Why no vehicle barriers in London?

[Katy]

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone, and isn't too early to ask the question.  Kiddo expressed concern that we would get hit by a car when we walk across a bridge to our favorite park practically every day when the weather is nice in summer.  I said that can't happen here, the concrete barriers protect us.  Kiddo asked why they don't have those barriers in London.  Is it a liability difference?  We have steel or concrete barriers practically everywhere. 

 

There are barriers blocking the farmer's market, bridges, and federal buildings that would total a car if you tried to go through them.  There are even fake ones in front of Walmarts (I only learned they were fake when a woman managed to drive into a store in Oklahoma and the photos showed the barriers were hollow plastic-like material). I suppose these started springing up more after the Oklahoma City bombing, but those in stores are mostly to protect pedestrians from old people who should no longer be driving and drunk drivers.  Do the same non-terrorist related problems not exist in London, or is there just not the same liability at play?

[Guest]

Didn't we start with the barriers because of the Oklahoma City bombing?

 

For this year's Boston Marathon, they filled dump trucks with sand and blocked all of the side streets.

 

ETA I see that you mentioned Oklahoma City.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Fifiruth

[Lawyer&Mom]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3719403/authorities-ruled-out-measures-to-install-bollards-to-protect-pedestrians-on-london-bridge-just-24-hours-before-terror-attack/

 

There certainly are some in London. I anticipate more will appear soon.

[Laura Corin]

In normal times, bridges aren't much of a risk in London.  The average car speed in London is under 20mph due to congestion.

 

ETA: I used to catch the bus from London Bridge when pregnant with Calvin.  I could have beaten the traffic on foot most days.

 

I remember concrete barriers in front of landmark buildings during the IRA bombings in London, but terrorist tactics have changed.  It's hard to see how it would work to put barriers in front of all public buildings in London, given that the city is built on an ancient urban rather than a suburban model.  This is a picture (copyright Conde Nast) of the area where the knife attacks took place:

 

http://cdni.condenast.co.uk/639x426/a_c/borough-market-london-conde-nast-traveller-22aug16-alamy_639x426.jpg

Edited June 5, 2017 by Laura Corin

[kroe1]

We do not have any barriers where I live in the US.

[Butter]

Because 99.9% of the time they wouldn't help anyway or are not needed or appropriate.

 

Not all places in the US utilize lots of barriers either.

[SporkUK]

London has barriers in some places - some intersections have a lot - but, like Laura Corin said, it's hard for them to be placed in many sections for many reasons - many streets are just too narrow, how the roads bend, avoiding other services already in the ground, and the amount of people. Westminster bridge gets so many people - it's right by a tube entrance,  a popular tourist spot for pictures and close to a lot a popular tourists sites, Parliament is on one side and a major hospital is on the other...honestly, I worry about trampling when I've gone through there and the idea of barriers - I could see issues of people getting trapped either on the pedestrian side trying to escape or pinned against it if a car went through a crossing.  With London's experience of the IRA and more, and how quickly police responded to both of the recent attacks, I'm not sure much more can be done with the environment to protect people without causing other issues and vulnerabilities. 

 

We had a marathon through my city the day after the latest attack. I know bigger cities use metal barriers for protection but my road - an A road that has highway traffic - just had traffic cones down the middle with one side open to traffic and one closed for runners. I had the passing thought on the morning of the risks in that but really it's been fine for decades and once the tail truck past the road was open which wouldn't be possible if they put more up. 

 

The city I'm in, a couple hours by train north of London, has metal barriers on main roads at the corners and near crossings - and I regularly see them bent up so they seem to be working. Young adults jump over them all the time though so the part of the attack where they got out with knives would be hard to prevent  (and there is an issue of making them any taller as then kids can't see over or around them to cross safely at crossings - some studies show high barriers and plants can make a crossing more risky). I'm not a driver so I might miss them but I've noticed and seen a lot of requests barriers to be put up recently to stop quads and bikes on certain footpaths as they were knocking kids over than for car on roads. Thinking of major buildings in the area... some have those round concrete bollard type things and I know there are parts where metal ones can be put in to close roads or spaces off for events. The city centre is mostly pedestrianized so there are fewer cars which helps but there aren't really many barriers - that would prevent emergency services and other needs getting in & make it hard for shops to get stock - it's all marked by differences in road material. 

[Lady Florida.]

We do not have any barriers where I live in the US.

 

Neither do we. In fact, I'm not even sure what the OP is talking about. I'm going to have to google to find out.

[MEmama]

Neither do we. In fact, I'm not even sure what the OP is talking about. I'm going to have to google to find out.

Me neither. I've never seen anything like what she describes. ??

[Farrar]

They're definitely not everywhere even in high security places in the US. If I really wanted to mow down pedestrians on Memorial Bridge in DC, which I go across relatively often (it goes from the monuments to Arlington Cemetery and has heavily pedestrian traffic during tourist season), then there aren't usually barriers there. There were for awhile due to construction, but I don't think there's anything now. Not that I would, obviously.

 

[chiguirre]

We've had DUI drivers who plowed into a Mardi Gras crowd in NOLA and a crowd in Times Square in New York. It doesn't even have to be terrorism to wreak havoc. 

[Arcadia]

Neither do we. In fact, I'm not even sure what the OP is talking about. I'm going to have to google to find out.

Something like the bottom picture of page 13 of this PDF by California Dept of Transport. In some areas, it is concrete instead of steel and also higher.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/design/lap/livability/docs/Caltrans_Bridge_Rails_and_Barriers.pdf

 

ETA:

Golden Gate Bridge photo showing the barrier between pedestrians and vehicles

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Walking_on_the_Golden_Gate_bridge_in_San_Francisco_72.jpg

Edited June 5, 2017 by Arcadia

[Laura Corin]

Something like the bottom picture of page 13 of this PDF by California Dept of Transport. In some areas, it is concrete instead of steel and also higher.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/design/lap/livability/docs/Caltrans_Bridge_Rails_and_Barriers.pdf

 

ETA:

Golden Gate Bridge photo showing the barrier between pedestrians and vehicles

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Walking_on_the_Golden_Gate_bridge_in_San_Francisco_72.jpg

 

We also have barriers on fast roads like that.

[bettyandbob]

They're definitely not everywhere even in high security places in the US. If I really wanted to mow down pedestrians on Memorial Bridge in DC, which I go across relatively often (it goes from the monuments to Arlington Cemetery and has heavily pedestrian traffic during tourist season), then there aren't usually barriers there. There were for awhile due to construction, but I don't think there's anything now. Not that I would, obviously.

Now I'm going pay attention to pedestrian traffic on Memorial Bridge. In 35 years of DC driving I haven't noticed.

[Lady Florida.]

Something like the bottom picture of page 13 of this PDF by California Dept of Transport. In some areas, it is concrete instead of steel and also higher.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/design/lap/livability/docs/Caltrans_Bridge_Rails_and_Barriers.pdf

 

ETA:

Golden Gate Bridge photo showing the barrier between pedestrians and vehicles

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Walking_on_the_Golden_Gate_bridge_in_San_Francisco_72.jpg

 

Ah, okay. We have them on some bridges and causeways but not all. In fact, most around here don't have them. Sometimes they're concrete and sometimes metal, but they're usually only on bridges that get a lot of pedestrian traffic. Until the recent increase in people doing causeway walks as a form of exercise there weren't many that get pedestrian traffic, and the increase hasn't been all that big.

[Farrar]

Now I'm going pay attention to pedestrian traffic on Memorial Bridge. In 35 years of DC driving I haven't noticed.

I think I'd need a truck though... the curb is extra tall. There are barriers on the Key and on 14th, I think - though you can't even walk on the 14th St bridge.

[Caroline]

I think I'd need a truck though... the curb is extra tall. There are barriers on the Key and on 14th, I think - though you can't even walk on the 14th St bridge.

Is the 14th street bridge the one the airplane hit?

[bettyandbob]

Is the 14th street bridge the one the airplane hit?

Yes

[Katy]

The barriers I mean are of a few types.  This is similar to the kind on my local bridge to the park: https://smithmidland.com/images/highway.jpg This picture is a temporary type for construction. I'm pretty sure the one on our bridge was poured in place because one of the sections has clearly been patched before, but they look very similar.

 

There's also a tall metal, plastic, or concrete sort of post that lets pedestrians through but stops cars.  Wikipedia says they are called Bollards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bollard

 

They are also sold in the USA as "Post guards" or "traffic posts."  Here's a site that sells them:  https://www.postguard.com/

 

Even in rural areas these are in front of stores that are frequently targets of criminals (pharmacies, big stores like Target, banks, liquor stores, or places like Malls where there is a lot of traffic and pedestrians.  They keep cars out of shopping areas and pedestrian malls, and in areas where there is dense enough population to need emergency access sometimes there are gates, the poles will retract into the ground, or there's only two lanes open that are blocked by a police car on the days when vehicles are banned (local farmers market).

[Katy]

I bet now that I've brought them up, those of you in the US who've never noticed them will see them everywhere.

 

ETA:  In a lot of "refreshed" city locations, cities have replaced them with decorative planters made of stone, concrete, or steel that stop cars but look charming. In the city we live in now they have been replaced with alternating planters, trash cans (round, made out of concrete, decorated with cast iron), and thick retro-looking streetlights.  There isn't a place downtown where a crowd would gather where you could also drive anything wider than a golf cart through the barriers without totaling your vehicle.  Perhaps this is the sort of thing you notice when one parent was a police chief and the other works in a federal building, but I've always seen them everywhere.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Katy

[Ausmumof3]

Not in Aus anyway.

 

In Melbourne you basically queue in the middle of the main roads for trams! It's scary.

[Arcadia]

There are many examples in below link that is commonly seen where I am. We have the "saber tooth" tire punching ones here as well.

https://deltascientific.com/gallery/

[Caroline]

I am confused as to where these things are? I mean, our Target store has big red concrete balls in front of it. But most of our roads don't have barricades between the sidewalks and the cars. I was eating at an outdoor restaurant the other day and a car could have taken out all the people at the restaurant pretty easily.

 

Laura, if you are reading this, do you feel different now than during the time when the IRA was working in England? I remember IRA attacks, but I live in the US, so certainly I don't remember as vividly as you do.

 

I also remember after a plane hijacking, my best friend's mom saying that she thought my best friend's dad might cancel their European trip. He didn't.

 

And just for full disclosure, my DH was in London Saturday. He was there for business and was in that area a couple of hours earlier. He did answer his phone when I called him at midnight to check on him. He was also supposed to fly to Paris a couple of years ago right after an attack. He waited a week to go because the company decided the Paris office should be given some time to recover.

[Tanaqui]

I live in NYC, and while we have barriers in some places, we don't have them everywhere.

 

We have them in front of some very high profile locations, and we have them in some places where cars do tend to crash - my corner store is surrounded by them because there's a crash there at least once a year.

 

And some buildings that aren't particularly high profile or with a high crash-rate will have big concrete benches or planters, which serve the same purpose but are a little disguised, or else they have signs noting that the sidewalk cannot bear the weight of a vehicle and will collapse.

 

But mostly, our barriers are parked cars or nothing.

[Katy]

I am confused as to where these things are? I mean, our Target store has big red concrete balls in front of it. But most of our roads don't have barricades between the sidewalks and the cars. I was eating at an outdoor restaurant the other day and a car could have taken out all the people at the restaurant pretty easily.

 

Laura, if you are reading this, do you feel different now than during the time when the IRA was working in England? I remember IRA attacks, but I live in the US, so certainly I don't remember as vividly as you do.

 

I also remember after a plane hijacking, my best friend's mom saying that she thought my best friend's dad might cancel their European trip. He didn't.

 

And just for full disclosure, my DH was in London Saturday. He was there for business and was in that area a couple of hours earlier. He did answer his phone when I called him at midnight to check on him. He was also supposed to fly to Paris a couple of years ago right after an attack. He waited a week to go because the company decided the Paris office should be given some time to recover.

 

Yes, that is exactly what those big red concrete balls at Target are for.  In the case of stores it may be more to protect the store from someone driving into it & stealing cash or electronics than protecting pedestrians.

[Guest]

Yes, that is exactly what those big red concrete balls at Target are for.  In the case of stores it may be more to protect the store from someone driving into it & stealing cash or electronics than protecting pedestrians.

 

I see them in a ton of places around here. I can't think of a public government building without them now that you mention it. NASA over in Clear Lake has them for sure. Police departments have them. As you mention higher end store, and some gun stores, have them. I just took them as a matter of course after OK City. Even parks had them before that to keep people from off-roading through or just causing general mischief- the wooden bollards with the metal cables running through.........

[Laura Corin]

Laura, if you are reading this, do you feel different now than during the time when the IRA was working in England? I remember IRA attacks, but I live in the US, so certainly I don't remember as vividly as you do.

 

 

I'm sorry, I'm not quite up to discussing this at present.  Political and personal issues.  I would find myself breaking board rules almost immediately and it also wouldn't be good for my head at the moment.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Laura Corin

[KarenNC]

Cyclists are worried that bollards reduce the distance between them and cars. 

 

It's entirely possible that reducing cycle safety can cause less terror but an equal number of casualties over a year.

 

Risk analysis has to take into account multiple issues of safety, not just the most terrifying.

There's discussion in our closest large city about using some sort of physical barrier--bollards, planters, etc-- to create protected bike lanes. http://plancharlotte.org/story/protected-bicycle-lanes-bikeways-through-uptown-charlotte

[Caroline]

I'm sorry, I'm not quite up to discussing this at present. Political and personal issues. I would find myself breaking board rules almost immediately and it also wouldn't be good for my head at the moment.

I completely understand. Thank you.

[JFSinIL]

I suspect folks in England will become like plane passengers now - more apt to be aware and step in to stop an attack.  And more police - visible or undercover - in public areas that seem likely targets.

[JFSinIL]

Yes, that is exactly what those big red concrete balls at Target are for.  In the case of stores it may be more to protect the store from someone driving into it & stealing cash or electronics than protecting pedestrians.

 

We had some of those robberies on the $$ part of Michigan Ave (Chicago) a few years back. It does happen.

Edited June 6, 2017 by JFSinIL

[Guest]

I suspect folks in England will become like plane passengers now - more apt to be aware and step in to stop an attack. And more police - visible or undercover - in public areas that seem likely targets.

These guys have had much more severe weapons than have been smuggled onto planes (to my knowledge) since 9/11 though. Short of civilians carrying a gun, which isn't going to happen there, I don't know how the average person could do anything against assailants with large knives except run (and tell everyone else to do so? ?? It sounds like people HAVE been reporting suspicions, but that's it's own legal quagmire I'm sure on how much it takes before authorities and actually arrest someone.

[Guest]

Another question- are there discussions of arming all police there, or under certain terror levels? Am I correct that not all policemen carry guns? Of course in the news when this happens all we see are pictures of police with tactical rifles, but I know that's like the equivalent to our SWAT teams at that point. Are regular officers equipt with weapons like Tasers or anything since they don't carry guns?

[Laura Corin]

 Short of civilians carrying a gun, which isn't going to happen there, I don't know how the average person could do anything against assailants with large knives except run (and tell everyone else to do so? ??

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40149836

 

Another question- are there discussions of arming all police there, or under certain terror levels? Am I correct that not all policemen carry guns? Of course in the news when this happens all we see are pictures of police with tactical rifles, but I know that's like the equivalent to our SWAT teams at that point. Are regular officers equipt with weapons like Tasers or anything since they don't carry guns?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom