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Feeling guilty over 15 yr olds punishment


Janeway
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15 yr old, who got through most school years without much problem, has been giving me problems this year. I am so frustrated over it. And as the year went on, I kept trying to map out what he was doing. I used every single idea suggested by anyone here. This is not an issue of just being confused or not knowing how to manage his time or me expecting to much or the material being too hard.

 

This year, he only had biology, algebra 2 with trig, and outsourced history and English. He also did piano, karate, and a leadership class. 

 

He kept falling behind on biology. Algebra 2 seemed on track, but biology was not. I got a few reports from his outsourced academic class that he was failing to turn in his school work. Then son would claim he did it, only for me to find out he did not do it. THEN, at some point after New Years, I reduced the chapters I was requiring for biology in hopes that he would just do the biology. Then, in March, I took more chapters off. I mapped out for him what he had to complete to be done by this weekend. He still was not doing the work. I told him if his school years worth of work was not done by this weekend, he would lose his computer. At this point, end of March, I give him a test for algebra 2 before moving on to trig. You see, when he does his work, he refuses to show his work. And this is where he has an ASD style meltdown when he gets told he has to show his work.  So while I keep asking him to show his work, he just will not do it. On the test, he flunked. I mean, he got to the second or third problem, could not do it, stopped working and refused to go on. At this point, I wanted to drop trig for this year and pick it up next year, and go back through and review all 12 chapters. This worked for the first two chapters and then he put his foot down and said no, he would not do it. Actually, he never said no. He would just walk to his room and go to bed. He is over 200 pounds and I have 4 other kids to take care of, so I cannot be in his bedroom 24-7 trying to get him to do anything. 

 

At this point, I reduced biology way more than I was comfortable with, however, what I reduced it to still meant covering everything the local public schools would cover, so whatever. However, in May, I looked back and realized he had skipped some chapters in the middle. So he is twice as much behind than I thought he was. 

 

In my fantasy world, we would have done all of the biology. I do not mind skipping over the chapters that just cover the kingdoms, but wanted to do the rest. Nope, did not happen and will not happen. And in algebra, he would do the chapter reviews for each chapter. Also did not happen. He finally went through the test I had given him and made corrections. Fine. But, back to biology. Oh wait..let's back up a couple weeks...

 

He said he had so much work for the outsourced class that he did not want to try to do biology and math at the same time. I told him it would be fine with me if he waited and resume biology and math when he finishes the outsourced class, but I expect him to do well with the outsourced class. It is a subject he loves. And it was done first week of May. However, when the grade came out for the outsourced class, he flunked. Even with his lowest grade dropped, he flunked. The teacher suggested some assignments he could do over the summer to raise his grade, but I feel like I cannot even broach that right now. 

 

So all that is left is biology. I reminded him two weeks ago that this weekend is the deadline. I have tried to get him to come out and sit at the dining table to do his work. His younger brother goes to public school and his younger sister does not get up until later in the morning, so it is totally quiet in the house. He would just walk off to his bedroom and not do it. 

 

Now I am looking at his biology. He did chapters 1-3, and then 7-9. He is currently working on chapter 10. I just sit here feeling defeated. To top it off, he thinks he should not have to do chores if his 5 yr old little sister doesn't have to do them. The 5 yr old actually does do chores, without ever arguing. She just does not do what is expected of him at 15 yrs old. 

 

I already modified biology to be only the first half of the book, and even in the first half, dropped 3 chapters. This means he only has 15 chapters to do. But he only has 6 chapters done. 

 

I am so frustrated!!!!

 

If you want to know what he was doing instead, he has been playing the piano. The piano is his current obsession. When he is supposed to be working, he will go in and start playing on that. The thing about the piano is that it relieves anxiety and stress for him so I do not feel comfortable taking it away. 

 

I guess the main reason I feel bad about taking away the computer is that he just came off of being grounded for refusing to do any chores at all. He finally did all his chores and got it back yesterday. Now today, it is gone again. I have NO other punishments to dole out. Nothing. 

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Not only would I not feel guilty about his loss of computer privileges (refusing to study, lying about it, and refusing to chores is a lot of refusing), I would be planning to enroll him in public school for the coming school year.

 

I've raised two sons to adulthood and have two more in middle and high school. I don't homeschool people who lie to me and refuse to study, because homeschooling is a time-consuming and expensive enterprise on my part, and a privilege (as opposed to a right) for my students. They are entitled to an education. If they won't learn here, they can do like 95% of the rest of the nation and go to public school, and it will be on them whether they make the best of it or the worst of it.

 

I do know about hs'ing a disinterested young person with ADHD, as I've done it twice. My second son gave me fits about finishing his work, but at the end of the day/week/semester/year, he did complete it. My third son has ADHD and doesn't always do everything on my schedule, but he is motivated and doing his best. So one was unmotivated and did it anyway, the other is motivated and does it enough...but neither refused to do it, and neither refused to do their chores or follow home rules.

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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Make it easy - tell him that any morning that he comes out and sits at the table with you and shows you he has made progress on the schoolwork, he can have play on the computer that day.

 

My DD16 is really self-motivated and yes, I have to keep on top of her about assignments. She knows that anything she doesn't finish during the week, she will be held accountable for on Sunday afternoon when we sit down to do planning for the next week. For her, "held accountable" means that I keep her phone and Internet access (except for the online class) until she finishes the work. What works best is when I can sit down with her daily rather than weekly. Just sitting next to her reading on my iPad while she is working makes her feel more like we are in this together rather than school work being something I inflict on her.

 

I learned this the hard way with her brother. He responds badly to negative interactions - once he starts a spiral down, he gives up and stops trying. After a couple of failures, I learned he needed my support - just being there while he worked. Which took up the one thing I didn't have a lot of - my time. Sigh.

 

It's hard, I know. And there were no magic wands to wave here. You guys have had a rough year so far. I am hoping things get better for your family over the next few months.

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Hugs and prayers.

 

I have no right answers. But, I would hope that you start thinking of your personal boundaries. Are you going to kick him out of the house at age 18 or are you willing to let him stay at home until he is over 30? Are there parameters for him living at home after he becomes an adult?

 

Also, what are your boundaries for punishment? Are you willing to take the piano away, the computer for longer time periods, food, friends, etc.? Only you can answer these questions.

 

Then, think of all your resources. Is there public school accessible, other family who would take him in, coaches who could help, etc.

 

Bottom line, he only has 4 years until adulthood. He is most likely not going to have a sudden epiphany causing him to finish biology. He has learned that the less he does, the more likely mom will just lower her expectations. He also knows there is nothing much to lose if he does not do what he is told. Perhaps the best thing is just figuring out a path that is most likely to get him minimally employable. Then, he can figure out life when he leaves the nest.

 

You feeling guilty about him not doing what he is told, however, should definitely not be the outcome. Consequences are consequences. I encourage you not to give in.

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I've written a number of times about my challenges with my son during his early teens. We had many, many interactions/confrontations similar to those you've described here. Although, of course, every young person is different, I can say that the only thing that finally "worked" for mine was for me to "expel" him from my homeschooling program. 

 

I reached my frustration threshold on a Friday afternoon when yet another week had gone by without him either finishing his assignments or being honest with me about it. I e-mailed my husband at work and essentially said, "I'm done. He's going to school on Monday morning."

 

We spent the weekend talking through various possibilities, and eventually I agreed to keep him home as long as I was no longer responsible for teaching him in any meaningful way. We enrolled him in a full slate of online classes and put in place very clear rules and expectations regarding how much work he would get done every week and what the consequences would be if he failed to do so. Basically, he had to be on track according to the pace chart for every class and maintain an overall B average with no single grade lower than a B. I was free to log onto the class providers at any point to check his progress. On any weekday on which he had an extracurricular (and he had a lot of those), he was not allowed to go if he was not caught up for the week thus far. (In other words, by Tuesday afternoon, he needed to have at least 40% of the work for each class completed or be able to clearly explain to me why what he had done was the equivalent.) If he had not finished the week's work by 4:00 on Friday afternoon, he was grounded for the weekend. 

 

Both of those requirements had tiny loopholes for activities or commitments from which his absence would be really serious or would negatively affect a group. So, regular dance classes and choir rehearsals were fair game for missing, but dress rehearsals and performances and classes he taught were off limits.

 

In our case, the breaking point hit earlier in the academic year, in mid-October. So, he understood that effectively starting over at that point meant he would need to work well into the summer in order to complete his classes. That was the price he paid for not having me march him down to the closest public school bright and early Monday morning.

 

We made it crystal clear that he was still on probation and that, if either side decided the arrangement wasn't working, that whole marching-to-public-school thing remained a valid option.

 

Full disclosure: I was miserable at first, felt like I had failed and/or that he had rejected me. I had put a ton of time and effort into planning what I thought was an interesting, challenging curriculum thoughtfully tailored to his interests. I felt hurt that he hated it all so much, and I mourned the abrupt end of my hands-on homeschooling,

 

However, he finished that year with good grades, and, most importantly from my point of view, we stopped arguing all the time. He actually started taking an interest in at least some of his schoolwork and some pride in his grades. 

 

I think this worked for three reasons:

  • The expectations, rules and consequences were painstakingly clear. We literally wrote them out and had all three of us review and sign them.
  • My involvement in his schoolwork was limited to administrative tasks, while anything subjective (that could be argued about) was off-loaded to other people. That removed an entire layer of potential for tension, and he owned his efforts and the results.
  • We stuck to our guns regarding consequences, even when it was painful for me to enforce them. After he missed two or three choir rehearsals/dance classes and spent one weekend grounded and computer-less, the tide turned.

The following year, he ended up dual enrolling at the community college and did well enough that he decided he wanted to accelerate high school graduation and apply to college a year earlier than we had planned/anticipated. 

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I think I have suggested this when you talked about your issues before. A student who cannot be trusted to do his work on his own would have to sit down in my presence and do the work under my supervision. I don't understand why you reduce his work load as a reward for not doing the work

I fail to see what the computer has to do with his refusal to do the work - but if that's your currency and you announced it, by all means follow through.

 

But most importantly, I do not understand how he can get away with it repeatedly without you stepping in to supervise that he actually does it.

Edited by regentrude
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How much education have you gotten on ASD/ Aspergers?  It seems like some more education might help you and your family.  Kids with ASD are typically a few years behind their peers in social and emotional development.  If there are executive function issues as well, that will compound the issue.  You cannot punish the ASD out of a person.  You can provide scaffolding for them and help them towards independence.  You can provide boundaries.  But being rigid with an Aspie will absolutely (in my experience) trigger more resistance and rigidity on their part.  So if this boy is 15, he really is more like a 12 year old in some of his development.  Providing him with adequate supervision and support is not coddling.  If you are not able to provide him with the help that he needs then I agree that public school is probably best - hopefully with some supports set up so that he doesn't flounder there as well. 

 

Also - getting advice from people with absolutely no experience or knowledge of some of the special needs involved can back fire on you.  It won't make the situation better.  It will make it worse.  And it won't be the fault of the child with ASD.

 

I get a bit Mama Bear about teens with ASD.  I think that it is a tough age for them and so often is made tougher by adults who should have their best interests at heart. 

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No advice, just empathy.   I have a 15-year-old DS too, and it's really HARD to let them fail and face the consequences when you know they are fully capable of the work.   I have found that my DS does best with schoolwork when he's held accountable and knows he'll be checked daily.   Outsourcing more classes has been good for us too.

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So if I understood this correctly, he's failed everything this year? As in, he did not earn a single credit? Then he'll need to redo all the classes and, for both your sakes, he needs to redo them with an outsourced provider.

 

Since he's on the spectrum, he'd have an IEP in public school which might help address his issues. Geezle has been both happy and successful in public school special ed. After our final, disastrous year homeschooling, this has been both a pleasant surprise and a huge relief. If you were in my ISD, I'd whole heartedly recommend enrolling your ds.

 

But, if I recall correctly, you had a huge fight with your local school? If that's the case, you probably need to look at either a private school that specializes in LDs, enrolling in a neighboring district (this isn't outrageously expensive where I live) or hiring a tutor (I pay $35/hr for a public school special ed teacher to tutor Geezle in the evenings). You might even be able to use Texas Tech or UT Austin's distance high school and just have the tutor look over the work and make sure he's on track for an hour a day. That would be affordable and the credits would transfer to public school if his situation changes. The key is that he want to impress the tutor enough that he will do the work.

 

Another thing to consider is making sure he'll be eligible for disability and job supports if he needs them. Being bright is great but if your social skills and emotional regulation are seriously lacking you still will not be able to hold down a job. ASD can be crippling even if it doesn't affect your IQ. The easiest way to do this is using the public school (either yours if you can find a way to work with them or a neighboring district).

 

You've learned that he needs someone in his face and that someone can't be you. That's pretty common with teenagers. There are some possible solutions, you just need to find one that works for you.

 

Good luck, Janeway! This is hard but you aren't the first spectrum mom who's hoed this row. There is a group dedicated to parenting teenagers with Asperger's. That might offer even better solutions.

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Hugs. I can hear your frustration clearly.

 

My child with ASD is only 12, so feel free to take my experience with a grain of salt.

 

We try to remember the guideline that kids on the spectrum are not as socially or emotionally mature as they "should" be, but tend to behave as if they were around 2/3 to 3/4 of their actual calendar age. So, my 12 yo is socially and emotionally 8 or 9. That is, in fact, a pretty accurate reflection of her abilities.

 

By this metric, your 15yo might be more like 10 or 12 emotionally. He might not be fully capable of pacing himself, dealing with deadlines and frustrations, especially over a period of several weeks. He will also not be emotionally an adult at 18.

 

I still have to sit by my dd every day and make sure she keeps going on her work. She does not yet have the ability to manage it herself, though she is getting better. Your son may need more daily support as well.

 

I think the idea to give daily computer time after work is done is a good one. Having a big consequence for a large chunk of work done or undone, weeks away, could be overwhelming your ds. Giving him a daily workload and daily reward would be much more manageable.

 

Regarding the chores: we've had this battle, too, and it is pure ASD. The rigid thinking and the idea that everything must be perfectly fair, as perceived by the child with ASD, is torture for a parent. You have my sympathy. I don't have a solution, but again, it is a reflection of his disability. It isn't misbehavior in the classic sense, though he will need to learn that expectations for five year olds are different from expectations for teens.

 

Do you have access to ABA, or any sort of autism-specific therapy? Has he had that sort of assistance?

 

Good luck! I know it's hard.

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What works best is when I can sit down with her daily rather than weekly. Just sitting next to her reading on my iPad while she is working makes her feel more like we are in this together rather than school work being something I inflict on her.

 

I learned this the hard way with her brother. He responds badly to negative interactions - once he starts a spiral down, he gives up and stops trying. After a couple of failures, I learned he needed my support - just being there while he worked. Which took up the one thing I didn't have a lot of - my time. Sigh.

 

 

I think I have suggested this when you talked about your issues before. A student who cannot be trusted to do his work on his own would have to sit down in my presence and do the work under my supervision. I don't understand why you reduce his work load as a reward for not doing the work

I fail to see what the computer has to do with his refusal to do the work - but if that's your currency and you announced it, by all means follow through.

 

But most importantly, I do not understand how he can get away with it repeatedly without you stepping in to supervise that he actually does it.

 

Agreed absolutely. That's something I didn't mention in my already lengthy post: The only way anything got done was for me to sit next to my son, be physically present while he was supposed to be working. 

 

I resented it, to be honest, because I felt like it wasn't fair to shut me out of meaningful interaction and teaching but still need me to devote all day every day to sitting there not doing any of the other things I could have been doing with my time. 

 

But it worked.

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My nt Ds at 15 also needed me sitting near all day and checking in on work completed daily. Actually, at 16, things still go better that way. I actually know of no irl teens who don't need almost daily accountability. They may be out there--I'm sure there are some--but not the ones I know.

 

And I also agree not to cut back more when he doesn't complete his work.

 

I would also consider school .

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Same as Jenny, I didn't mention my part in making sure my ADHD and ASD kids got through high school. They didn't study in their room, we were all in the main rooms together, and I really did monitor and check their work every single day. I also resented it sometimes, especially when they'd gone through a bright patch during which they actually were able to be more independent (usually because they were interested in the topic)...it seemed that if they'd done it EVER, they should be able to do it ALWAYS, but that was not the case.

 

I don't blame any parent who is not able to do that, or blame any family if the dynamic just isn't there for the boy to submit to mom's oversight. I think it's really rare for it to work out, honestly. I wish our schools offered more support and better education, but at the end of the day I think that daily accountability, measurable successes, and a good relationship with mom are more important than homeschool academics. I'm thankful I never had to utilize public schools (ours are awful) or see my child moved back one or more grades to be allowed to attend school (due to homeschool credits not being recognized), but I was always ready to go that route if necessary.

 

One way or another, we're going to have a good relationship, if possible, and they're going to learn and graduate.

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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I kept liking the posts of those stating how they had to "babysit" their students. Mine is not on the spectrum, but, I still had to sit with her all day until her schoolwork was finished up until the day she graduated. Otherwise, she would be playing video games. I do not think this is uncommon for homeschool moms.

Edited by Minniewannabe
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Agreed absolutely. That's something I didn't mention in my already lengthy post: The only way anything got done was for me to sit next to my son, be physically present while he was supposed to be working. 

 

 

I've mentioned before that I think home educators underestimate the positive peer pressure induced by being in a class where everyone is working on their biology, maths... together.  It helps to keep things moving forward.

 

My boys were home until they were 13 and 10.  We sat at one big table - they sat at the two ends of the table and I sat in the middle, using my presence to replace that school peer pressure.

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Yes. I am not caving, I just feel guilty.

 

What has helped me in the past were the principles of "Boundaries with Children" by Townsend/Cloud (Book).

 

My guilt feelings evaporated and my son realized that there are consequences to his choices.

 

ETA: When I typed this response I had missed that your son has ASD / Aspergers. The above mentioned resource will likely still be helpful. Also, setting goals and planning together has often made a difference.

Edited by Liz CA
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What has helped me in the past were the principles of "Boundaries with Children" by Townsend/Cloud (Book).

 

My guilt feelings evaporated and my son realized that there are consequences to his choices.

 

That only works if the mother has done her part. Punishing a teen for a situation that the mother helped create by not providing daily oversight is not "establishing a boundary".

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Not only would I not feel guilty about his loss of computer privileges (refusing to study, lying about it, and refusing to chores is a lot of refusing), I would be planning to enroll him in public school for the coming school year.

 

I've raised two sons to adulthood and have two more in middle and high school. I don't homeschool people who lie to me and refuse to study, because homeschooling is a time-consuming and expensive enterprise on my part, and a privilege (as opposed to a right) for my students. They are entitled to an education. If they won't learn here, they can do like 95% of the rest of the nation and go to public school, and it will be on them whether they make the best of it or the worst of it.

 

.

We're dealing with the same thing re: not doing schoolwork, lying, obstinacy, and in our case teen-tantrums that eat up my day. I gave DD15 a warning that she had this spring to shape up or it'd be public school. We registered her yesterday and go for an IEP meeting the 6th. She's mad, but I'm relieved. We homeschool for academic and family-culture goals, so if a kid is no longer willing to benefit academically I figure they might as well be out of my hair and maybe they'll feel compelled to do basic work for teachers at school.

 

We also took away privileges (like you: computer mostly) and it felt like there just wasn't much more leverage we had. I don't feel bad at all, it's just a computer, I never had regular computer time at 15...cause we had one clunky computer for our household and it was mostly for my mom's work. A computer, besides for papers/research, is nice to have but grounding from it really isn't too severe. You're doing the right thing sticking to your guns.

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That only works if the mother has done her part. Punishing a teen for a situation that the mother helped create by not providing daily oversight is not "establishing a boundary".

 

Totally agree.

Clear expectations. Be available for assistance / clarifications. If we planned something that turned out to be too time consuming for the time we allotted, ds could and did on occasion say "can we add a day or two for this chapter?" If I felt it was justified (and not due to his tardiness) I agreed.

 

Clear boundaries and clear consequences explained ahead of time so person knows what to expect and how his behavior will impact what follows. This way I don't feel guilty when something "bad" happens to him but he feels guilty because he knew he had a choice. It helped us to set goals together. Ds felt more responsible to reach those goals as he had a part in it. I also hoped it would teach him looking at material, estimating time for completion and budgeting that time aka time management.

 

I also missed that OP's son has Asperger's when I first responded.

Edited by Liz CA
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I put my DS who was acting like that in PS. I could not provide the supervision he needed since I have other kids who need attention and I will not have a student who won't do his work. As I suspected, he did pretty well in PS this year and is even in a selective, application only advanced program. He didn't have a wonderful time and he's not getting all As, but he's doing well and our relationship has improved. The academics aren't hard for him, but he's had a hard time learning to be organized and deal with deadlines. It has been good for me to not stress about his education in the same way that I used to.  I still feel like I could do a better job in most subjects if he'd cooperate with me, but the fact is that the work that gets done is better than that which doesn't. He's getting most of it done at school because he cares about his reputation and about staying in his program.

 

DS does not have ASD, but he has his own not so dissimilar issues and the school has not made it worse. I think he needed far more structure than my type B personality could enforce. Like your DS, my own does not respond well to punishment. Natural consequences are fine, but punishments are counter productive. Please don't create punishments with a child like this to make yourself feel better or because you think he deserves it. It's all about getting the outcomes you want. DS works better with incentives and he works far, far better when our relationship is good. If I were you, I'd recommend not saving him from the natural consequence which may mean repeating the year, and investing a lot of time in him doing things he likes. My DS likes to go out to coffee shops and talk. He likes to participate in his martial arts, and he likes to work on projects together. If we build him up by doing those things or not restricting him from it, he has a positive attitude that carries over to other areas of his life. With him, positivity breeds positivity. If we come down hard on him with unrelated punishments and withdrawing more positive encounters, he spirals out with all kinds of negativity that he struggles to return from. 

Edited by Paige
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Has he ever had to keep school hours?  Sit him in a communal location where you can see him and have him work a regular schedule with regular breaks.  Know what he has do to in every class and monitor his progress throughout the day.  Clearly, he's not ready to be completely independent and the freedom was too much for him.  If he were in school, he'd have to sit at a desk and work and he wouldn't be able to hide in his room or on his piano.  Sure, give him a long lunch and even a 'music class" to tinker on the piano, but would he really sit at a book and stare without doing anything for 5 hours a day? He doesn't sound like he's ready for independents study.  It's more work for you, but he may need that oversight that he'd be getting in a classroom.  He also may need to know that summer school and taking an extra year to graduate are real consequences too.

 

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I would definitely be looking at school, and more active treatment for the ASD (which may or may not occur at the school). 

 

Are there specific reasons school is not under consideration? Most of us can come up with a long list of problems we have with the local school, but he is having severe problems with homeschooling also. 

 

If he stays home, I agree that the only way things are likely to change is for him to work in a common area with you nearby, and often at his elbow. Figure out just how often you have to check in and keep him on track. It might be every 10 minutes at first. Or it might actually be pretty constant, as in, sit next to him while he works. 

 

Yes, you have other things to do, but we have to teach the students we have. Not all of them can work independently just because we want or even 'need' them to. If they can't get what they need at home, then they have to go to school. That's not a punishment, that's not a failure, it's just how it is. 

 

Even sitting with him for 2-3 subjects per day, totaling 2 hours, would result in a lot more work getting done. He may do better with shorter, more supervised days. The hope is that you move towards being able to walk away for at least short periods, still checking in frequently, and definitely checking work done every. single. day. 

 

That's really not an unusual need for a young teen. Like others noted, in a classroom there is a flow with everyone working on the same thing, and the teacher often giving very explicit instructions: Class, turn to page 169 in the text. Class, complete this quiz, and then copy the notes off of the board. There is a lot of supervision, and a lot of nudging! 

 

It does sound like he has a lot of typical ASD things going on, the most problematic being the tendency to get overwhelmed and shut down. That would probably be my #1 priority to address, with some outside help. 

 

Good luck. 

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