which is more important...writing for 4th grader or learning to read for K?

[caedmyn]

I'm having trouble figuring out which of these is most important.  DS9 (4th grade) is supposed to start a writing program this year but that hasn't happened yet.  And I haven't started a reading program with my K'er yet.  He may or may not be dyslexic (3 older siblings are dyslexic) but definitely has some issues with sound discrimination and I will have to remediate that first.  I don't know whether to make starting the writing program with a higher priority, or starting the K'er with reading.  There's no guarantee I'll fit them both in this school year.

Edited November 19, 2018 by caedmyn

[PeterPan]

I would start the K5er on the reading and find an idiot-proof, auto-pilot kinda way to sneak in some writing for the 4th grader. For instance, an idea I'm wanting to do with my 4th grader this year (maybe very similar) is a book of knowledge. So read an article and then notebook it. Now I'm having a really unhappy moment, because my Chrome browser bit the dust (grr) and that's probably where I had the tab open with the site that would let you search by topic, lexile index, etc. AND it would read the articles and maybe highlight. Mainer will know. 

What program were you wanting to do for writing? Was it meeting him right where he is or a stretch? Could you back up to an easier stage of writing and make it more independent by increasing structure or use of tech? And have you assessed whether he has narrative language needs that will hold him back or whether his issues will be more the spelling, working memory, etc. (ie. stuff that can be worked around with tech)? If the issues can be worked around with tech, then structure independent work tasks for the writing that are small but able to be done. If he has narrative language issues, then it might be more efficient to teach all the kids together. You might decide in that case to get the K5er through Barton 1 and 2 and then begin narrative language work with all of them.

And btw, just in case anyone wants to criticize, I'm not saying defer on writing 3 years or something. Doing Barton 1 or 1/2 with that dc is a few months. So if she uses some graphic organizers, writing prompts that he can complete with tech, Mad Libs, dictating sentences to summarize chapters after he listens to audiobooks, ANYTHING for the next month or two, then she'd feel more free to slow down the pace and get something going with the older dc. Meanwhile the older dc could be working on independent work skills, use of tech, really useful foundational skills and habits. It's more a matter of automating it.

Nuts, he could even listen to audiobooks and do lego builds for each chapter. I picked that up at the convention this week and just bought baseplates on amazon to have my ds do this. Dollar Tree has small ones too, so it doesn't have to be $$$. At the school the people were presenting about, they have the kids make a lego scene for each chapter to drive narration. So he could listen to a chapter on audio, build, narrate into his tech, rinse, repeat. It's more (to me) a question of his language and what a good next step would be. They also suggested using those small plates and having the kids build beginning/middle/end. So like if you're doing IEW Fables or a Fables level of the progym, he could listen to it on audio or have his tech read it and then build beginning, middle, end, and narrate it into his tech. Gotta automate and that is worth the time to learn those skills. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Think I found it!!  It's ReadWorks

 

 

[mamakelly]

For me, the priority would be teaching the kindergartner to read. You can find online writing programs that would work well for a fourth grader. Out school, time4writing, Online Scribblers, etccc might all work well for you.

[lulalu]

Well, I would say learning to read really can wait until 7. I would focus on writing with the older child. 

 

[8filltheheart]

I'll be contrarian and say both, though not to the same degree. If you could spend 20 mins a day with the Ker doing simple phonics songs and rhyming games, that will help strengthen his phonemic awareness. But if you can't do both children, I would prioritize the 4th grader, not the Ker. 

Dyslexic children can really struggle with writing, so not working with your 4th grader could just leave a bigger hill to climb in the future then he might face with some basic skill work now.  If nothing else, you can use copy work selections to teach the fundamentals of writing. You can have him copy short nonfiction paragraphs and use those paragraphs to teach topic sentence and supporting details.  You can have him write simple how-to paragraphs (how to build a _______, how to bake brownies, how to catch a fish, anything he is familiar with). How-to paragraphs are nonthreatening writing exercises that force them to keep their thoughts in logical order bc they must keep the sequencing in correct order for it to make sense. You could also have him outline simple non-fiction articles pulled from online about different subjects. Just google whatever subject for kids and all kinds of age appropriate articles should be available.  Online articles for kids are already sequenced in a simple, basic structure so outlining them is easy.  Once he can outline them, you can have him create his own article from his outline.

[MrsRobinson]

I would set up the Ker with Reading Eggs (or similar), Leap Frog Letter Factory, Leap Frog Phonics Farm, maybe even a Leap Reader (Xmas gift?) and set aside a time every day for him to spend with his reading activities. If you do bedtime stories, I'd switch those to easy readers. You read and point with your finger as you go. That's it. 

Then focus on the 4th grader. I am currently trying to dig my 5th grader out of a hole very close to what 8filltheheart described (or was it climbing a hill?😉). It is so much more stressful than waiting to formally teach reading to a first grader. 

[Ellie]

See, I don't think a "writing program" needs to be all that, so I don't think there's any reason that you have to choose between teaching a 5yo to read and a 9yo to write, especially since the writing process will be ongoing for many years.

[Ausmumof3]

I would say both!  But they don’t need to be hard.  You can do 15 minutes of reading with a reliable program for k er and find something semi independent for fourth grader.  You will need to find time for editing or feedback at some point but she’s going to learn something which is better than nothing.  IEW is expensive but even have video lessons.  Otherwise at least have her journal as a minimum.  

[sweet2ndchance]

I vote both by working on phonemic awareness in little bites with the 5 year old without worrying about getting him reading this year, if it happens it happens but just spend 15 - 20 minutes a day, broken up into 5 minute increments if need be working on phonemic awareness. Then work with your 4th grader on writing, also in small bites. You have gotten some excellent advice on how to teach writing without adding much to your load so I really don't have anything to add to it but I would prioritize teaching writing to the 4th grader over teaching reading to a 5 year old who still needs work on phonemic awareness. Phonemic awareness work is easily accomplished with games and songs and can (and in my opinion should) feel more like play than work. Learning to read will go so much more smoothly when he has phonemic awareness in place.

Edited November 20, 2018 by sweet2ndchance

[knitgrl]

15 hours ago, caedmyn said:

I'm having trouble figuring out which of these is most important.  DS9 (4th grade) is supposed to start a writing program this year but that hasn't happened yet.  And I haven't started a reading program with my K'er yet.  He may or may not be dyslexic (3 older siblings are dyslexic) but definitely has some issues with sound discrimination and I will have to remediate that first.  I don't know whether to make starting the writing program with a higher priority, or starting the K'er with reading.  There's no guarantee I'll fit them both in this school year.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't have the kids or the time constraints you do, and my goal for ds5 at the end of this year is that he can write the letters of the alphabet and know their sounds. This takes us about 5-10 minutes a day. We have flash cards with the letters and I teach/ask him what sounds they make, and then I dictate the sounds and he writes the letters in cornmeal, on the whiteboard, or paints them. If he learns to read by the end of the year, that will be exciting. If not, we will work on it next year and that will be fine.

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, caedmyn said:

starting the K'er with reading.

Did you already run the screening tool to see if he needs LIPS/FIS or something first? I agree with the comment on developmental appropriateness, but I still I'd do something. Like if he needs LIPS, go through that and Barton 1 and then go to a slower pace. There's nothing inappropriate about LIPS/FIS for a 5 yo unless there's a developmental delay. 

There's a lot of value to getting that phonemic awareness piece repaired if you can. It would allow you told hold it with things like Melissa and Doug spelling puzzles (picture and spots for the letters), software, etc. You have more options if you get that piece in place. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

I vote start with the Ker.  For the 4th grader, I would do some copywork from Writing with Ease and call it good.  Or have him do these with a dry erase marker if you just want some kind of content:

https://www.lakeshorelearning.com/products/language/writing-grammar/ready-to-write-prompt-box-gr23-/p/PP568

(I used this with my fourth or fifth grader.  She finally came into writing halfway through 7th grade, where it was much easier.  She just had to age into it.  She still hates it, but she can do it.)

[caedmyn]

4 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Did you already run the screening tool to see if he needs LIPS/FIS or something first? I agree with the comment on developmental appropriateness, but I still I'd do something. Like if he needs LIPS, go through that and Barton 1 and then go to a slower pace. There's nothing inappropriate about LIPS/FIS for a 5 yo unless there's a developmental delay. 

There's a lot of value to getting that phonemic awareness piece repaired if you can. It would allow you told hold it with things like Melissa and Doug spelling puzzles (picture and spots for the letters), software, etc. You have more options if you get that piece in place. 

Yes, he needs LiPS etc.  I would go at a slow pace regardless, maybe 15 mins/day.

[caedmyn]

The other side of this is that the 9 yo has a sensory diet for his sensory seeking that is mostly not getting done.  He's probably going to need to do vision therapy. And the 5 yo needs to start speech therapy again.  Somewhere I need to fit all these things in every day too.

[8filltheheart]

Why don't you start by listing what you are consistently doing every single day now. Not what you want to be doing or think you should be doing or plan on doing. In order for people to help you progress to incorporating everything you should be doing, it will help if they can see the big picture of your daily life now.

Working on phonics with your 5 yr old should at max take 20 mins or so a day. Writing with your 4th grader about the same. Therapies should not inhibit 40mins a day.

If I had to cut something out of my day, I would look for something extra, not something core.

[caedmyn]

On 11/20/2018 at 3:14 PM, 8FillTheHeart said:

 

Nm

Edited November 21, 2018 by caedmyn

[freesia]

What about putting it after snack and before history?  History is probably easier for you and you will be less likely to skip it after.  History could even be done right before your nap.  I would prioritize the writing with fourth grader.  I probably do more like 5-10 minutes with mine (and the once every other week IEW video this year.)  Depending on how ready your 5 year old is to read, he may just be ready for 5-10 minutes.

[ElizabethB]

I would have your older children help teach the youngest phonemic awareness and phonics, it would be good review for them.  Spend a few weeks working on teaching them how to help your youngest with some phonemic awareness exercises and with daily drill of sounds with my charts, Don Potter explains how with similar charts here:

Here are my charts, you can also print out cards, use the black and white charts and cards and let them color them in.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/Resources/40LChartsCombined.pdf

Here is a good, age appropriate book with fun phonemic awareness activities:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1574712314/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then, alter they are trained, you spend two days a week where you teach your youngest a bit of phonics/phonemic awareness, 3 days a week you work on writing with older children.  The other 3 days a week, the older children teach the youngest phonemic awareness and go over the sounds on the charts.

After all the sounds are learned and the youngest can blend, work through my syllables program together as a family, the last half has some writing exercises, the youngest can just do syllables every lesson or the simplest level that can be handled.

 

[ElizabethB]

One more thought...

The kids need some home ec training over the holiday breaks, then, they need to be in charge of lunch.  

8 and 9 year olds are capable of making sandwiches and other simple fare, and soup or other heated items with supervision by you or the 12 year old. 

12 year olds should be able to cook almost anything.

If they were in charge of lunch, you would be able to work with the 5 year old while they make lunch.  On the days your 8 and 9 year olds were making lunch, you could supervise while doing oral phonemic awareness work with your 5 year old.

I would also start training them to make dinner once a week, then a few more times a week as they get older.  

They can also help more with the 2YO.

 

[Susan in TX]

I wouldn't do either one. Do phonemic awareness pre-reading skills with the kindergartener and for the 9 year old start Rod and Staff English 4th grade either in 5th or 6th grade. I would not use any other writing program before 7th grade. 

Susan in TX

[PeterPan]

On November 20, 2018 at 3:01 PM, caedmyn said:

The other side of this is that the 9 yo has a sensory diet for his sensory seeking that is mostly not getting done.  He's probably going to need to do vision therapy. And the 5 yo needs to start speech therapy again.  Somewhere I need to fit all these things in every day too.

Ha, I'm not the one to ask on OTs, because I'm pretty jaded. I'm not sure there's actually a lot of evidence that sensory diet makes a lot of difference. They tell you to do it and it can be calming, sure. But so is the park. Like seriously, I had an OT (that we really liked!) who had him doing stuff like I'm finding in this Sensorimotor Interventions by Koscinski book. It was nice, and one day I took him to the park for 20-30 minutes ahead and had him romp and drag huge branches, same effect, no cost at all.

Right now with my ds I tend to look toward lifestyle, things I can teach him to do TO HIMSELF, not things I have to do to him. Like I put up a pull-up bar and every morning do pullups multiple ways. Do situps. I have weights in our school room and I have him doing exercises with weights inbetween math problems. It's sensory, but it's realistic. I'm taking him to the Y and having him work out on the machines in the youth/women's gym, now that he's old enough. Talk about AMAZING sensory and calming!!

The other thing I find actually makes a difference is reflex work. I started brushing my ds' feet a year or so ago to work on some reflexes in the feet, and it was SO unbelievably calming for him that I've kept going. Brushing his hands has helped his handwriting be more comfortable, but I started that to work on some retained reflexes that connect the hands and mouth. 

The studies show that parents actually DO the stuff that makes a DIFFERENCE. So maybe look at that and figure out whether you're feeling guilty and having it on your list because someone told you it might help or whether it's on there because when you do it he's noticeably easier to work with.

The goal is to teach him ways to get his sensory so he can be able to do those things from a list and become independent. You want to think how the sensory input will transition in his teens to something he will choose. My ds likes exercise equipment, so if I can teach him to use it and build that proficiency, it's time well spent because it gives him a lifetime of use. My ds likes the treadmill, elliptical, and bikes too. Do you have something like that? Maybe try Craigslist? An OT at the convention was saying that they put exercise equipment in their calming room. They keep an elliptical in there and a weighted ball the kids can throw and catch. These are things he can be taught to do independently from a list.

You don't have time and I don't have energy, haha. If they can do it to themselves with training, that's where we need to be. Here, there was a really cool list I saw in an OT office. I'll get you the link.  Spell Your Name Workout - What's Your Name ... - 730 Sage Streethttps://www.730sagestreet.com › Wellness › Fitness  It's on my To Do list. Print/laminate and put on the wall, then you can just put a "word of the day" into his schedule and boom sensory. Or make your own list that is more targeted to things you need to get done (particular reflex exercises, an emphasis on bilateral activities or deep pressure, whatever). 

If he's compliant, you could do sensory breaks and teach him to use the Yoga Pretzels. You could put 3-5 on the board for the day with magnets and just put on his schedule break 1, break 2, etc. and he goes to do them. Teach then automate.

Another strategy is to require him to go outside and play or to create heavy work chores. (raking, digging, hauling, etc.)

Fwiw, I think Interoception work would make more of a difference than sensory. It would change his awareness of his body, which he could then use to change his behavior and choices. 

Also, you probably already know this, but really goose and gander here. If one kid needs sensory or reflex work, do it for all of them. 

 

[PeterPan]

On November 20, 2018 at 2:54 PM, caedmyn said:

Yes, he needs LiPS etc.  I would go at a slow pace regardless, maybe 15 mins/day.

I love your diligence there. Ok, I'll just ask. When your caboose comes in July, what does that do for your ability to work with them? Would that be a time to sneak one of them in? Like do you have more energy now, so you'd rather work with the older and do the 5 yo/LIPS while you're resting? Or maybe the reverse? I don't know, just thinking. 

How do your kids respond to jump roping? That's another thing that is easy to automate and good sensory input. Lots of input there. It wasn't on the list, but you could update that Spell Your Name page and put some more mature things in like that. jump rope forward 10 jumps, walk forward 5 steps while jump roping, 10 bicep curls, 10 sit ups, 10 russian twists, 10 narrow push-ups, 10 push-ups with an exercise ball, 5 bounce/catch with weighted ball. You could find videos on burpees and have them do 1-3 burpees for a letter. This is all heavy weight input that will be calming to their systems without taking any effort on your part after initial teaching. 

[Terabith]

If it's truly an either/ or situation, with the kindergartener needing foundational phonemic awareness stuff like LIPS, I would prioritize that over a fourth grader and writing skills.  I think in general, writing instruction (composition) can wait till sixth grade or so for most kids (assuming other language stuff is getting work...handwriting or typing, spelling, grammar/ punctuation).  If I had to choose, I'd work on LIPS with the Ker and stick the fourth grader on a typing program so that he/ she will be well equipped to start writing instruction in a couple years, once the Ker is reading.  

[PeterPan]

The thing that *shouldn't* wait on the 4th grader is narrative language intervention if there are narrative language deficits. But we're talking really basic stuff like ability to retell a fable, tell you about his day, glaring stuff. I don't know if any of C's dc have narrative language deficits, just saying in that case it's not wise to wait. 

It would be a lot of work to advocate and get it all done, but it's a shame the schools near her aren't able to provide good intervention with enrolling. Some schools really are doing such a good job now. There are stellar programs out there, if you push hard in the IEP testing to get the evidence and compel them to make goals. My ds has narrative language goals in his IEP on top of articulation behavior, writing, handwriting, blah blah. All these things C is dealing with OUGHT to be dealt with through an IEP by the ps. And if the ps had the resources, a team approach would make it so much easier.

I say that, and my ds isn't enrolled because they aren't ready to do all that for my ds, lol. But he has the goals and the programs exist! 

That's a rabbit trail. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by PeterPan

[Syllieann]

You’ve gotten some great ideas on how to get older kids to do more, which would allow you to do both.  To me those subjects are both must-haves.  My state requires both.  Maybe yours doesn’t, but it might help to imagine how you would feel if you sent your kids to school and you were told that they could either provide reading instruction to the K or writing instruction to the 4th grader, but not both.  Most parents would be aghast at that choice.  Hopefully you are able to find a way to carve out the time to do both or recruit additional help that allows the kids to both receive instruction.  If not, it might be time to consider school for a season-not necessarily forever and not necessarily for everyone.  I hope you are able to work it all out in a way that meets everyone’s needs.

[PeterPan]

I don't know if it's totally obvious or not, but the op's dc almost all have SLDs, significant learning disabilities, and some also have challenging behaviors, etc. My ds has SLDs and other things and an IEP, and I know it's hit or miss what would happen in the ps. It would totally depend on the district. The district next to mine has a killer OG program and you could enroll all the kids in a heartbeat. My district however has NO ONE, absolutely positively NO ONE trained in any best practice methodology for reading disability. It's utterly astonishing, and no one who knew would enroll their dc in that. I certainly didn't.

The op's dc appear to be reasonably bright, and she has put her emphasis on using the BEST intervention materials. This means that she's getting a lot of bang for her buck and making significant progress when she finally gets to intervene, because she's using really high quality stuff. She's just got a lot of issues piled on at once. 

Several posters have mentioned typing and tech. I think if someone hasn't had a dc with significant SLDs or other disabilities, it's hard to imagine just how much harder it is to get things done when EVERYTHING needs significant support. My ds, for instance, cannot write a sentence by himself at all. He's gifted btw, but he has significant disabilities. Nothing you do with a dc with significant disabilities is easy or typically independent. There's a lot of triaging, and sometimes there's foundational work to be done. 

So we have to respect the level of intervention she's needing to do here. I don't think waiting (on the idea that delayed instruction works for NT kids) is wise, but there's just a lot of reality too, sigh. I assume the op schools year-round, which means that she can stagger things and get where she's going. If she's only schooling 8-9 months a year, yes it's going to look a little more bleak. But if she schools year round and keeps using excellent materials and builds foundational skills, she'll get there. 

If the schools can do the intervention, it's worth pursuing. If they can't, then op is left to do it herself. Around here, a good OG tutor is $60-100 an hour and crappy ones (that delay getting to a good one) abound. It's actually WORSE to use a crappy, unqualified tutor who THINKS they know what they're doing than it is to wait and do good intervention sometimes, because you're messing with the psyche of the student. 

Writing is very possibly going to be a bucket full of worms and a mess as she unpacks it with this dc. There will probably be EF issues (organization, recognizing main ideas vs. details, etc.) and there could even be significant narrative language issues. Definitely the dc will need to learn tech and typing if possible. This is not stuff that happens in 15 minutes. It's going to need some significant focus, and the dc will probably RESPOND to high quality intervention materials for writing, just like they've responded well to the Barton. So as long as she doesn't delay too long and she comes in with excellent materials, she'll probably be ok. The advice to lay foundational skills like typing is solid.

[caedmyn]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:12 PM, PeterPan said:

Ha, I'm not the one to ask on OTs, because I'm pretty jaded. I'm not sure there's actually a lot of evidence that sensory diet makes a lot of difference. They tell you to do it and it can be calming, sure. But so is the park. Like seriously, I had an OT (that we really liked!) who had him doing stuff like I'm finding in this Sensorimotor Interventions by Koscinski book. It was nice, and one day I took him to the park for 20-30 minutes ahead and had him romp and drag huge branches, same effect, no cost at all.

Right now with my ds I tend to look toward lifestyle, things I can teach him to do TO HIMSELF, not things I have to do to him. Like I put up a pull-up bar and every morning do pullups multiple ways. Do situps. I have weights in our school room and I have him doing exercises with weights inbetween math problems. It's sensory, but it's realistic. I'm taking him to the Y and having him work out on the machines in the youth/women's gym, now that he's old enough. Talk about AMAZING sensory and calming!!

The other thing I find actually makes a difference is reflex work. I started brushing my ds' feet a year or so ago to work on some reflexes in the feet, and it was SO unbelievably calming for him that I've kept going. Brushing his hands has helped his handwriting be more comfortable, but I started that to work on some retained reflexes that connect the hands and mouth. 

The studies show that parents actually DO the stuff that makes a DIFFERENCE. So maybe look at that and figure out whether you're feeling guilty and having it on your list because someone told you it might help or whether it's on there because when you do it he's noticeably easier to work with.

The goal is to teach him ways to get his sensory so he can be able to do those things from a list and become independent. You want to think how the sensory input will transition in his teens to something he will choose. My ds likes exercise equipment, so if I can teach him to use it and build that proficiency, it's time well spent because it gives him a lifetime of use. My ds likes the treadmill, elliptical, and bikes too. Do you have something like that? Maybe try Craigslist? An OT at the convention was saying that they put exercise equipment in their calming room. They keep an elliptical in there and a weighted ball the kids can throw and catch. These are things he can be taught to do independently from a list.

You don't have time and I don't have energy, haha. If they can do it to themselves with training, that's where we need to be. Here, there was a really cool list I saw in an OT office. I'll get you the link.  Spell Your Name Workout - What's Your Name ... - 730 Sage Streethttps://www.730sagestreet.com › Wellness › Fitness  It's on my To Do list. Print/laminate and put on the wall, then you can just put a "word of the day" into his schedule and boom sensory. Or make your own list that is more targeted to things you need to get done (particular reflex exercises, an emphasis on bilateral activities or deep pressure, whatever). 

If he's compliant, you could do sensory breaks and teach him to use the Yoga Pretzels. You could put 3-5 on the board for the day with magnets and just put on his schedule break 1, break 2, etc. and he goes to do them. Teach then automate.

Another strategy is to require him to go outside and play or to create heavy work chores. (raking, digging, hauling, etc.)

Fwiw, I think Interoception work would make more of a difference than sensory. It would change his awareness of his body, which he could then use to change his behavior and choices. 

Also, you probably already know this, but really goose and gander here. If one kid needs sensory or reflex work, do it for all of them. 

 

Yes, it would be so much easier if I had a list of things he could do himself.  I've tried to come up with that myself but it didn't work too well.  I guess next time we see his OT I'll ask if she can come up with a program that's less mom-intensive.  

I guess part of the reason I haven't been getting his sensory stuff done is because I don't see a clear difference when we do it.  I hadn't thought of that before.  There have been times when I've seen a difference in him because of sensory work, like the first time he saw an OT he was a different kid for a day afterward.  But overall I don't see a difference  in impulsiveness or focus.  Maybe any differences after sensory work would be more noticeable this year since I am no longer doing Barton with him.  Barton lessons caused a lot of hyperactivity and often a lack of focus depending on what we were working on (he didn't mind reading but disliked writing sentences), and the rest of his schoolwork is not as bad.

I will have to try the name workout.  Maybe he can do it with his sight words for the day.  Doing sensory breaks is a good idea too.  Hopefully we can get a good-sized indoor trampoline and a doorway gym once we move, and maybe I can keep an eye out for an elliptical machine or stair stepper on Craigslist.  I could maybe take him to the gym with me, but I only use the indoor walking track and I think he might tend to run off and find random things to try out if I left him using a stair-stepper while I walked around the track.  (The track goes past the stair stepper area so he could be somewhat supervised but not fully supervised.)

[caedmyn]

On 11/23/2018 at 8:19 PM, PeterPan said:

I love your diligence there. Ok, I'll just ask. When your caboose comes in July, what does that do for your ability to work with them? Would that be a time to sneak one of them in? Like do you have more energy now, so you'd rather work with the older and do the 5 yo/LIPS while you're resting? Or maybe the reverse? I don't know, just thinking. 

How do your kids respond to jump roping? That's another thing that is easy to automate and good sensory input. Lots of input there. It wasn't on the list, but you could update that Spell Your Name page and put some more mature things in like that. jump rope forward 10 jumps, walk forward 5 steps while jump roping, 10 bicep curls, 10 sit ups, 10 russian twists, 10 narrow push-ups, 10 push-ups with an exercise ball, 5 bounce/catch with weighted ball. You could find videos on burpees and have them do 1-3 burpees for a letter. This is all heavy weight input that will be calming to their systems without taking any effort on your part after initial teaching. 

My signature is a bit off as I can't figure out how to update it.  Caboose baby was born last summer, so he's 4 months old.

I don't think he's tried jump roping.  I'll have to try that and burpees with him.

[caedmyn]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know if it's totally obvious or not, but the op's dc almost all have SLDs, significant learning disabilities, and some also have challenging behaviors, etc. My ds has SLDs and other things and an IEP, and I know it's hit or miss what would happen in the ps. It would totally depend on the district. The district next to mine has a killer OG program and you could enroll all the kids in a heartbeat. My district however has NO ONE, absolutely positively NO ONE trained in any best practice methodology for reading disability. It's utterly astonishing, and no one who knew would enroll their dc in that. I certainly didn't.

The op's dc appear to be reasonably bright, and she has put her emphasis on using the BEST intervention materials. This means that she's getting a lot of bang for her buck and making significant progress when she finally gets to intervene, because she's using really high quality stuff. She's just got a lot of issues piled on at once. 

Several posters have mentioned typing and tech. I think if someone hasn't had a dc with significant SLDs or other disabilities, it's hard to imagine just how much harder it is to get things done when EVERYTHING needs significant support. My ds, for instance, cannot write a sentence by himself at all. He's gifted btw, but he has significant disabilities. Nothing you do with a dc with significant disabilities is easy or typically independent. There's a lot of triaging, and sometimes there's foundational work to be done. 

So we have to respect the level of intervention she's needing to do here. I don't think waiting (on the idea that delayed instruction works for NT kids) is wise, but there's just a lot of reality too, sigh. I assume the op schools year-round, which means that she can stagger things and get where she's going. If she's only schooling 8-9 months a year, yes it's going to look a little more bleak. But if she schools year round and keeps using excellent materials and builds foundational skills, she'll get there. 

If the schools can do the intervention, it's worth pursuing. If they can't, then op is left to do it herself. Around here, a good OG tutor is $60-100 an hour and crappy ones (that delay getting to a good one) abound. It's actually WORSE to use a crappy, unqualified tutor who THINKS they know what they're doing than it is to wait and do good intervention sometimes, because you're messing with the psyche of the student. 

Writing is very possibly going to be a bucket full of worms and a mess as she unpacks it with this dc. There will probably be EF issues (organization, recognizing main ideas vs. details, etc.) and there could even be significant narrative language issues. Definitely the dc will need to learn tech and typing if possible. This is not stuff that happens in 15 minutes. It's going to need some significant focus, and the dc will probably RESPOND to high quality intervention materials for writing, just like they've responded well to the Barton. So as long as she doesn't delay too long and she comes in with excellent materials, she'll probably be ok. The advice to lay foundational skills like typing is solid.

Triaging...yes...everything requires triaging.  Everything and everybody requires SO much of me to get anything done.  I thought my 12 YO would be a big help by now but she is so spacey that she's not.  I used to have her help with cooking and meal prep, but it takes her so long and she needs so many reminders to focus that I've largely given up on that.  I ask her to watch the 2 YO and she does for 10 minutes and then all of a sudden she's disappeared and he's running around without her.  "Oh, I thought you were watching him now," she says.  My 8 YO is actually the most focused and, in some ways, the most mature of my older kids!

We don't school year round.  I need the summer off.  I do have them do some independent work like typing and math facts practice in the summer.  LIPS/FiS might be a good thing to do this summer.  It would be easier to fit it in then.  If the K'er had been going to a brick and mortar school I would not have started him this year as he's pretty immature even for a 5 YO boy so I don't think it's a huge deal to wait on teaching him to read.

I don't really see typing practice as being a help, at least not until several years down road.  DD started typing the summer between 3rd and 4th grade and still types less than 20 words/minute and doesn't feel comfortable enough with it to do any writing through typing.

I don't think my kids have narrative language issues.  I think I can manage writing if I have him do IEW's student intensive writing program when DD is doing it.  I have to watch the videos with her anyway so he might as well watch them too, and if I scribe for him it shouldn't take very long each day.  My goal is to get at least halfway through it this school year and finish the rest next year.

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, caedmyn said:

Yes, it would be so much easier if I had a list of things he could do himself.  I've tried to come up with that myself but it didn't work too well.  I guess next time we see his OT I'll ask if she can come up with a program that's less mom-intensive.

Yes, sigh, totally get it. Usually independent work is something he has enough with someone else that the support can be faded and he can do it more independently. So your OT could teach him a list of 10 tasks and do them all, every session, for several weeks. She can teach him to work from a list and transition from working on a list on a board to on a laminated list on a ring. Then in January maybe he'll have enough practice at that that he can do it at home. Or maybe you bring the tool home and do it with him and fade the support (you show me how to do it and I'll watch you, next week I'll watch you from a distance, and finally you'll do it independently).

So yes, the OT should be setting you up, for success. Not all OTs do. It may be you'll have to set him up for that success yourself, sigh. I've gone through a lot of OTs with my ds and almost all were, well I just keep moving on. The nice thing about the school system is that they make goals and actually are accountable to accomplish them. Like that OT in the ps is going to be implementing an IEP goal (can follow 3 directions, can use calming strategies, etc.) and they're going to expect to see it HAPPENING and they're going to expect her to show up in the class with some tools to get that carryover. That's how it's SUPPOSED to look.

What doesn't work, if the dc needs a lot of structure, is to assume that he'll be able to make happen for himself whatever he was taught at OT. What matters is what you're comfortable and willing to enforce (support, structure, participate in) at home. What the OT is good for is finding out lots of different types of things that help calm your dc's body. Then you have more options. But turning those options into a menu that you can conveniently implement, that is between you and the OT. She should be doing more and in a school she would be doing more. She'd actually make some structures (cards on a ring, a page in his daily notebook that the para supervises, a check-in board for zones and choices he makes depending on what zone he's in, etc.). But it's really up to you what structures are convenient to use.

That was a hard thing for me to grapple with, that these professionals get paid $100 but they accomplish very little and I, who get paid nothing, am supposed to go home and do all the work. Kinda ironic.

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, caedmyn said:

I guess part of the reason I haven't been getting his sensory stuff done is because I don't see a clear difference when we do it.  I hadn't thought of that before.  There have been times when I've seen a difference in him because of sensory work, like the first time he saw an OT he was a different kid for a day afterward.  But overall I don't see a difference  in impulsiveness or focus. 

That's really important stuff to sort through. OT is really in the woo and voodoo category (sorry OTs) where they make assumptions that doing this or that will make a difference. There are things they can do that make a radical difference, yes. Ideally they're teaching him self-monitoring, teaching him about himself, teaching him to work from lists and make choices (improving compliance and ability to follow a plan), etc. 

It's not realistic to expect OT to change impulsivity and focus. Those are the ADHD and if you want those to change you have to get meds. 

If you're doing the OT for say handwriting, then you'd measure change in comfort, function, etc. If you're doing OT for sensory, you'd look at his awareness, self-regulation, and ability to make choices. 

But no, OT is not going to make ADHD better or make it go away. You might talk with the OT about her goals and find out what they are. Practices really vary, and some private OTs will make very concrete goals and some will be just floating along in lala land. I've used all kinds. You at least need to know why you're there and what's realistic and how you'll know if you're getting there. It might be they didn't explain a lot to you because they just wanted you in the door. There's probably going to need to be a process where you begin to learn and carry over at home.

If you want to improve the ADHD symptoms, I would suggest doing mindfulness (body scans, Sitting Like a Frog, whatever), because mindfulness costs you nothing and is an evidence-based practice that will improve his EF (the thing that's low in ADHD) by 30% with just a few minutes of effort. Also look into the Mightier app, because doing that, though it costs, can give some improvement. I'm not sure whether they have data yet, but it's a helpful piece. It's something he can do daily independently once he learns how to operate the app and the heartrate monitor.

With my ds, if he does heavy work, his body is calmer. So it doesn't matter if the sensory input is via the swanky stuff in an OT office or exercises I call out with 5 pound weights. For him, it's the input, especially the weight. My dd's system was more hyper-responsive, so that wasn't what she needed. For my ds, if he gets that input, he's just more zen, calm, easier to work with. And there's carryover to the next day too, and the results are good enough to motivate me to do it. But whether it's 5 pound weights or running on a treadmill or push-ups or swanky equipment stuff or whatever, it really all works. It's just this zen, not erasing ADHD. But it's enough improvement to be noticeable and worth it.

Also going to Disney is good sensory. Tell your dh you must go to Disney for therapy. 

https://aapcpublishing.net/my-sensory-book.html

https://aapcpublishing.net/interoception-the-eighth-sensory-system.html and the assessment forms which were enlightening https://aapcpublishing.net/interoception-assessment-forms.html

That's a Black Friday sale with everything 40% off and another 10% when you register for an account. Amazing deals. 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, caedmyn said:

Doing sensory breaks is a good idea too.

Yes, you can alternate. Totally an EBP (evidence-based practice) and you'll probably notice a difference. Of course my ds will holler about being forced to take BREAKS! For real. Transitions are hard, so he'll actually buck breaks, even preferred breaks. If that happens, then you know you need to work on his ability to transition and take breaks.

6 hours ago, caedmyn said:

I only use the indoor walking track

My ds enjoys the track!! I use very high structure when we go and we only go for very brief periods of time. With my ds, he can run for 1-2 laps and then he needs to stop, not because he's winded but because his arousal level goes high and he becomes erratic and loses control. So I use very high support and very high structure. If I take him, I'm not there for myself, kwim? I'm there to teach him how to work out, and my vision is that if I do it every so often for a few years, eventually he'll be able to do it for himself.

So I'll make up some parameters, like I'll say hey we're going to run 2 laps and take a break, then we'll run 2 more. So he can run as fast as he wants, but once he finishes the 2 laps he has to stop and wait for me because Mom is fat and old and needs a break.  That's not totally true, because I can probably outrun him actually. But I tell him that because he needs a reason to take a break, something that makes sense, and he needs support and structure to stay calm. 

Sometimes we'll grab small hand weights from the weight room and we'll do activities with weights during the break. I'll tell him he can be the Coach this time and decide what the activity is for the break. So he might choose bicep curls or mountain climbers or jumping jacks or whatever. I keep the reps on that super low, so that I know he can do it safely and stay calm. I'm looking for ZEN the whole way.

So you could run one, do a break with weights, run another, and so on. Or run 2, you run slower so he gets calm again, then do an activity and continue. As long as he's zen and focused, you're good. So no, when I'm there with him, I'm there giving him a workout that he can stay calm and do, and I'm not really there for myself. I'm an adult, so I can stay calm longer and push myself. He's going to need breaks and more support. 

You can also do something simple like take two water bottles, one for each hand, and have him run laps with those! Or put on ankle weights while he walks and just walk together for 20 minutes. Anything he likes that you can do together where he is engaging and complying and staying with the group works. Because I know it's HIS workout, not mine, I'm also not irked if I need to be flexible. Like I'll ask whether he wants to hit the track first or the b-ball gym, and if he's looking floaty I'll say hey is this working for you or should we make a different choice now? So he's in control and he's making choices to stay calm and engaged. Not running off. We want him listening to his body and realizing how he's feeling and realizing he can self-advocate and ask for something different if it isn't working. 

At least that's what I do. If I run my ds any of those ways, he's super zen the next day. I can also take him and do weights in the youth/women gym with the smaller equipment. He's needed a lot of instruction on how to SLOW DOWN and do the machines properly. He's not independent on that at all, and he can only stay calm for maybe 5-10. Start low. Start at 3 if you have to, kwim? My ds was a fright when he started, lol. I view it, again, as a long-term thing. Going to the gym calms his body and I want him to feel good about going there and self-advocating. I want to view it as him making choices to do things that make him feel good, and he needs really high support to get there. 

Our Y has some really high structure classes that use lists. My ds isn't ready for that, but maybe in a few years he would be. Classes with imitation (a person in the front) would be really hard, but classes that use lists and let you work at your own pace could work. So I know what I'm working toward, if that makes sense. My ds can't do team sports, best as I can tell, because he can't follow the fast movements and game plan. This kind of independent work out in a group really works for him. 

6 hours ago, caedmyn said:

burpees with him.

You can do burpees at the track! Run 2 laps and then do 5 burpees. So he can't launch into the next set of laps until you've both done your 5 burpees. Do that 6 times, and at our track you'd have run 2/3 of a mile and done 30 burpees, woo-woo! Or if 5 burpees is not easy for him to regulate, then do 3. You can also do a couple things if you're doing less, like take up a weighted ball and jump over it 5 times and then do 2 burpees. Or make some kind of routine (5-4-3-2-1) or a 3-2-1. Anything with hgh structure and low amounts that he can keep calm and focused to do. That's how I work out myself. In the classes they'll do like 100, 90, 80 and so on, but our kids can't keep that calm. I'm recovering from a bad summer, so I do those interval workouts a lot. It's a really good strategy with my ds. I wish I had someone I could use my state funding for to do it with my ds. I think he'd enjoy doing it with another person. It just takes a lot of flexibility, because I have to admit I'm there for him, not myself, and that I'm not gonna get the full workout I would have wanted.

 

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, caedmyn said:

I used to have her help with cooking and meal prep, but it takes her so long and she needs so many reminders to focus that I've largely given up on that

Has anything changed on openness to meds? I didn't do meds with my dd till 16, and I can tell you she wished she had had them at 14. Unmedicated ADHD and driving is a terror statistically, very dangerous. Anyways, I can tell you that my dd was honestly much more functional than anything you're describing. To me this is really significant ADHD that is affecting their ability to do daily life tasks. That's affecting their self-concept and just their impression of themselves as people who can follow a plan and get things done. So if inside they WANT to be productive and get things done, then they have this discrepancy.

If meds are not yet an option, then the answer is higher structure, higher support. Structure and support for a 12 yo would be an apple watch or an old iphone with alarms built in. It would be a list for the day so they know they're on track. It would be micro-lists within the day for specific tasks. So she might have a written out plan for the meal (make this then this then this then wash the dishes) and she has to CHECK OFF each step. Higher structure. Otherwise, yeah it degrades into 1600 pinterest pins. Btdt, lol.

6 hours ago, caedmyn said:

I think I can manage writing if I have him do IEW's student intensive writing program when DD is doing it.  I have to watch the videos with her anyway so he might as well watch them too, and if I scribe for him it shouldn't take very long each day.  My goal is to get at least halfway through it this school year and finish the rest next year.

That sounds like a plan, and yeah that makes sense if you're already doing it for the one to tag the other along. And IEW is great for being high structure. 

 

[Janeway]

Can I vote for neither? Let the 4th grader read a lot and give him some books where it bounces him in to wanting to write his own stories. Save the writing curriculum for later, when you feel more up to it. For the k'er, work on letter formation and have fun with the reading. Watch shows like Leap Frog and play games like Starfall. Do activities like having an A day and try to do everything surrounding A and do art projects. See if his phonics picks up. Read a bunch to the kindergartener too. That is what I would do.