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Updated in #1: United Airlines flight Oversold (?) in Chicago - Violent removal of passenger

Lanny

By Lanny,
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luuknam
luuknam

Right. So if no-one volunteers at $400, or $800, they could've just upped the number until someone volunteered. I'm sure that at some point someone would've thought it worth their while. 

Jean in Newcastle
Jean in Newcastle

I think that it is a shame that people think that they can voyeuristically look at other people's lives just because they had something unfortunate happen to them and ended up in the news.  It has not

ChocolateReignRemix
ChocolateReignRemix

No, United messed up as well.  They did not offer enough compensation to get off the flight, and they ramped up to kicking people off almost immediately.  That is all on United.   And anyone flight

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

After reading the letter my first thought was 'put down the shovel'. Just ridiculous.

 

I just read the letter. What exactly are "evolving facts"? 

 

 

Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I’ve included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

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OneStepAtATime

OneStepAtATime

Posted
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I got home awhile ago. The CEO of United Airlines has now issued a very nice statement. God only knows why they couldn't do that early on Monday morning. That would have lessened their PR disaster.

Yes, here is the new statement.  Big of him.  

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/04/11/full-text-united-ceo-munoz-apologizes-flight-3411-pledges-review/100336992/

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creekland

creekland

Posted
Posted

I got home awhile ago. The CEO of United Airlines has now issued a very nice statement. God only knows why they couldn't do that early on Monday morning. That would have lessened their PR disaster.

 

I just went to read his statement after reading your post.  I agree it is a very nice statement now, presumably made after Mr. Munoz has discovered the real facts aren't necessarily what he was told by employees trying to cover things up.  I'm glad they are taking full responsibility.  I'm glad they are changing their ways.  I'm glad they are able to LEARN from this incident and correct things.

 

Assuming this all actually happens (I expect it will, because money talks), then the best possible outcome is coming out of it all - and it shows that one single guy (and oodles of backers from those catching it on video to those shaming the company) CAN make things better by basic Civil Disobedience.

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Murphy101

Murphy101

Posted
Posted

here's a report from another person on the plane - who was close enough to hear the whole thing. a teacher on a trip with students - they ended up getting off because of this fiasco.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/teacher-on-united-flight-took-students-off-plane-after-incident/ar-BBzJbF0?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

 

the airline were rude in the way they announced the need for four people to leave a fully loaded plane. that turned a lot of people off. then things got bad.

Give that teacher a raise!ðŸ‘

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OneStepAtATime

OneStepAtATime

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I just went to read his statement after reading your post.  I agree it is a very nice statement now, presumably made after Mr. Munoz has discovered the real facts aren't necessarily what he was told by employees trying to cover things up.  I'm glad they are taking full responsibility.  I'm glad they are changing their ways.  I'm glad they are able to LEARN from this incident and correct things.

 

Assuming this all actually happens (I expect it will, because money talks), then the best possible outcome is coming out of it all - and it shows that one single guy (and oodles of backers from those catching it on video to those shaming the company) CAN make things better by basic Civil Disobedience.

I sincerely hope this does bring about change for the industry as a whole regarding handling situations like this.  Rules should be rewritten.  This should never have happened.  There were plenty of ways to handle this without beating up and forcibly removing a passenger.  They needed seats on an airplane.  That's it.  This isn't rocket science.  No one should be forcibly removed from a plane, especially in such a way as to cause injury, simply because the airline needs a couple of extra seats for employees.  

 

I also think the CEO should resign.  He handled things really poorly right out of the gate.  If United wants to try and salvage this, Munoz should resign.  

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ChocolateReignRemix

ChocolateReignRemix

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Posted

I just went to read his statement after reading your post.  I agree it is a very nice statement now, presumably made after Mr. Munoz has discovered the real facts aren't necessarily what he was told by employees trying to cover things up.  I'm glad they are taking full responsibility.  I'm glad they are changing their ways.  I'm glad they are able to LEARN from this incident and correct things.

 

Assuming this all actually happens (I expect it will, because money talks), then the best possible outcome is coming out of it all - and it shows that one single guy (and oodles of backers from those catching it on video to those shaming the company) CAN make things better by basic Civil Disobedience.

 

I don't believe for one second that the new statement is based on having better information.  This is purely a reaction to his stock pricing dropping, United getting eviscerated on social media, and angry reaction to the video in China (United's growth market).

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Lanny

Lanny

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somehow- I think the no one on the jury will care what smear tactics the airlines used against the passenger.  I doubt it would change their minds about what they did.

 

 

they had previously bumped a passenger before they boarded anyone.   a "partner" airline could be United itself - if this was united express. it could be pilots and f/as.  it sounded like it was crew for one plane.  so in total - they bumped/deplaned five paying passengers.

 

there is involuntarily bumping - which is for someone who has NOT boarded the plane when no one will voluntarily make space.  (united's offerings really weren't very good.)

and there is refusal to transport  - re: the passenger is already seated ON the plane and kicked-off.  airlines are legally NOT allowed to do that to make room for employees.  the only time airlines are allowed to kick off a seated passenger to make room for someone else is tsa agents. NOT airline employees.  an already disruptive passenger isn't  the same thing as what happened here.   they kicked these people off - refused to transport - because they were making room for airline employees.

 

someone on the airline end screwed up by NOT taking care of space for them before the flight was boarded - and they handled it spectacularly badly.  now, the internet is mocking them up one side and down the other.  laws were broken on united's end.

 

About the first line quoted above...  You would not believe what Attorneys for an Airline will do, to crucify someone they have killed in an accident, when they are preparing for a trial and trying to make a settlement.   When the ignorant-incompetent-reckless pilots of an American Airlines Boeing 757 flew their aircraft into one of our local mountains on 20 December 1995  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_965

 

A bunch of people from the first Brick and Mortar school my DD attended (K4, K5 and First Grade) were killed on that flight.

 

The lawsuit was in Federal Court in Miami FL.  The Judge told the American Airlines Attorneys to stop trying to blame 3rd parties, that they were only there for the Settlement phase. That was extremely embarrassing for American Airlines...

 

It is like after a girl or woman is raped.  The Defense attacks the victim.  In this case, they will do everything they can to attack the victim.   That's normal.  Sad, but normal...

 

It would be interesting to know who the deadheading employees were. Pilots, Flight Attendants, or some other category.   I can  easily understand circumstances in which an airline would need to get  Pilots or Flight Attendants to another city. That is extremely common.  Fortunately, airlines do not normally bring goons in to remove passengers from their aircraft.

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OneStepAtATime

OneStepAtATime

Posted
Posted

I don't believe for one second that the new statement is based on having better information.  This is purely a reaction to his stock pricing dropping, United getting eviscerated on social media, and angry reaction to the video in China (United's growth market).

I agree.  And actually it was probably a PR person who wrote it or advised him on what to say.  They are trying to salvage what they can.  Based on the responses yesterday I seriously doubt he is deeply concerned for the man in question.  He is worried about his job and the rapid drop in stock prices.

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catz

catz

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Posted

LOL - I have gotten several e-mails from Delta today.  I think they're trying to cash in.  Hope it works for them!  :lol:

 

CEO should have issued that letter within 12 hours of the incident.  Glad he was kicked in the pocket book, but feeling zero love from letter #2.

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gardenmom5

gardenmom5

Posted
Posted

That one is a gem!   :lol:

 

southwest's twitter post was "southwest.  we beat our competitors.  not you."

 

 

I just went to read his statement after reading your post.  I agree it is a very nice statement now, presumably made after Mr. Munoz has discovered the real facts aren't necessarily what he was told by employees trying to cover things up.  I'm glad they are taking full responsibility.  I'm glad they are changing their ways.  I'm glad they are able to LEARN from this incident and correct things.

 

Assuming this all actually happens (I expect it will, because money talks), then the best possible outcome is coming out of it all - and it shows that one single guy (and oodles of backers from those catching it on video to those shaming the company) CAN make things better by basic Civil Disobedience.

I think it's entirely the pushback and mocking they're getting was unexpected.

 

I think it's purely about damage control to stop the mocking - not necessarily that they learned anything other than they created a PR disaster.

 

I sincerely hope this does bring about change for the industry as a whole regarding handling situations like this.  Rules should be rewritten.  This should never have happened.  There were plenty of ways to handle this without beating up and forcibly removing a passenger.  They needed seats on an airplane.  That's it.  This isn't rocket science.  No one should be forcibly removed from a plane, especially in such a way as to cause injury, simply because the airline needs a couple of extra seats for employees.  

 

I also think the CEO should resign.  He handled things really poorly right out of the gate.  If United wants to try and salvage this, Munoz should resign.  

 

united went against rules.  re: they can only involuntarily bump passengers before they've boarded.  once they're on board - they can't bump a seated passenger for an airline employee.  pretty sure that is a FAA rule.

passengers said the gate agent/supervisor who was trying to get people to take their garbage deal was pretty snotty about the whole thing that made people even less likely to take it.

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creekland

creekland

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Posted

I don't believe for one second that the new statement is based on having better information.  This is purely a reaction to his stock pricing dropping, United getting eviscerated on social media, and angry reaction to the video in China (United's growth market).

 

Oh I agree that cost is his main issue (money talks!).  But if the facts hadn't supported the internet, I don't think he'd have changed quite so much.  (Like if the guy weren't a doctor or had been drunk and fighting back, etc.)  I think it's a combo of things.

 

Had the guy just gotten off the plane and filed his own lawsuit - nothing would have happened.

 

Had the other passengers not taken videos - nothing would have happened.

 

Had the world not gotten behind this issue (including the stock value drop) - nothing would have happened.

 

BECAUSE it all did, I think he's now sincere in wanting to fix it.

 

I don't think it's any one thing (esp since the stock value had been coming back up since it's low post event).  I think it's a combo.

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creekland

creekland

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Posted

I agree.  And actually it was probably a PR person who wrote it or advised him on what to say.  They are trying to salvage what they can.  Based on the responses yesterday I seriously doubt he is deeply concerned for the man in question.  He is worried about his job and the rapid drop in stock prices.

 

But the stock was coming back up in value.  It had dropped 4% (one billion).  It was back "up" to only dropping 1.1%.  Investors look long term and were seeing a bargain, so were buying.  If it had been only money, they could have weathered it.  Human attention span is short.  Run some sales and tickets will get sold again because folks love a bargain.

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Guest

Guest

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Posted

I agree.  And actually it was probably a PR person who wrote it or advised him on what to say.  They are trying to salvage what they can.  Based on the responses yesterday I seriously doubt he is deeply concerned for the man in question.  He is worried about his job and the rapid drop in stock prices.

 

What sucks is even if the board asks him to step down he'll most likely walk away with millions due to his contract. It's infuriating. But it's how it works. 

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creekland

creekland

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Posted

ps  I'm still not flying United... but that's because this is only one incident of many I've heard about.  But it's a start, and again, if any other airline were doing similarly with sheeple getting off if told to do so, well, I bet that changes now.  What that guy did helps us all.

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted (edited)

Mr. Munoz's comp agreement for anyone who is interested: https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=5478847&privcapId=257948

 

I asked dh (because he knows way more about this stuff than I do)  if there's away to find out any golden parachute agreement and he wasn't sure, but said CEO competition is so thick practically everyone has one. 

 

ETA: meaning competition to get good CEO's is so heavy, not competition within 

Edited by texasmom33
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shawthorne44

shawthorne44

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Posted

Oh I agree that cost is his main issue (money talks!).  But if the facts hadn't supported the internet, I don't think he'd have changed quite so much.  (Like if the guy weren't a doctor or had been drunk and fighting back, etc.)  I think it's a combo of things.

 

Had the guy just gotten off the plane and filed his own lawsuit - nothing would have happened.

 

Had the other passengers not taken videos - nothing would have happened.

 

Had the world not gotten behind this issue (including the stock value drop) - nothing would have happened.

 

BECAUSE it all did, I think he's now sincere in wanting to fix it.

 

I don't think it's any one thing (esp since the stock value had been coming back up since it's low post event).  I think it's a combo.

 

He is a pretty sympathetic guy.  I think anyone reasonably behaved would have had people on his side.  But, I think we could all relate to him.  He was an ordinary guy just sitting there.  Something about having his bare belly showing for all the world as he is being dragged made me cringe and feel for him.  

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bethben

bethben

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Posted

Poor guy, the news media has done their due diligence and dug up all kinds of dirt on the man who was dragged off the plane.  So, United Airlines drags him down the aisle and ABC news drags him through the mud.  Both places should be punished at this point.  What does it matter if this man has a sordid past?!?!  Does that make it all OK because he's not a complete innocent?

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/chicago-united-express-lambasted-man-dragged-off-plane-46720980

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Murphy101

Murphy101

Posted
Posted

I would like to see due diligence on the CO and tons of his history published. Given what some people will do to get a ceo job, it makes me wonder what could be found about him.

 

Go too it you investigators. Find the dirt on Munoz and put it out for the world to see.

No kidding. Where is this so-called "due diligence" of the CEO, the airline crew, the cops...

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Lanny

Lanny

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Pregnant women and families with young children or babies should get priority as well. I read a comment from a woman traveling with a baby and toddler that tried to do everything possible to make it a smooth trip only to get bumped.

 

Yes, here they get priority and are allowed to board the aircraft early.

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Ravin

Ravin

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I just read the letter. What exactly are "evolving facts"? 

 

That's the process that happens in between something actually happening and being witnessed, and it being presented in court when someone is sued or charged.

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Guest

Guest

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Poor guy, the news media has done their due diligence and dug up all kinds of dirt on the man who was dragged off the plane.  So, United Airlines drags him down the aisle and ABC news drags him through the mud.  

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/wireStory/chicago-united-express-lambasted-man-dragged-off-plane-46720980

 

Perhaps an influential Disney (who owns ABC News) shareholder also owns some United Airlines stock..........

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

That's the process that happens in between something actually happening and being witnessed, and it being presented in court when someone is sued or charged.

 

So like the timeline of forming a defense? 

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OneStepAtATime

OneStepAtATime

Posted
Posted

Let me see if I can link this article on another recent United incident.

United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler - Los Angeles Times

https://apple.news/Axw4KvrGoQCC4Hs5SeZ14yA

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sitting between the arguing couple must have been super relaxing.   :glare:

 

United really does need some serious training in customer relations.  

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gardenmom5

gardenmom5

Posted
Posted

Let me see if I can link this article on another recent United incident.

United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler - Los Angeles Times

https://apple.news/Axw4KvrGoQCC4Hs5SeZ14yA

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

they're not going to be winning any awards for customer service anytime soon .. .

 

I have a friend who travels extensively for business - and is permanently upgraded to first class due to his mileage.  I need to find out what airline . . .

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

Let me see if I can link this article on another recent United incident.

United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler - Los Angeles Times

https://apple.news/Axw4KvrGoQCC4Hs5SeZ14yA

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Wow. I guess he's relieved he wasn't beaten at least. How sad it that, when that's the positive of a customer service relationship! 

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OneStepAtATime

OneStepAtATime

Posted
Posted

Apparently a lot of United frequent fliers are cutting up their United MileagePlus credit cards and posting images of the diced up cards. The program is apparently quite lucrative for United.  

 

http://fortune.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-credit-cards/

 

I'm really curious what this will cost the company overall, financially and otherwise.  

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Guest

Guest

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Posted

Apparently a lot of United frequent fliers are cutting up their United MileagePlus credit cards and posting images of the diced up cards. The program is apparently quite lucrative for United.  

 

http://fortune.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-credit-cards/

 

I'm really curious what this will cost the company overall, financially and otherwise.  

 

Oh my! Yeah, we used to have one of those cards. I think the membership was $450 a year. But dh stopped traveling as much and got tired of United's crappy service so now he flies South West whenever possible and we cancelled our membership in 2016. That $450 a year (assuming it hasn't gone up) per person cancelling will add up fast! 

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gardenmom5

gardenmom5

Posted
Posted

Apparently a lot of United frequent fliers are cutting up their United MileagePlus credit cards and posting images of the diced up cards. The program is was apparently quite lucrative for United.  

 

http://fortune.com/2017/04/11/united-airlines-credit-cards/

 

I'm really curious what this will cost the company overall, financially and otherwise.  

 

fify.

 

;)

 

and it's going to cost them whole lot more than it would have if they'd just given decent incentives to get volunteers.  or what it would have cost them to charter a lear jet to get them there.

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gardenmom5

gardenmom5

Posted
Posted

oh, it just get's better all the time.  united may be better off falling on their sword right now.

 

apparently - in 2014, in a *federal* filing . . united *promised* federal regulators that ticketed customers are guaranteed a seat . . .

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/united-promised-regulators-ticketed-passengers-are-guaranteed-seats/ar-BBzJLPS?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

 

 

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Seasider

Seasider

Posted
Posted

I don't believe for one second that the new statement is based on having better information. This is purely a reaction to his stock pricing dropping, United getting eviscerated on social media, and angry reaction to the video in China (United's growth market).

Sadly I agree. It's probably just a new set of spin doctors who've come in to try to handle the mess. I imagine a PR crisis consulting team charges a pretty penny. In my imagination, anyway.

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creekland

creekland

Posted
Posted

Let me see if I can link this article on another recent United incident.

United passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler - Los Angeles Times

https://apple.news/Axw4KvrGoQCC4Hs5SeZ14yA

 

Yes, it's stories like these and plenty more that have put me off from flying United... They do not handle "issues" well.  Now I'm wondering if there will be a class action suit as more folks take notice they they didn't have to put up with what they did if already boarded.

 

And... as reported in various places, United isn't even #1 with numbers of forced bumps (though I've no idea how many had already boarded the plane).  I'm sure other airlines are taking notes as this all plays out.  Dr. Dao really did many of us a great service with his Civil Disobedience - even if that wasn't his original intent.

 

From the above link (which is worth reading in its entirety if one wants to see more of how United routinely handles issues):

 

Fearns said three different members of the crew on his middle-seat, economy-class return to L.A. apologized for how he was treated in Hawaii. But they said they were unable to do anything.

He’s now considering a lawsuit against United — and he certainly has the resources to press his case.

I asked if he’ll ever fly United again.

Fearns could only laugh. “Are you kidding?â€

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creekland

creekland

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Posted

Oh my! Yeah, we used to have one of those cards. I think the membership was $450 a year. But dh stopped traveling as much and got tired of United's crappy service so now he flies South West whenever possible and we cancelled our membership in 2016. That $450 a year (assuming it hasn't gone up) per person cancelling will add up fast! 

 

$450 for just FF membership?  I thought most are free and only cost if you want Club Level or something, but as I've said before, we haven't flown United since 2006, so I don't know about theirs.  We only belong to Southwest's at this point in our lives (and it's free) as we don't travel on other single airlines enough to make it worthwhile.  With Southwest we get a fair number of free flights.

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