If it’s possible w/o breaking board rules, can someone give me

[Amira]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

IME, there are many people who have tons of racism in their heads and are, in fact, racist, but don’t think they are. They just think they are “normal.” 

I remember one time, I was at a pool party for end-of-season sports party. There was a couple who were Middle Eastern and were Muslim. (There were also other non-White people on the team, but let’s stick with this one example.) So, I’m sitting on the pool step with the ME lady to my left and a white lady to my right. We are talking about sunscreen and how easily/not easily we burn. I burn easily and don’t tan that dark. The white lady says, “I hardly ever burn. By the end of the summer, I will be so dark, I’ll look like a terrorist.” I was absolutely stunned. The ME lady said nothing. I said nothing.

So, here’s the thing: do I think the white lady has a (racist) narrative in her head about “dark skinned = terrorist? Yes, I do. Do I think she purposfully said that because she was maligning the ME woman? No, I don’t. I don’t even think it ocurred to her that she had said something gallingly offensive. 

Now - what would happen if someone pulled her aside and told her, “That was quite hurtful, I am sure, to ———, who has dark skin and is Muslim. You ought not to compare having dark skin with terrorism. Obviously having dark skin does not make one a terrorist.” Would it dawn on her? Would she get defensive? Would she change? I don’t know. But people don’t have an opportunity to change for the better unless they get information. 

There were lots of things I did not realize were racist and a slur until I learned otherwise directly. I think it’s nuts to think people will just “pick up” on certain things. 

In your example, I would hope someone would say something about the racist statement immediately. I think pulling someone aside can be a decent strategy at times, but not in this case when someone who is a implied target of the statement is sitting there.

I do think it’s imporant to extend some grace when you’re pointing out a racist statement to someone because sometimes they honestly don’t know, and if you don’t know the person well, you don’t know if racism is normal for them or not. The problem is that a lot of people consciously choose to say horribly racist things, rather than unknowingly doing so and saying something to them won’t help at all.   

It’s really hard for me to imagine that someone wouldn’t be aware that implying that terrorists have “dark” skin is racist so in this case I would be *much* more concerned about the target of the statement, not the person making it. I think that saying something right then is important.  It’s okay to say that you don’t agree with something someone else said, and silence sometimes implies that you do agree, or at least that you were more worried about hurting the feelings of the woman who said the racist statement than supporting the woman who was actually the target (intended or not) of the statement.

[Daria]

25 minutes ago, Amira said:

In your example, I would hope someone would say something about the racist statement immediately. I think pulling someone aside can be a decent strategy at times, but not in this case when someone who is a implied target of the statement is sitting there.

I do think it’s imporant to extend some grace when you’re pointing out a racist statement to someone because sometimes they honestly don’t know, and if you don’t know the person well, you don’t know if racism is normal for them or not. The problem is that a lot of people consciously choose to say horribly racist things, rather than unknowingly doing so and saying something to them won’t help at all.   

It’s really hard for me to imagine that someone wouldn’t be aware that implying that terrorists have “dark” skin is racist so in this case I would be *much* more concerned about the target of the statement, not the person making it. I think that saying something right then is important.  It’s okay to say that you don’t agree with something someone else said, and silence sometimes implies that you do agree, or at least that you were more worried about hurting the feelings of the woman who said the racist statement than supporting the woman who was actually the target (intended or not) of the statement.

 

I agree with this.  Your empathy should lie with the target, say what you need to say to show them that you're an ally.

When my African American son was in Kindergarten, we were sitting on the playground and I mentioned that I was thinking of transferring my son to a charter school.  Another parent, the parent of a close friend of my son's, someone whose house my son had played at without me there, said "Why would you do that.  There are so many black children there.  Aren't you afraid?"

I was stunned, so stunned that I couldn't even respond, but the parent of another of my son's friends jumped in.  I can't remember what she said, other than it was perfect.  Honestly, it was probably the only thing that kept me from jumping from "this woman is a racist idiot and will never be alone with my child again."  to feeling like the school and community wasn't a safe place for my child.  

So yes, say something.  

[SKL]

53 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Re: talking about people's noses. I would tell the child (in private if possible) that it's considered rude to discuss people's characteristics aloud/in a negative way. I wouldn't allow it for "big belly" any more than "big nose" regardless of race. If the conversation is shut down on a whole then the child won't have to decide if it's racist or not. They'd already stop doing it.

 

I assure you I've told her that many times.

She would not intentionally say it where the person could hear her, but she can sometimes be oblivious about what others may hear.

It's easy to say "tell her not to talk that way," not so easy to make it actually stop.

[SKL]

Interesting about the stunned silence after hearing a blatantly racist remark.  I agree that saying some well-chosen words right away would be best - but I can also understand why finding the right words in the moment could be hard.  I would be worried about making it worse via my own clumsy response.  But I hope I would be able to think of something to say.

Like maybe "well of course terrorists can be any color."  Though that might lead a clueless person to go on blathering how "yeah but you know ____."  Maybe saying the response and following it immediately with an invitation to the other friend to walk away to another location or a decided change of subject ....  But it's easier to think of these things when we're not in the middle of the situation.

[SKL]

9 minutes ago, StellaM said:

If your kid says 'Mom, that man's nose makes him look like an ape' she probably doesn't mean to be racist, but it is still a racist comment, and you should discourage her from making that comparison and explain why.

If she says 'Mom, that man has a big nose' in the same way she might comment 'Mom, that lady is fat'  she's just showing a lack of social niceties. 

OK but where I live, race relations are not the best, and the "wide nose" comment is going to be taken as a racist statement even though it's no different from her saying the exact same thing about a white person's nose.

And although I agree that a cognizant person past a certain age is probably racist* if he compares a person of color to an ape, I'm still not convinced that's the case with a kid who does not think that way.  She has compared white people to animals before.  I haven't heard her do it about black people, but if she said the exact same words about a white person and a black person, with no racist intent, then I don't think it's racism.  It's nasty, to both people, but it's got nothing to do with race.

Anyhoo, I feel the need to teach my kids these differences because like I said, certain things are just not going to fly no matter the intent.  Because people who don't know us have no idea what is going on in our minds.  (And people love to say "they obviously hear that at home," which is BS.)  I just find it awkward to explain that the same exact words mean something different when spoken about a person with a certain ancestry - even though the ancestry had nothing to do with what was said.

*"probably racist" in the 2nd paragraph because it might not apply in some cases.  For example, I have an Indian friend who said our Indian ex-boss looked like an orangutan.  Arguably not racist.  (Is it racist if I say that when I heard that, I laughed because there was some truth to it?)  If the same friend said that a black person looked like a gorilla, that would arguably be racist.  If she said a white person looked like a chimpanzee ... I'm sure here on this board it would be considered not racist since it was a POC to non-POC.  Not sure I agree with this analysis 100%.

[goldberry]

I don't think it's really that hard. If something has a history of being used to demean a race or ethnic group, then don't say it to a person of that race or ethnic group. 

A person or child who says something like that unknowingly is not *intending* the comment to be racist. The comment itself is still a racist comment, and if the person is made aware of it they should stop. A comment or action can be harmful without harmful intent. It does not make the person saying it "a racist pig", but it does mean they should stop saying it.

(Cross posted with Stella!)

Also, I would assume for myself that the ape thing should just not be used period. The idea of being lower on the evolutionary ladder is just icky.

 

 

[Ausmumof3]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

I’m saying they would not realize it is a slur. It has been around them their whole lives and was casually used and nobody said, “don’t say that; it is a slur.” They can fail to have realized. 

I remember one time on these boards, someone was very upset over the term, “gyped.” I never in my life realized before that that “gyped” is a loaded term against Gypsies. (Or Romanov peoples or whatever they are called properly now.) I have heard people far and wide proclaim that they were gyped. 

And some terms are “minded” by some and not others. I think that with “Black.” Some people are fine with that descriptor. Some are not. I feel hesitant sometimes to even use a term. I used to work with a woman (with dark skin and kinky hair) who would get annoyed when people called her African American. She was Jamaican. But there’s no way to know she did not have African heritage and this was during a time when I was afraid to say Black. Once I knew she was Jamaican, okay, no problem. I will use that word in her case. 

Queer is like that, too. Some people hate Queer and others don’t mind it. 

And I never realised that was the origin of gyped.  In fact I would have spelled it jipped.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

And I never realised that was the origin of gyped.  In fact I would have spelled it jipped.

Me too, and also the person who touched off the firestorm on these boards. The poster wrote “jipped.” And was strongly corrected that it’s “gyped” and then the intense discussion of that term ensued. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

Interesting about the stunned silence after hearing a blatantly racist remark.  I agree that saying some well-chosen words right away would be best - but I can also understand why finding the right words in the moment could be hard.  I would be worried about making it worse via my own clumsy response.  But I hope I would be able to think of something to say.

Like maybe "well of course terrorists can be any color."  Though that might lead a clueless person to go on blathering how "yeah but you know ____."  Maybe saying the response and following it immediately with an invitation to the other friend to walk away to another location or a decided change of subject ....  But it's easier to think of these things when we're not in the middle of the situation.

Yes, that would be me. I would doubtfully be able to engage properly in a discussion except with a very good friend, my spouse, or my kids. In front of people I barely know, no. I had no idea what to say. 

It’s not just racism. I never know what to say when people say shockingly rude or harsh things. 

[marbel]

43 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yes, that would be me. I would doubtfully be able to engage properly in a discussion except with a very good friend, my spouse, or my kids. In front of people I barely know, no. I had no idea what to say. 

It’s not just racism. I never know what to say when people say shockingly rude or harsh things. 

I never can either.  I'm not a quick thinker in any situation, but when someone says something shocking I can never manage more than stunned silence.  

Hours after reading your post, I can come up with "What!? Patty! Surely you are not implying that all dark-skinned people are terrorists!"  

[SKL]

Right - the term "speechless" exists for a reason.

Maybe there's a way to train ourselves to find the words when it really matters.

[nixpix5]

On 5/29/2018 at 4:52 PM, Farrar said:

It's fascinating to me that some people don't think comparing Black people to monkeys or apes is necessarily racist. We're all just speaking different languages in this country at this point.

This. I felt physically ill when I read what she said and I was actually enjoying the reboot as a bit of nostalgia but that wasn't just a step over the proverbial line, it was blatant racism and completely nauseating.

[LucyStoner]

If you don't know what to say, I recommend just saying "I beg your pardon?"  Repeat as necessary until the person feels soundly embarrassed.  If you are able, tack in a "Why would you say that?" and/or an "I hope you don't think I agree with you about this."

[Lang Syne Boardie]

6 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

If you don't know what to say, I recommend just saying "I beg your pardon?"  Repeat as necessary until the person feels soundly embarrassed.  If you are able, tack in a "Why would you say that?" and/or an "I hope you don't think I agree with you about this."

 

I like that last one.

Miss Manners used to say that the best way to respond, if you felt super awkward and somehow subordinate to the bigot because of the relationship, would be to lean forward and make eye contact, and quietly say, "My mother was a ________." She said it didn't matter how impossible that was; it makes the point. She once told someone that her mother was a gay black man, and that was in the 1960s.

I guess it doesn't always work. For the previous example of the person who didn't want to tan to Clairol Shade Terrorist, you wouldn't say, "My mother was the color of a terrorist." That's as stupid as what the woman had said. Terrorism is not a nationality, religion, or ethnic group. It's a criminal decision that should not be attributed to decent people. So you wouldn't affirm the categorization or stereotype in any way.

But (A) you aren't subordinate, and (B) you owe it to the innocent people standing by, who may feel helpless, to get the upper hand. (C) So no reason to hold back, unless you're afraid of violence. You'd have to be more direct and say something like, "You are already the color of KKK members, Nazis, and school shooters? Maybe I've missed your point?"

[SKL]

27 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

I like that last one.

Miss Manners used to say that the best way to respond, if you felt super awkward and somehow subordinate to the bigot because of the relationship, would be to lean forward and make eye contact, and quietly say, "My mother was a ________." She said it didn't matter how impossible that was; it makes the point. She once told someone that her mother was a gay black man, and that was in the 1960s.

I guess it doesn't always work. For the previous example of the person who didn't want to tan to Clairol Shade Terrorist, you wouldn't say, "My mother was the color of a terrorist." That's as stupid as what the woman had said. Terrorism is not a nationality, religion, or ethnic group. It's a criminal decision that should not be attributed to decent people. So you wouldn't affirm the categorization or stereotype in any way.

But (A) you aren't subordinate, and (B) you owe it to the innocent people standing by, who may feel helpless, to get the upper hand. (C) So no reason to hold back, unless you're afraid of violence. You'd have to be more direct and say something like, "You are already the color of KKK members, Nazis, and school shooters? Maybe I've missed your point?"

I love Miss Manners!  Another possibility is to say "my child is a ___" or other close person.

In the present case it would still work to say "my __ is a beautiful dark brown shade and s/he is certainly not a terrorist."

[SquirrellyMama]

On 6/2/2018 at 1:45 PM, SKL said:

Yeah, to me "squirrel" would imply "squirrely" which suggests a bad personality.

Squirrelly to me has this definition. Not a bad personality. I'm a bit restless and unpredictable ?

1. .

   NORTH AMERICANinformal

   restless, nervous, or unpredictable.

 

[LucyStoner]

Wrong thread!

[unsinkable]

23 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

There is a picture of a homemade pizza on her blog that she says will be their dinner for the night.  Five people?  My 14-year-old son would eat 1/2-3/4s of that entire pizza, a couple of apples, carrots and a bowl of popcorn and probably some dessert on any given Friday night (which is pizza and movie night here).  1/5th of that tiny pizza wouldn't even feed my 9-year-old son, much less my husband.  

I think she is not being completely honest.  If she is being completely honest, I think that she has an unhealthy obsession.  

Wrong thread.

 

[SKL]

45 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

Squirrelly to me has this definition. Not a bad personality. I'm a bit restless and unpredictable ?

1. .

   NORTH AMERICANinformal

   restless, nervous, or unpredictable.

    

 

I mean no disrespect.

The way it is used in my culture, it means a person you can't trust or count on.  Like someone who will say they are going to do / did something and it never gets done, runs from responsibilities.  It's an epithet in my culture.  I wouldn't use it to describe my kids unless they had really disappointed me on a large scale.

[Ausmumof3]

20 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

 

The thing is, what does her ‘ideal’ nose look like. As a parent, that’s what would concern me. Children of all races and ethnicities tent to idealize traditionally Caucasian features above all else—narrow, long-ish, pronounced bridge, straight, symmetrical, etc. If that’s what she’s praising, I’d be addressing standards of beauty in general and the derivation thereof.

Or you could take a utilitarian approach to noses.  There's a science study out there about how different nose shapes tend to relate to the climate of the place they lived.  Some shape noses seem to give a survival advantage to those living in certain climates...

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/mar/16/climate-shaped-the-human-nose-researchers-say

[SquirrellyMama]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I mean no disrespect.

The way it is used in my culture, it means a person you can't trust or count on.  Like someone who will say they are going to do / did something and it never gets done, runs from responsibilities.  It's an epithet in my culture.  I wouldn't use it to describe my kids unless they had really disappointed me on a large scale.

That's really interesting. Can I ask which culture? I think word and phrase differences between cultures can be fascinating. It can also be tricky.

Kelly

[goldberry]

7 minutes ago, seekinghim45 said:

 

I live in Texas and that is what squirrely means to me as well...someone you cannot trust. 

 

From Texas, and it means the same to me.  Wishy, washy, unreliable.

[SKL]

Re the kid and the nose comment ... I'm really trying to get at something more basic.  How to explain to kids why the same words are heard differently by different people.  It requires introducing ugly, unfortunate things that do not otherwise come up in their environment.  Obviously they all have to learn it someday.  But bring it up too young, and they may not get the message you're trying to send.  They might get the exact opposite message.  I have seen this happen with other topics.

[goldberry]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Re the kid and the nose comment ... I'm really trying to get at something more basic.  How to explain to kids why the same words are heard differently by different people.  It requires introducing ugly, unfortunate things that do not otherwise come up in their environment.  Obviously they all have to learn it someday.  But bring it up too young, and they may not get the message you're trying to send.  They might get the exact opposite message.  I have seen this happen with other topics.

 

Isn't it something we introduce to all children, that people have different experiences than they do?  It's a part of history, that some people have been treated very badly because of their skin color, or because of where they are from.  Because of that, words that relate back to that time period are very hurtful to them. In fact, some people even still use those words to hurt them.  Isn't it sad?  But we wouldn't want to contribute to anyone feeling hurt, so we don't use those words with those people.  It never seemed hard to me.

I don't think you can bring it up too young honestly.  DD had a black girl who was her best friend from about 2 years old.  She still came home from pre-school saying she couldn't play with certain kids because they had different skin color from her.  WTH??  They WILL get exposed to the bad stuff, and like sex, much sooner that you expect it. 

[LucyStoner]

Squirrely means liar/unreliable to me.  Not sure why.  Still doesn't mean I don't know exactly WHY it's not ok to liken black and brown people to apes.  And I knew why before the internet was a household thing, I really scratch my head at the notion that people might only learn about this online.  

[Bluegoat]

5 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

Isn't it something we introduce to all children, that people have different experiences than they do?  It's a part of history, that some people have been treated very badly because of their skin color, or because of where they are from.  Because of that, words that relate back to that time period are very hurtful to them. In fact, some people even still use those words to hurt them.  Isn't it sad?  But we wouldn't want to contribute to anyone feeling hurt, so we don't use those words with those people.  It never seemed hard to me.

I don't think you can bring it up too young honestly.  DD had a black girl who was her best friend from about 2 years old.  She still came home from pre-school saying she couldn't play with certain kids because they had different skin color from her.  WTH??  They WILL get exposed to the bad stuff, and like sex, much sooner that you expect it. 

 

I have seen this sort of discussion go poorly with young kids, because they didn't understand it in the way the adults thought they did. I think if your kid is in the situation you describe, you have to explain - no, you can play with anyone no matter what they look like.  And maybe you have to talk about why people might say that, but I don't think that's always the case - sometimes the immediate is enough, when they still are really living in an immediate kind of world, mentally.  

My concern is that with young kids, when they misunderstand because something is too abstract, or too out of their experience, it's difficult to know, and if they have misunderstood they take it as authoritative.  They don't have the language to really communicate what they have concluded.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

I like that last one.

Miss Manners used to say that the best way to respond, if you felt super awkward and somehow subordinate to the bigot because of the relationship, would be to lean forward and make eye contact, and quietly say, "My mother was a ________." She said it didn't matter how impossible that was; it makes the point. She once told someone that her mother was a gay black man, and that was in the 1960s.

I guess it doesn't always work. For the previous example of the person who didn't want to tan to Clairol Shade Terrorist, you wouldn't say, "My mother was the color of a terrorist." That's as stupid as what the woman had said. Terrorism is not a nationality, religion, or ethnic group. It's a criminal decision that should not be attributed to decent people. So you wouldn't affirm the categorization or stereotype in any way.

But (A) you aren't subordinate, and (B) you owe it to the innocent people standing by, who may feel helpless, to get the upper hand. (C) So no reason to hold back, unless you're afraid of violence. You'd have to be more direct and say something like, "You are already the color of KKK members, Nazis, and school shooters? Maybe I've missed your point?"

I think these are great, and that last line especially, but as I said, I would never have thought of that in the moment. My brain was too busy going, “Did she really just say that???” I must have looked at the ME woman in my shock because I remember her face at that moment. Her mouth twitched. 

[marbel]

37 minutes ago, Quill said:

I think these are great, and that last line especially, but as I said, I would never have thought of that in the moment. My brain was too busy going, “Did she really just say that???” I must have looked at the ME woman in my shock because I remember her face at that moment. Her mouth twitched. 

Right.   And so now you have all sorts of ideas for when this same thing happens, but, it doesn't usually work that way.  This same thing likely won't happen to you again.   We've all had the advantage of reading about your situation and having time to formulate a response.

I'm sure some people are able to respond to these situations quickly, and I admire them for it.  But I also think some people who can quickly and easily react just don't get it that everyone's brain doesn't work the same way.  (I'm not picking on anyone here but thinking of people I know who are quick to criticize those of us who aren't such quick thinkers.)

[goldberry]

7 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

I have seen this sort of discussion go poorly with young kids, because they didn't understand it in the way the adults thought they did. I think if your kid is in the situation you describe, you have to explain - no, you can play with anyone no matter what they look like.  And maybe you have to talk about why people might say that, but I don't think that's always the case - sometimes the immediate is enough, when they still are really living in an immediate kind of world, mentally.  

My concern is that with young kids, when they misunderstand because something is too abstract, or too out of their experience, it's difficult to know, and if they have misunderstood they take it as authoritative.  They don't have the language to really communicate what they have concluded.

Can you give an example of what you mean?  Because I'm not sure I understand.

I gave the example I did of why it's okay and even necessary to address things when they are young.  I didn't mean go into a whole slavery/genocide explanation at that time.  But if a kid used a racist word against another person, for example, I would explain that word has been used a certain way and that is why we don't use that word.  It's the same with sex, you don't have to go into a whole spiel, but you should address what's in front of you.  If a 5 year old picks up the n-word, for example, they are ready for more than just "that's not a nice word".  You can say that black people used to be treated very badly in our country because of their skin color, and that was a very bad time.  The n-word was part of that, and people that use that word want to hurt black people even more.  Age appropriate, but direct.

Also, I thought with the nose comment discussion, the kid was 12?  12 I think is definitely old enough (if neurotypical) to understand there is a history of dehumanization for a particular race, and because of that some comments should not be made.  It's not really abstract at that age, is it?

[goldberry]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

 My brain was too busy going, “Did she really just say that???” I must have looked at the ME woman in my shock because I remember her face at that moment. Her mouth twitched. 

 

That's me every time.  I have a moment where I think, surely I did not hear what I just thought I heard....  And usually miss the chance to say something.  I hate it!

[Bluegoat]

10 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Can you give an example of what you mean?  Because I'm not sure I understand.

I gave the example I did of why it's okay and even necessary to address things when they are young.  I didn't mean go into a whole slavery/genocide explanation at that time.  But if a kid used a racist word against another person, for example, I would explain that word has been used a certain way and that is why we don't use that word.  It's the same with sex, you don't have to go into a whole spiel, but you should address what's in front of you.  If a 5 year old picks up the n-word, for example, they are ready for more than just "that's not a nice word".  You can say that black people used to be treated very badly in our country because of their skin color, and that was a very bad time.  The n-word was part of that, and people that use that word want to hurt black people even more.  Age appropriate, but direct.

Also, I thought with the nose comment discussion, the kid was 12?  12 I think is definitely old enough (if neurotypical) to understand there is a history of dehumanization for a particular race, and because of that some comments should not be made.  It's not really abstract at that age, is it?

 

Adressing the thing in front of you I think is always appropriate IMO.  I guess what is more the question is, what terms to you put it in?  Sometimes there is little choice.  But generally, with younger kids I think they can struggle with differentiating classes, and when they do differentiate, they are inclined to make inappropriate or untrue generalizations.  They seem to be able to relate to people as individuals, and to accept some universals as well.  Rather the same way the younger set do about sex and gender.  Though they usually grow out of those and I don't think any of these things create horrible outcomes when people basically have good will, their ideas get more complex as they get older.

As for real examples - I went to a fairly diverse school as I kid, and we all hung out together, but I remember being given talks about racism at a certain point in the school. This would have been the grade 1 and 2 years. I somehow got the idea from what they said that the problem with race was that people who were not white felt badly about being not white.  I am 100% sure that is not what the teachers had in mind, nor would I have thought of it myself, but it had the authority of something I thought an adult had told me.  It really bothered me, and for quite a while it made me feel very self-conscious around kids and adults who were from other backgrounds.  It wasn't for a few years that I was really able to figure out that racism was really about something completely different.

I also know someone who had a similar kind of experience where he became quite worried that if there had been things like slavery in the past, maybe it could be true that some people were better than others.  Maybe we were wrong, not them, kind of thing.  

Now, I doubt these were common responses, but I just think kids can get such strange ideas about things, it's best to try and respond in a way that is close to the way they are experiencing the world, if that makes sense?

I agree, 12 is old enough to be told that there are more complexities to their statements, and simply too that it is rude to comment negatively about appearance in almost every instance.  (But, 12 year olds don't always listen. ) I think where a 12 year old might struggle conceptually is connecting the idea that a true statement could also be wrong in another sense. They do seem to have a rather black and white way of thinking at times - If X, not Y.  And similar to what I said on the other thread, I think the concrete thinkers of the world tend to come to this later, sometimes not until the last teens.  Even adults can retain some of that tendency.

[Bluegoat]

26 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

That's me every time.  I have a moment where I think, surely I did not hear what I just thought I heard....  And usually miss the chance to say something.  I hate it!

 

I had a terrible experience like that a few years ago, someone said something that came off as really inappropriate.  I was shocked, but I also was really unsure of whether the person realized it was so inappropriate because it seemed out of character, and then what to say either way..  And then the moment kind of passed to say something right there.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

5 hours ago, marbel said:

Right.   And so now you have all sorts of ideas for when this same thing happens, but, it doesn't usually work that way.  This same thing likely won't happen to you again.   We've all had the advantage of reading about your situation and having time to formulate a response.

I'm sure some people are able to respond to these situations quickly, and I admire them for it.  But I also think some people who can quickly and easily react just don't get it that everyone's brain doesn't work the same way.  (I'm not picking on anyone here but thinking of people I know who are quick to criticize those of us who aren't such quick thinkers.)

 

Well, some people are quick thinkers, but unfortunately, a lot of people live in locales that are racist enough that they have time to work up a few retorts for the inevitable next time. It's not always raw talent. Sometimes the skill is acquired.

[LucyStoner]

8 minutes ago, Tibbie Dunbar said:

 

Well, some people are quick thinkers, but unfortunately, a lot of people live in locales that are racist enough that they have time to work up a few retorts for the inevitable next time. It's not always raw talent. Sometimes the skill is acquired.

 

Exactly.  This is why I recommend having 1-3 canned statements ready to go that broadly apply to all sorts of shit people say.  

It’s not dissimilar to how we coach our autistic sons to fall back on canned responses when they are in uncomfortable social situations.  Because in the moment they may be too flustered or angry or embarrassed but they need a tool to extricate themselves.  

[SKL]

3 hours ago, goldberry said:

Also, I thought with the nose comment discussion, the kid was 12?  12 I think is definitely old enough (if neurotypical) to understand there is a history of dehumanization for a particular race, and because of that some comments should not be made.  It's not really abstract at that age, is it?

Kid is 11 and has some mild delays.  Yes, I am sure some 11yo kids can understand this, but it really depends on the kid.

The other twist is that my daughter is in minority groups herself; she often refers to herself as black.  (She is actually a small part African.)  It means a discussion about historical racist foolishness relating to physical (or other group) differences applies partly to her as well.  And while black kids are allowed to make race-related comments to other black kids, that doesn't extend to other minorities.

She's aware of racism, slavery, etc. but most topics so far have been pretty straight forward - things that were done to one race by the dominant race, for no reason other than race.

[SKL]

In their culture camp, my kids were taught a couple years ago what racism is.  I gather that they were told a statement is racist if the only reason someone said it was because of the other person's color.  Which sounds reasonable, except that it doesn't always work - like the wide nose comment.

[Daria]

On 6/3/2018 at 7:24 PM, SKL said:

Re the kid and the nose comment ... I'm really trying to get at something more basic.  How to explain to kids why the same words are heard differently by different people.  It requires introducing ugly, unfortunate things that do not otherwise come up in their environment.  Obviously they all have to learn it someday.  But bring it up too young, and they may not get the message you're trying to send.  They might get the exact opposite message.  I have seen this happen with other topics.

 

Are you saying that you think that 11 is too young for your children to learn about racism?  That you haven't had conversations about it already? 
 

[Tanaqui]

On 6/3/2018 at 7:24 PM, SKL said:

Re the kid and the nose comment ... I'm really trying to get at something more basic.  How to explain to kids why the same words are heard differently by different people.  It requires introducing ugly, unfortunate things that do not otherwise come up in their environment.  Obviously they all have to learn it someday.  But bring it up too young, and they may not get the message you're trying to send.  They might get the exact opposite message.  I have seen this happen with other topics. 

 

If your non-white children have really not been exposed to racial bigotry, or even microaggressions then I am, honestly, amazed and thrilled at this news! Especially if, as you say, "race relations are not the best" in your area.

But I think it's just as likely that they have and simply don't have the words to talk about it.

[Osmosis Mom]

Race was only part of her abhorrent tweet. She normalized the concept of Muslims as being extremists. Seems we got all caught up in the racist part of her outburst that we forgot that a whole religion was attacked as well including the millions of Americans who identify as Muslims.

Rosanne did blame it on her mental health medications the day after which caused the pharmaceutical company to come out with a statement denying links between them and bigotry and racism.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, Osmosis Mom said:

Race was only part of her abhorrent tweet. She normalized the concept of Muslims as being extremists. Seems we got all caught up in the racist part of her outburst that we forgot that a whole religion was attacked as well including the millions of Americans who identify as Muslims.

 

Thanks for that reminder.  You are absolutely right. 

[goldberry]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

In their culture camp, my kids were taught a couple years ago what racism is.  I gather that they were told a statement is racist if the only reason someone said it was because of the other person's color.  Which sounds reasonable, except that it doesn't always work - like the wide nose comment.

 

I find that a really odd definition. But as Bluegoat mentioned, it may have been an kid level interpretation.

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, Osmosis Mom said:

Race was only part of her abhorrent tweet. She normalized the concept of Muslims as being extremists. Seems we got all caught up in the racist part of her outburst that we forgot that a whole religion was attacked as well including the millions of Americans who identify as Muslims.

Rosanne did blame it on her mental health medications the day after which caused the pharmaceutical company to come out with a statement denying links between them and bigotry and racism.

 

I have wondered about this drug thing though - not so much with Roseanne who is a complete nutter and believes all kinds of bizarre and nasty things, but generally.  The assumption seems to be that a drug won't make people say or do things they don't really want to, at some level.  I think a lot of people have experienced tat with booze and being somewhat drunk.  

I'm not so sure it is true with all drugs, or maybe even alcohol in really high levels.  I can think of a few examples of either drugs or disease affecting people's brains in a way that makes them behave in ways they would never want to.  I don't know about Ambien specifically, but the company response seems to me to be almost sidestepping that question.

[SKL]

Yes, I think Ambien was trying to be funny, but just from reading this board, I have heard enough concerning things that I'd really think twice and three times before taking that.

Roseanne may well be a big racist - her ex says so (not that you can believe exes all the time, but you know, lots of people are closet racists).  We all have thoughts we know are wrong and we stop ourselves from saying them, but we don't necessarily manage to erase all of them from our subconscious. 

Just for the record, I have never been a Roseanne fan and I don't personally care if she has a show or not.  Just saying maybe a side PSA about Ambien may be legitimate.

 

[Garga]

On 6/3/2018 at 3:29 PM, Tibbie Dunbar said:

You’d have to be more direct and say something like, "You are already the color of KKK members, Nazis, and school shooters? Maybe I've missed your point?"

 

Ha!  That’s brilliant!