disagreements on homeschool

[luuknam]

Mmm ... I haven't seen any data that supports "So, they may be ahead of their classmates who are a year younger, but behind where they would've been themselves if they hadn't been redshirted." if we're talking about kids in the classroom.  I tend to think many early elementary skills are at least as much developmental as they are due to exposure. 

 

 

I was talking about how they fare in high school, not elementary school, and yes, in a B&M environment. I'm having trouble finding the actual studies since I'm not even sure what search terms to use, but the idea is that if a school, for example, makes every kid take Algebra 1 in 9th grade, then if your 14yo is in 9th grade they'd maybe score at the 45th percentile on a 9th grade math test, but if your 14yo is in 8th grade they'd maybe score at the 55th percentile on an 8th grade math test but only at the 35th percentile on a 9th grade math test because they haven't been exposed to 9th grade math yet (I made up the percentiles since I really don't recall the details from stuff I read years ago and it wasn't as simplistic as this anyway, nor only applicable to math). So, the redshirted kid scores better compared to classmates, but worse compared to not having been redshirted. 

 

Obviously, when homeschooling, you just teach the kid in front of you. 

[nixpix5]

I guess it would depend on what the disagreement was about.

 

I handled 100% of our homeschool decisions, so I know that isn't a help, but I would have welcomed some input on a few things.

This is us. My husband always says "I trust you know exactly what to do. You are better at this stuff than I am" and while I love being able to make all curriculum decisions because I love it, it would be nice to see him feel strongly about something. He loves the kids sharing what they learn with him, and sometimes I have him tag team some experiments and art projects, but that is it.

 

If I felt strongly and disagreed with DH I probably would just pull research and experiences to share with him and do a pros and cons list.

[luuknam]

But he is being compared to kids in his grade cohort, not his age cohort, taking the ACT/SATs. 

 

 

This thread isn't about redshirting though. It's mostly about a husband wanting his wife to homeschool middle and high school when she thinks she doesn't want to, and also he wants her to push academics on the kids, who are still very young. So, the redshirting thing is a tangent, based on an assertion someone made that early academics is bad for boys in the long run. What I was saying wasn't about whether you should redshirt a kid... it was about whether, in the long run, kids score better on tests if you expose them to academics sooner rather than later. 

[luuknam]

it was about whether, in the long run, kids score better on tests if you expose them to academics sooner rather than later. 

 

 

And, to the best of my knowledge, kids will learn more if you expose them to the highest level of academics they can master, rather than if you keep them on their age-based grade level or on the grade level below (the redshirted grade level). That doesn't mean you have to change their grade level on paper, just that you teach them above grade level.

 

(and obviously, there are kids who cannot master grade level or above grade level work)

[luuknam]

And, to the best of my knowledge, kids will learn more if you expose them to the highest level of academics they can master, 

 

 

Btw, not saying that it's always desirable to make sure kids are mastering the highest level of academics they possibly can. Just that I don't think it's terrible to spend a few minutes a day trying to teach a 4yo to read, even if it's a boy, and if he's not getting it, putting it away for a few months and then trying again. Nor do I think it's terrible to wait until a kid is 6. 

[G5052]

I had a plan that went to the end once they were in about 6th grade, but the reality? Things mostly didn't go that way. One of mine really struggled with math and needed a reboot in high school to be successful, we didn't go with the local resources I planned, I didn't teach them myself as much as I planned, and one was far more self-sufficient than the other if it was a class for me.

 

Planning is fine, but the reality is that a lot of it works out as you go. I always made my final choices for the next year in January so I could start shopping and get signed up for things in time. Sometimes it was what I had laid out ahead, and sometimes it wasn't.

 

Both did well on the SAT/ACT and are in college. It worked out.

Edited August 3, 2017 by G5052

[LMD]

I would look at my husband and say 'honey, I understand that this is important to you, it's important to me too. I need you to trust me to do this job that I am called to in the way that works for me and ds. I need your support, and I welcome your opinions, but you need to let me implement it my way.'

 

And don't even discuss middle/high school. Seriously. You will both be different by then. If he starts talking about it just smile and nod.

If learning to read asap is important to him, just tell him you are - by reading lots of quality lit, beginning phonics slowly etc. You have good reasons for what you are doing, be confident in them. If you're nervous and unsure, perhaps he feels like he has to intervene?

 

My dh can be an overbearing pain sometimes, but he trusts me with homeschooling. All the decisions are mine, though he does give his opinion and has priorities that I try to respect.

[Arcadia]

Anyway learning to read does not have to involve sitting down. My DS12 learn to read by sprawling on the carpet or bed and swinging his legs like a pendulum. My DS11 learn to read while walking around the house. So both my kids learn to read while being in a state of constant motion.

 

As for planning, I'm still in the midst of finalizing my DS12's 8th grade plan.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Arcadia

[stutterfish]

Nm

Edited August 8, 2017 by stutterfish

[Bluegoat]

This thread isn't about redshirting though. It's mostly about a husband wanting his wife to homeschool middle and high school when she thinks she doesn't want to, and also he wants her to push academics on the kids, who are still very young. So, the redshirting thing is a tangent, based on an assertion someone made that early academics is bad for boys in the long run. What I was saying wasn't about whether you should redshirt a kid... it was about whether, in the long run, kids score better on tests if you expose them to academics sooner rather than later. 

 

I really still can't see where you were going with it though.  The fact that two kids the same age, but different grades, would have a difference in scores on grade based tests, seems pretty irrelevant to whether it was a good idea to start them early in academics or not. 

 

All the evidence I have ever seen is that early academics do not correlate to success in school over the long term, success in career, and I can't see how it would end up producing more educated adult citizens.

[idnib]

If he's having anxiety about how advanced things are or are not, do you think he might read a book like The Smartest Kids in the World? It talks about how kids are educated in different countries with very different paradigms, and kids in Finland are doing a bit better than kids in South Korea even though they start later, let younger children play more, and are more relaxed about it in general. There's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.

[Arcadia]

If he's having anxiety about how advanced things are or are not, do you think he might read a book like The Smartest Kids in the World? It talks about how kids are educated in different countries with very different paradigms, and kids in Finland are doing a bit better than kids in South Korea even though they start later, let younger children play more, and are more relaxed about it in general. There's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.

If OP's husband has anxiety about academic performance, Finland might cause more anxiety than help.

 

"Inside the country, however, educators are worried. PISA scores fell in 2009 and 2012 (the next results will be published in December). Data suggest the slide began around the turn of the century. Children of immigrants tend to score worse, but native Finns’ scores have dipped, too. The problem is worst among girls from non-Finnish-speaking households and native boys: one in eight 15-year-old boys cannot read at the level necessary to keep studying.

 

A separate problem is that when Finnish children are in school, they are surprisingly glum. About half of 14- and 15-year-olds feel that their teachers do not care about their lives. Finnish pupils are more likely than the average OECD student to say that their classroom environment is bad for learning. Tuomas Kurtilla, the country’s ombudsman for children, says 20-25% of Finnish girls aged 14 and 15 receive school counselling." https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21698679-europes-top-performing-school-system-rethinks-its-approach-helsinking

 

ETA:

"Overall, Finnish children slipped from third to fifth place in natural sciences and in mathematics they dropped from eighth to 13th place.

 

Among the leading academic test-scoring countries, Finland is the only one that has seen test results of fourth graders decline for four years in a row.

 

Vettenranta and Hiltunen said that the TIMSS study shows that the differences between fourth graders' abilities can be seen before they even start school.

 

Young pupils who have solid reading and math skills before the first grade do much better on the exams than those with weaker basic skills. Children's' educational careers begin at home even before entering the school system.

 

Adequate learning materials and resources at home - as well as parents' attitudes toward learning - have significant effects on a child's development at school, the TIMSS researchers said." https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/report_finlands_fourth_graders_maths_and_science_skills_in_decline/9324042

Edited August 4, 2017 by Arcadia

[regentrude]

At this point, I would completely refuse to give a thought about high school. It makes no sense to decide now since you have no idea how things will go. If your DH brings up homeschooling high school, just nod and say "yes, honey, let's talk about that in a few years". There is absolutely no need to discuss this now.

 

As for teaching the 4 y/o to read: what if you spend a few minutes a day? Either he responds and eats it up, or he balks, and then you'll try again in a year.

 

 

[displace]

Imo, not discussing my concerns right off the bat would be more stressful (year after year) than just straight out saying, "I'm excited to spend time with DC during elementary but I have no desire at the moment to homeschool further." If you're open to considering it in the future you can bring it up now too.

 

But to leave it hanging for years, with your DH expectating to homeschool throughout and you already not having that desire, I'd mention it.

 

Also, as stated, homeschooling is mostly between the parent doing it, and the DC. If he wants to teach reading, let him go for it. Perhaps your DH learned to read young. Many gifted kids learn to read young (which is different than redshirting). At a young age it's not imperative to teach a child to read, even a gifted child, and having a home full of educational opportunities is more important.

 

You both have reasons or thoughts about why you want X or Y. If you can find overlap that meets each person, you have a good answer.

 

BYW, I totally agree to try and view your value differently than just financially. If you want to see your value financially, look up a cost analysis of what your DH would need if you weren't there (full time nanny with personal full time tutoring), who works seven days a week. If you could find such a person, I bet s/he would cost a lot of money! You are contributing that much to your family financially. Plus, mommy love is worth everything in the world!! :)

[Lecka]

Maybe this isn't a huge insight to others, but I read a parenting book "how to talk so kids will listen, how to listen so kids will talk" that has a section about how to discuss hypothetical situations.

 

A hypothetical situation might be "wouldn't it be great if we had an early advanced reader."

 

So it is possible to agree with the idea "yeah there are things about that that would be really cool."

 

Agreeing it would be cool doesn't mean you have to DO it. Or at least doesn't mean you have to force it to happen by any means necessary.

 

There is a big range between discussing "wouldn't this be cool" and discussing "this must happen no matter what with no exceptions and no adjustments."

 

Ten years ago we used to drive around and look at "dream houses" and I would get upset by looking at houses where I felt like "but all our values and choices are NOT taking us in a direction of affording some of these houses." I thought my husband literally wanted exact houses.

 

Now ten years later -- it turns out my husband is a reasonable person. But looking at dream

houses does help him think about what he wants. He can get ideas from it. It is like imagining possibilities to him.

 

I thought he was saying what he really wanted, and I didn't know it was an imagining/thinking process for him.

 

Now I see this more and my comfort level for discussing hypothetical situations is pretty good. Because it is how my husband thinks through things, but it is not something where he is looking for a final decision or extreme commitment.

 

So I think -- if your husband is overall pretty reasonable -- maybe indulge him and just take things a lot less seriously/literally.

 

If he tends to want to hold things over your head or browbeat you into things, or browbeat or mock you if you want to change your mind about things as conditions change, then that is different.

 

But for me, my husband is actually a nicer person than that, but I have been browbeaten and mocked in the past, and so that is why I felt like I was being pinned down on things. But my husband turns out not to do stuff like that.

 

And also, for whatever reason I did not tend to think about hypothetical situations in that "just thinking" way, I thought about things like "we are deciding/planning." But that is something where I can adjust to have a conversation and understand it is "just talking."

Edited August 4, 2017 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Also it would make my husband feel like it was difficult to talk to me; that I would get upset over pretty innocuous things, because I took some comments too seriously, that he meant just as, well, more than just making conversation, but much less than an extremely serious "you must do this, we must commit to this" kind of comment.

 

Edit: so I would really tend to read a lot more into things than what he actually said.

 

And, we went marriage counseling about communication styles about 5 years ago now.... it was a good thing for us.

 

There was a lot on my husband's side but on my side I can definitely clarify some things by asking questions or just discussing things instead of assuming he is making a pronouncement.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Lecka

[marbel]

Imo, not discussing my concerns right off the bat would be more stressful (year after year) than just straight out saying, "I'm excited to spend time with DC during elementary but I have no desire at the moment to homeschool further." If you're open to considering it in the future you can bring it up now too.

 

But to leave it hanging for years, with your DH expectating to homeschool throughout and you already not having that desire, I'd mention it.

<snip>

 

I agree with this.  I don't think the "smile and nod" approach is best. It seems condescending, for one thing.  (Silly husband, I'll just pretend I agree; you'll forget about it soon enough.)   But also, it implies agreement, and you don't agree. 

 

I'd say something more like "I understand you want to commit to homeschooling through the end.  Right now I am not interested in that, but it's too early to look so far ahead anyway.  We have no idea what our situation will be in [whatever number of years]. Let's focus on the elementary years first, and we'll keep assessing as we go along."

 

Also remember that homeschooling high school doesn't necessarily mean that mom and/or dad teaches everything. There are lots of ways to outsource courses.

 

Lots of people commit (in their minds, and/or loudly and publicly) to homeschooling till the end, and don't, for various reasons. People do change their minds. But I wouldn't start off pretending to agree if that's not the case. 

[Scarlett]

Oh this takes me back. To the days when my now xh was insisting that our 9 year old was going to go to public school come fall. It was very upsetting to me and to ds.

 

I got a lot of good advice on this board about how to approach it. It came from opposite sides of the street and all down the middle. Ultimately though it was an individual thing.....my particular circumstance and what was best for all of us.

 

I agree you need to stop worrying about the future. Embrace today, smile sweetly at your Dh and say, 'I want to enjoy my time with my littles and I can't commit to anything 10 years down the road'. The end.

[Carrie12345]

My husband and I were kind of the opposite (once I got him to accept homeschooling at all.)  I get 100% say in academics because he doesn't have the desire to research or implement, so that's good.  But he was of the "one year at a time" mindset, while I absolutely wanted to be a lifer (unless some unexpected event necessitated a change.)

 

We've had LOTS of conversations about it over the years, and many of them have been uncomfortable and/or challenging.  But the conversations HAD to be had, and not just glossed over.  It was only fair that each of us knew where the other stood, and that we agreed to hold off on long-term decisions until they needed to be made.

 

Don't avoid the uncomfortable conversations.  They just get harder when they resurface, regardless of who is "right" or "wrong".

[Arcadia]

I agree with this. I don't think the "smile and nod" approach is best. It seems condescending, for one thing. (Silly husband, I'll just pretend I agree; you'll forget about it soon enough.) But also, it implies agreement, and you don't agree.

I agree and it can cause confusion too. I told my husband about a class I signed my DS12 up for a few days ago and he forgot. Yesterday he asked me about it because of the credit card charge and he doesn't associate the charge with the class signup.

 

I think OP is having difficulties homeschooling with her youngest daughter underfoot. My kids were sedentary at home as toddlers (other than Lego mess to clean up) but my brother's daughter isn't (she pulled every drawer open regardless where she is) so I can still relate to the exhaustion.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/654028-school-and-baby/

[freesia]

I agree that it is way too early to do more than muse.  My anxiety also often manifests in trying to figure out the future.  Try to "take those thoughts captive" and not let yourself ruminate.  My guess is that you may be the one bringing this up with dh,not the other way 'round, right?

 

When I started out, I thought we'd homeschool through 3rd grade, but here we are entering 12th.  Somewhere along the way it just happened.  And some of the folks who were determined to homeschool until the end changed their minds and put their children in school. 

 

Folks are right when they say that you just don't know what will happen and while it's okay to have a lose plan, there is no way you can know for certain and it certainly is not worth the marital strife over something so far in the future.  Chances are, if you really don't want to teach ms and hs when it comes, your dh will recognize that it's not right, too.  Things do tend to pile up when you are teaching upper grades and have littles and, in a good marriage, the spouse will recognize that it is too much to do if the teaching spouse does not want to do it.  Even if s/he does, many, many gung-ho non-teaching spouses have brought up the offer just b/c of seeing the amount of work it can be. 

 

With regard to reading--I was a first and second grade teacher and have 4 kids, only one of whom was reading at 4.  There was no difference in reading level ability by fourth grade and all my older ones are in the 90th percentile on reading standardized test whether they took off in reading at 4 or 7.  In a classroom, early readers can be tracked and maintain a reading lead that later readers without reading households have a hard time catching up to.  None of that applies to homeschooled kids.  It's much easier and faster to teach a child who is ready to read than one who would rather be playing.

 

The only homeschool advantage is that  it can be time consuming teaching reading and other subjects to a non-reader and having your child reading leaves more time for cuddling babies.  (Although I nursed through many reading lessons. . . )

[desertstrawberry5]

it sounds like you want your husband to agree with your far off future plans, and he wants you to agree to his, with little room for compromise. agreeing to disagree is not something that either of you are comfortable with? I think you win this one by default, because he can't *make* you homeschool. If you have talked about it and he knows your stance, he can prefer that you homeschool, but it only takes one signature to enroll the kids in school. as others have mentioned, if you feel like he is trying to force you into this, or force a commitment from you, or that he will mistreat you if you disobey him, then that is a bigger problem. 

 

In the past, when we have had disagreements, we handled it..badly. He would try to dictate what I should do off of assumptions. Because he had zero interest or involvement in what we were actually doing, he had no idea what we were doing, or how. He would have an idea, assume I had never considered it, and come to me with demands that I found insulting.

One day he came home and told me that he wanted to send our small children to a tutoring center for math and reading because "they are really important, and we want to make sure they are learning." I heard "You are messing our kids up and you can't do this, because you are stupid, a failure and bad at life. also you have no idea what you are doing, no common sense, and you are putting no effort into this", which is not exactly the same thing. someone at work had suggested sending our kids to a tutoring center, and it sounded like a good idea to him. He thought it would take a little pressure off me and give me some "free time" (it wouldn't. It would cost a bunch of cash we didn't have, and give me an hour drive with a car screaming baby and an hour or two wait in a boring waiting room with said screaming baby. oh, and no car :confused1: ) 

 

In retrospect, I should have calmly assured him that I was aware that reading and math are important, that is what we were working on, and that our 4 and 7 yos did not need tutoring in basic skills  :rolleyes: but I would keep that in mind should it become necessary in the future. But I didn't do that. I completely freaked out at him, leaving him feeling like I was super unreasonable and he could never, ever be involved in any way. 

 

I don't recommend this method of negotiation. 

 

 

 

 

[Lecka]

I can see for us, we would end up talking about our experiences in high school, what we think is valuable for teenagers, etc. There is a lot of food for thought without having to make a commitment. This is where -- if the conversation is more like this, there is no need for me to shut it down because I think that my husband is pressing for a commitment.

 

Edit: it is hard to know, what the context is. For us -- if I said some things here, the context would be ----- my husband is just talking and I am thinking he is really serious.

 

If he is trying to get really specific and detailed, I agree it is too early.

 

But we have had conversations about some of our own high school experiences, things we want to be the same for our kids, things we want to be different for our kids, etc, and our oldest is only 12. And we have some consensus. It is broad and vague, but I think it will be good background when we are actually at a point of making choices.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Lecka

[Mimm]

He defers to me. He feels strongly about homeschooling but would love for our kids to attend a Sudbury style school. I could unschool and he'd be fine with it. I grew up homeschooling but he's got more radical ideas about it than me. It's fine because he talks me down when I'm freaking out about it sometimes. It's not fine because when I have actual concerns he can be dismissive of them.

 

But ultimately, the way homeschooling is done is my call. I welcome his input, but in the end, I'm the one making it happen on a daily basis. No way I'd let him pressure me into pressuring a four year old to read. In your position, I would have a serious talk about who gets to be in charge and tell him that if this is going to work, he can't micromanage you, or demand you homeschool beyond what you want. It's all well and good to say you want to homeschool through high school, but you never know what's going to happen. Take it year at a time.

 

That's one mistake I made. I wanted to put one of my kids in public school and he put his foot down and it was the wrong decision.