, and her dh doesn't really want to or think it's necessary, it really is an option not to do it.  It really is an option to have a less complicated social calendar.  Thousands of parents get along fine without reading every detail of the school handbook.

[Bluegoat]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Because grown people aren't perfect and deserve grace? Because grown people have different acceptable levels of clutter, cleanliness?  Grown people often need instruction and direction, too. 

There are wildly different standards in keeping house.  Someone in this thread was talking about having the livingroom "company ready" at all times, and mentioned that their husband never remembers to have fresh flowers.  I thought "Fresh flowers?! This has never been on my radar for 'company ready'.  Ever".  I bet their home is lovely and the flowers are so pretty, but I'm glad it's not a universal standard as I would fail to meet it, every single time unless I was reminded constantly, lol. 

There's so much energy tied up in feeling frustrated that she has to ask for help from him. She's a grown person living in that house, too.  Why can't she use her words like a grown person? 

 

 

Yeah, I totally agree with his, being the flower person.  I actually don't tend to have a super-neat house, but I like flowers because they make me happy.  I think it's just fine that my dh doesn't care about that, or that he doesn't care much about how ugly his comfortable chair is.  I care, so I deal with it, mostly.

And yeah, people's standards of a tidy house can be radically different.  My mom is a perfectionist, her house in immaculate and uncluttered.  My grandmother - not so much.  And then - I went to visit a farm once to look at their sheep.  Perfectly nice people the husband and wife were both professional scientist.  I don't think anybody had actually ever cleaned their house.  At all.  The dishes were somewhat clean.  Obviously this seemed to work for them as they had been married a long time, but it was pretty far away from the magazine home that seems to be the ideal for many other people.

[unsinkable]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

The Collier brothers were "grown people" with a "different idea" of clutter and cleanliness, and let me tell you, they needed to pick up their things and put them away. This isn't rocket science.

Why should she have to manage her husband like he's some teenager at his first job? If he has time to lean, he has time to clean.

They were clearly mentally ill. I don't think it is a valid comparison.

[Bluegoat]

5 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Are we talking about ONE tub? Or is that a single example that she picked because writing up an entire list of tubs, and dirty socks, and left-out dishes, and unpacked clothes would be an unpleasant read AND more of a mental load for her?

 

So when he gets home, he gets downtime, but when she gets home she gets to pick up his dirty clothes and the bin he left out on the floor and THEN she can have her downtime, is that it? After she returns the chair to the kitchen, I mean. And then in the morning he gets dressed for work, and she chases the kids around and gets them dressed without his assistance. Why should she have to tell him to act like half of the parenting duo and do 50% of the chasing around? What would happen if she got hit by a bus, the kids would go to school without shoes? Nobody would ever drink milk again? C'mon. He'd cope, not sit around thinking "Gosh, shouldn't I be getting more downtime that doesn't involve making sure my children are cared for and our house is a home rather than a squat?"

(Full disclosure, I don't think putting the bin back on the shelf constitutes "cleaning" when YOU are the one who took it down. Nor do I think it is arcane magic that men can't handle. "Return things to the way you found them" is a rule we expect of kindergarten children. Nor do I consider it "cleaning" to put your own dirty clothes in the hamper rather than, again, the floor. And if you are actually cleaning then you should definitely make the room you've chosen to clean, well... clean. You're not supposed to just pose with a mop and then expect kudos. My mother used to do that, actually. Fun fact I didn't learn until I was an adult: When you do the things you're supposed to do, you don't have to do as much of it. There is less cleaning when you keep things clean to begin with.)

 

No, if she wants downtime she should take it.

Leave the bloody tub where it is.

None of that implies that they would all perish if she were hit by a bus - they might live quite differently though.

There is something really unfortunate about telling someone that you are living with that they should just do what they are "supposed" to do, and guess who gets to define what that includes...

 

[historically accurate]

I will say that I think the world is set up to assume the wife does the mental load. For example, it has been MORE THAN 10 YEARS since I have set up my DH's medical appointments. I called them as a courtesy to him until we had kids and I had their schedules to worry about. I still get calls since I am listed as his emergency contact that it is time for his physical, and the dentist tells me every time I go in with the kids or myself that DH is late on his appointment. I say, "DH will have to call you or you can call him. I don't deal with that." They still call, text, and tell me in person. The man is 45 years old; he can handle it. 

I have mostly dropped menu planning/cooking since my DD's illness this past year. Guess what? We're fed, but if I have to eat McD's one more time, I will run screaming from the house. So, I have been trying to figure out how to add that back in to my mental and physical schedule. It sucks; it was the main area I struggled with before her illness, and now I just want good food to magically appear before me, but it never does. 

As for the tote, things like that drive me crazy and my DH is the king of the unfinished job. With my kids, I stand over the item and call them back every time. I can't do that with DH as he's not my kid. But, daily his cereal box is left on the table after he goes to work. He's had a sore on his foot that needs bandaging every morning for a week. Every day, I find the wrappers to bandaids, the scissors, the cut-up gauze on the coffee table. As I said, he's 45, he's not going to change anytime soon. It does drive me batty though.

As for his mental load, I am home all day, so I have taken most of it. But I have to get feisty to get DH to take over mental load of anything household related. A recent example: I refused to do DD's meds in the morning (I am not a morning person, so I am terrified I would do it wrong in my morning fog). He tried many times to "forget" to do it before leaving for work. He finally just does it now, but it took a solid month of me saying, "You take care of it. I don't trust myself." before he took it over fully. 

[MysteryJen]

I get frustrated with discussions of mental load because it does feel like complaining or whining and then there are all sorts of people who don't care or don't worry about it. I didn't mind carrying the mental load when my kids were small- because yes, we had a lot of them and I stayed home. It was my "job" in a sense and it made life easier for dh who could travel and work long hours and the whole system worked. I am good at that sort of thing and now, when the kids are grown/almost grown, and I want to not carry all this stuff around- that apparently no one cares about and isn't valued in any way, I still have to, unless I want to be a whiny, nagging complainer.

The emotional load of having teens and young adults is crushing. dh is still fun dad and I am still school/chores/curfew.  The kids call me when they are upset. Yay.

Our small house is easily overwhelmed by clutter. I am trying to gain mental space for myself alone- I need not to see a hundred things to put away or breakfast things left out on top of dinner cleanup half done. 

Making appointments, making sure a car is available, location of said appointments, being assured that things "will get done." like the garage that needs to be cleaned out for the last 16 months, but isn't getting done. 

The locator of lost things- where is...? Have you heard from...? 

So, for me, mental load is real. It is annoying to carry it and super annoying to be told that it just doesn't matter all that much. If I stop doing all of that, then I am selfish and lazy piled on top of the uselessness of being a SAHM to teens. 

Just frustrated by how predictable this discussion becomes.

 

[SKL]

Sometimes it is true that a spouse does not willingly help because the other spouse will brow-beat him/her over how the help was given.

It's a balance.  In the linked article to the OP, the guy sounded well-intentioned.  The wife seemed unreasonable to me.  Whether with the maid service or the tote/closet thing, she did not communicate what she wanted, and yet expected him to know exactly what she wanted before she actually asked.  Honestly, that is childish.

She tells us so articulately what she wanted her husband to do about the maid service.  Research multiple service providers, price compare, etc.  But to the guy who she expected to take these steps, she did not lay it out.  She is angry because his brain doesn't work exactly like hers.  And from the sound of things, she is ruining mother's day over it ... and let's be honest - mother's day isn't just about moms.  It's about the whole family, especially the kids.  Frankly it's a time to suck it up (at least when you have young kids), because life is messy.

It would be interesting to see what she would do if her husband said, "for father's day I want you to hire me a new secretary."

[SKL]

12 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Is this what people mean when they talk about "the soft bigotry of low expectations"? Even inasmuch as that statement is true, it's about as meaningful and useful as "men are taller than women". It tells us nothing of the functioning of the average man.

Listen, as somebody whose brain actually *does* "work differently", I still don't get a free pass on leaving my dirty socks hither and yon. (I know because every time I've tried it I've had people threatening to throw them in my soup.) I also don't get to just leave heavy boxes on the floor rather than the shelf I took them off of because it "isn't obvious" to me or other people "care more". It's obvious to anybody  who spends more than two minutes of thought on the subject that what comes down must invariably go back up. It's also obvious that if the only consequence of your own laziness is that your mommy or your wife rolls her eyes and gets sad and eventually does it for you then you'll find it easier never to learn to care about having a livable home. Can you imagine these men saying to their boss "Oh, I didn't know when you told me to get that thing that you intens' ded for me to put the box back on the shelf afterwards, you never said that! All you had to do was ask me to put it back!" or "Sorry, Sarge, when you said you wanted our barracks clean I didn't mean that meant I couldn't leave my dirty clothes on the floor afterwards. It's still pretty clean, right?" (And when it comes to failing to pack underwear or clean shirts for a trip, I find myself wondering if that wasn't on some level deliberate. "If I screw it up, at least I don't have to do it again." I assume he hasn't had to do it again in that case.)

I said differently.  I didn't say better or worse.

It's a fact.  Not a value judgment.

One of the biggest reasons for women's resentment is that men don't read women's minds.  It's women's fault they don't understand this.

[Storygirl]

I think this thread kind of illustrates the problem the article points out. People who do not understand how these things can feel burdensome really can't comprehend how crippling it can feel. So to them, it seems like complaining. It's not just a husband-wife thing, obviously, because there are women who are discounting "mental load" as a real thing.

[Storygirl]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

I said differently.  I didn't say better or worse.

It's a fact.  Not a value judgment.

One of the biggest reasons for women's resentment is that men don't read women's minds.  It's women's fault they don't understand this.

But the women are saying these things out loud. And the men still aren't getting it. And are, in fact, saying that the women should change their thinking.

I used the words "women" and "men" in that paragraph, but it's obviously not just a gender divide, because this thread is full of women telling other women that this "mental load" is baloney. Which is frustrating.

People say that the women are not communicating. But we are. We are saying how we feel, right in this thread, and in real life, too, and it's being discounted or debated or ignored or misunderstood.

I agree with MysteryJen that it's frustrating to try to communicate feelings about this. And then be told that the problem is that we are not communicating well enough.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[SKL]

10 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

I don't think that's it.  I know some women feel that way, but that's not what I'm hearing in this article. The way she is describing it is not that she wants him to see she is annoyed or might be annoyed and put the tub away.  It's "you live in a house and you got the tub out, why do you need to be told to put it away when people are tripping over it? You are a grown person living in this house."  

 

I'd be willing to bet that she has things "out" which he would consider clutter.  It's just different stuff.  Woman clutter around the house is acceptable but guy clutter is not.  Honestly, women are lucky that most men don't care about this kind of thing.

[SKL]

6 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

(Full disclosure, I don't think putting the bin back on the shelf constitutes "cleaning" when YOU are the one who took it down. Nor do I think it is arcane magic that men can't handle. "Return things to the way you found them" is a rule we expect of kindergarten children. Nor do I consider it "cleaning" to put your own dirty clothes in the hamper rather than, again, the floor. And if you are actually cleaning then you should definitely make the room you've chosen to clean, well... clean. You're not supposed to just pose with a mop and then expect kudos. My mother used to do that, actually. Fun fact I didn't learn until I was an adult: When you do the things you're supposed to do, you don't have to do as much of it. There is less cleaning when you keep things clean to begin with.)

I agree it's not much to ask etc.  However it's also not great behavior to get all pouty and huffy over some material thing on the floor.  My operating principle is that people are more important than things.  If the thing on the floor is that big of an issue to her, then kindly asking him to pick it up and to leave the floor clear in the future would be the way to go.  He might need reminders.  Eventually she might need to calmly tell him that she feels disrespected when he does that.  And would he please pick that up at his earliest convenience.  Or if he finds it too hard to do so, would he please take over one of the other household tasks so that she has time to do it herself.

[Bluegoat]

12 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I think this thread kind of illustrates the problem the article points out. People who do not understand how these things can feel burdensome really can't comprehend how crippling it can feel. So to them, it seems like complaining. It's not just a husband-wife thing, obviously, because there are women who are discounting "mental load" as a real thing.

 

But no one has said that mental load isn't a burden.  I'm not sure why you have that impression.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Storygirl said:

It's not just a matter of picking up one tub. That is not the point at all. It is not about the physical acts of keeping the house clean.Those are just examples to illustrate her point. It is about the MENTAL burden of being responsible for it all and carrying the responsibility in the mind as a burden. It's about stress. And articles like this may seem to have a complaining tone, but it's not about complaining. It's about trying to explain what it feels like to others who don't understand, so that they can understand better.

Except I'm guessing 99.99% of the readers are other women.

There is a productive way to address the issue so it gets somewhat resolved.  The model in the article wasn't it IMO.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Bluegoat said:

I don't know - this lady just really rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, the bit about the social calendar, birthdays, and so on.  Well, you know, if she wants to remember everyones birthday, that is nice.  Some people are like that, and I enjoy it.  I do not expect it of people, however.  If she says she does not want to do that, and her dh doesn't really want to or think it's necessary, it really is an option not to do it.  It really is an option to have a less complicated social calendar.  Thousands of parents get along fine without reading every detail of the school handbook.

Truth!  So much of our "mental load" is an outright choice we made ourselves.  We consider it worth the stress or we would drop things off the calendar / donate 90% of our stuff.  We clutter our lives and then whine about it.  (I definitely am guilty of this, but at least I don't blame others.  Usually.)

[SKL]

As for discounting mental load - I see nobody doing that.  If you are thinking I don't believe in mental load, then you are completely missing my point.  What I do see is the article's author discounting her husband's mental load.

I could write for days about all the things I've had to keep track of as a working single adoptive mom.  Just don't get me started.  I could put a lot of married moms to shame.  Believe me.  That is probably why I have some solutions - because I have needed them in order to stay sane.

[forty-two]

I agree that the mental load is real.  I've really appreciated the cartoon I saw that first made the concept explicit for me.  And since mental load is invisible, it *does* go largely unnoticed and thus unappreciated by those who don't know what goes into it. 

(I think that's true of a lot of jobs, actually.  In Harry Potter, our family has discussed Ludo Bagman and the Quidditch World Cup - I mean, *there's* a man who has no idea the mental load that goes into planning it and doesn't seem to think any of it's even necessary - he definitely wasn't appreciating all the hard-but-invisible-to-him work that his staff was having to do.  We actually discussed if being his assistant would be perfect or hellish for Percy Weasley.  On the one hand, since Bagman handwaves all the details, you'd have free rein to organize however you'd like, and you'd have the satisfaction of knowing you are *very* needed.  But on the other, you'd have to be able to live with little praise for doing a good job, since Bagman has zero idea what goes into a good job and basically assumes good jobs happen by magic.  And I think that stereotype - of bosses who don't appreciate all their employees do because they have no idea what the mental load is - exists for a reason.)

Honestly, I think what I'm reacting to in the article (which seems to be an excerpt from a book, Fed Up: Emotional Labor, Women, and the Way Forward, by Gemma Hartley) isn't the frustration of bearing a disproportionate share of an invisible-thus-unappreciated load.  Because I totally agree that it *is* frustrating.  I don't mind overmuch hitting the details others in the house miss - because it's a strength of mine, it's a gift I can give to my family plus a sensible division of labor.  The problem is that others miss them because they are largely invisible to others, and so while they all enjoy the results of it being done and feel the lack of it going undone, they have no idea that anything *was* done.  It's frustrating having one's labor be invisible. 

What I'm reacting to is *how* the author deals with that very legitimate frustration.  It's not that she finds it frustrating - I find it frustrating - but that there's this sense, not just that she shouldn't have to live with that frustration (that it's legit for her to take steps to change it) but that it's unfair that the frustrating situation exists in the first place.  That it's unfair that *she's* the one who has to take steps to change it.  I especially see that when the the author is discussing her kids, and how she's stuck doing stuff for them because she can't face dealing with their whining and refusal to listen.  She says it like it's not part of parenting to deal with kids not wanting to do what they are told. 

That's my issue, I guess - not her frustration, not her assumption that it's unjust that she's suffering the problem, but her assumption that, since it's unjust that she's suffering in this way, it's unjust that she has to be involved in seeking a solution.  It may well be unjust, but, idk, I don't respect how she's responding to that injustice.  She seems more focused on blaming others than in relieving the problem.  I mean, I think you can use the mental load concept and raise awareness of the impact and effects of the mental load without needing to apportion blame. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by forty-two

[SKL]

The fact that much of our contribution is often invisible is a valid point.

It is also true that much of the other person's contribution is often invisible.

The question I now ask myself is - is this a good or bad thing / why does it matter?  Unless you don't have mutual trust that each person intends to be fair, isn't it nicer for everyone to come together at the end of the day and just be happy and comfortable?  If we expect the other person to say "I noticed that you washed these socks so I could wear them, thank you" should we also have to say "I noticed you earned enough to buy this food we are eating, thanks"?  Accounting for each person's contribution is done when there isn't much emotional involvement.  Even I with my housemates/friends have moved beyond that, just laying out general categories of financial and domestic responsibilities and leaving it at that.  Occasionally it gets revisited, but it's a lot nicer to just trust each other and enjoy our shared home.  We all know that sometimes one person is contributing more than another person.  It isn't important enough to keep track and fume / fight about it.

[frogger]

37 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I think this thread kind of illustrates the problem the article points out. People who do not understand how these things can feel burdensome really can't comprehend how crippling it can feel. So to them, it seems like complaining. It's not just a husband-wife thing, obviously, because there are women who are discounting "mental load" as a real thing.

 

I don't think it is just complaining. I just have seen more men than women have to do everything and so threads like this drive me nuts but I realize it's not that way everywhere in every little cultural group in America. There are some sub-cultures where men seem to get a pass. In my sub-group, lazy is a 4 letter word and the men seem to get held to a much higher standard. When there is a divorce often the man not only raises his children but her biological children. He HAS to have a job. There is much gasping and pearl clutching over a SAHD and men are to be helpful at home too but I have to remember that my reality in my small world doesn't apply to the whole world.

When my husband and I both worked full time he was in charge of cooking meals every night and I was in charge of cleaning the house. We divided the labor according to preference. When I quit work I took over meals because I had more time. 4 kids later and with house number 3 being older and impossible to maintain the sheer number of tasks became overwhelming.

I think the mental load with teens ramps up tremendously. Giving everyone in the house the responsibility they can handle helps. Sometimes it is also best to give the Father the job of checking all the kids work every evening. Of course, that can't happen when he is in a different state. I think the concreteness of writing things down helps. 

I also think there is a difference in having different standards of cleanliness etc and a spouse who just refuses to help. Perhaps he just forgets his job and is overwhelmed and busy but at some point you are just refusing to change. Carrying the mental load of realizing all the things that need done is easier when the job actually gets done after you hand it over to someone.

 

 

 

[frogger]

21 minutes ago, SKL said:

The fact that much of our contribution is often invisible is a valid point.

It is also true that much of the other person's contribution is often invisible.

 

 

Exactly

[forty-two]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

The fact that much of our contribution is often invisible is a valid point.

It is also true that much of the other person's contribution is often invisible.

 

4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

I don't get the impression that the author realizes what is behind the household tasks her husband has taken responsibility for

This is part of what reduced my sympathy for the author: there was no acknowledgement that her husband does invisible work, too.  As far as the article was concerned, his invisible work was as unnoticed and unappreciated by her as she felt hers was by him.  Her detailing all the ways he doesn't think of anything outside himself while she was exclusively focusing on her own problems with nary a hint of acknowledgement wrt the good things he does do: it undercut her point with me.  She wasn't acting as she wanted her spouse to act.

~*~

WRT the larger question of, given that so much of what people do is invisible to others, especially others unskilled in that area, how should we live in light of that.  Especially since failures are so much more noticeable than successes in those areas.  On a small note, if I'm pointing out a failure, I try to bear in mind that there might be a ton of successes I missed.  I mean, you only notice the tote that *wasn't* put away, not all the totes that *were* put away.  So I try not to go down the "you *never* pick up the tote"/"you *always* leave out the tote" route.  One, because it's probably not even true - as I tell my middle, always/never are very strong words and not usually warranted - really think about if they're deserved before using them.  And two, because it makes the whole interaction start off negatively and guarantees it will be unpleasant for all concerned.  I try to use CM habit-training language - it's both low-key and free of negative emotions plus it hopefully is reinforcing the habit of paying attention to how things should be instead of the habit of only do things when mom points it out.  I don't really think of it as "me having to use a special tone of voice" so much as me forcing myself to be polite and keep my anger under control - it's about me regulating my emotions because it's a good work, not because "people won't listen" otherwise.  (Usually when I start yelling that no one pays any attention to what I say till I yell, it says at least as much about my refusal to get off my butt and do something effective as it says about those not listening.)

Also, I *do* try to pay attention and say thank you when I notice a good job.  And I appreciate when people do that with me.  Not as a "quid pro quo" accounting sort of thing, but to be kind.  To show I noticed and appreciated what they did.  (And it ups the positive work-related interactions, to hopefully help offset the occasional negative ones, so that our work-related conversations are a net positive, not a net negative.)  And just in general, I try to be aware that, just as so much of what I do is invisible, likewise there's a ton of stuff dh does that I don't see.  So I try to assume its presence, just as I hope he assumes the presence of the stuff I do that he doesn't see.

As a practical point, to avoid reminders turning into nagging, I do try to make sure that we are all in theoretical agreement about what needs to be done.  That way, if I notice something's undone and remind the responsible party, I'm just helping them do the job they already agreed to, not nagging them into doing a job they otherwise wouldn't agree to do.  Since I notice more and remember better, it's not a huge deal for me to take on extra mental load there, so long as the person I'm reminding is indeed on board with doing the thing - they just need help remembering, not "help" being annoyed into getting off their butt.  (If they start treating my reminders as nagging, I point it out and tell them to cut it out - they agreed this was a thing worth doing, so they need to act like it.  We're partners in getting it done, not one person annoying the other person into doing it.)

[TCB]

18 hours ago, EmseB said:

I don't know, sometimes I find I often just need to reframe whatever the issue is in my own mind. Like, that is the relief that I need and not for my spouse to apologize or do more or do whatever I think they are so obviously missing. Sometimes the problem is of my own making and I'm too far in my own head to realize that.

 

I understand my situation is not everyone else's.

I don't think that there is one right answer and that some have that answer and some don't. Reading through the thread I really get the feeling that some people's lives are similar to mine and some aren't and the ones that aren't just don't get what mine is like. I haven't discussed mine here but I can really identify with what some are saying so imagine their situation is somewhat similar to mine.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

If we expect the other person to say "I noticed that you washed these socks so I could wear them, thank you" should we also have to say "I noticed you earned enough to buy this food we are eating, thanks"? 

 

Actually, I think both of these are a good thing, and we practice them in our marriage.  We both make an effort to express our gratitude to each other.  DH comes home from a long day, it's not hard to hug and say, "thank you for working so hard for us".   We say thank you to each other for things like doing loads of laundry, or fixing something broken, or homeschooling.  No, it's not all the time, but it's enough to feel appreciated.   It makes a HUGE difference in the relationship.  

I have a friend who says, "Why should men expect so much praise just for doing things they are "supposed" to do?"  Why?  Because we all like to be appreciated and acknowledged?  Because life works so much better that way?  Because it is easier to carry a load when you know it is appreciated by the other parties who are benefited?

That is why I think understanding mental load is important.  Because just being acknowledged and appreciated makes everything easier to carry, for both sexes. The attitude of "that's your choice, don't do it if you don't want to, but don't expect me to be grateful for it" while at the same time BENEFITING from it, is what causes resentment.

[frogger]

One more thought,

I think we often forget the other person is a human. 10 years into my marriage I realized I was taking advantage of my husband. We were in a particularly stressful time of life with unusual circumstances and I was focused on the problems and the children and the to do list. If he forgot something it of course fell to me and added to my burden. What I realized one day was that I saw that thing come crashing down on me but not the other 99 things he had handled successfully or the things he had to deal with when I failed. It certainly sent my marriage on a different trajectory. To remember, he is a person with feelings and needs and stress. 

It has already been mentioned that obviously we all have very different circumstances and so talking in generalities is difficult but whatever solution is proposed it must take into account we are all fallible humans.

[EmseB]

I said in my first post that much of the stuff she talks about *is* exhausting. But it's life! It's stuff people do. It doesn't help to view all of it as stuff someone else isn't doing and the fact that they aren't doing it must be a personal slight. "Well, if he really noticed me he would have exhaustively researched cleaning services and picked just the right one in our budget instead of scrubbing the toilets himself," is not healthy. It's just not. 

There is invisible work that happens. We all love a clean shirt and a clean toilet and maybe don't have enough gratitude for the person in our lives providing those things. But keeping a mental tally of all of it and holding a grudge about it all will ultimately probably make only you really, truly miserable and everyone else just baffled.

[EmseB]

8 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

So when he gets home, he gets downtime, but when she gets home she gets to pick up his dirty clothes and the bin he left out on the floor and THEN she can have her downtime, is that it?

No, when she gets home she gets downtime if she wants. She is an adult. She can choose, just as he can choose. When I get home from, say, the grocery store, I don't immediately get to doing something else. I usually put a show on for the kids and put my feet up. I don't expect anyone, kid or adult, to get home from school or work or activity and start immediately doing what I think they should be doing (unless we're in a known time crunch for an event or something). The way you've framed this question seems odd to me. Like if he relaxes then she must have to pick up his bin and dirty clothes. I don't understand that sort of either/or. In our house if the above scenario happened...someone would eventually pick the stuff up and no one would really care who it was.

If he is a total deadbeat and does nothing but take downtime at home, then we're talking about an issue of a total deadbeat, which is different than deciding to not immediately pick stuff up when one gets home.

[Garga]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

As for discounting mental load - I see nobody doing that.  If you are thinking I don't believe in mental load, then you are completely missing my point.  What I do see is the article's author discounting her husband's mental load.

I could write for days about all the things I've had to keep track of as a working single adoptive mom.  Just don't get me started.  I could put a lot of married moms to shame.  Believe me.  That is probably why I have some solutions - because I have needed them in order to stay sane.

 

I get very, very nervous when I think of my dh dying—not just because I’d miss him so much but also because I have absolutely no clue how to do the things he does. I haven’t filed taxes in 27 years. I mowed the yard...once. I’ve never mulched, though the greenery gets muched every other year.  I’ve never trimmed the rose bush and I’ve never weed wacked anything.  The yard isn’t perfect, but that’s ok with me! I have no interest in taking on that monster of a task.  He can do it exactly the way he wants to, even though it’s not perfect.  

I’ve never had to figure out about treating the deck.  Don’t have a clue how to do it.  I have no idea how any of the electronics in this house work.  Sometimes, I want to watch a DVD and struggle to figure it out, because he has all sorts of wires going into and out of the tv and they have to be switched to use the DVD player.  I call him over and he helps me set it up.  I’ve never had to deal with finding the roofing guys, or the plumbing guys, or the HVAC guys.  DH does a lot of minot repairs on the cars and finds the best deals on car parts if he replaces them himself.  Sometimes, I remember to schedule the inspections and oil changes, but sometimes it’s him.  He puts up plastic over our leaky windows every year.  He takes the garbage to the curb and usually takes the recycling to the place, though I’ve done that a few times.  

I know there are plenty of other things he does that I know nothing about that I’m not even remembering right now, plus he is a great employee for his company—well respected.  

Now, for some women, they do all of the above and I can see where if they did all of those sorts of things and their dh’s only worked and then came home and sat around, that it would start getting crazy.  But for me, it’s just not like that.  So, I pretty much never complain about remembering birthdays or the kid’s schedules.  My dh takes care of a ton of things around here that I know nothing about and pay no attention to (until it goes wrong...like when the wifi drops.) I’m perfectly ok with having a mental load in areas that he is oblivious to.

A year or so ago, I started to get upset when I’d first heard about the mental load, and I was feeling put-upon, but then realized that for me, I don’t carry an unequal burden.  He and I both carry a burden, but in different arenas.  I do carry all of the educational burden with the kids and the medical burden and the emotional burden and the food burden and the pet burden.

For the women who carry it all, you have my sympathy.  If you have a decent guy, start handing some of it off!  And let him do it his way, even if it’s not your way.  If you have a jerk (and I hae a friend with a real jerk of a husband who refuses to do anything to help), then you have double my sympathy.

31 minutes ago, EmseB said:

No, when she gets home she gets downtime if she wants. She is an adult. She can choose, just as he can choose. When I get home from, say, the grocery store, I don't immediately get to doing something else. I usually put a show on for the kids and put my feet up. I don't expect anyone, kid or adult, to get home from school or work or activity and start immediately doing what I think they should be doing (unless we're in a known time crunch for an event or something). The way you've framed this question seems odd to me. Like if he relaxes then she must have to pick up his bin and dirty clothes. I don't understand that sort of either/or. In our house if the above scenario happened...someone would eventually pick the stuff up and no one would really care who it was.

If he is a total deadbeat and does nothing but take downtime at home, then we're talking about an issue of a total deadbeat, which is different than deciding to not immediately pick stuff up when one gets home.

 

When I get home, I most certainly put my feet up for a bit before tackling anything at home.  But I also have moderate standards regardling cleanliness.  I am ok with a bit of clutter.  Not filth; but I’m ok with clutter.  So, I an relax while there are chores waiting around me.  I’m ok with relaxing first and getting to them later.  Some people really aren’t ok with that.  They cannot relax until all the chores are done.  

Edited March 12, 2019 by Garga

[SKL]

56 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

Actually, I think both of these are a good thing, and we practice them in our marriage.  We both make an effort to express our gratitude to each other.  DH comes home from a long day, it's not hard to hug and say, "thank you for working so hard for us".   We say thank you to each other for things like doing loads of laundry, or fixing something broken, or homeschooling.  No, it's not all the time, but it's enough to feel appreciated.   It makes a HUGE difference in the relationship.  

I have a friend who says, "Why should men expect so much praise just for doing things they are "supposed" to do?"  Why?  Because we all like to be appreciated and acknowledged?  Because life works so much better that way?  Because it is easier to carry a load when you know it is appreciated by the other parties who are benefited?

That is why I think understanding mental load is important.  Because just being acknowledged and appreciated makes everything easier to carry, for both sexes. The attitude of "that's your choice, don't do it if you don't want to, but don't expect me to be grateful for it" while at the same time BENEFITING from it, is what causes resentment.

I agree with and do practice outward appreciation for things the other person does out of kindness, particularly when it involves unusual time or effort; but all parties understand that there are hundreds of other things for which neither of us is thanked and that's OK.

Honestly, it used to get under my skin some years ago when a certain person would always make a point to say "I unloaded the dishwasher" ... and then person 2 would make a point to tell me, "she unloaded the dishwasher, see how helpful she is ... I think she does more than her fair share."  And I would say, "well I actually do a lot all day, I just don't talk about it."  And they would say, "well why don't you talk about it?  You should."  So we kind of had it out, with me listing the hundred household chores I do without saying a word, because it needs doing and I'm probably the best person to do it.  Then I said, "and no, I am not going to make a daily list of every task I do that benefits someone else.  Just know that if you are not doing these things, I must be doing them.  And if Person 1 decides to unload the dishwasher once in a blue moon, remember that someone else has been cleaning the kitchen from top to bottom every other day of the year."

So ... not all of us need or want the daily recognition that we are the reason the house doesn't look and smell like a garbage dump.  We just want it to be assumed that we are trying to be fair and decent.

[goldberry]

Here's an anecdote for those who think the problem is women not communicating:

My friend had hemmorhoid/plus additional in that area surgery.  Before her surgery, she told her husband, "I need you to take care of food for everyone after the surgery.  I don't care if you cook, takeout, whatever, I don't care, I just need you to take care of it so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it."

After surgery, friend is soaking in tub.  Daughter knocks on door and asks what's they are doing for dinner.  She says, ask your father.  A few minutes later, husband knocks on door.  "What do you want for dinner?"  Friend says, "Whatever you want, just take care of it."  He goes away.  A few minutes later comes back and says, "Did you decide what you want for dinner."  My friend, soaking in tub and in pain, says, "I said just take care of it, I don't care."  A few minutes later he comes back again and says, "is pizza okay?"  The funny/not funny part of this is that they have been married 10 years+, and my friend does not like pizza.  She never orders pizza, she only gets it when there is a gathering or something where everyone wants pizza.  But of course at this point she says, "Fine."  She will eat the pizza.  Later she is a bit cranky and he says, "Why are you cranky, I'm taking care of everything like you asked."  And the thing is, he really thought he was.  He was willing to provide the work, but was either incapable or unwilling to bear the mental load of the work.  He wanted her to tell him exactly what to do and he would do it.  She wanted not to worry or have to think about it, and she told him that.

This is a 50-something year old man, with a successful job and a masters degree.  

 

[HS Mom in NC]

People can choose to live like this or not.  I chose not to.

Everyone at my house does their own laundry starting at age 10.  Everyone contributes to chores (as a trainee along side mom at ages 4-5, independently at age 6+ with checklist in hand for complex jobs like cleaning bathrooms) that rotate every month and deadlines for when they have to be done. People keep track of their own stuff here. Keys have a home and that's where they go as soon as we walk in the door.  My husband picks up after himself, I don't pick up after him like I would a toddler.  All events are on the centrally located calendar on the fridge.  If you didn't know when it was it's because you chose to be ignorant by averting your eyes instead of looking at the calendar. If you didn't put it on the calendar, you don't get to complain about someone else not knowing about it. Teens get themselves up and are ready (self-groomed and self-fed;I don't do breakfast)  to start school by 9am or they lose their privileges for the rest of the day. If you don't do your scheduled chores after school and before free time you lose privileges for a day. I inspect and enforce earlier on so that later on they know it better be done right or they'll have to redo it after I had to retell them what they already knew like a supervised toddler.

I keep an Amazon Wish List updated for gift giving occasions, but if there's something I want other than a selection for that list, I say so out loud in plain English in a matter of fact tone because I don't believe in mental telepathy. Usually my kids and husband ask me if there's anything I want for each gift giving occasion, but I don't every complain that someone failed to read my mind.

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Here's an anecdote for those who think the problem is women not communicating:

My friend had hemmorhoid/plus additional in that area surgery.  Before her surgery, she told her husband, "I need you to take care of food for everyone after the surgery.  I don't care if you cook, takeout, whatever, I don't care, I just need you to take care of it so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it."

After surgery, friend is soaking in tub.  Daughter knocks on door and asks what's they are doing for dinner.  She says, ask your father.  A few minutes later, husband knocks on door.  "What do you want for dinner?"  Friend says, "Whatever you want, just take care of it."  He goes away.  A few minutes later comes back and says, "Did you decide what you want for dinner."  My friend, soaking in tub and in pain, says, "I said just take care of it, I don't care."  A few minutes later he comes back again and says, "is pizza okay?"  The funny/not funny part of this is that they have been married 10 years+, and my friend does not like pizza.  She never orders pizza, she only gets it when there is a gathering or something where everyone wants pizza.  But of course at this point she says, "Fine."  She will eat the pizza.  Later she is a bit cranky and he says, "Why are you cranky, I'm taking care of everything like you asked."  And the thing is, he really thought he was.  He was willing to provide the work, but was either incapable or unwilling to bear the mental load of the work.  He wanted her to tell him exactly what to do and he would do it.  She wanted not to worry or have to think about it, and she told him that.

This is a 50-something year old man, with a successful job and a masters degree.

I would read that as him trying to take her preference into consideration along with everyone else's.  (I don't like pizza either, but I buy it because my kids love it.)

Personally I do not usually plan meals.  More often I ask my kids what they want as the evening rolls around, and if light cooking is involved, I might tell them to cook it themselves too.  So - here is a difference in how different people will handle a task if you hand it over.  Mom decides and does it; dad asks for consensus and then gets it done.  But why is it still mom's mental load?  Because she is bothered by the fact that Dad didn't do it her way.  She isn't willing to really give up the mental load.

As much as I feel for mom's sore butt, I can't relate to "don't ask me what I want, you worthless fool." 

Another mom in the identical situation might get annoyed if he got pizza without asking her.  Kuz again - it's different from how she thinks food should be done.

Edited March 12, 2019 by SKL

[Garga]

16 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Here's an anecdote for those who think the problem is women not communicating:

My friend had hemmorhoid/plus additional in that area surgery.  Before her surgery, she told her husband, "I need you to take care of food for everyone after the surgery.  I don't care if you cook, takeout, whatever, I don't care, I just need you to take care of it so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it."

After surgery, friend is soaking in tub.  Daughter knocks on door and asks what's they are doing for dinner.  She says, ask your father.  A few minutes later, husband knocks on door.  "What do you want for dinner?"  Friend says, "Whatever you want, just take care of it."  He goes away.  A few minutes later comes back and says, "Did you decide what you want for dinner."  My friend, soaking in tub and in pain, says, "I said just take care of it, I don't care."  A few minutes later he comes back again and says, "is pizza okay?"  The funny/not funny part of this is that they have been married 10 years+, and my friend does not like pizza.  She never orders pizza, she only gets it when there is a gathering or something where everyone wants pizza.  But of course at this point she says, "Fine."  She will eat the pizza.  Later she is a bit cranky and he says, "Why are you cranky, I'm taking care of everything like you asked."  And the thing is, he really thought he was.  He was willing to provide the work, but was either incapable or unwilling to bear the mental load of the work.  He wanted her to tell him exactly what to do and he would do it.  She wanted not to worry or have to think about it, and she told him that.

This is a 50-something year old man, with a successful job and a masters degree.  

 

To me, this is an example of the learning curve another poster mentioned.  If this was a more long-term hand off, she would continue to say, “I don’t care,” to all his questions about food and after a bit of time, he’d fully take on the job.  After some amount of time, he’d never ask her again.  But on the very first night of it, he obviously didn’t quite understand what to do and there was a learning curve involved.  

My dh has done the exact same thing:  I’ll hand off something to him, and he keeps asking me questions.  Without being mean about it, I just say, “Oh, I don’t care.  You can do it however you want.”  Lately, it’s about chopping.  He will help me chop veggies for dinner and say, “How big do you want X?”  I’ll say, “However you want it to be when you eat it.  You decide.”  He will often ask a few times, and I’ll just say the same thing over and over.  I refuse to take on that mental load of how big to chop things and let him do it his way.  And yes, there are a number of times where I wouldn’t have done it the way he does, but I leave it alone and don’t say anything about it.  I’m pretty sure that after a while, he’s going to stop asking me, or if he does ask, it’ll just be once.  It’s ok that he asks because maybe the recipe calls for the veggies to be chopped a certain way (in strips, cubed, etc.).  Sometimes, I just hand him the recipe card if it’s something I’m not cooking from memory.

But my dh does stop asking after a bit of time. He’s tried the old, “Well, if I don’t ask and don’t do it the way you want, you won’t be happy.”  And I’ve reminded him that I’m not the 19 yo teenager he married and I’ve matured and I’m ok if he does it his way now.  I’ve learned to be chill.  And then, after a learning curve, he takes it on for himself and does it his way without worrying that I’ll criticize the way he does it later.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Garga

[EmseB]

8 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Here's an anecdote for those who think the problem is women not communicating:

My friend had hemmorhoid/plus additional in that area surgery.  Before her surgery, she told her husband, "I need you to take care of food for everyone after the surgery.  I don't care if you cook, takeout, whatever, I don't care, I just need you to take care of it so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it."

After surgery, friend is soaking in tub.  Daughter knocks on door and asks what's they are doing for dinner.  She says, ask your father.  A few minutes later, husband knocks on door.  "What do you want for dinner?"  Friend says, "Whatever you want, just take care of it."  He goes away.  A few minutes later comes back and says, "Did you decide what you want for dinner."  My friend, soaking in tub and in pain, says, "I said just take care of it, I don't care."  A few minutes later he comes back again and says, "is pizza okay?"  The funny/not funny part of this is that they have been married 10 years+, and my friend does not like pizza.  She never orders pizza, she only gets it when there is a gathering or something where everyone wants pizza.  But of course at this point she says, "Fine."  She will eat the pizza.  Later she is a bit cranky and he says, "Why are you cranky, I'm taking care of everything like you asked."  And the thing is, he really thought he was.  He was willing to provide the work, but was either incapable or unwilling to bear the mental load of the work.  He wanted her to tell him exactly what to do and he would do it.  She wanted not to worry or have to think about it, and she told him that.

This is a 50-something year old man, with a successful job and a masters degree.  

 

But in reality what can you do about something like that? I'm not saying that stuff like that isn't frustrating, but I honestly don't know what do about a grown man who can't figure out how to feed his family. What can change in that situation? Other than the spouse saying, "this is what you taking care of dinner means," to a grown man...I just don't know. I am not married to a person like that, but I have worked with some. And my conclusion is that some of it is genuine daftness, some of it is learned helplessness, and maybe some of it is willfull. But if an educated person doesn't know what, "I am not having anything to do with planning or maling dinner," means...maybe he learned after that and was a better person for it?

[Arcadia]

24 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Here's an anecdote for those who think the problem is women not communicating:

...  He wanted her to tell him exactly what to do and he would do it.  She wanted not to worry or have to think about it, and she told him that.

This is a 50-something year old man, with a successful job and a masters degree.  

 

I assume they have been married for a long time. She is not talking in a lingo he comprehend for job requests. My husband knows what I would eat after 25 years and it’s a very short list.

My kids would eat for takeout:

Panda Express, Dim Sum King, fast food chicken burgers, cheese pizza (DS14 only), pepperoni pizza (DS13 only), KFC

I could just write that as a list and stick it to the fridge door. My husband would take care of buying the takeouts anytime I need him to. I could message him the list as a reminder if he forgets (or is not sure) and he ask me while leaving the office after work.

I only have to deal with at most our two cranky teens. He deals with insurance crap, and cranky colleagues and vendors. 

 

[SereneHome]

Articles like this one annoy the crap out of me bc they remind me of poorly done sitcoms, with one dimensional stereotypical characters.  

A few things I believe it when it comes to relationships and people

1.  The person best suited for the job should be the one doing it

2. No one can make you feel anything without your consent

3.  You can choose to see your partner's actions from a place of not caring or from a place of kindness.  I prefer to see it from a place of kindness with a bit of clueless mixed in

There are a lot of things that I do on a daily / weekly / monthly basis.  I do ALL the money related things, all the scheduling of everything, all the laundry, all the shopping and 99% of the cleaning and about 90% of cooking.  If I wrote this in an article, I would probably hear from many women that I should be looking for a divorce lawyer. 

But!  ever since the kids were born, I never made breakfast for them on the weekends.  Ever!  I am not a morning person and my husband knows that so he takes care of their breakfast on the weekends / holidays. I have never repaired anything in the house - inside or outside.  They only time I brushed kids' teeth when he is traveling.  I don't have to know anything about electronics in our house except how to charge my phone. I never had to do any research on any appliances or major purchases or repairs.  the list goes on and on.

Like @Garga said - we all have things in our "mental loads" (good grief, I dislike this term).   Just different ones.  And what makes a partnership good, in my opinion, if there is divide and conquer element build in.  Better for everyone.

I think some people have too much free time on their hands if they have time to ponder "mental loads" and such. 

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

No, when she gets home she gets downtime if she wants. She is an adult. She can choose, just as he can choose. When I get home from, say, the grocery store, I don't immediately get to doing something else. I usually put a show on for the kids and put my feet up. I don't expect anyone, kid or adult, to get home from school or work or activity and start immediately doing what I think they should be doing (unless we're in a known time crunch for an event or something). The way you've framed this question seems odd to me. Like if he relaxes then she must have to pick up his bin and dirty clothes. I don't understand that sort of either/or. In our house if the above scenario happened...someone would eventually pick the stuff up and no one would really care who it was.

If he is a total deadbeat and does nothing but take downtime at home, then we're talking about an issue of a total deadbeat, which is different than deciding to not immediately pick stuff up when one gets home.

 

Oh, gosh, this reminds me of something dh and I joke about, which kind of relates to this doing your part business.

There was a reality tv show on here, filmed at a local town, when we were early in our marriage.  In it, all the women in the town were sent to a resort for a week or so, and the men (and kids) stayed behind and had to take care of everything in the town.

Well, there was this one couple where the woman really did do everything, and all the man did besides his work was sit in the basement and carve ducks.  There was a hole in the ceiling of the house, right next to the stove, which he had been saying he would fix for a number of years, but he never quite got to it.  They showed the woman standing there cooking with water dripping on her from this bit of collapsed ceiling.

"Sitting in the basement carving ducks" has become a sort of relationship shorthand for when one of us feels like the other isn't pulling their weight or on the other hand, isn't feeling appreciated even if they aren't carving ducks.  

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Garga said:

 

 

When I get home, I most certainly put my feet up for a bit before tackling anything at home.  But I also have moderate standards regardling cleanliness.  I am ok with a bit of clutter.  Not filth; but I’m ok with clutter.  So, I an relax while there are chores waiting around me.  I’m ok with relaxing first and getting to them later.  Some people really aren’t ok with that.  They cannot relax until all the chores are done.  

 

My mom is like that.  It's not a really good thing though, it can create a lot of stress.

[unsinkable]

A man who might be my husband called the wrong electric company when we had a power outage and insisted we were customers, that we had been for decades, and that  our power was OUT! And they needed to FIX IT. 

LOL

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I absolutely don't read it that way at all.  I read it exactly as goldberry does and that's exactly what it means for one spouse to be carrying the mental load of the house.  Mom clearly told him in advance, she doesn't even want to have to think about it, and yet he goes and asks her to do exactly that.

She couldn't possibly have meant she did not want to think at all about the food she was putting into her mouth.  The back-and-forth was them clarifying exactly what she did mean.

He asked what SHE wanted.  If he was going on asking what each of the kids was allowed to eat, where he should order from, how to find the phone #, etc., then I could see the problem.  He took care of all the details other than checking her preference.  Yet instead of appreciating that, she finds fault in his consideration for her.  OK fine - but how can it be said that he didn't take on the mental load?  He probably gave it a lot more thought than her normal, since it was a new responsibility for him.  But let's make fun as if he is an idiot..

[frogger]

Nm

Edited March 12, 2019 by frogger

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Why couldn't she have meant that?  She was having surgery.  I can absolutely think that when she said "so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it" that she actually does mean "so I don't have to think about it and no one asks me about it."   That sounds like pretty much the clearest communication possible......why would anyone assume she means something different than what she actually said?

Because when the food goes into her mouth, if not sooner, she is going to think about it.

I am amazed that people think it's burdensome to be asked what food you'd like to eat.

I mean I don't even like food.  I have been known to say "surprise me" when asked that very question.  But that's my issue.

So for those of you who ask or take your husbands' opinions on what's for dinner - do you consider dinner a "mental load" that is on your husband and not you?

[And I suppose I'm setting my kids up for lifelong therapy since they get this question daily.]

Edited March 12, 2019 by SKL

[EmseB]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I absolutely don't read it that way at all.  I read it exactly as goldberry does and that's exactly what it means for one spouse to be carrying the mental load of the house.  Mom clearly told him in advance, she doesn't even want to have to think about it, and yet he goes and asks her to do exactly that.

 

 

For me a good example is when I go grocery shopping.  I do it every Saturday.  Without children or DH.  It's my job, my task, and pretty much my only time in a given week where I am without kids lol.  When I go, if I give DH a list of things like 

*Please have the kids do their chores (which are also regular, weekly, known things....they even have a chart on the fridge) 

*Please take the trash out (which is his known household task that we have explicitly discussed and has been his household task for the entire 17 yrs of our marriage)

*Please make sure the kids have clothes on when I get back so that everyone can help unload the groceries (which again, every week, kids unload the groceries from the van)

*Please have XYZ pile picked up out of the corner because ABC is happening later and I need the pile out of the way

All of those things will be done when I get back.  He's perfectly willing to do the actual parenting work or cleaning the pile work. However, if I don't remember ahead of time to ask him to do those things.....they won't get done.  Some weeks, the kids are up and dressed before I leave, so I don't have to remember to tell him to make sure they are dressed.  But if they aren't dressed, I shouldn't have to remember to tell him to make sure they have clothes on so that they can help unload when I get back.

 

I kind of threw a mini fit about it once.  Not screaming and yelling but what happened is that I had gone shopping on a Saturday in December and of course, the stores were crazy.  So I was pretty cranky when I got home.  It took way longer than it should have to shop, I was tired and it was already 2 in the afternoon.  I walk in the door and at 2 in the afternoon, all the kids are in PJs still. And I love a PJ day as much as the next person, but children cannot help unload a car full of groceries in December in their nightgowns.  Rather surprised, I said "why are they still in their PJs."  And he innocently said "well, you didn't text me to remind me."  Um, no, I really shouldn't have to send you a text at 1pm to remind you to make sure the kids have their clothes on when I get home.  It got better for a while, and now that they are older, they mostly remember to get themselves dressed.

 

Now, having said all this, I am not exactly complaining or martyring or anything.  We work through it.  And little by little, things do change.  For a long time, the decision work about the budget was all on me, until I stopped deciding and basically forced him to actually think.  Sometimes, it really came down to "I don't know where to send this money, what do you want to do? and he would say "I don't know, what do you want to do" and I would say, "I don't know, I can't decision, I need you to think about it more."  So now, generally, we do handle most of the budgeting decisions together.  But yeah, it really did take a lot of telling him over and over that I need his help making the decisions.  I have no problem being the person doing the....*doing*...of the budget.  Get the cash out for gas money, paying the electric bill, setting up the auto pay for the rent, etc etc.   What I needed help with was the thinking process of the budget.  The mental load of the budget.

I think so much of this is personality and individual expectation dependent though. I'm not trying to pick on you, but your examples are here, so I'll use them hypothetically at my house. Like, for kids in PJs, I'd just come home and say, "get your clothes on and bring in the groceries."

And I still think of reversing the scenario. If DH came home on a day of me being with the kids and was pissed at me because they weren't dressed and ready to bring in groceries...I'd probably be angry and somewhat scared myself, TBH. I wouldn't think of blaming him for not texting me and telling me to do it, but I would be seriously, seriously confused.

And unless there was something urgent needing to be done, I would let him structure his day with the kids how he wanted. Why would I care if they did their chores before or after I got back from a shopping trip? Ariund here a Saturday home with Dad looks somewhat different than a Saturday home with Mom, but were two different people so that makes sense to me. I dont try to have them do what I would if I'm home if I'm not home. He does not leave me a list of to-dos when he goes to work (I would probably laugh and laugh bc I can't keep up with my own plans much less someone else's!)

So I understand how a lot of these things would be frustrating to people with different expectations than myself. But I also can't conjure up other people's expectations if they don't occur to me, KWIM?

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Generally speaking, I actually don't ask my DH's opinion about dinner.  I do the meal planning myself.  Occasionally, though not often, I will ask if he has something he has been craving.  And then I am the person who decides if the dish actually makes the menu, and which day it's made on (it will usually make it on the menu, but it has to make sense within our schedule.  Meals that take time to make cannot happen on nights we have scouts, for example.)  Now, DH grills regularly.  So I do ask him "do you want to grill on XYZ date."  And when he grills, most often, he doesn't really ask what I want him to grill.  He decides what he want's to make, and then makes it.

And, I can pretty much guarantee that most of the time, when food is set in front of DH, no, he doesn't really think about it.  He says "thanks for dinner" and then eats.  

So when you do ask him if he has something he would like to eat, does he get huffy and whine to his friends and say "can you believe that she asked me about dinner?  As if I don't have enough to worry about!"

[EmseB]

35 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Oh, gosh, this reminds me of something dh and I joke about, which kind of relates to this doing your part business.

There was a reality tv show on here, filmed at a local town, when we were early in our marriage.  In it, all the women in the town were sent to a resort for a week or so, and the men (and kids) stayed behind and had to take care of everything in the town.

Well, there was this one couple where the woman really did do everything, and all the man did besides his work was sit in the basement and carve ducks.  There was a hole in the ceiling of the house, right next to the stove, which he had been saying he would fix for a number of years, but he never quite got to it.  They showed the woman standing there cooking with water dripping on her from this bit of collapsed ceiling.

"Sitting in the basement carving ducks" has become a sort of relationship shorthand for when one of us feels like the other isn't pulling their weight or on the other hand, isn't feeling appreciated even if they aren't carving ducks.  

Before we married, we read an anecdote in a marriage book from a guy who thought he was head of the household and as such he didn't think it was wise for him to do every chore his wife asked him to because she wasn't the boss or whatever, so he said he mentally flipped a coin every time she asked him to do something. Heads yes, tails no. The guy admitted to being an ass basically and I think got dressed down in counseling about this attitude, but I don't really remember.

ANYWAY, 15 years later a lot of times when one of us asks the other to do something we'll say, "I'll flip a coin." 😄

[Bluegoat]

About the husband being asked to take over the food.  I understand that could be frustrating, but I don't think it's an unusual scenario when someone is doing something newish.  I know I've occasionally taken a job when dh is away, and found, when I went to do it, that I was actually clueless about the thing, not even knowing what had to be done or where to find the things I needed, or that I hadn't done some necessary previous step.  

[Shoeless]

35 minutes ago, unsinkable said:

A man who might be my husband called the wrong electric company when we had a power outage and insisted we were customers, that we had been for decades, and that  our power was OUT! And they needed to FIX IT. 

LOL

My ex husband spent a month calling the wrong number regarding a car accident where he was rear ended.  Our insurance company told him to call the other company, verify some info with them, and we'd have a check within 5 days.  ExH wrote the number down wrong and then proceeded to call that number every day for a month, leave voicemail with a company that was very much NOT an insurance company, and then act passive yet vaguely annoyed when a) he received no check and b) I wouldn't trouble shoot this problem for him, ("It was YOUR car and YOUR accident, husband.  YOU are unemployed and home all day doing nothing.  I am working 2 jobs and in school.  YOU have to find the solution for this problem if you want your car fixed").

The problem only got resolved when our insurance company called ME and said "The other company said you never called them. If you don't call, the claim will be closed and you will lose out on $7,000".  I got the correct number, called the other company, verified the info and had a check for $7000 in 5 days.

And then I used that check to rent an apartment, move out, and hire a divorce lawyer because I was DONE.