Anyone ever moved between countries? Preferably to Europe?

[bolt.]

My spouse has been in contact with an employer who wants to hire him for a position in Switzerland.

That sounds fantastic!

Also daunting.

Do any of you have experiences like this? I suppose it’s all very orderly and official. People do this all the time, right?

Edited August 24, 2018 by bolt.

[TravelingChris]

Yes, we moved to Belgium but we were military but living on the economy and it was a NATO base, not American. However, we have known plenty of people who have done this as civilians too.  The company hiring helps a lot but you also need to learn a lot about the country.  Many things are different and different depending on each country.  Just don't expect America.  Also, Switzerland is a very expensive country so make sure you check out housing costs, driving costs, etc, before he accepts.  

[bolt.]

Thanks!

What kind of of things can I do to be a little bit “relocation ready” in terms of paperwork and getting my life in order.

I can do language learning too, I guess.

Edited August 24, 2018 by bolt.

[Lanny]

OP among a multitude of issues U.S. Citizens face, when living overseas, is that the USA is one of two countries in the world (the other is some country in Africa, and I don't remember which country)   that taxes its citizens on WORLDWIDE income.    Possibly there is an agreement between the USA and Switzerland, possibly not.

We are subject to the FATCA and other requirements, which means, in plain language, that the bank accounts and credit card accounts that you have in the USA may be cancelled, when you submit a change of address to an overseas address.  Also, it may be difficult to  find a bank in the place you settle in, that is willing to open new accounts for U.S. Citizens.  Not impossible, but difficult.

For many years, I was a dues paying member of American Citizens Abroad and I strongly encourage you to spend the $ now to join and to study the material they have available. They are based in Switzerland, but have members worldwide.  Very helpful.  https://www.americansabroad.org/

It is highly unlikely that any health/medical insurance you have in the USA would cover you overseas, and, if it did, unlikely that a hospital in another country would accept it. You would need to buy from a local company in Switzerland.

Look before you leap and examine all of the pros and all of the cons.

[Liz CA]

10 minutes ago, bolt. said:

Thanks!

What kind of of things can I do to be a little bit “relocation ready” in terms of paperwork and getting my life in order.

I can do language learning too, I guess.

 

well, I did it a long time ago and without children. Was probably a lot easier then.

 

• Get passports for every member of the family
• Make sure you have important medical records translated (if applicable) and know if any meds you take regularly are available there and under what name.
• Decide if any pets will make the move with you and find out what shots are needed and what paperwork you need to "import" an animal - differs from country to country.
• Perhaps weed out what you definitely know will not go with you - good time to declutter unless you have already done so.
• Language: Fairly easy in Switzerland, they speak three languages there, French, German, Italian and most speak English. Be forewarned though that Swiss German sounds very different from High German.
• Explore potential areas for living arrangements, rent house? Buy house? Rent apartment? Company provided housing?
• Enjoy the adventure! And keep us updated.  :)

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Liz CA

[Lanny]

I read this, many years ago, probably before I emigrated from Texas to Colombia.  It said that people who have experienced both a House Fire and an international Move, rate them at about the same Stress level.

[bolt.]

Thank you, and keep the info coming!

Although the vast majority of information for Americans moving overseas would be very nearly the same (and I definitely want to keep hearing it) I’m Canadian.

I’m happy to gather all the brainstorming from you guys — don’t feel like it’s irrelevant! Anything you had to think about, I will probably have to think about too. I’m just needing to transfer your thoughts to my home country, so that will impact how I respond to and apply the advice.

[Mary in VA]

You may be able to exclude your foreign earned income from your federal income tax under certain conditions.  Check here for more info https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/foreign-earned-income-exclusion. Oops, never mind, you're in Canada! Check out the Canadian tax laws on foreign earned income?

Also check out the law for homeschooling if that's what you want to do in Switzerland. 

Edited August 24, 2018 by Mary in VA

[Guest]

I’m just butting in here to experience this vicariously. Though I cannot imagine a situation that would make it possible or likely for me to move to a European country, it is something I fantasize about. I watch House Hunters Intl. all the time just because it fascinates me to think about what that would be like! 

(In reality, I am a big weenie and I would probably die from the stress. But fantasies don’t include such unpleasantries. ?)

[Catwoman]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

I’m just butting in here to experience this vicariously. Though I cannot imagine a situation that would make it possible or likely for me to move to a European country, it is something I fantasize about. I watch House Hunters Intl. all the time just because it fascinates me to think about what that would be like! 

(In reality, I am a big weenie and I would probably die from the stress. But fantasies don’t include such unpleasantries. ?)

 

When I saw this thread, House Hunters International was the first thing I thought of!

Bolt, if you decide to make this move, you should definitely try to get on House Hunters International so we can share the experience with you!

[bolt.]

We’d be renting... and way too stressed to consider being on TV. (We bicker. Meanly. It’s embarsssing even without being on TV.)

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, bolt. said:

We’d be renting... and way too stressed to consider being on TV. (We bicker. Meanly. It’s embarsssing even without being on TV.)

But luckily, HGTV clearly eats that up! I mean, I think they screen for couples who want diametrically opposite houses! Throw in some dark sarcasm and you might even get a signing bonus! ?

[Laura in CA]

We moved to Switzerland & it was one of the best things we've ever done! It was pre-kids (they were born there), so it was easier than it would be for us now ... we just sold all our furniture and took two suitcases of stuff each (we moved into a furnished apartment for the first few years*). It was a fantastic way to learn another language (& yes, Swiss German is its own language). And travel. And hike. And ski.** We were there for 7 years. PM me if you want to chat specifics! I'd love to. 

ETA:
* and like a PP, later moved into an unfurnished apt & made a big trip to IKEA. In fact I'm sitting at our solid-wood IKEA dining room table right now, which made the trip back to the U.S. in a container ?.

** And I also learned the proper way to fold sheets and towels; air out the duvet every morning; stack firewood; etc. Swiss women are amazing. Our neighbor ironed her baby's cloth diapers after washing them ... ?

Edited August 25, 2018 by Laura in CA

[bolt.]

58 minutes ago, Quill said:

But luckily, HGTV clearly eats that up! I mean, I think they screen for couples who want diametrically opposite houses! Throw in some dark sarcasm and you might even get a signing bonus! ?

Funny you should mention it. Sarcasm is my “love language” — the darker the better.

[Liz CA]

Does your dh have to fly there for the interview or will it be via Skype or in Canada? If he has to go (probably a sign that he is a top contender for the job), you could possibly go along and preview the area a little.

[bolt.]

The overatures happened at a conference, so it’s unclear to me what the next step is. An interview-vacation trio would be awesome, even if nothing else comes of it.

Edited August 25, 2018 by bolt.

[madteaparty]

A former colleague of mine just moved her family to Switzerland for her job. There’s specific things that need negotiated, like school fees and something else I forget now specifically having to do with expat status. Switzerland is very expensive, FYI.

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

We’d be renting... and way too stressed to consider being on TV. (We bicker. Meanly. It’s embarsssing even without being on TV.)

 

They feature lots of renters on House Hunters International... and the more bickering the better! 

Not that I’m trying to sway you or anything because that would be wrong...

 

[wintermom]

I'm Canadian and lived and worked in Norway for 4 years. This was when I was single, and it was over 20 years ago. It was an amazing experience, and well worth doing. All the best as you explore this opportunity!

The biggest hurdle for me working in Europe was having a secured job in order to get a work visa. There are regulations in Switzerland regarding this which include:

• Authorisation is only granted if established quotas have not been used up.
• Third-country nationals may only be hired if no one with equivalent qualifications can be found in Switzerland or in an EU/EFTA member state

The potential employer should be able to help your husband navigate through this. Then you'll have to ensure you apply for the relevant residency visa/permission. 

The next biggest hurdle about living and working in another country is language. Your dh will have the biggest responsibility of working in that language and communicating effectively with his colleagues. You will both have to navigate through official documents in a foreign language and system for taxes, health insurance, auto insurance, rental/housing documents, etc. 

You'll also need to look into how you leave things behind in Canada, such as bank accounts, Canadian pension, registered retirement/registered savings plan (e.g., can you still contribute based on income earned outside of Canada), property owned, etc.

Here are a couple of website specific to living and working in Switzerland:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/arbeit/nicht-eu_efta-angehoerige.html

https://www.ch.ch/en/working-foreign-national-requirements/

Edited August 25, 2018 by wintermom

[ElizabethB]

We lived in Germany for 4 years, military but lived off base and enjoyed living in another country and learning about the culture.

I knew some German and actually found the German the Swiss spoke clearer and more understandable than the German in Germany, especially the older folks with regional accents in Germany.  The older people in Switzerland seemed to speak more similar to what was spoken in my German classes.

That being said, there are certain regions of Switzerland where mainly French is spoken.  Most people there do speak some English, although less in the French areas.  We never visited the Italian speaking areas of Switzerland, but my Spanish is much better than my German and Spanish is close enough to Italian that I got by fine in Italy.  

I would get a passport now and figure out what area of Switzerland and what language is spoken there and start learning some just in case.

When we drove through a certain tunnel through a mountain on one trip to Switzerland, it was huge (and the only way through) and they accepted credit cards at the toll booth--we knew it was going to be expensive, and it was!  But, they spent a lot of money making it, we could tell.  One of the places we went, there was a field of cows with bells on their necks, it was right out of Heidi!!  Switzerland is very beautiful.  

[mumto2]

8 hours ago, bolt. said:

We’d be renting... 

We moved to England 11 years ago so we spoke the language, sort of. ?  We moved on our own so no corporate moving specialist and no desire to pay for shipping a container.  One of my closest friends was moving to an Asian country at the same time with the help of a corporation.  She moved way too much stuff because she could and was overwhelmed by it when it all arrived.  Her new home was much smaller and some what she brought did not fit.  Her already old couch had to sit almost in the middle of the room because it was too long for the walls.  She apparently could have negotiated a furniture allowance but chose the larger container instead. We rented a furnished flat and moved with 8 bags initially.  We went home for Christmas and picked up 8 more bags of stuff.  Eventually we moved to an unfurnished flat and IKEA did our decorating.  Neither way was perfect.

What I would do right now......

1.  Passports for the whole family.  Friends whole family actually visited first I think, so you want to be ready just in case.

2.  I would start studying both German and French on Duolingo at a minimum.  So you can at least read things, sort of. ?   

3.  De clutter so moving will be easier.  

4.  Start thinking about things that your family is totally brand sensitive to.  You will need to verify these brands can be purchased in your new country.  My friend had to have contact solution mailed to her at great expense.  When my BF came to visit she had to bring me tampons and packages of the underwear my son liked because he grew out of his old unexpectedly.  Yes, all of those things can be bought on the economy but when your family is already under the stress of an incredibly major move being physically uncomfortable is too much.  I have allergies to many hair products and did remember to bring my own from home,  after we got settled I worked on finding British brands that I could tolerate.  The humorous thing is I now take my new brand with me when I return to the US in large quantity, my son didn’t know that I needed my shampoo rationed one trip and was using mine so I ran out a week before departure.

[ondreeuh]

12 hours ago, bolt. said:

My spouse has been in contact with an employer who wants to hire him for a position in Switzerland.

That sounds fantastic!

Also daunting.

Do any of you have experiences like this? I suppose it’s all very orderly and official. People do this all the time, right?

 

We moved to Belgium a year ago. My husband is a civilian working for NATO, but some of his coworkers are military personnel who are stationed here and some are contractors. It makes a difference how you get here. My friend whose husband is a contractor has very limited access to both Belgian and NATO resources. Although her husband physically works at the NATO base she can't use the post offices, library, school programs, etc. She has to get a visitor's pass via a sponsor. I don't think she can use th Belgian healthcare system (she said she has to pay 100% out of pocket) or their other social programs. She isn't protected under what we call SOFA (Status of Forces Agreement) and thus has to obey Belgian laws when it comes to homeschooling, housing contracts, registering with her local community ... basically she is treated as an immigrant, even though they have no intention of staying here long-term. She must complete a whole integration program which includes interviews and classes that are taught in French. The biggest problem has been that her husband's employer didn't figure the taxes correctly so they have had to pay thousands and thousands more in local income tax than they were promised, yet she isn't allowed to work here. For her, it has been a big pain in the butt.

For us (civilians), we have most of the opportunities that the military have, including protection under SOFA! We get a US post office box, can use the base library and school programs, get special clauses in our housing contracts, don't have to pay Belgian income tax; we even got to get our driver's licenses through the base after taking a class in English ...

If you intend on staying Canadian, I would definitely see whether you will be protected under Canada's SOFA agreement with Switzerland (hopefully they have one). A bonus is if this company can get you access to a Canadian post office box and library. Basically you want to know how they intend to make the move easier on you. Will their relocation package cover the actual cost of moving? Will they provide help with negotiating housing contracts? I think Belgium's standard contract is like 9 years and if you move out early you have big fines - but our contract lets us move after 1-year, and at any time under special circumstances. That can make a big difference. @Monica_in_Switzerland can tell you more about homeschooling in Switzerland. Belgium is a multi-lingual country and I know that makes it challenging to choose how to register.

I love it here, even though I am very slow at learning French. We travel quite a lot (RyanAir!) and it's cool to live in a place where family-owned businesses far outnumber the chain stores, doctors work out of their homes and make house calls, cheap water parks have slides that would never be allowed in North America, people seems a bit more socially conscious, trains go everywhere, Christmas markets exist, villages have crazy festivals, etc. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

See my user name for my credentials.  ?  

I can't help much with the moving aspect... My husband is Swiss, so totally different process for me.  I remember the US Embassy in Zurich had a list of banks they recommended, as it's true that Americans do get hassled quite a bit about our accounts.  For the Swiss banks, you'll need to prove yearly that you are submitting your FBARs and filing your US taxes.  

Do you know roughly where you would be in Switzerland?  The homeschooling laws are vastly different from canton to canton, with it being illegal in some cantons.  There are occasionally work-arounds for ex-pats, or living in one canton and working in another.  The cantons are small, so this is a lot more do-able than crossing US state lines, for example.  

Everyone (practically) speaks some English, but of course the main thing to do right now would be language lessons.  I would not attempt to learn both major languages, just the one for the area that the company is located.  I travel regularly to Zurich and am embarrassed to say I know about 5 words in German.  Never been a problem.  But I'm very happily fluent in French, and we live on the French side.  My observation is that if I go over to the German side and ask "Could you speak English of French with me, please?", they always, always, always prefer English.  ?  The quirky multiple-language thing is part of the weird charm of Switzerland and I'd say as a general rule the Swiss are way less annoyed at having to speak in another language to a visitor than, say, the French.  

I'm happy to answer any and all questions, you can also PM me if you'd like.  

 

[Lanny]

OP    I read your follow on reply where you said that you are Canadian. That makes the tax and banking situation much much easier.   For Overseas Americans, it is a challenge regarding bank accounts and taxes.

[bolt.]

Thank you, this is all such excellent brainstorming help!

[Lanny]

There are things you should understand about this.   First, it will probably be a big "plus" for your husbands resume.

Secondly, there is a "culture shock" when you move from your home country, in your case Canada, to another country.

Third, there is apparently much more of a culture shock, if you eventually need to return to your home country.  You may not want to do that. That's apparently quite normal. Living overseas changes people. That's normal. 

 

[Laura in CA]

19 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

I knew some German and actually found the German the Swiss spoke clearer and more understandable than the German in Germany, especially the older folks with regional accents in Germany.  The older people in Switzerland seemed to speak more similar to what was spoken in my German classes.

 

My hunch is that the Swiss people you talked with were either not native Swiss-German speakers (e.g., perhaps they were native-French-speaking Swiss living on the German side of the Röstigraben ?), or they were native Swiss-German speakers who were just really good at interacting with non-Swiss using what they call "Schriftdeutsch," which they learn in school (since Swiss German is only a spoken language(s)). (One of many ways to write "Swiss German" in Swiss German (phonetically) is Schwyzertütsch.) Germans (from Germany) require subtitles if watching a video or movie in which people are speaking Swiss German (!). It really is a different language.

 

ETA: I had studied German in college and lived in both Austria and Germany (speaking only German); I found Swiss German impenetrable at first. I thought it would be just a matter of learning a few quirks, like with the Austrian dialects; no ... Swiss German friends taught me (or tried to teach me!) the conjugations of common verbs. Totally different and rather wacky ... but fun ??

Edited August 26, 2018 by Laura in CA

[Liz CA]

4 hours ago, Laura in CA said:

 

My hunch is that the Swiss people you talked with were either not native Swiss-German speakers (e.g., perhaps they were native-French-speaking Swiss living on the German side of the Röstigraben ?), or they were native Swiss-German speakers who were just really good at interacting with non-Swiss using what they call "Schriftdeutsch," which they learn in school (since Swiss German is only a spoken language(s)). (One of many ways to write "Swiss German" in Swiss German (phonetically) is Schwyzertütsch.) Germans (from Germany) require subtitles if watching a video or movie in which people are speaking Swiss German (!). It really is a different language.

 

ETA: I had studied German in college and lived in both Austria and Germany (speaking only German); I found Swiss German impenetrable at first. I thought it would be just a matter of learning a few quirks, like with the Austrian dialects; no ... Swiss German friends taught me (or tried to teach me!) the conjugations of common verbs. Totally different and rather wacky ... but fun ??

 

Years ago, I worked with some Swiss colleagues and even though I am still fairly fluent in German, I had to learn their peculiar pronunciations. I will never forget the word Küchenkästchen (kitchen cabinet)...you would simply not recognize it in Swiss German. Fun times a long time ago. But most Swiss can quickly shift to Schriftdeutsch which is more common and what most people learn in school. And a lot of people speak English and French. Being Canadian, you may have an easy time with French as well.

[Mbelle]

I met my dh when he lived in CH.  I lived in south Germany and we had a mutual friend.  It's been 21 ago now! Before we met we had both traveled around.  He ended up with a job in London and I ended up at a DOD school in Germany.  

He was transferred to an area near Neuchatel, CH.  He was/is Australian and his company handled all his transfer work.  He did have to check in with the local authorities etc...  He was single so things are always easier when single.  We had a great time there.  Yes, everything is very orderly. He was young and likely did not pay enough attention to some rules and ended up with a few fines.  Nothing serious, but stuff like putting his trash out too early or parking in the wrong area overnight.  Just cultural things to adjust to. I found it more traditional than other areas of Europe.  We had a great time there and it's very beautiful and it would be fun to be there again for awhile.  We do still have friends we keep in touch with.  

[umsami]

I lived in St. Gallen as an exchange student.  (German speaking part.)  I loved living in Switzerland.  I'd take a job there in a heartbeat.

 

ON a side note, he may be eligible for swiss retirement.  I think you have to live/work 10 years.

Edited August 26, 2018 by umsami

[bolt.]

No news yet, but we really feel like we could go if the job is really offered.

I’m alternating between dread and excitement, while planning a double life ‘if we go’ and ‘if nothing changes’. I hope the stress doesn’t kill me, but I’m fine for now. 

We have our home here fully paid off, so we plan on getting house sitters. We have people in mind. That means there would be no selling it, or finding renters, and not such an emphasis on stuff-storage while we are away. We can keep our things in the home, just clear things out of the spaces that the house sitters would primarily be using.

[Penguin]

We made a corporate move to Denmark, and stayed five years. At the time, our kids were 10, 17, and 19. No regrets. It changed us for the better. The then-17 year old (now in his 20s) loved living in Europe so much that he stayed for college. And now he is there for grad school with the intent of working there after he finishes his studies. And only because of the move did I become a homeschool mom. So you never know what might happen!

The paperwork to get in was a beast. The paperwork to leave was just as bad. As in traumatizing.

Eldest son acted as house sitter at times - we also had renters at one point. Either way, plan for what to do when a pipe leaks or an appliance malfunctions. We had to pay repair people for things that DH normally would have fixed himself. $$$

Try to have a Plan B for education. While our middle had a fantastic high school experience, the younger one had a horrible first year of school. We were not in the capital city so options were limited. Our Plan B turned out to be homeschooling. No way would I have sent him to that school for a second year.

Denmark is also very expensive. Woah, that took some getting used to and we underestimated the impact.

It was worth all the hassles and expenses. We visited 15 countries while we were there. 

 

[bolt.]

Thanks, this information is very helpful, especially because it ‘normalizes’ the idea. People actually do this!

We’ve still heard nothing. At this point I’m a bit miffed that maybe the semi-serious job offer was just somebody getting ahead of themself at that company. I can’t see why you ‘basically’ offer a job, then don’t get back to your candidate? Not even to say, ‘We’re working on it.’ — or whatever.

It was possibly nothing all along?

[Chris in VA]

PMing you. ?

 

[bolt.]

Contact has been made, but it’s much lower key. He hasn’t been “offered” the job, but his contact is enthusiastic that they definitely will make the offer. 

The first step is for him to apply to the official job posting, update his CV, etc.

He will have to negotiate for his pay level. The pay level that was implied to him might not have been realistic, or it might be realistic and he just has to ask for it.

He’s pretty stressed. I’m okay.

He’s updating his resume in French, which implies, I guess, that we’d be going to the French-speaking area? I could ask him... but I don’t want to be a stressor for him. (It cranks his stress if he doesn’t know the answers to my questions because it gets close to his ‘letting others down’ trigger and his ‘great unknown’ trigger at the same time.)