S/O Obesity/ Weight Loss

[Pen]

I am reporting my fast-feast result.

I would have to do it a number of times to feel more confident, but it does seem that after hitting a plateau where my metabolism had adjusted to reduced calories and I was not losing weight or waistline length, the feast-fast got my metabolism to reset. 

A one day fast feast cycle was apparently enough to have moved back to a steady ~1kg / week loss on average while back to the same average calories and food. 

 

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

So what is the answer for someone who is obese yet not enough for bariatric surgery?  I struggle every day to manage my weight. I exercise. I eat healthy. I am educated on nutrition and weight loss. But I have to work hard every day just to keep my BMI at 30 (obese). 

I exercise (both cardio and weights). I walk sometimes up to eight miles a day according to my Fitbit. I stay busy with chores inside and outside the house and rarely even sit until evening. I seriously stand and sometimes pace while reading to my dd. I do not lead the lifestyle people associate with obesity. So it hurts to have people assume I am lazy.

Yet here I am. BMI around 30 and I work to keep it there. Not high enough for surgery yet I obviously have an issue. 

I actually think I have amazing will power to keep at it even though I still am obese. I tell myself a loss of a half a pound to a pound a month will add up eventually. But gosh I work awful hard for very little progress. I am actually working hard just to maintain my current level of obesity ?

My father is obese. My mother was morbidly obese all through my childhood until her death. This has been a struggle since childhood. It stinks!

Well maybe you need to adjust expectations? I know that is hard. But honestly, when my BMI was down to 29 which is it much different from 30, that was when I considered my surgery a success. That was the after, LOL. That said, have you discussed medication it with your doctor? There are some medications that are helpful for losing some weight if you are not yet morbidly obese’s.

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

g

 

5 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

My weight crept up if I deviated, or if I couldn't get fresh veggies.  I had a neighbor who went from obese to normal and kept it off a decade so far. She taught me  to look at assumptions..are you really eating healthy?  

 

I think this is huge!  

I 

[Pen]

55 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

So what is the answer for someone who is obese yet not enough for bariatric surgery?  I struggle every day to manage my weight. I exercise. I eat healthy. I am educated on nutrition and weight loss. But I have to work hard every day just to keep my BMI at 30 (obese). 

I exercise (both cardio and weights). I walk sometimes up to eight miles a day according to my Fitbit. I stay busy with chores inside and outside the house and rarely even sit until evening. I seriously stand and sometimes pace while reading to my dd. I do not lead the lifestyle people associate with obesity. So it hurts to have people assume I am lazy.

Yet here I am. BMI around 30 and I work to keep it there. Not high enough for surgery yet I obviously have an issue. 

I actually think I have amazing will power to keep at it even though I still am obese. I tell myself a loss of a half a pound to a pound a month will add up eventually. But gosh I work awful hard for very little progress. I am actually working hard just to maintain my current level of obesity ?

My father is obese. My mother was morbidly obese all through my childhood until her death. This has been a struggle since childhood. It stinks!

 

I had had the earlier in life experience of metabolism that let me eat pretty much anything and not gain weight. 

Now that I’ve experienced the reverse where it is hard for me to lose or even stay the same I have a lot of sympathy for your situation. It does stink!

 

Have you tried getting into a ketogenic fat burning state?

[teachermom2834]

41 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Well maybe you need to adjust expectations? I know that is hard. But honestly, when my BMI was down to 29 which is it much different from 30, that was when I considered my surgery a success. That was the after, LOL. That said, have you discussed medication it with your doctor? There are some medications that are helpful for losing some weight if you are not yet morbidly obese’s.

Yes. I have adjusted expectations. I had a moment of revelation when my second ds turned 18 and I realized I have young adult children...it is okay if I don't look like a teenager myself. I have made it a point to buy clothes I like and fit well and take good care of my skin and I do get my hair done, etc.

I did, about a year ago see a new doctor and she suggested medication. I had decided to relax and not worry so much and I put on twenty pounds and got to my highest weight very quickly. I did take medication for three months and dropped that twenty pounds and I've kept that off about a year. I didn't want to be on the medication long term so I went off it and worked on maintaining the loss. I have but it has been hard. I have thought lately about trying that again but I honestly find the same appetite control from intermittent fasting. I know I can't be on the medication forever so I prefer the idea of managing it on my own. I am healthy. My labs always come back great. I walk with some very fit and thin people and I have zero trouble keeping up with them. 

I am losing about a pound a month. I am trying to think long term. I have a 10 yo dd so I am motivated to eat right and be active to set a healthy example. But, having a 10 yo dd I am also careful not to overdo it. I don't want to set her on a lifetime of extreme dieting or overexercising. Sigh.

[teachermom2834]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I had had the earlier in life experience of metabolism that let me eat pretty much anything and not gain weight. 

Now that I’ve experienced the reverse where it is hard for me to lose or even stay the same I have a lot of sympathy for your situation. It does stink!

 

Have you tried getting into a ketogenic fat burning state?

I have done keto in the past (i'm pretty sure I've done everything). I totally believe keto works. I am sure I would lose weight if I was faithful to that way of life.

I have a problem with eating that way for the rest of my life. I did it when I was younger but I now have a 10 yo dd who while very healthy, fit, and active, will likely share my body type. As soon as she was old enough to notice my eating and exercise habits I felt I had to be more moderate in my approach to everything. I currently limit the time of day I eat to an eight hour window and usually it is more like six. That naturally curbs my appetite and limits my calories. Yet, I am able to better eat with my family. I used to never eat what my family did, for dieting purposes, but I just didn't want to pass that on to my dd. 

But I weigh and measure and track every bite that goes in my mouth. I eat pretty much the same things every day out of the same bowls, etc. and yet I measure to make sure I am not having too big a portion. I track in myfitnesspal and I usually have 1100-1300 calories and I don't even record my exercise or give myself extra calories for it. And then at the end of the day I hit the button for completing tracking for the day. It says "If you ate this way everyday you would weigh ___ in five weeks." It is hilarious. It will calculate I should lose 11 pounds in 5 weeks. I lose about one. 

But I'm not giving up. 

[teachermom2834]

7 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

What I've noticed is that the calories assigned to activity vary greatly from source to source...I upped my activity level so there was at least half an hour of sweat, 3x-5x/week and that moved my needle.   Eventually I came to the point of using heart rate and time...no matter what the activity, following the advice from Phil Maffetone (The Big Book of Health and Fitness).  That actually worked, as does achieving certain settings on my treadmill.  Essentially being active around the house does nothing for me other than lymph circulation...must do more intense things to maintain or build muscle or lose weight. 

I understand. I exercise 30-40 minutes 5 days per week. I do fitness blender videos that combine cardio and weights. I sweat a ton. Surely I could do more. 

 

[teachermom2834]

3 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Yes, and if you get to an hour a day, five days a week including warm up/cool down you'll probably see more change. What are you seeing now in body changes, beyond the qtr pound a week in weight loss?

HeighHo- 

I realize this will sound confrontational and I promise it is not my intent. I really did not post to get all my diet and exercise picked apart. I realize you are trying to help, honestly. And I do appreciate that. 

But my post was meant, even if I did not express it well, in the context of the metabolic aspect of weight loss and obesity. My story is another example of someone who is just messed up somehow. Yes, I could eat less. Yes, I could exercise more. But, the fact remains that someone consuming 1200 calories a day and working out for 35 minutes 5x a week and walking 5-8 miles a day in addition to the exercise probably shouldn't be obese. Something else is at play. 

I do truly understand you are trying to help and it is nice for you to take the time to reply but I don't really want to pick apart my diet and exercise routine any more than I have.  I shouldn't have posted at all I guess. I would delete but I've already been quoted so I'll leave it. Not the first time I've had posting remorse. I'm sure not the last.

Thanks.

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I have done keto in the past (i'm pretty sure I've done everything). I totally believe keto works. I am sure I would lose weight if I was faithful to that way of life.

I have a problem with eating that way for the rest of my life. I did it when I was younger but I now have a 10 yo dd who while very healthy, fit, and active, will likely share my body type. As soon as she was old enough to notice my eating and exercise habits I felt I had to be more moderate in my approach to everything.

 

But alternatively you you could try to model what might work better for you now. ... and which also might work for her when she gets older.   ???

 

 

12 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I currently limit the time of day I eat to an eight hour window and usually it is more like six. That naturally curbs my appetite and limits my calories. Yet, I am able to better eat with my family. I used to never eat what my family did, for dieting purposes, but I just didn't want to pass that on to my dd. 

 

 

I agree that the reduced eating windows can help. I am trying to model healthy eating more than dieting, and am finding the keto system fairly suited to family eating. See more below. 

12 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

But I weigh and measure and track every bite that goes in my mouth. I eat pretty much the same things every day out of the same bowls, etc. and yet I measure to make sure I am not having too big a portion. I track in myfitnesspal and I usually have 1100-1300 calories and I don't even record my exercise or give myself extra calories for it. And then at the end of the day I hit the button for completing tracking for the day. It says "If you ate this way everyday you would weigh ___ in five weeks." It is hilarious. It will calculate I should lose 11 pounds in 5 weeks. I lose about one. 

But I'm not giving up. 

 

I am only able to eat around 800 calories per day if I want to lose weight. And even then I had my metabolism adjust so that I was holding steady on that till I did a feast fast reset. 

My son has a lean, high metabolism body now, but could change when he is older. His bio father has type 2 diabetes so a diet that would tend to help prevent diabetes would be good for his life. 

He is currently eating what I eat, but a lot more of it, plus he is eating additional foods that I do not eat. For example, I might be eating a huge salad with a little grated cheese and crumbled meat. He might eat the same salad, plus tacos with the meat and vegetables and salsa and a lot more cheese. And also a big helping of guacamole. And also a dessert, which might be a keto one I can eat too, or not.  Joint deserts might be whip cream chocolate mousse  with no sugar  

He is old enough to make additional food he wants himself, but had done a lot of cooking also when he was your daughter’s age. If he wants muffins or brownies, he makes them and is supposed to put them away where they don’t tempt me to have a tiny nibble.  There is also ice cream on a shelf of the freezer lower than my eye level  

Or there might be a keto casserole meal where we eat together, but I take smaller portions and no bread or other carb on the side. 

To me keto seems to work really well to have basically the same meal. It is easier than usual right now because the main big meal of the day is being eaten in the early afternoon. During the school year schedules won’t allow that. 

I have some things that I am eating most days to simplify my life. But also am experimenting with a new recipe every few days both to keep things interesting and also to improve nutrition by including more foods in what we eat. I think without a big variety some nutrients will be very short changed. 

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, Pen said:

I track in myfitnesspal and I usually have 1100-1300 calories and I don't even record my exercise or give myself extra calories for it. And then at the end of the day I hit the button for completing tracking for the day. It says "If you ate this way everyday you would weigh ___ in five weeks." It is hilarious. It will calculate I should lose 11 pounds in 5 weeks. I lose about one.

 

I am using Cronometer, but similarly, it indicates that I could eat more calories and lose the weight I want to lose, than is true in reality. 

It seems clear that “a calorie is a calorie “ works for physics, but not for biology of actual metabolism. 

Even our cats seem like they display this as we have a too skinny cat who doesn’t seem able to gain weight and a too fat cat who cannot seem to lose.  And used to have a just right cat who seemed to stay that way. 

All of us also seem to be displaying the biological tendency toward homeostasis. 

[Scarlett]

33 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

HeighHo- 

I realize this will sound confrontational and I promise it is not my intent. I really did not post to get all my diet and exercise picked apart. I realize you are trying to help, honestly. And I do appreciate that. 

But my post was meant, even if I did not express it well, in the context of the metabolic aspect of weight loss and obesity. My story is another example of someone who is just messed up somehow. Yes, I could eat less. Yes, I could exercise more. But, the fact remains that someone consuming 1200 calories a day and working out for 35 minutes 5x a week and walking 5-8 miles a day in addition to the exercise probably shouldn't be obese. Something else is at play. 

I do truly understand you are trying to help and it is nice for you to take the time to reply but I don't really want to pick apart my diet and exercise routine any more than I have.  I shouldn't have posted at all I guess. I would delete but I've already been quoted so I'll leave it. Not the first time I've had posting remorse. I'm sure not the last.

Thanks.

I did understand your post. And I agree.  What does your doctor say?  Or does he simple not believe you?  

Do you mind I ask how old you are?  

 

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

So what is the answer for someone who is obese yet not enough for bariatric surgery?  I struggle every day to manage my weight. I exercise. I eat healthy. I am educated on nutrition and weight loss. But I have to work hard every day just to keep my BMI at 30 (obese). 

I exercise (both cardio and weights). I walk sometimes up to eight miles a day according to my Fitbit. I stay busy with chores inside and outside the house and rarely even sit until evening. I seriously stand and sometimes pace while reading to my dd. I do not lead the lifestyle people associate with obesity. So it hurts to have people assume I am lazy.

Yet here I am. BMI around 30 and I work to keep it there. Not high enough for surgery yet I obviously have an issue. 

I actually think I have amazing will power to keep at it even though I still am obese. I tell myself a loss of a half a pound to a pound a month will add up eventually. But gosh I work awful hard for very little progress. I am actually working hard just to maintain my current level of obesity ?

My father is obese. My mother was morbidly obese all through my childhood until her death. This has been a struggle since childhood. It stinks!

I would like to know as well.  I think my dss's BMI is 41 now.  I want to take him back to the doctor and say 'what do you think he should try next?'  

[ktgrok]

Not saying your son needs or should have surgery at this point in his life, but I will say that 41 it would qualify him. A BMI of 40 or over is morbidly obese and does qualify one for surgery. Hugs, this is hard.

[teachermom2834]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I did understand your post. And I agree.  What does your doctor say?  Or does he simple not believe you?  

Do you mind I ask how old you are?  

 

I am almost 44. I have struggled my whole life. But I used to struggle and stay 20-25 lbs lighter than I do now. So I have been counting calories for almost 30 years. I have been very thin a few times. So it’s been a roller coaster.

My doc is supportive though she doesn’t necessarily fully believe me. Which most people don’t! She also believes in the six small meals a day and eating every couple hours which is a disaster for me so she doesn’t really understand. She is not terribly worried because I am so healthy and my labs are always perfect. She would prescribe medication if I asked for it.

I’m going to keep exercising and eating right and focusing on health. But- it is just so sad that people look at me and think “lazy” and “no self control”. Because it takes a lot of self control to do the right things without results. And I am so not lazy at all. I exercise and do chores and hardly sit down before 9pm unless I have to drive somewhere. Anytime I work any kind of event I can work circles around all the skinny people and never even need to take a break or sit down. I am strong. And fat.

But I will do this just to maintain. My mom was probably 400 lbs through my childhood and more in my adulthood. If I just gave up I would be there. 

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I am almost 44. I have struggled my whole life. But I used to struggle and stay 20-25 lbs lighter than I do now. So I have been counting calories for almost 30 years. I have been very thin a few times. So it’s been a roller coaster.

My doc is supportive though she doesn’t necessarily fully believe me. Which most people don’t! She also believes in the six small meals a day and eating every couple hours which is a disaster for me so she doesn’t really understand. She is not terribly worried because I am so healthy and my labs are always perfect. She would prescribe medication if I asked for it.

I’m going to keep exercising and eating right and focusing on health. But- it is just so sad that people look at me and think “lazy” and “no self control”. Because it takes a lot of self control to do the right things without results. And I am so not lazy at all. I exercise and do chores and hardly sit down before 9pm unless I have to drive somewhere. Anytime I work any kind of event I can work circles around all the skinny people and never even need to take a break or sit down. I am strong. And fat.

But I will do this just to maintain. My mom was probably 400 lbs through my childhood and more in my adulthood. If I just gave up I would be there. 

Does your doctor suggest weight loss surgery?

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Does your doctor suggest weight loss surgery?

With a BMI of 30 and no health problems otherwise she wouldn't qualify. You need a BMI of 40 or higher, or a BMI of 35 or higher with two weight related health issues (sleep apnea, diabetes, etc). 

I will say they are starting to use some of the medications long term, realizing that obesity is a chronic disease, so may require chronic medication in some people, versus the "use it until you lose the weight" mentality of before. I can find a video on it if anyone is interested. 

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Does your doctor suggest weight loss surgery?

No. The people more familiar with surgery would know the details but I think I would need to be about 50 lbs heavier to be at that range. And I am having no health problems related to the weight at this time. 

I am 37 pounds from the top of the “normal” range BMI and less than ten from moving into the “overweight” range from obese. So that is my goal now. 

 

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Not saying your son needs or should have surgery at this point in his life, but I will say that 41 it would qualify him. A BMI of 40 or over is morbidly obese and does qualify one for surgery. Hugs, this is hard.

Dh and I spent the afternoon together in the pool yesterday and I was telling him a lot of the things that I have learned on this thread.  He is adamantly against surgery for ds at this point.  

[ktgrok]

14 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Dh and I spent the afternoon together in the pool yesterday and I was telling him a lot of the things that I have learned on this thread.  He is adamantly against surgery for ds at this point.  

Honestly, at his age, I'm not surprised. But once he is an adult and on his own, he should be aware of the option. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

Honestly, at his age, I'm not surprised. But once he is an adult and on his own, he should be aware of the option. 

 

Sorry I got distracted and hit post before I was really finished with my thought.  I guess I am just wondering if NOW is the time to work HARD to reset his metabolism instead of waiting 10 years and then having surgery.  It seems to me it only gets MORE difficult to lose without surgery the more you gain and the older you get.

Dss can cut his calories and lose weight.  I have seen him do it.  Is it difficult?  Probably.  But it is NOT impossible like it seems to be for many of you who are older.  This is what dh and I keep going round and round about......

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

Sorry I got distracted and hit post before I was really finished with my thought.  I guess I am just wondering if NOW is the time to work HARD to reset his metabolism instead of waiting 10 years and then having surgery.  It seems to me it only gets MORE difficult to lose without surgery the more you gain and the older you get.

Dss can cut his calories and lose weight.  I have seen him do it.  Is it difficult?  Probably.  But it is NOT impossible like it seems to be for many of you who are older.  This is what dh and I keep going round and round about......

Each time he does it, it hits his metabolism, making it harder the next time. Also, you've seen him do it, but then stop...maybe the question is to find out why he stopped. Was it because he got hungry - which can happen due to changes in gut hormones, was it that he didn't like the food, was it that it made socializing difficult, etc etc. Again, this is where a specialist would come in handy. Also, there are some medications, that although they do not have anywhere near the weight loss effect as surgery, may help get a person to lose about 12% of their body weight, give or take. Other thoughts are fasting, etc. Fasting seems to not have the slow down of metabolism effect that just cutting calories has, so may be a better strategy, if he is open to it. 

[Pen]

 

10 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

Sorry I got distracted and hit post before I was really finished with my thought.  I guess I am just wondering if NOW is the time to work HARD to reset his metabolism instead of waiting 10 years and then having surgery.  It seems to me it only gets MORE difficult to lose without surgery the more you gain and the older you get.

Dss can cut his calories and lose weight.  I have seen him do it.  Is it difficult?  Probably.  But it is NOT impossible like it seems to be for many of you who are older.  This is what dh and I keep going round and round about......

 

I suspect the difficulty with increased age may be much more pronounced for women than men because of the very considerable hormone changes. 

 

But, YES, absolutely, now would be a good time to work HARD on getting his metabolism reset. 

 

Also surgery has its own risks. If he can do it NOW without surgery it would be much better. 

[regentrude]

Maybe slightly OT, but does one know how Angus Barbieri was able to refrain from eating for a year to lose 270 lbs? Did he simply have tremendous willpower? From what I've read, he just decided to do it, and that was it.

[Pen]

Disclaimer—I have not myself read the following book and I knew it’s author years ago.

I can vouch that he had a terrible problem with weight since boyhood. Possibly as a book by a man and with some humor, it would appeal to your son. Having not read it I don’t know anything about its content information, but would guess that John was finding similar things to what we have been talking about in this thread. 

 

John J Ordover

Lie There and Lose Weight: How I Lost 100 Pounds By Doing Next to Nothing

 

 

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Maybe slightly OT, but does one know how Angus Barbieri was able to refrain from eating for a year to lose 270 lbs? Did he simply have tremendous willpower? From what I've read, he just decided to do it, and that was it.

actually, not eating is easier than eating small amounts/low calorie. The metabolic changes from fasting shut down your appetite after a while. 

[Pawz4me]

32 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Maybe slightly OT, but does one know how Angus Barbieri was able to refrain from eating for a year to lose 270 lbs? Did he simply have tremendous willpower? From what I've read, he just decided to do it, and that was it.

I have no idea who Angus Barbieri is, but as to tremendous willpower — Speaking only for myself, yes, that was a huge factor in my weight loss. I really prefer to call it stubbornness. For me I felt like that was exactly what it was. I made up my mind to do it and by golly I was going to. I’m very good about being stubborn when I decide I want or need to be. But for me weight loss did require a truly tremendous amount of whatever you want to call it. In hindsight what I did was definitely not healthy, and as I’ve posted before I went too far and got myself into eating disorder/anorexia territory. I ate less than 1000 calories a day for months while exercising strenuously (mostly bike riding 100+ miles a week). There were many (MANY) nights that I was so hungry I couldn’t sleep. And just as many mornings where I was up at 4:00 a.m.or earlier cleaning—whether needed or not (and almost always it was not really needed)—to try to keep my mind off hunger. I’m not posting this to say “see, I did it and so can you,” but rather to show how very hard it can be. If I hadn’t done it at that exact time of my life, when I had no one but myself to focus on, I doubt I would have succeeded  I had to put every bit of my focus on it. Knowing the tremendous commitment/willpower/stubbornness required is why I posted earlier that I don’t fault anyone who chooses not to do it  

 

 

 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I have no idea who Angus Barbieri is,

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-true-story-of-a-man-who-survived-without-any-food-for-382-days

 

[teachermom2834]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

No prob, no need to go into personal details on the internet.  I'm relaying the questions to ask oneself, not trying to pry as well as sharing what is working for people I know who have moved from obese to normal and kept the weight off.  I'll note that 1200 is no longer the min cals for petite women; its been changed to 1000 per the doctors in my area. (I have no idea if you are a petite or not, no need to post that). 

A good website of personal stories is myfitnesspal, if you want to meet others similar to yourself.  

And yes, I can relate, having been in the same situation. Your exercise routine is similar to what mine was and did not work.  I had to go to 45-60 min at a particular heartrate to see any movement aside from the genetic work. Walking is useless for me for weight loss, can't get the necessary heartrate although I have lots of fitbit badges and worn out sneakers, but it is good to soak sunshine and get lymph circulation in. 1200 cal diet useless, had to go to 1000. I had to take that advice to question my assumptions, or accept what I had.

I'll remove everything I quoted, including this one.

I don’t disagree with any of this. Sure, I could eat less than 1200 calories a day (I’ve done much much less for periods of time). I could also exercise more (and I have that in my history too).

Are you saying that will fix my metabolism? And then my body will be healed like those who have had surgery are saying their bodies have healed and their metabolism is closer to a normal person? I have admitted in every post that I could do more. But I still don’t think my metabolism is normal. That’s all I was saying. That the math doesn’t work for calories in and calories out for me. 

[Pen]

8 hours ago, Pen said:

Disclaimer—I have not myself read the following book and I knew it’s author years ago.

I can vouch that he had a terrible problem with weight since boyhood. Possibly as a book by a man and with some humor, it would appeal to your son. Having not read it I don’t know anything about its content information, but would guess that John was finding similar things to what we have been talking about in this thread. 

 

John J Ordover

Lie There and Lose Weight: How I Lost 100 Pounds By Doing Next to Nothing

 

 

 

I found this on Hoopla and downloaded it. 

It is different than what I had expected!!!

Unlike so many people who seem to find exercise key, for him, exercise stimulated his “hunger “ so much it caused diet failure. So he dropped exercise as a component of his plan. 

I do think that a teenage boy might like the book. 

[BeachGal]

8 hours ago, regentrude said:

Maybe slightly OT, but does one know how Angus Barbieri was able to refrain from eating for a year to lose 270 lbs? Did he simply have tremendous willpower? From what I've read, he just decided to do it, and that was it.

 

Angus began to feel better so he decided to continue fasting. He didn’t need much willpower because he wasn’t hungry. Hunger pangs are the worst usually around day 2 of a fast and then begin to diminish. Many people also feel energized. Jason Fung explains this on his blog if you’re interested.

[BeachGal]

14 hours ago, regentrude said:

I found the discussion about ACE in relation to obesity interesting, but am wondering whether this does not ignore a huge cultural component. If ACE were the determining factor, wouldn't one expect the generation of Europeans who were collectively traumatized as children by WWII to be obese? The trauma of losing a father, the widowed mother who is trying to cope with the loss, enduring famine, being a homeless refugee because your city got bombed to pieces, coupled with a culture where corporal punishment, ie physical abuse, was the societal norm, must lead to very high ACE scores. Yet obesity rates were far below what is observed now.

 

Support, even if found later in life, helps to mitigate the damaging effects of high ACE scores. If a person experiences multiple traumatic events but has a supportive network of family and community, that can prevent and heal problems.

Also cardiovascular disease and certain cancers are high in people with high ACE scores even if they don’t appear to have any other unhealthy coping mechanisms.

Quality of food, consumption of sugar, when and how often we eat have also changed since WWII and are probably contributing to rates of obesity.

[Katy]

16 hours ago, regentrude said:

Maybe slightly OT, but does one know how Angus Barbieri was able to refrain from eating for a year to lose 270 lbs? Did he simply have tremendous willpower? From what I've read, he just decided to do it, and that was it.

 

Yes, once you get through the first 10 days physical hunger is basically nill until you lose excess fat. You do have to stay away from the smell of food though, because it can trigger hunger.  I've done a couple medium term fasts for religious reasons, and every time I quit earlier than I expected it was because I was unavoidably around the smell of cooking food. I've seen some vlogs of women who went on long term fasts while still cooking for their families, and I have no idea how they have such willpower.  There's a woman on YouTube who did something like 3- 40 day fasts in a row, with only a short break in between. She talked about hunger the entire time.  In one of the videos she described it more as the urge to eat, rather than a physical, stomach-based hunger.  I have no idea how she accomplished that.  There's so many times I thought I might fast until noon, then licked the peanut butter from my kids' toast off my thumb when making breakfast, totally without thinking about it until I'd already swallowed.  I've been terrible at fasting since I had kids.

8 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I found this on Hoopla and downloaded it. 

It is different than what I had expected!!!

Unlike so many people who seem to find exercise key, for him, exercise stimulated his “hunger “ so much it caused diet failure. So he dropped exercise as a component of his plan. 

I do think that a teenage boy might like the book. 

 

Yes, Penn Jillette discussed this in his book, Presto!: How I Made Over 100 Pounds Disappear and Other Magical Tales.  Penn did it without surgery, but did start with a modified fast of plain baked potatoes (regular and sweet, with skin, no butter or other seasonings). Then he expanded to other, mostly vegan-type foods.  He still eats that way most of the time but calls himself plant-based rather than vegan because he still eats a big feast including meat & other junk every 2-6ish weeks. Most of the time he never thinks about food unless he's hungry.  He goes into great detail about how he followed his smartest friend's plan, which was basically - we're supposed to lose fat in the cold winter when we're stuck inside with a seasonal fast, and it's much easier to lose weight when you're not exercising.  Just put muscle back on later because your body is either in losing mode or building mode, both for fat and muscle.

[lmrich]

I have not read the entire thread.  

Adding strength training has made a difference for me. Cardio and movement is fantastic, but adding muscle has changed my metabolism.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

23 hours ago, regentrude said:

I found the discussion about ACE in relation to obesity interesting, but am wondering whether this does not ignore a huge cultural component. If ACE were the determining factor, wouldn't one expect the generation of Europeans who were collectively traumatized as children by WWII to be obese? The trauma of losing a father, the widowed mother who is trying to cope with the loss, enduring famine, being a homeless refugee because your city got bombed to pieces, coupled with a culture where corporal punishment, ie physical abuse, was the societal norm, must lead to very high ACE scores. Yet obesity rates were far below what is observed now.

 

Three thoughts, not in order:

1. Remember America's evangelical religious history, especially in the Bible Belt where a lot of people are obese. Until this generation, when so many have turned to drugs, a lot of people would not have chosen other chemical addictions for coping, like alcohol and cigarettes. Abusive or uncontrolled consumption of food is more acceptable socially, even if there is a stigma associated with obesity. WW2 survivors in Europe may have become alcoholic or chain smokers, but American church ladies get fat.

2. "Frankenfoods" - before the introduction of HFCS, trans fats, and the rest of the chemical stew, there were a lot fewer obese people in American communities. Junk foods now are literally addictive. Before food was chemically addictive, fewer people could get a buzz from it, or get into an over-consumption loop that their brain won't let them break. When I was in elementary school in the early eighties, I only knew one or two overweight children, and most of the adults were a healthy weight. We definitely exercised more. Urban sprawl did not yet exist. But the bigger factor was that our food was just food. Cooked at home, non-addictive. Also, we hadn't demonized meat and fat yet, so we didn't know what carb highs felt like. (They feel addictive, thanks to roller coaster blood sugars.) We didn't know how to comfort ourselves with food yet. Now, to unlearn it, you have to switch to a whole foods diet. There is no other way. That's what the Whole30 is about, or low carb diets, or plant based diets. 

3. ACE is about abuse and abandonment, primarily at the hands of those who were supposed to nurture you, more than about trauma. An adult with a high ACE score, who is homeschooling her children, will have to deal with strange feelings when reading them books like "Number the Stars," knowing it's wrong to feel jealous of children enduring war times, death and loss - but she does envy them because they have their parents' presence, comfort, and support - and even a legacy of love that goes with them if they are separated by death. I remember reading that a child whose father had died or been killed, if he had been a good father - a role model, hero, and supporter of his child - that child's "chances" in life are the same as before his father died. His father is dead but he is not fatherless. He is not in the category least likely to graduate from high school and most likely to be in prison.

[Pen]

3 hours ago, Katy said:

 

Yes, once you get through the first 10 days physical hunger is basically nill until you lose excess fat. You do have to stay away from the smell of food though, because it can trigger hunger.  I've done a couple medium term fasts for religious reasons, and every time I quit earlier than I expected it was because I was unavoidably around the smell of cooking food. I've seen some vlogs of women who went on long term fasts while still cooking for their families, and I have no idea how they have such willpower.  There's a woman on YouTube who did something like 3- 40 day fasts in a row, with only a short break in between. She talked about hunger the entire time.  In one of the videos she described it more as the urge to eat, rather than a physical, stomach-based hunger.  I have no idea how she accomplished that.  There's so many times I thought I might fast until noon, then licked the peanut butter from my kids' toast off my thumb when making breakfast, totally without thinking about it until I'd already swallowed.  I've been terrible at fasting since I had kids.

 

Yes, Penn Jillette discussed this in his book, Presto!: How I Made Over 100 Pounds Disappear and Other Magical Tales.  Penn did it without surgery, but did start with a modified fast of plain baked potatoes (regular and sweet, with skin, no butter or other seasonings). Then he expanded to other, mostly vegan-type foods.  He still eats that way most of the time but calls himself plant-based rather than vegan because he still eats a big feast including meat & other junk every 2-6ish weeks. Most of the time he never thinks about food unless he's hungry.  He goes into great detail about how he followed his smartest friend's plan, which was basically - we're supposed to lose fat in the cold winter when we're stuck inside with a seasonal fast, and it's much easier to lose weight when you're not exercising.  Just put muscle back on later because your body is either in losing mode or building mode, both for fat and muscle.

 

That sounds interesting too. 

I think the main point being made by the book that I mentioned is that the author had to find what worked for him, physically and emotionally, which was in a number of aspects different than what others were saying works or must be done 

 

For him, as well that “truism “ about not feeling “hunger” after a certain time did not seem to hold true. 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Pen
My comment on the first part got lost.

[ktgrok]

16 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I found this on Hoopla and downloaded it. 

It is different than what I had expected!!!

Unlike so many people who seem to find exercise key, for him, exercise stimulated his “hunger “ so much it caused diet failure. So he dropped exercise as a component of his plan. 

I do think that a teenage boy might like the book. 

There is evidence that this varies from person to person. I am one of the ones who gets hungry from exercise. My friends were astonished that halfway through a run I would be craving a big juicy burger. Where she felt like she would be nauseous if she even looked at food at that point.

[scholastica]

21 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

There is evidence that this varies from person to person. I am one of the ones who gets hungry from exercise. My friends were astonished that halfway through a run I would be craving a big juicy burger. Where she felt like she would be nauseous if she even looked at food at that point.

There is also evidence it varies between men and women. For most men, exercise suppresses hunger long term. For most women, it suppresses hunger temporarily and it comes back with a vengeance.

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

There is evidence that this varies from person to person. I am one of the ones who gets hungry from exercise. My friends were astonished that halfway through a run I would be craving a big juicy burger. Where she felt like she would be nauseous if she even looked at food at that point.

 

Exercise makes me ravenous!  Like I want to eat the paint off the walls or chew my own arm off.  I often wonder if I'd be better off not working out.  

[itsheresomewhere]

DH and I both get massively hungry after a good workout.  His doctor says it really varies from person to person.

[Kassia]

8 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

Swimming always made me ravenous. Walking doesn't, just thirsty. You all are depressing me--I was just diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, but have been walking 10 miles a day. I've taken off 7 pounds, but my house is a wreck since I'm gone so much. I hope my walking doesn't quit working. 

 

That's great that the walking is working well for you!  Please don't get depressed - the walking is good for you and doesn't make you hungry.  I don't think it will quit working for you.  Keep up the great work and don't worry about the house.  ?

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

Swimming always made me ravenous. Walking doesn't, just thirsty. You all are depressing me--I was just diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, but have been walking 10 miles a day. I've taken off 7 pounds, but my house is a wreck since I'm gone so much. I hope my walking doesn't quit working. 

10 miles is amazing!  i don't thnk it will stop working.  

Dss colunteered to Dh on Friday that he (dss) had weighed that morning and he is down to 307. That is 17 pounds down from his high weight.  So that is encouraging.  That takes his BMI down to just under 40.  

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

10 miles is amazing!  i don't thnk it will stop working.  

Dss colunteered to Dh on Friday that he (dss) had weighed that morning and he is down to 307. That is 17 pounds down from his high weight.  So that is encouraging.  That takes his BMI down to just under 40.  

 

Great job Dss!  ?

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

10 miles is amazing!  i don't thnk it will stop working.  

Dss colunteered to Dh on Friday that he (dss) had weighed that morning and he is down to 307. That is 17 pounds down from his high weight.  So that is encouraging.  That takes his BMI down to just under 40.  

 

That's awesome! Great job DSS! 

I'm another one who has a bunch of weight to lose (I think about 50 lbs now) and I am vigilant about what I eat. I have met with a dietician and have been following his recommendations to the letter. I also added in more exercise and joined a gym in the last month. It's been about 4 weeks of me going 4x/week and working hard for an hour at both cardio and weightlifting. On the days I don't go, I walk. I eat between 1100-1300 calories a day with very little junk/processed foods and have been sticking to the dietician recommended 40/30/30 breakdown. Last time I got on the scale, I had gained 2 lbs. At this point, I'm going to focus on health and getting stronger and increasing my endurance with the cardio (ie. going from fast walking to jogging). 

It sucks though. It's hard to be so careful and work so hard and know darn well people are seeing me as fat and lazy. 

[Pen]

11 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

Swimming always made me ravenous. Walking doesn't, just thirsty. You all are depressing me--I was just diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, but have been walking 10 miles a day. I've taken off 7 pounds, but my house is a wreck since I'm gone so much. I hope my walking doesn't quit working. 

 

I am sorry to hear about the diagnosis. I hope you’re going to be one of the people who can turn that around. I’m impressed by the walking distance!!

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

10 miles is amazing!  i don't thnk it will stop working.  

Dss colunteered to Dh on Friday that he (dss) had weighed that morning and he is down to 307. That is 17 pounds down from his high weight.  So that is encouraging.  That takes his BMI down to just under 40.  

 

That is excellent!

[teachermom2834]

11 minutes ago, AmandaVT said:

 

That's awesome! Great job DSS! 

I'm another one who has a bunch of weight to lose (I think about 50 lbs now) and I am vigilant about what I eat. I have met with a dietician and have been following his recommendations to the letter. I also added in more exercise and joined a gym in the last month. It's been about 4 weeks of me going 4x/week and working hard for an hour at both cardio and weightlifting. On the days I don't go, I walk. I eat between 1100-1300 calories a day with very little junk/processed foods and have been sticking to the dietician recommended 40/30/30 breakdown. Last time I got on the scale, I had gained 2 lbs. At this point, I'm going to focus on health and getting stronger and increasing my endurance with the cardio (ie. going from fast walking to jogging). 

It sucks though. It's hard to be so careful and work so hard and know darn well people are seeing me as fat and lazy. 

I just want to say I believe you that you are eating right and exercising! The assumption that you are not being honest about what you eat or actually working out is painful.

I am also focusing on health and taking heart in getting stronger. The most recent time I had push ups on my video they were much easier than the last time I had them and I was able to do more in a set. I took heart in that improvement. I will admit vanity and appearance was always my motivator in the past so it is a real mindset shift to focus on gains in strength and health that are not reflected in my clothing size. 

Right there with you! It does feel awful to know people see me as fat and lazy. Or they think I'm sneaking through the drive through after my workout. I haven't eaten food from a drive through in at least five years. 

[Kassia]

2 hours ago, AmandaVT said:

 

Last time I got on the scale, I had gained 2 lbs. At this point, I'm going to focus on health and getting stronger and increasing my endurance with the cardio (ie. going from fast walking to jogging). 

It sucks though. It's hard to be so careful and work so hard and know darn well people are seeing me as fat and lazy. 

 

The number on the scale doesn't tell you a whole lot, though. If you're new to weight training your body composition may be changing to more muscle and less fat.  But it's a great idea to focus on improved health and fitness!  You will feel better mentally and physically.

The judgment from other people is the hardest part of the weight issue for me.  I don't know why I care but I do.

 

[Scarlett]

Dss talked to me a long time this morning about his weight.  While he was eating a grilled chicken salad.  I saw him measuring the olive oil type dressing that he put on it too.  I shared a lot of what I learned and he nodded along in agreement.  I told him I see this battle as part metabolic, part psychological part stick -to- ivetoness (is that a word?  LOL) .  He agress with me totally that he has to figure out the why of backsliding in which he gains back what he lost plus 20 pounds.  

I strong armed him the other day to put an app on his phone to count his steps....he was annoyed when I made him do it....but this morning he told me what a great app it is with all sorts of tools with in...so I am happy he is finding that useful.  

[umsami]

My eldest has always struggled with his weight.  His BMi is in the high 30s.  He's been very frustrated with various attempts, but I recently got him to try weight watchers.  They were having a 50% off sale, so it was only like $3-something per week.  Anyways, he just finished his first week.  He lost 9 pounds.  He's never seen success like that before.  All of the zero point foods help, as well as his ability to still eat out with friends but stay on plan.   (He gets double the points I get--annoying! :D)    

Because he is motivated this time, it's making all the difference.  

[Pen]

On 7/10/2018 at 8:08 AM, Tibbie Dunbar said:

Well, I can tell you that I found a lifestyle plan that apparently addressed all my mechanical issues. I lost 100 pounds and reversed type 2 diabetes and my lupus, also, became quite mild and manageable. I recommend Joel Fuhrman's Eat to Live and The End of Diabetes, for anyone who can't do the low carb 

Then something happened to me, and triggered a lot of childhood and young adult trauma memories, and I learned all the other reasons why I was sick and overweight. I didn't even realize I was registering all of that, for over six months, when I finally noticed I'd restarted old habits and neglected my health. I can't explain to you HOW it's possible that I didn't know I was punishing myself, but I can tell you (again) that if you'll study the plight of adults with high ACE* scores, it's as common as dirt to be triggered and then regress like that.

Lucky for me, I did figure this all out, and I'm back on plan. But it will take until Christmas to get back to the same level of health. I'm an educated adult with a good, safe life, and I can come at this from a position of strength. I can also afford good nutrition and vitamins. Aaaand I've cut off family members who know how to push my buttons at such a destructive level...not everyone can do all this, not everyone has all this...

There are mechanical factors that must be addressed, in every obese person. But it's almost always going to be far more work and stringency than "eat less, move more." The body is going to have to be shocked and psyched out, by various tricks, or it will "make" the person eat more and gain again, Surgery is one trick. There are doctors (like Fuhrman and Esselstyn and Yung) who are pioneering nutrition and lifestyle methods but they are NOT easy. It is not easy to treat yourself like a science project while you have no choice but to live like a human, and it's very hard if you've coped with trauma through behaviors that are exact opposite of what you must do. Some of us would rather do that work than die of disease, but that's very personal. Not everyone is up for it, not everyone understands it, not everyone has time, money, and support.

*Adverse Childhood Experiences. Your stepson likely scores rather high on this. He may not even know it, because it's been his normal, and he may even think he's okay. I thought I was okay as a young adult, but anyone could have seen that I wasn't. I figured it out, very, very painfully, in my thirties, and I'm still trying to overcome it in my forties. 

 

I confess I was not familiar with Fuhrman until I read your post. 

When I looked it up, I discovered that my MMT program has me eating mostly overlapping foods with Fuhrman.

My daily mainstay is a huge salad, for example. That may be part of why I am tending to feel stuffed just trying to eat all of my daily nutrition requirements   

Thanks for mentioning Fuhrman. 

And thank you for sharing about your ACE experience — including being retriggered. 

I suspect a lot of diet failures have to do with ACE triggers where people don’t realize what has happened. 

[Scarlett]

Someone mentioned they suspect my dss has a high ACE score.  I then went to look at it and it would appear to me from my knowledge that his score is a one.

An interesting note.....I buy plain Greek yogurt.  In the past he has refused to eat it....says it is gross--but he loves sweet yogurt.   I noticed this morning he had eaten one of the plain  before bed last night.  And I also noticed he did not go back for seconds last night.