asking for help

[maize]

If my husband were spending 35-40 hours a week watching TV and not equitably contributing to raising his kids I really wouldn't much care what he agreed to or not.

OP's dh does not sound like a healthy, fully functional adult. Depression (as you suggested) is a possibility, as is ADHD; there could be other physical causes as well--sleep apnea comes to mind. At the least, he is leading a nearly 100% sedentary life, which has negative impacts on brain function.

 

How much ability OP has to influence his health habits and medical care I don't know. I'm in a similar marriage as my spouse struggles with chronic mental health difficulties on top of a number of physical disabilities that have severely limited his contribution to the household. I have pushed hard for certain things--medical care, medication (I manage it and make sure he takes it) individual and couples counseling, and most recently a full blown campaign to get him out of bed (he was averaging 12 hours in bed on week days and 16-20 on weekends) and physically active. To be honest I am in many ways playing more of a parental role than a spousal role to him, but it is the reality of living with his particular disabilities and conditions. I'm not bashing him--I can honestly report that he puts more effort into getting through each day than most adults I know. But just demanding that he step up to the plate and carry his share when he appears lazy would be completely ineffective. Getting apropriate help and treatment, providing scaffolding and supports, and a whopping dose of my own motivation when the motivation function in his own brain isn't working properly are needed.

 

I physically haul the guy out of bed on many days...

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by 1234

[maize]

I don't think he is the least bit ADHD. I think he doesn't have a lot of self-discipline in many areas, but really it's a choice. He controlled his weight and exercised regularly for 15 years when he was in the service, but once that external motivation was removed, he stopped doing either. I think he developed some bad habits several years ago when he had undiagnosed sleep apnea for a couple years and was always exhausted, and now he doesn't see a problem with what he does (or at least, isn't willing to admit there's a problem) and so doesn't care to change. He is very hard-headed.

 

I do not think he is depressed.

External structure and motivation, as in military service, can somewhat compensate for executive function deficits. I am very ADHD and loved the military environment for that very reason.

 

His brain was probably a lot more functional with all that physical activity.

 

If you could motivate him to do one thing right now I will hazard a guess that daily exercise would make the biggest difference. A desire to watch endless hours of TV suggests to me a brain that is functioning sluggishly and seeking the easiest form of stimulation. Get that brain and body functioning better and the desire to sit and vegetate may disappear.

[rebbyribs]

I ended up getting an IUD and figuring that I can stick it out a few more years as long as I don't have to go through pregnancy and the postpartum period again.  My mom watched the kids during my appointment.

 

It's not that my husband can't change, but I cannot make him change. Asking him to step up has just not made a lasting difference (it's good for some sulking and 1-2 days of doing the dishes).  

[Catwoman]

If my husband were spending 35-40 hours a week watching TV and not equitably contributing to raising his kids I really wouldn't much care what he agreed to or not.

It's very easy to say that, but not so easy to do. Is she really supposed to haul the television set out to the curb one morning after her dh goes to work and when he gets home, treat him like a toddler and say, "Bad dh! No more TV for you!" Because I really don't think that's going to be an effective method of getting him to want to pitch in more around the house.

 

I do think he needs to spend more time with the family and less time watching TV, but I don't think he needs to be 100% deprived of the one thing he really enjoys doing when he has free time to himself, like after the kids go to bed and Caedmyn is in another room reading (or whatever.)

 

The TV isn't the problem. The time is the problem. He needs to learn to manage his time so he is more involved with his children and his wife, and that should still allow him an hour or two of TV time every night.

 

I guess I just don't see being mean as a viable solution, and taking the TV away from her husband is something he will view as being mean and spiteful. It will make him angry, not cooperative, and I wouldn't blame him for being upset. I wouldn't do that to a child, either.

 

I like Jean's idea of starting with one small thing and working from there. She has to get her dh onboard with the idea of helping her, and it sounds like he also needs to learn how to better relate to the kids. I don't think there is an overnight solution, but that it is going to take time, consistency, and effort.

[Plink]

When was the last time he had a sleep-study for his sleep apnia? It might be time to see the doctor again. Something as simple as a dirty filter in his machine could mess up his breathing and sleep patterns, causing the extreme lethargy you are describing.

[maize]

 

I guess I just don't see being mean as a viable solution

 

I actually think that sitting and watching TV for hours on end while your spouse runs the household alone is a pretty mean thing to do; some meanness in return might be entirely justified, if not necessarily effective.

 

I'm not above using strong-arm tactics though when I can't find anything else that works. 

 

Some marriages are going to have dysfunctional bits because some brains have dysfunctional bits and normal functional relationship behavior doesn't work  :sad:

[Catwoman]

I actually think that sitting and watching TV for hours on end while your spouse runs the household alone is a pretty mean thing to do; some meanness in return might be entirely justified, if not necessarily effective.

 

I'm not above using strong-arm tactics though when I can't find anything else that works.

 

Some marriages are going to have dysfunctional bits because some brains have dysfunctional bits and normal functional relationship behavior doesn't work :sad:

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't justify taking her dh's TV and getting rid of it. It doesn't sound like she has consistently tried to get him to change. It seems like she gets him to help her, but doesn't follow through by reminding him to continue to help when he either forgets or gets lazy.

 

Also, it sounds like the kids enjoy watching some TV as well.

 

 

Edited to add -- I'm not assuming the dh is depressed or that he is suffering from any form of mental illness. From what Caedmyn has described, I'm viewing him as being a stubborn and lazy man whose wife has let him get away with not helping her for years, so he feels entitled to sit around and watch TV rather than get more involved with taking care of the kids and working around the house.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Catwoman

[maize]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can't justify taking her dh's TV and getting rid of it. It doesn't sound like she has consistently tried to get him to change. It seems like she gets him to help her, but doesn't follow through by reminding him to continue to help when he either forgets or gets lazy.

 

Also, it sounds like the kids enjoy watching some TV as well.

 

 

Edited to add -- I'm not assuming the dh is depressed or that he is suffering from any form of mental illness. From what Caedmyn has described, I'm viewing him as being a stubborn and lazy man whose wife has let him get away with not helping her for years, so he feels entitled to sit around and watch TV rather than get more involved with taking care of the kids and working around the house.

You seem to be holding the wife responsible for what you perceive as laziness on the husband's part?

 

She's not being consistent enough in enlisting his fair contribution to the household.

 

She's letting him get away with it.

 

And yet you are opposed to a practical step such as getting rid of the TV.

 

What, precisely, do you think the wife :should: be doing to prevent her husband from being lazy?

[Catwoman]

You seem to be holding the wife responsible for what you perceive as laziness on the husband's part?

 

She's not being consistent enough in enlisting his fair contribution to the household.

 

She's letting him get away with it.

 

And yet you are opposed to a practical step such as getting rid of the TV.

 

What, precisely, do you think the wife :should: be doing to prevent her husband from being lazy?

Obviously, he is ultimately responsible for not being helpful, but Caedmyn has unintentionally played a part in allowing it to continue by not being more assertive. It's more fun for her dh to watch TV than to do housework, so it sounds like if he can get away with watching TV, he's going to do just that.

 

I think she needs to sit down with him and calmly outline her concerns and frustrations. It sounds like he has been willing to help out in the past, but he has slipped back into his old ways. If that is what has happened, it may very well be because Caedmyn didn't remind him the first time he forgot to do an agreed-upon task or he just decided not to bother helping. He never developed good habits. I think she and her dh need to agree on specific duties for each of them, and then both of them can feel free to remind the other to consistently follow through on those duties.

 

I fail to see how getting rid of the TV will solve anything. It's certainly not going to build a sense of teamwork and cooperation between Caedmyn and her dh, and realistically her dh can watch TV shows and movies on his computer, anyway. Also, Caedmyn can get some time to herself if she lets her kids watch some television, so keeping the TV may have some positives for her, too.

[LucyStoner]

She can't control his behavior.  She can't change him.

 

She can set limits on what works for her and her very busy day.  For me, someone watching something on their computer with headphones works a lot better than having the TV on all the time.  At the minimum, for me, the TV needs to be off when the kids are awake unless it is something they are watching or we are watching together.  

 

There was a brief time in my life, I won't bore you with the details, where I was watching way too much TV, and my husband made the unilateral decision to cut off the TV service and move the TV from the living room to a little room off the garage.  He just couldn't watch me watch TV anymore, and I don't blame him.  I was mad.  But he was right, and I got over it. His reasoning was that in our small home if someone was watching a large screen in the central shared space, that the shared space became dominated by the wishes of one person and the other people who lived there couldn't use the living area for non-TV stuff.  Which is fine for a movie or a rainy day but not hours on end, day after day, of junk entertainment.  In general, TV isn't my thing but it was a time of grief, and I was using it to avoid doing things I needed to be doing for myself.  If I had wanted to restore the TV service, I could have done so, but the truth was I didn't.  Once it wasn't in my cozy living room, it wasn't worth it to me.  I suppose I could have retreated to watching the same crap on my laptop the sudden change helped me get my shit together. 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

Is there is a YMCA you could join?  I mention this for a couple of reasons.  

 

1. Dropping the kids off in the Y childcare room while I worked out, swam or just sat in their sitting area and used the damn WiFi is part of what got me through some of the roughest years with high-intensity kids.  They could climb and run and jump and go crazy in the ball pit and I could get some down time.  

 

2. When my husband had more time one thing we would do in the evenings is take the kids to the Y right after dinner.  We'd take an hour to work out together and the kids would go to the tween center or adventure zone or drop in kid's rock climbing and then we'd do the family swim for an hour.  Bonus:  we'd get the kids washed up and changed into their PJs afterward and drive them home and they'd go right to bed.  The intense activity helped all of us a lot (both of our sons have ASD with many indicators of ADHD, for which we have not felt the need to get them a new dx. My husband has ADHD.)

 

3.  It's someplace he could take the kids to give you downtime at home.  

[Catwoman]

Is there is a YMCA you could join? I mention this for a couple of reasons.

 

1. Dropping the kids off in the Y childcare room while I worked out, swam or just sat in their sitting area and used the damn WiFi is part of what got me through some of the roughest years with high-intensity kids. They could climb and run and jump and go crazy in the ball pit and I could get some down time.

 

2. When my husband had more time one thing we would do in the evenings is take the kids to the Y right after dinner. We'd take an hour to work out together and the kids would go to the tween center or adventure zone or drop in kid's rock climbing and then we'd do the family swim for an hour. Bonus: we'd get the kids washed up and changed into their PJs afterward and drive them home and they'd go right to bed. The intense activity helped all of us a lot (both of our sons have ASD with many indicators of ADHD, for which we have not felt the need to get them a new dx. My husband has ADHD.)

 

3. It's someplace he could take the kids to give you downtime at home.

:iagree:

 

I think that's an excellent idea!

[SparklyUnicorn]

Is there is a YMCA you could join?  I mention this for a couple of reasons.  

 

1. Dropping the kids off in the Y childcare room while I worked out, swam or just sat in their sitting area and used the damn WiFi is part of what got me through some of the roughest years with high-intensity kids.  They could climb and run and jump and go crazy in the ball pit and I could get some down time.  

 

2. When my husband had more time one thing we would do in the evenings is take the kids to the Y right after dinner.  We'd take an hour to work out together and the kids would go to the tween center or adventure zone or drop in kid's rock climbing and then we'd do the family swim for an hour.  Bonus:  we'd get the kids washed up and changed into their PJs afterward and drive them home and they'd go right to bed.  The intense activity helped all of us a lot (both of our sons have ASD with many indicators of ADHD, for which we have not felt the need to get them a new dx. My husband has ADHD.)

 

3.  It's someplace he could take the kids to give you downtime at home.  

 

Yeah, I hate to be a wet blanket, but we tried this and it flopped.  The child care people would call me 10 times during an hour to come do this or do that.  They won't do anything other than make sure your kid doesn't hurt himself.  Maybe for slightly older kids it works, but I mean for babies.  They don't feed, do diapers, don't let the baby cry for any period of time, etc.

 

It was a real bummer!! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

She can't control his behavior.  She can't change him.

 

She can set limits on what works for her and her very busy day.  For me, someone watching something on their computer with headphones works a lot better than having the TV on all the time.  At the minimum, for me, the TV needs to be off when the kids are awake unless it is something they are watching or we are watching together.  

 

There was a brief time in my life, I won't bore you with the details, where I was watching way too much TV, and my husband made the unilateral decision to cut off the TV service and move the TV from the living room to a little room off the garage.  He just couldn't watch me watch TV anymore, and I don't blame him.  I was mad.  But he was right, and I got over it. His reasoning was that in our small home if someone was watching a large screen in the central shared space, that the shared space became dominated by the wishes of one person and the other people who lived there couldn't use the living area for non-TV stuff.  Which is fine for a movie or a rainy day but not hours on end, day after day, of junk entertainment.  In general, TV isn't my thing but it was a time of grief, and I was using it to avoid doing things I needed to be doing for myself.  If I had wanted to restore the TV service, I could have done so, but the truth was I didn't.  Once it wasn't in my cozy living room, it wasn't worth it to me.  I suppose I could have retreated to watching the same crap on my laptop the sudden change helped me get my shit together. 

 

Maybe, but did she actually tell him how she feels?  Did she tell him and he ignored her?  KWIM? 

[caedmyn]

We had a talk last night and I asked him to not turn on the TV until the middle ones are in bed, and to do the dishes every night.  We'll see...

 

There's not a YMCA here.  There are some gyms but DH won't join one.  I've thought about it but decided the extra hassle of getting everybody out the door + the 35-40 minute round trip drive to get there isn't worth it.  I might consider it again next fall for the winter.  The older 2 just started martial arts 2x/week and I've been taking the younger 2 to a park to play while they're at it and then I get a chance to read or walk around the park with the baby.  

[maize]

Can your dh do martial arts with the kids? Some places welcome parents and kids in the same class.

 

Unless he has a job that keeps him up and moving, it sounds to me like his life is 100% sedentary. I suspect things aren't really going to get better with him as long as that continues; the motivation functions of the brain work much better when we have a decent amount of physical activity in our lives.

 

Spark! Is a decent book on the impact of exercise on brain health. Another one on my shelf is Eat, Move, Sleep.

 

Is he using a CPAP machine every night? I'd also look into a repeat sleep study.

Edited April 2, 2017 by maize

[Catwoman]

She can't control his behavior. She can't change him.

 

She can set limits on what works for her and her very busy day. For me, someone watching something on their computer with headphones works a lot better than having the TV on all the time. At the minimum, for me, the TV needs to be off when the kids are awake unless it is something they are watching or we are watching together.

 

There was a brief time in my life, I won't bore you with the details, where I was watching way too much TV, and my husband made the unilateral decision to cut off the TV service and move the TV from the living room to a little room off the garage. He just couldn't watch me watch TV anymore, and I don't blame him. I was mad. But he was right, and I got over it. His reasoning was that in our small home if someone was watching a large screen in the central shared space, that the shared space became dominated by the wishes of one person and the other people who lived there couldn't use the living area for non-TV stuff. Which is fine for a movie or a rainy day but not hours on end, day after day, of junk entertainment. In general, TV isn't my thing but it was a time of grief, and I was using it to avoid doing things I needed to be doing for myself. If I had wanted to restore the TV service, I could have done so, but the truth was I didn't. Once it wasn't in my cozy living room, it wasn't worth it to me. I suppose I could have retreated to watching the same crap on my laptop the sudden change helped me get my shit together.

So you were okay with your dh treating you like a little child and taking your TV away from you?

 

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I don't think that's how spouses should be interacting with each other. Why didn't he discuss it with you first so you could come to an agreement?

 

It's interesting to me that this was okay with you, because I can imagine that if someone started a thread saying that their dh unilaterally turned off their TV service and took away her television, most people would be up in arms about it, and calling him a domineering control freak who was treating his wife like a child instead of as an equal.

 

Obviously, we disagree on this issue, but perhaps Caedmyn will let us know how her dh would react if one night he came home from work to discover that she had taken away his television.

[Catwoman]

We had a talk last night and I asked him to not turn on the TV until the middle ones are in bed, and to do the dishes every night. We'll see...

 

There's not a YMCA here. There are some gyms but DH won't join one. I've thought about it but decided the extra hassle of getting everybody out the door + the 35-40 minute round trip drive to get there isn't worth it. I might consider it again next fall for the winter. The older 2 just started martial arts 2x/week and I've been taking the younger 2 to a park to play while they're at it and then I get a chance to read or walk around the park with the baby.

I'm glad you had a talk with him and that he was willing to not only listen to you, but to agree to wait to turn on the TV until later in the evening and to do the dishes every night. That's a big step in the right direction! :hurray:

 

Now your job is to help him keep those promises by gently reminding him if he starts to lapse back into his old habits -- and he probably will, not to be mean, but because habits aren't always so easy to break.

 

I'm very happy to hear that you and he were able to come to an agreement. It's a great start, and hopefully it will lead to him being even more helpful in the future.

[maize]

So you were okay with your dh treating you like a little child and taking your TV away from you?

 

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I don't think that's how spouses should be interacting with each other. Why didn't he discuss it with you first so you could come to an agreement?

 

 

Ideally, communication would solve all marital difficulties.

 

Real and ideal tend to differ.

 

You seem to be viewing the idea of removing the TV as punitive, but sometimes we need to make decisions out of love and concern for a spouse. If my spouse were diabetic and I got rid of all sugary snacks in the house to help him maintain a healthy diet that would not be a punitive action, even if he were resistant to it. Maybe he needs me to help overcome his own difficulty in disciplining himself to do what is healthy.

 

Seems to me that a spouse who sits on his rear during 90% of his waking hours at home day after day while his partner takes care of five children and almost all household responsibilities can be viewed as treating his wife in a profoundly hurtful and neglectful way--removing a tv to me seems pretty minor by comparison.

 

I have sympathy for the husband to the degree that I do think there may be disorder or illness impacting his behavior; I believe exploring that possibility and supporting him in addressing any underlying issues would be appropriate.

 

I have much more sympathy for the wife who is drowning under much more than her share of their mutual responsibilities as spouses and parents.

Edited April 2, 2017 by maize

[Catwoman]

Ideally, communication would solve all marital difficulties.

 

Real and ideal tend to differ.

 

You seem to be viewing the idea of removing the TV as punitive, but sometimes we need to make decisions out of love and concern for a spouse. If my spouse were diabetic and I got rid of all sugary snacks in the house to help him maintain a healthy diet that would not be a punitive action, even if he were resistant to it. Maybe he needs me to help overcome his own difficulty in disciplining himself to do what is healthy.

 

Seems to me that a spouse who sits on his rear during 90% of his waking hours at home day after day while his partner takes care of five children and almost all household responsibilities can be viewed as treating his wife in a profoundly hurtful and neglectful way--removing a tv to me seems pretty minor by comparison.

 

I have sympathy for the husband to the degree that I do think there may be disorder or illness impacting his behavior; I believe exploring that possibility and supporting him in addressing any underlying issues would be appropriate.

 

I have much more sympathy for the wife who is drowning under much more than her share of their mutual responsibilities as spouses and parents.

I'm not sure why you seem to keep insisting that Caedmyn's dh is either mentally or physically ill. She has told us nothing that would indicate that she suspects any such thing.

 

I don't believe in being punitive with a spouse. I wouldn't want my dh to behave that way with me, so why would it be okay for me to treat him like a naughty child?

 

I'm sorry you have to treat your dh differently due to his mental illness, but in an average marriage where neither person is mentally ill, I think there needs to be equality and fairness, as well as the assumption that the spouse is capable of controlling himself and his actions.

[Catwoman]

Maybe, but did she actually tell him how she feels? Did she tell him and he ignored her? KWIM?

It sounds like she just told him and he has already agreed to help and to watch less TV.

 

I'm not sure why people were jumping to such extreme solutions like throwing away the TV, or assuming that the guy might be mentally or physically ill.

 

I was just thinking he was used to being able to do whatever he wanted, so he didn't bother to volunteer to help. Now that she has asked him directly, he's going to start pitching in.

 

It seems like talking to him was a lot easier and more effective than getting rid of the TV, which would have just made him angry (and rightfully so, I think.)

[maize]

I'm not sure why you seem to keep insisting that Caedmyn's dh is either mentally or physically ill. She has told us nothing that would indicate that she suspects any such thing.

 

I don't believe in being punitive with a spouse. I wouldn't want my dh to behave that way with me, so why would it be okay for me to treat him like a naughty child?

 

I'm sorry you have to treat your dh differently due to his mental illness, but in an average marriage where neither person is mentally ill, I think there needs to be equality and fairness, as well as the assumption that the spouse is capable of controlling himself and his actions.

Her husband is not behaving like a responsible, fully functional adult.

 

Which brings up two possibilities: a) he is choosing to be a lazy jerk who is content to have his wife shoulder the majority of adult responsibilities in the household, or b) something else is going on that is inhibiting him from functioning effectively and responsibly. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and not just assume they are lazy jerks; should b) be the case then no real improvement will happen without addressing underlying issues.

 

You mention equality and fairness: that is precisely what is missing in this scenario. The wife is being treated in a profoundly unequal and unfair way. You have repeatedly attempted to put the responsibility on her shoulders, implying that his neglectful and lazy behavior is due to her failure to remind/nag her husband sufficiently. If you really care about equality and fairness in marriage you would not be excusing the husband and blaming the wife for his failures.

 

Fairness is profoundly lacking in this marriage, and not because of the wife's behavior.

[HTRMom]

You said you go to church. Can you post an ad there - "mother needs help with cooking or baking, will pay." Or ask the pastor if there are any teens or older women who need a small job?

 

My other idea is to say, "I can't cook and get everything else done. On Saturday morning and Wednesday night I'm going to cook and bake. You're going to manage the kids. Ok?"

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Catwoman]

Her husband is not behaving like a responsible, fully functional adult.

 

Which brings up two possibilities: a) he is choosing to be a lazy jerk who is content to have his wife shoulder the majority of adult responsibilities in the household, or b) something else is going on that is inhibiting him from functioning effectively and responsibly. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and not just assume they are lazy jerks; should b) be the case then no real improvement will happen without addressing underlying issues.

 

You mention equality and fairness: that is precisely what is missing in this scenario. The wife is being treated in a profoundly unequal and unfair way. You have repeatedly attempted to put the responsibility on her shoulders, implying that his neglectful and lazy behavior is due to her failure to remind/nag her husband sufficiently. If you really care about equality and fairness in marriage you would not be excusing the husband and blaming the wife for his failures.

 

Fairness is profoundly lacking in this marriage, and not because of the wife's behavior.

If you read her update, she spoke with him last night and he has agreed to wait until later in the evenings to watch TV, as well as to do the dishes every night.

 

And miracle of miracles, he agreed to do it without her having had to throw away the TV.

 

I'm most certainly not excusing Caedmyn's dh. I have already said I thought he was lazy and stubborn. But here's the thing -- she's the one who wants changes, so she is the one who has to be assertive -- and it sounds like she accomplished that last night. And he listened. And he agreed that changes should be made.

 

Of course she is partially to blame for her dh not helping, although blame is too harsh a word. She has always done what needed to be done around the house and with the kids because it needed to be done. I'm sure she is very capable and very efficient, so her dh figured she had it covered. She's a great wife. It didn't really dawn on him to help her on a consistent basis because she didn't come right out and have a serious discussion with him about it. He helped here and there when she asked, but she didn't remind him when he forgot or when he got lazy, so he went back to his old ways. Her only fault here is that she was too nice to him and she set aside her own needs in favor of letting him do whatever he wanted to do.

 

But I don't think she is anything but an exceptionally good wife and mom, and I don't think her dh is anything other than a regular guy who tends to be lazy and hardheaded. I'm not reading anything more than that into this situation. I think if she keeps communicating with her dh, he will probably keep doing the things he has promised to do, and that she will be able to get him to do more over time, once he is in the habit of doing the two things he has committed to doing.

 

I don't think this will be an overnight success, but it does appear that things are already moving in the right direction.

[maize]

I have a question for Catwoman:

 

If it were the wife in this scenario who was spending every evening and most of the weekend vegging in front of the TV while the husband ran the household, prepared the meals, and took care of all the children--all after a full day's work--would you claim that her behavior was the fault of the husband for not asking and reminding and nagging her enough to help?

[caedmyn]

I don't know that he actually agreed...he's not a very direct communicator and he didn't actually say he would do either. I just asked him and we discussed/argued about it for a while. I think he'll probably start doing the dishes, for a while at least. I'm not holding my breath about the TV being left off, but we'll see.

[Catwoman]

I have a question for Catwoman:

 

If it were the wife in this scenario who was spending every evening and most of the weekend vegging in front of the TV while the husband ran the household, prepared the meals, and took care of all the children--all after a full day's work--would you claim that her behavior was the fault of the husband for not asking and reminding and nagging her enough to help?

What's the difference?

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to play a game of "gotcha!" here.

 

Why is it such a big deal to you if we disagree about this?

 

You view the dh as not being a "fully functional adult" who may have mental illness issues or a physical illness and I view him as being a regular guy who goes to work every day and who thinks that's his contribution to the family so he's being lazy and stubborn about helping out around the house.

 

Either way, Caedmyn has been tolerating his behavior for years and now she wants things to change. You seem to think punitive measures will be effective, while I'm suggesting more open communication.

 

Who cares which of us is right? Maybe we're both totally off-base. All we can do is make suggestions and hope something helps Caedmyn. I believe we both have her best interests at heart, and I don't think that arguing with each other is helping her at all.

[maize]

I haven't said anything about punitive measures.

 

I have not known healthy adults who spend that amount of time in front of a TV. I would see things differently if the husband were engaged in hobbies or hanging out with friends; hour after hour of sitting staring at a screen is in my experience usually a symptom of something else.

Edited April 2, 2017 by maize

[Catwoman]

I don't know that he actually agreed...he's not a very direct communicator and he didn't actually say he would do either. I just asked him and we discussed/argued about it for a while. I think he'll probably start doing the dishes, for a while at least. I'm not holding my breath about the TV being left off, but we'll see.

Try to look at this as a positive start. You talked. You think he will do the dishes and you're hoping he will leave the TV off. It's something. You can't expect miracles overnight.

 

But I think you need to work on getting that direct communication with him. Did you come right out and ask him to commit to doing these things for you? I don't think you can leave things open-ended with a person who is used to hedging and getting away with it.

 

I know it's hard for you. You seem so nice. It can be hard to stand up for yourself when you don't like making waves. Do you have trouble asserting yourself with your dh? Do you feel intimidated? Do you have trouble asking people (in general) for what you want? You don't have to answer those questions in this thread -- they are just something to think about.

[maize]

I don't know that he actually agreed...he's not a very direct communicator and he didn't actually say he would do either. I just asked him and we discussed/argued about it for a while. I think he'll probably start doing the dishes, for a while at least. I'm not holding my breath about the TV being left off, but we'll see.

This is kind of what I have been concerned would happen--that he may agree in principle to helping out more but follow through will be limited.

[Catwoman]

I haven't said anything about punitive measures.

 

I have not known healthy adults who spend that amount of time in front of a TV. I would see things differently if the husband were engaged in hobbies or hanging out with friends; hour after hour of sitting staring at a screen is in my experience usually a symptom of something else.

Throwing away the TV is a punitive measure.

 

I don't think we can diagnose Caedmyn's dh's mental health based on how much time he spends watching television. Some people love watching TV. It's quiet and relaxing and it helps them unwind after a long day at work. Could he be doing something else instead? Of course he could. But I think it's a real stretch to assume mental illness based on one piece of information.

[Lady Marmalade]

On the practical side regarding lunches, if your budget can afford it, and he has a way to prepare it at work, I would go down the freezer aisle and buy up some frozen meals for him.  There are definitely paleo-friendly ones out there and it would at least take that one small thing off your plate.  Make sure when you buy them that you show him exactly where they are and what they are meant for.  My DH needs the obvious pointed out to him sometimes, and if I buy something specifically for him for lunch, I need to tell him about it AND show him where it is in the fridge/freezer.

 

As time goes on, as you develop more paleo meals to have at home, get yourself some pyrex dishes and make your own frozen meals that he can take along to work.  I keep five homemade frozen dinners in the freezer at all times for those times that DH needs to grab something to take out of town with him or for when I'm gone and leave him alone for a few days. 

[LucyStoner]

So you were okay with your dh treating you like a little child and taking your TV away from you?

 

I'm glad it worked out for you, but I don't think that's how spouses should be interacting with each other. Why didn't he discuss it with you first so you could come to an agreement?

 

It's interesting to me that this was okay with you, because I can imagine that if someone started a thread saying that their dh unilaterally turned off their TV service and took away her television, most people would be up in arms about it, and calling him a domineering control freak who was treating his wife like a child instead of as an equal.

 

Obviously, we disagree on this issue, but perhaps Caedmyn will let us know how her dh would react if one night he came home from work to discover that she had taken away his television.

Perhaps because we have not typically had TV service or made a regular daily habit of watching TV or even always chosen to have a TV at all, I don't view TV service or the presence of it in one's living room as a given or as a right. We had installed the service while my mother was living with us because she was accustomed to having it and not turned it off right when she left. I don't live alone and sometimes in a family people will disagree about how the shared spaces are used.

 

I don't think that you have a basis to evaluate if my husband was treating me like a child or not based on my post. What you do have at least some basis to evaluate is if, after years of posts and interactions, I strike you as a person who lets anyone treat me like a child. So the mere fact that I am telling you right now "No, my husband was absolutely NOT treating me like a child" should frankly be all the evidence you need that he was not treating me badly or in a childlike way. You also jump to the conclusion that he hadn't talked to me about it. He had, and I was very resistant to hearing out his serious complaints. He had legitimate concerns that I was immobile and that all he was seeing me do was sit and watch. Imagine how difficult that would be for my husband and how worried he was before you jump to specious conclusions without allowing for anything else in your wording. My husband knew me and knew that what I was doing was not normal or helpful for me. He moved it out of the living space to reclaim the space for the entire family but also to help me. Also, it's not like after a week of a bit of binge watching he ixnay-ed the TV. We are talking a sustained period where I was ignoring his concerns.

 

I got married over 15 years ago to someone whom I love and who I know loves me. To someone who consistently puts our family and me ahead of his individual wants and needs. I became a parent nearly 14 years ago and had, at the time this happened, a 6-year-old and an infant who hadn't hit one, and he knew they needed me and my attention more than crap TV did. He also knows me well enough to evaluate how important the TV is to me vs. to depressed me. I didn't choose to live alone where, if I wanted, I could put the TV wherever in the house without any input from him. I did not opt not to have children so that my hours could be wiled away in front of a TV without impacting two little people whose needs need to be met, hell or high water. So when someone who loves me like that, and cares for me like that through many highs and lows reaches his breaking point and concludes that the TV needs to be out of the living room, his desire for it not to be there is more important that my temporary inertia that it needed to be there. It improved my mood and sleep quality almost immediately and even if I had opted to hole up with it off of the garage rather than edge back to the world of the living, at least then the other 3/4 of the household would have no longer been as affected by it.

 

Sometimes when 6/7 members of the OP family are adversely impacted by one person's option to sit and do NOTHING, drastically difficult situations call for drastic responses. Think of it like how one strategy for resetting from a panic attack is to immediately and drastically change the temperature of your body- ice, cold shower, opening the windows in winter, etc.

 

In short, someone's need for help and not having a loud, blaring box in the middle of household crunch time supersedes one person's process addiction. I assume that he has a computer, and probably a phone or other devices he can choose to veg with instead. It's not about controlling his behavior. It's about drawing a line for the space that they all share. It's also a suggestion that I and others have made, not something that anyone can say will work for her family. That is for her to evaluate. But it is what I would do if my husband were suddenly on the couch for 35-40 hours a week and intractable about turning off the TV. I swear that some people treat TV like it is a sacred cow and must be available. It is not and it's presence can be quite enabling.

Edited April 2, 2017 by LucyStoner

[maize]

Throwing away the TV is a punitive measure.

We disagree about this. If it were a decision I were making it would be as a therapeutic not punitive measure.

[LucyStoner]

Throwing away the TV is a punitive measure.

 

I don't think we can diagnose Caedmyn's dh's mental health based on how much time he spends watching television. Some people love watching TV. It's quiet and relaxing and it helps them unwind after a long day at work. Could he be doing something else instead? Of course he could. But I think it's a real stretch to assume mental illness based on one piece of information.

 

35-40 hours of TV week in and out is an addictive behavior, not harmless entertainment.  

 

You have an obese man on a couch most of his home based waking hours.  Two of his children have ADHD (which research proves is genetic in nature and many parents of kids with ADHD also have it to a degree).  He has sleep apnea.  He is withdrawn from his family.  

 

It's not some horrible thing to consider the various health implications.  

 

Unwinding after work doesn't last from 6 PM to bedtime.  Especially not when you have four kids and a wife.  

Edited April 2, 2017 by LucyStoner

[Catwoman]

We disagree about this. If it were a decision I were making it would be as a therapeutic not punitive measure.

That's fine. I don't see the dh as needing "therapeutic" measures, so we won't agree on this.

 

Oh -- totally off-topic -- I just saw in another thread that you're pregnant and the baby is due next month. I'm sorry I never congratulated you -- how did I miss it all this time?

 

Anyway, sorry I'm so late, but CONGRATULATIONS!!! :party:

[maize]

 

Oh -- totally off-topic -- I just saw in another thread that you're pregnant and the baby is due next month. I'm sorry I never congratulated you -- how did I miss it all this time?

 

Anyway, sorry I'm so late, but CONGRATULATIONS!!! :party:

Thanks :)

[LucyStoner]

Yeah, I hate to be a wet blanket, but we tried this and it flopped. The child care people would call me 10 times during an hour to come do this or do that. They won't do anything other than make sure your kid doesn't hurt himself. Maybe for slightly older kids it works, but I mean for babies. They don't feed, do diapers, don't let the baby cry for any period of time, etc.

 

It was a real bummer!!

Quality varies. They won't change babies here, but when they were still little I did that before we went. Everything else though was fine.

[Tanaqui]

You know, Catwoman, I think "depression, sleep apnea, and/or ADHD" is a lot more plausible than "nice guy is deciding to be a lazy, stubborn jerk to his wife". At any rate, I think it's useful to rule those things out rather than just assuming the latter, especially when we know her husband has sleep apnea and has a major risk factor for ADHD - that is, having several close family members with the disorder. (And aren't ADHD and depression comorbid?)

[caedmyn]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

I'm just done. I'll keep bugging him about the TV because I hate it and it's not good for the kids either for it to be on in the living room all evening, but I'll just plan on doing everything else myself and try to hire what help I can find in other areas.

 

And I absolutely, 100% do not believe he has ADHD. If it comes from somewhere, it's probably coming from my dad who has a lot of problems with executive function. But then, I have 3 with dyslexia which is strongly heritable (is that the word?), and I know of no one in either family with it.

[Carol in Cal.]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

My dad was like this, too.  He would make waffles or pancakes for dinner on Sundays, and grill burgers that someone else mixed up on Saturdays, and he felt like that was kind of a lot for guy with a SAHW.  He did putter around a lot, though.  Our house was built in 1910 and never really got finished being a fixer upper while I lived there.   When he retired, years later, he spent two full years working more or less 30 hours per week on it.

 

Dh leans this way, and I do the stuff I mentioned.  Luckily he is pretty distractible.  It's not Ok with me, and I'd rather stuff didn't get done than that I feel like a drudge or slave all the time.  I will never forget looking up from mopping the kitchen floor early in our marriage to see him two rooms away, putting his feet up and reading the TV paper.  I put down that mop and set up some boundaries at that point, or I would have gone nuts.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Carol in Cal.

[maize]

Have you ever sat down and written out everything that goes into running a household with lots of young kids, along with how much time each task can reasonably be expected to take?

 

I might try doing that, then have a discussion about it with your husband and ask him to help brainstorm ideas to make it all work. When I did this (years ago when my fourth child was a baby) It was quite eye opening even to me as I realized that I really needed about 8 extra hours in every day if I were to actually accomplish all the responsibilities on my plate and do them well. No wonder I always felt behind and stressed. It is OK if what works best is to hire outside help, but it can be good for you and especially your dh to see that the current responsibilities resting on your shoulders equate to much, much more than a full time job, and really to more than is humanly possible for one person.

 

Put everything in there--how long to feed the baby x number of times per day, how long to comfort fussy baby, how long to get baby down for nap/bed, how long to change diapers x number of times, how long to prepare each meal, how long to clean up from each meal, how long to supervise children in chores, how long to help children negotiate emotional upsets and arguments, how long to help each child with school work, how long to manage bills/mail/paperwork, how long researching and planning school and extracurriculars, how much driving time, how much time directing children and getting them ready to go out, how long supervising children's bathing and hygiene, how long interacting/helping/nurturing/comforting/reading to littles, how long planning meals, how long organizing and cleaning, how long gathering/washing/drying/folding laundry, how long preatong lunches for husband/spending time with him/supporting him.

 

I'm guessing there is very little downtime, virtually no "off duty" time, and no real margin in your life and that you are working an 80+ hour week every single week.

Edited April 2, 2017 by maize

[bettyandbob]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

I'm just done. I'll keep bugging him about the TV because I hate it and it's not good for the kids either for it to be on in the living room all evening, but I'll just plan on doing everything else myself and try to hire what help I can find in other areas.

 

And I absolutely, 100% do not believe he has ADHD. If it comes from somewhere, it's probably coming from my dad who has a lot of problems with executive function. But then, I have 3 with dyslexia which is strongly heritable (is that the word?), and I know of no one in either family with it.

 

 

In what era do ya'll live? The one that only existed on TV in the 1950s?

 

 

I was in the camp that thought maybe depression could explain you dh's behaving, but "traditional" roles in the face of a lot of issues (dyslexia, many young dc, ADHD, etc) suggests a word many here would find offensive .

[Ausmumof3]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

I'm just done. I'll keep bugging him about the TV because I hate it and it's not good for the kids either for it to be on in the living room all evening, but I'll just plan on doing everything else myself and try to hire what help I can find in other areas.

 

And I absolutely, 100% do not believe he has ADHD. If it comes from somewhere, it's probably coming from my dad who has a lot of problems with executive function. But then, I have 3 with dyslexia which is strongly heritable (is that the word?), and I know of no one in either family with it.

Within these parameters you can possibly still make it work for you. He thinks his job is only to earn the money and do father/son stuff. So you use whatever money is available to get the help you need. If he wants to have the traditional provider role you need to buy the help. It's definitely traditional to buy a certain amount of help in provider type families

 

Sometimes the help is from people you pay, sometimes in the form of time and labour saving devices or precooked meals. My DH would never help with dishes but he happily provides the funds for a dishwasher. He doesn't care if I spend a bit more to buy prepackaged food. (Harder with intolerances but there is generally something you can buy its just dearer).

 

Maybe you can put it like that?

 

I know it's not the ideal but sometimes we have to work with what we have.

 

I'd also be encouraging a whole lot of those father son bonding experiences. Send him away on fishing trips with all the kids. Get the kids some kind of mechanical project he has to help with. It will probably do him a world of good as well as giving you a break.

[Garga]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

I'm just done. I'll keep bugging him about the TV because I hate it and it's not good for the kids either for it to be on in the living room all evening, but I'll just plan on doing everything else myself and try to hire what help I can find in other areas.

 

And I absolutely, 100% do not believe he has ADHD. If it comes from somewhere, it's probably coming from my dad who has a lot of problems with executive function. But then, I have 3 with dyslexia which is strongly heritable (is that the word?), and I know of no one in either family with it.

 

 

Then, I'd do like people have said above.  No asking for permission.  Simply do what YOU want to do when you want to.

 

You married a man who believes in traditional roles and you're having to deal with it.

He married a woman who doesn't, and he'll learn to deal with it.

 

Each person learns to deal with the other person's points of view.  I don't believe you'll change him, so you just need to work with what you have and start actively meeting your own needs in ways that don't involve him.

 

Take the money he earns and hire out the work that he could do for free.  

Ask around about mother's helpers.  

Leave the house at least once a week for a few hours and do your own thing: library, coffee with friend, movie, etc.

 

And don't lift a finger doing man's work.  Tell him whenever any repair or man-job needs to be done and let him deal with it.  If that's the way he wants to divide the work, then let him divide it that way.  Give him a honey-do list.  If he likes the traditional life, then he ought to be expecting a honey-do list of things around the house that need to be fixed.

 

My MIL is always buying new curtains and wanting the house painted different colors.  But she is a woman.  Women don't do that stuff!  Hanging new curtain rods requires tools, so that's man's work.  Painting is man's work.  She never lifts a finger, but will stand there and say, "Richard!  Those curtains need to be hung!"  "Richard!  You need to paint the living room for me this weekend!"  Richard is fine with that.  He grabs the tools and starts working.  And, of course, Richard has never cooked a meal not on the grill a day in his life.  My MIL does that.  They're both ok with the division of labor, but Richard is expected to keep that house in top-condition. And he does.

 

So...if that's what he wants, let him have it.  Start expecting him to do his man jobs.  Tell him you want some rose bushes planted or something.

 

There are ways to work with this frustrating attitude that don't leave you a little nub of a person, but it does mean you'll just have to do what you have to do for yourself and start handing off all man jobs to him.  

 

In the future, you'll be the one with more free time and he'll be the one still having to do yard/man work, once the kids are gone.

 

I agree with you that he needs to find a way not to have the TV on in communal areas of the house while the kids are up.  Either the tv moves to another room,  he watches on a computer, or he waits until the middle kids are in bed. 

 

 

Note:  Man jobs involve lifting pretty much anything.  My MIL will NOT go out to the porch and bring in the folded up chairs when she has big thanksgiving dinners.  She is cooking.  Lifting things is a man job.  So, Richard or one of her sons has to head to the porch to get the chairs.  I've tried getting them before and she says, "What are you doing?  The men will do that!  Will you mash the potatoes, please?"   Start expecting him to pull weight in areas you might not have thought of before.  This is how you get your help.

 

I mean, personally, I want to come over and give him a good shake, but that won't work.  So, work with what you've got.  Start asking him for help with man tasks. Bringing in all the groceries from the car is a man task.  Putting them away is yours.  Moving furniture around is a man task, even if it's a folding chair.   :)

Edited April 2, 2017 by Garga

[bettyandbob]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

 

Explain "father/son" stuff. Do dad's ignore daughters. Really think about that. The message seems pretty close to girls aren't important enough to be acknowledged by dad. He ought to be think about activities he can do with his daughters too. 

 

Additionally, if he's so overweight is he really going to do any "father/son stuff". Can he handle being an assistant soccer coach. Can he handle a cub scout hike. 

 

It seems to me he's just making excuses for not being a real man and a real dad. 

[Garga]

 

 

It seems to me he's just making excuses for not being a real man and a real dad. 

 

I feel that way, too. I'd like to see how he reacts if the OP starts asking him to do all the man work around the house--hanging pictures, painting rooms for her, helping the kids to build birdhouses in the spring, moving boxes around in the attic, planting bushes for her in the yard, bringing in the groceries, etc.  

 

If he does those things, then great.  But if not, then his talk about traditional roles is just talk.  If he really believes in traditional roles, then he'll want to step up and be a man and do the man things.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Garga

[emmaluv+2more]

You know, the bottom line is that he believes in very traditional gender roles. His job is to hold down a job and do yard work and home maintenance, mine is to do everything with the kids, cook, and clean. He believes that a dad's job is basically to do work and do "father/son" stuff (his words). That's what his dad did, and that's the way it should be, end of story.

 

I'm just done. I'll keep bugging him about the TV because I hate it and it's not good for the kids either for it to be on in the living room all evening, but I'll just plan on doing everything else myself and try to hire what help I can find in other areas.

 

And I absolutely, 100% do not believe he has ADHD. If it comes from somewhere, it's probably coming from my dad who has a lot of problems with executive function. But then, I have 3 with dyslexia which is strongly heritable (is that the word?), and I know of no one in either family with it.

But are you okay with this? You seem like you are very unhappy in almost every post I've seen from you.

 

Gently-you make lots of excuses for not accepting advice. You have 3 choices: take control of your life and your happiness by demanding &/or creating change for yourself and not accepting his "traditional" gender role beliefs; offer him an ultimatum to either become an involved, helpful member of the family or don't be a part of the family at all; or accept your current role and the unhappiness it brings you. It is unlikely he will change.

 

I don't mean that to be harsh. I've been where you are (to a lesser extent) and finally had to make choices that were best for my physical, emotional, and mental health.

[Garga]

Did his mom homeschool? Kids with LDs? I hope you hire lots and lots of help for yourself and if he gives you any flak tell him it's the man's job to provide. He apparently has enough free time he could be working a second job instead of watching TV. And take your dd out for some fun girly pampering. Dh and I are pretty traditional ourselves, but this is ridiculous.

This is also a very good point. Homeschooling is a full time job when there are 5. Feel free to take the money he provides and use it for any time-saving/labor saving devices you need for your job.