What do you guys think of this...

[Alyce]

It's basically saying that since Mr. Obama didn't show his birth cetificate to prove that he is a naturalized citizen in the amount of time given he is ineligible to be a presidential candidate. Don't want any slams. I'm just asking what you make of this.

 

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/27/

[Debbie in OR]

I think he should just produce the records that have been asked of him (school, etc..) and either put it to bed, or, if there is something there, we should know about it.

[Renee in NC]

I just can't understand this. If McCain can win so easily, why isn't he trumpeting it from the roof tops?

 

Also, this hasn't been ruled on - the Request for Summary Judgement was filed on Oct. 22

[Cranberry]

seems a valid thing to me. Current law says you have to be born in the US to be pres, if there's question to that fact, then documents should be requested.

[GreenKitty]

I see no reason why the documentation asked for shouldn't be provided or whatever they want to see for that matter. Why hide it?

[Michelle T]

Hawaii is a state. He was born there. He would therefore be a US citizen even if both his parents were citizens of another country. Being born in the US makes you a citizen, regardless of where your parents claim citizenship. Why do you think so many come across the borders to give birth here? Of course, his mother WAS a natural born US citizen, so that's not even the case here.

 

Anyway, he did show a copy of his birth certificate earlier in the year.

 

And really, he's been a senator for awhile now. Don't you think SOMEBODY would have realized he was some sort of foreign national by now if that was the case?

 

I'm sure this thread will degenerate and be locked, but I figured I'd put these facts out first.

Michelle T

[Alyce]

if you look at the first page it says the motion has been Granted. I too think this birth certificate should be shown because it can squelsh some of the concerns people have about it. Why isn't he forecoming about this? And if the summary judgement has been granted why hasn't anybody jumped on this? Strange.

[Alyce]

then is this email a hoax?

[Michelle T]

Their reporters actually saw and touched his birth certificate, which I think is also posted on Obama's website. They vouched that it was real, had required raised stamp, signatures, etc.

 

Michelle T

[Jean too]

If there is nothing to hide, why hasn't he been forthcoming with the birth certificate or his school records? The basis for this case are not just about his birth certificate. My understanding is, that the case is also calling into question whether or not he ever had a duel citizenship. If he was ever a citizen of Indonesia, or any other country, he isn't eligible to be the President of the US.

The birth certificate that is on his website could easily have been photoshopped. Why is the certificate number blacked out?

[Penny from Tenny]

Yes, produce the documents already! We are headed for a consitutional crisis if this can't be resolved.

 

- Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s lack of “qualifications†to serve as President of the United States, announced today that Obama and Democratic National Committee [DNC] filed a Joint Motion for Protective Order to Stay Discovery Pending a Decision on the Motion to Dismiss (which was) filed on 09/24/08.

What?

[Renee in NC]

then is this email a hoax?

 

Not a hoax. It really is a court case. It hasn't been ruled on yet - the first 2 pages are part of the motion for the judge to sign, but they haven't been signed. This attorney is burying the court in paperwork and ignoring the motions filed by Obama and the DNC.

[Renee in NC]

Yes, produce the documents already! We are headed for a consitutional crisis if this can't be resolved.

 

- Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s lack of “qualifications†to serve as President of the United States, announced today that Obama and Democratic National Committee [DNC] filed a Joint Motion for Protective Order to Stay Discovery Pending a Decision on the Motion to Dismiss (which was) filed on 09/24/08.

What?

 

He did produce the documents and the attorney said they were fake. Now what?

[hornblower]

BTW, John McCain was born the Panama Canal Zone.

Which makes him a US citizen - born to US citizens on a US military installation. But is he a 'natural born citizen'?

[Jean too]

And unlike Obama, he has been forthcoming with his documentation. Yes, he is a "natural born US citizen" eligible to be President of the USA.

[nmoira]

 

My understanding is, that the case is also calling into question whether or not he ever had a duel citizenship. If he was ever a citizen of Indonesia, or any other country, he isn't eligible to be the President of the US.

Where does it say this in the Constitution?

[Penny from Tenny]

He did produce the documents and the attorney said they were fake. Now what?

 

Can you tell me where I might read about this?

[nmoira]

I think he should just produce the records that have been asked of him (school, etc..) and either put it to bed, or, if there is something there, we should know about it.

And I'm waiting to see McCain's medical records. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why he's not more forthcoming.

[ma23peas]

I think there are too many discrepancies....his brothers and sisters (half siblings) and his grandmother in Africa ALL said they saw him when he was born and named the hospital where he was. You would think if he was born in Hawaii, his mother's mother would be there and have taken pictures...that should clear it up...the fact that he's back in Hawaii at about the same time as the court case is too coincidental to me...I just see too many questions and wondering if they're big enough political who-who's who can create a birth certificate. I just don't get his own grandmother claiming the baby was born in Africa.

 

Tara

[Halftime Hope]

Their reporters actually saw and touched his birth certificate, which I think is also posted on Obama's website. They vouched that it was real, had required raised stamp, signatures, etc.

 

Michelle T

 

Something you should know, FactCheck.org is owned/run by (?) the Annenberg Foundation, which benefitted from $$$, and I believe Obama did legal work for them. (I don't remember the details.)

 

FactCheck.org is not an impartial third party.

[Renee in NC]

Can you tell me where I might read about this?

 

The attorney says this in the legal filings already linked.

 

I've done some quick scanning and it is an interesting case. *If* Obama was born in Kenya (haven't seen proof of that) then there are *several* things that come into play.

 

1. Supposedly his father was already married when he married Obama's mother, so that marriage is null and void which then calls another law into place (other than the one mentioned in the motion) because he was an illigitimate child.

 

2. The idea that Kenya was a British colony, which means that and claims to Kenyan citizenship were automatically cancelled on his 19th birthday.

[Amy in NH]

[nmoira]

Something you should know, FactCheck.org is owned/run by (?) the Annenberg Foundation, which benefitted from $$$, and I believe Obama did legal work for them. (I don't remember the details.)

 

FactCheck.org is not an impartial third party.

Just a second. Are you saying that a project funded venerable foundation founded by staunch Republicans can't be an impartial party because the foundation has worked with Democrats?

 

:001_huh:

 

 

I'd think that would be a plus with respect to impartiality.

[Apiphobic]

What do you guys think of this...

 

Go ask Alice

I think she'll know.

When logic and proportion

Have fallen sloppy dead,

And the White Knight is talking backwards

And the Red Queen's "off with her head!"

Remember what the dormouse said:

"Feed your head. Feed your head. Feed your head"

[OnTheBrink]

And I'm waiting to see McCain's medical records. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why he's not more forthcoming.

 

Birth certificates=public record

Medical records = not

[Tabrett]

From Fatcheck:

The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.

 

Now my question would be: why doesn't Hawaii just give Obama a copy of his long-form birth certificate? Especially since there is question of where he was originally born and he is running for president. I would think Hawaii would over look this policy for this type of case!!! How hard would this be if there was a real long form certificate?

[Highereducation]

I am an undecided voter as yet, but what I don't understand is how we got to be 2 weeks from a Presidential election without an issue like eligibility being settled one way or the other....? Who has the final say on something like this? Is it a matter for the courts, or there an existing policy document that outlines what procedure is to be followed?

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I don't think there's anything to it. I've read the stuff and looked up online as much as one can to see what I can find. If there is something to it, it's not easy to find online. I would think that this has been vetted by the Democrats when it came up. They wouldn't take their chances that this could be true, I would have to think.

 

Just off hand, what would happen if he were elected and this is found to be true? Would we have President Biden? Would there be a new election? What happens?

[Chika]

According to the allegations, he wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya to a Kenyan father. His mother returned with him to Hawaii and registered his birth, but since she herself wasn't a US citizen (the law states that you have to have lived in the US for the previous five years, AFTER the age of 14 -- she was just 18 when Obama was born), then he wasn't/isn't either. Also the document that has been produced is one that can be used by both natural born and naturalized citizens (two different categories, the latter of which doesn't qualify for being able to hold the office of president).

[Cornerstone Classical]

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Birth certificates=public record

Medical records = not

 

:iagree:

[Penny from Tenny]

Just off hand, what would happen if he were elected and this is found to be true? Would we have President Biden? Would there be a new election? What happens?

 

 

Constitutional crisis.

[Jean too]

Here's the you tube of the fellow that brought the lawsuit explaining his case against Obama.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Glyla5R7B8&feature=iv&annotation_id=event_615367

[hsmamainva]

11 more days ... and it will all be over ....

 

Please.... I can't count the number of deleted threads we've had over Obama's birth certificiate. Is it real or Memorex?

[Jennifer in NH]

Seriously? If any of you think this is a real issue, may I remind you that Obama ran against Hilary Clinton? Anyone who wants to believe this, and really think that the Clinton's would not have found this out in the primaries????

As for why is the certificate # blacked out....really? even if running for President would you want all of cyberspace to have access to your personal I.D. numbers?

For the record..I am a very avid conservative republican and am voting for McCain/Palin.

I just think this argument is nonsense....

 

One more thing though...I was born in Massachusetts...but my parents took no pictures....the only pictures i have are from school photos...perhaps I did not exsist until then?;) sorry about that, but I couldn't help it...

[nmoira]

 

According to the allegations, he wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya to a Kenyan father. His mother returned with him to Hawaii and registered his birth, but since she herself wasn't a US citizen (the law states that you have to have lived in the US for the previous five years, AFTER the age of 14 -- she was just 18 when Obama was born), then he wasn't/isn't either. Also the document that has been produced is one that can be used by both natural born and naturalized citizens (two different categories, the latter of which doesn't qualify for being able to hold the office of president).

Obama's mother was born in the US to American parents. Her citizenship is not in question.

[hsmamainva]

Seriously? If any of you think this is a real issue, may I remind you that Obama ran against Hilary Clinton? Anyone who wants to believe this, and really think that the Clinton's would not have found this out in the primaries????

 

Excellent point!

 

(I voted for Hillary in the primaries :D)

 

Not to mention that it would be all over every REAL news media market in the nation. Respectable news media like the big three networks, CNN ... not World Net Daily or YouTube.

[Renee in NC]

Obama's mother was born in the US to American parents. Her citizenship is not in question.

 

It is, actually, because it seems that her marrying an Indonesian national made her an Indonesian citizen and by default so was her minor son.

 

I agree with the statement above that Hillary Clinton would hae been ALL over this if it were true.

 

We need someone who was born in Hawaii to request their "long form" so we can see if it is easy to do or not.

[Wendi]

Seriously? If any of you think this is a real issue, may I remind you that Obama ran against Hilary Clinton? Anyone who wants to believe this, and really think that the Clinton's would not have found this out in the primaries????

 

 

This is an excellent point.

Wendi

[Renee in NC]

Excellent point!

 

(I voted for Hillary in the primaries :D)

 

Not to mention that it would be all over every REAL news media market in the nation. Respectable news media like the big three networks, CNN ... not World Net Daily or YouTube.

 

When I did a search at Fox News, the article that came up said the allegations were false.

 

As for the grandmother's statements and the Kenyan birth certificate, why isn't it posted online?

[Wendi]

You can be a senator or representative if you're a naturalized citizen, but not president.

 

Wendi

[PariSarah]

I've dealt with a lot of people with international marriages, and it's never come to my attention that marriage annuls US citizenship--not, at least, without further action on the citizen's part, either renouncing US citizenship in order to seek the other country's, or accepting the other country's when it was offered.

 

Is it different with Indonesia? Or was it different at that time?

[GreenKitty]

Here's the you tube of the fellow that brought the lawsuit explaining his case against Obama.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Glyla5R7B8&feature=iv&annotation_id=event_615367

 

Thanks for the link.

[Chika]

Obama's mother was born in the US to American parents. Her citizenship is not in question.

 

Sorry, I remembered it incorrectly. The following is copied from the legal document filed in a Pennsylvanian court (starting after the statement was made that the Plaintiff believes Obama was born in Kenya). I realize this belief -- the Kenyan birth and the Hawaiian registration -- are allegations by the Plaintiff and not something that has been proven.

 

"Obama's father was a Kenyan citizen and Obama's mother a United States citizen who was not old enough and did not reside in the United States long enough to register Obama's birth in Hawaii as a "natural born" citizen. Under the laws in effect between December 24, 1952 and November 14, 1986 (Obama was born in 1961) a child born outside the United States to one citizen parent could acquire "natural born" United States citizenship if the United States citizen parent had been physically present in the United States for ten (10) years prior to the child's birth, five (5) of those years being after the age of 14."

 

So according to this, IF TRUE, Obama should not have been registered as a natural born citizen because she did not meet all these qualifications spelled out in the law (she hadn't lived in the USA for the previous 10 years with five of those being after the age of 14 -- she was just 18 when Obama was born).

Edited October 24, 2008 by Chika

[Renee in NC]

I've dealt with a lot of people with international marriages, and it's never come to my attention that marriage annuls US citizenship--not, at least, without further action on the citizen's part, either renouncing US citizenship in order to seek the other country's, or accepting the other country's when it was offered.

 

Is it different with Indonesia? Or was it different at that time?

 

I don't have a clue - just paraphrasing what the lawsuit says. All I can find is that someone listed "Indonesian" under citizenship on some school papers in Indonesia, so therefore he must have been an Indonesian citizen? (I am not saying that - rather asking if I am clear on what someone has proposed.)

[Renee in NC]

Sorry, I remembered it incorrectly. But this is what I read in the legal document filed in a Pennsylvanian court (starting after the statement was made that the Plaintiff believes Obama was born in Kenya). I realize this belief -- the Kenyan birth and the Hawaiian registration -- are allegations by the Plaintiff and not something that has been proven.

 

"Obama's father was a Kenyan citizen and Obama's mother a United States citizen who was not old enough and did not reside in the United States long enough to register Obama's birth in Hawaii as a "natural born" citizen. Under the laws in effect between December 24, 1952 and November 14, 1986 (Obama was born in 1961) a child born outside the United States to one citizen parent could acquire "natural born" United States citizenship if the United States citizen parent had been physically present in the United States for ten (10) years prior to the child's birth, five (5) of those years being after the age of 14."

 

So according to this, IF TRUE, Obama should could not have been registered as a natural born citizen because she did not meet all these qualifications spelled out in the law.

 

It seems, though, that *if* this were true, that the possible illigitimacy of his birth placed him under a different set of laws than the ones stated above.

 

If it is not dismissed, it will take YEARS for all of this to be sorted out!:tongue_smilie:

[nmoira]

 

It is, actually, because it seems that her marrying an Indonesian national made her an Indonesian citizen and by default so was her minor son.

You don't lose US citizenship by marrying someone from of another nationality. Her SECOND husband was Indonesian, and she didn't move there until years after Barack's birth. Since she did not leave the US until after Barack's birth, whether or not she did ever become an Indonesian citizen and whether she did or did not renounce US citizenship is irrelevant.

[PariSarah]

I don't have a clue - just paraphrasing what the lawsuit says. All I can find is that someone listed "Indonesian" under citizenship on some school papers in Indonesia, so therefore he must have been an Indonesian citizen? (I am not saying that - rather asking if I am clear on what someone has proposed.)

 

. . . alien citizenship is established as to whether it annuls your US Citizenship. So, if you seek to become a citizen of country XYZ, you may automatically revoke your US citizen ship. But you might be allowed to accept if, if they offer, without losing your citizenship. OR, you might be allowed to seek it in country ABC, while you can't for country XYZ. It's very complicated.

 

But I've never heard of a case where marriage was in itself sufficient to annual US citizenship.

[Renee in NC]

You don't lose US citizenship by marrying someone from of another nationality. Her SECOND husband was Indonesian, and she didn't move there until years after Barack's birth. Since she did not leave the US until after Barack's birth, whether or not she did ever become an Indonesian citizen and whether she did or did not renounce US citizenship is irrelevant.

 

I don't believe the allegations and I didn't think you lost US citizenship just by marrying a foreign national. I agree with what you have said above - I was just throwing out what I had found on my (brief) google search.

[Murphy101]

that his maternal grandparents apparently named his mother Stanley!

Why would someone do that to a girl?

Just seems mean.

Right up there with naming a boy Sue.

:lol: