Autism, anxiety and rudeness

[Moxie]

Idk what to do with this 11yo boy.

 

He is high functioning autistic and has anxiety. I think the anxiety is the biggest issue.

 

His go-to self-defense mechanism is rudeness. For example, today our priest was shaking hands with everyone and my son just stared at him and made a mean, grunting sound.

 

Another issue is our neighbors. There are 2 5yo boys who are friends with my daughter. They 5yo's pick on my son. Anyone else would ignore them because they are just little twerp 5 yo's. But my son can't ignore it and makes threatening noises or actual threats (I'm gonna cut your head off! etc.). An 11 yo can not threaten a 5 yo!! People take that seriously! I've talked to the parents but nothing has changed.

 

How do I help this kid not be rude? Yes, he needs therapy. But that is like finding a unicorn in this town. He's had other therapies but eventually refuses to get in the car and there is nothing I can do when he gets like that.

[maize]

If you think anxiety is behind much of this behavior have you tried medication?

[Catwoman]

Why are the 5yos being allowed to pick on your son? I wouldn't allow them in my home or even in my yard if they were picking on my child.

[DawnM]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

So many hugs.  I have BTDT with my Aspie.  

 

I don't have advice other than to get a few books to maybe understand him better.  It was only once I fully understood him that I was able to help him.

 

He threatened to bomb people's houses and kill their families once after 9/11.  The preschool called me and almost kicked him out.

 

He did all sorts of things that would be interpreted at "mean" to others, but it was 100% because of his own sensory issues or perceptions.  Telling him, 'This is wrong" didn't do anything.  He had to BUY into it, fully understand it, etc...

 

I wasn't able to do it.  We had to go to therapy.  He got fantastic therapy, even group Aspeger therapy.   And we had to stop taking him to church, our therapist told us it would never be the right place for him.  Thankfully there is a church he will go to on occasion, so I take him there when he is wiling.

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

That's a tough place to be.

 

Are there any social skills classes available in your area for preteen autistic children?

 

As for the 5 year olds, have you tried having everyone in the room to talk about acceptable behavior and maybe try a bit of roll playing? Or maybe while the 5 year olds are there you play with everyone too so you can monitor and steer things on a better direction? Or maybe they just have to stay separated?

 

Hugs.

[Bambam]

If the anxiety is causing problems such that he cannot do things that he should be able to do at his age, that is my personal benchmark of when it is time to go get professional/medical/prescription help. 

 

But I'll say something about the younger boys picking on him.

 

1. In my house, if visitors aren't nice to all my children, they go home. Period. Not putting up with that. Don't care. No excuses. 

 

2. Your 11 year old needs tools to help deal with the 5 year bully-wanta-bes. We had a situation in our group where some younger boys (8-9) would sneak up behind the teen boys and kick them, or hit them with sticks. Now what were the older (13/14/15yo) boys supposed to do? If they were closer to the same age/size, they could have hit them back. They could tell them to stop - which was totally useless. They could have went and complained to the younger boy's moms - but that doesn't look very good. So, what tools should the older boys have been given to help them with this situation? (BTW, those younger boys are now older, and I just noticed some younger boys doing *exactly* the same thing to them that they used to do.) 

[maize]

My own 11 year old has anxiety and ADHD diagnoses but is also at least approaching autism spectrum. Medicating the ADHD helps a lot with inappropriately aggressive behaviors. We haven't yet tried medication for anxiety but it is a definite possibility in the future.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I would chalk it up in part to him being 11.  My 11 year old is quite emotional and sensitive.  He might not respond in quite the same way, but he sometimes responds in ways that a more mature person wouldn't. 

 

 

[LucyStoner]

When my son was about 11, we had to start a low dose of medication.  The medication alone was not enough but without the medication the therapy was futile.  The medication got him to a place where he could learn with his therapists.  

 

Also, as hard as it is, try to stop characterizing the result of his conditions as him being rude.  For years, I thought my son was "being rude" when he didn't respond when people he knew but wasn't close to said hello.  When he was about 10, I realized that he is affected by face blindness.  He wasn't responding or was responding with what looked like anger and fear not because he was being rude, but because he didn't recognize the people at all and legitimately wondered why the hell these people knew his name and were trying to talk to him.  All those years I judged him as though he was a neurotypical kid who was being rude to the minister, the classmates, the acquaintances and the neighbor.  None of those years of my mistaken understanding and escalating frustration (why was he being so rude?!) helped him move past this fairly significant issue.  Just changing how I thought about it helped but it also allowed me, working with his therapists, to help him learn adaptive skills and coping techniques.  He now knows that most people remember people they meet better than he does so he takes some time to note many things about people he meets and needs to remember.  He knows that it's not unusual for someone to recognize him when he doesn't recognize them and that there are things he can say and do that are socially helpful.  So now, when someone who he doesn't remember knows his name he's not panicking any longer and reacting in those "rude" ways.  Whatever is causing your son's reaction to these people is a deficit of a skill that neurotypical people take for granted.  It is something that he can remedy with proper supports, not something that speaks to his character.  

 

I would investigate medication and restarting therapy and/or a social skills group.  

[LucyStoner]

While an 11 year old can't threaten a 5 year old, an 11 year old with ASD who is being taunted or stressed by a situation (being around these two 5 year olds who tease him) also CAN NOT be safely repeatedly exposed to the same difficult situation without support and supervision.  That means those 5 year olds shouldn't be at your home until it is no longer a problem for your 11 year old.  

[LucyStoner]

Too often even parents minimize the significance and limitations that affect kids with "high functioning" autism. Also, we tend to minimize the degree to which anxiety can be difficult to deal with.  

 

My son has a dazzlingly bright intellect.  So I, despite knowing that he has ASD, too often assumed that he knew and understood so many things that he would have no way to, on his own without intentional instruction and support, know and understand.  When I realized he was face blind and imagined how much different my life would be if I could barely recognize facial features, it was a big reminder to stop minimizing his experiences as a child with ASD and anxiety.  

 

ETA:  I mention this because it's easy to cancel therapy when our kids don't want to go or when we can't seems to find the right fit but we do have to keep persisting.  The way I see it is this.  If my son had minor CP like his uncle I wouldn't be upset by a limp in his walk or let him go without a needed leg brace.  If he had epilepsy like his grandma, I wouldn't see a seizure as a moral failing or rude incident.  If he were epileptic and wasn't responding to an anti-convulsant medication, we wouldn't throw it out and not get a new prescription for something different.  There is a significant degree of persistence required of parents of kids with ASD who are struggling.  We can't just walk away from finding them the support (whatever mix of medication, therapy and/or home based help) they need because the first things we tried didn't help or cut off their medical help because it was imperfect.  But because we tend to minimize high functioning ASD and anxiety, it's really common for kids to go without treatment or outside support. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by LucyStoner

[PeterPan]

The problem with allowing the refusals of therapy at 11 to stand is that then he's 18 or 20 and refusing therapy. Then what? You have a lot more leverage now. You could even have positive leverage, if you got the help to do it that way. Refusals are a common, common thing it seems in ASD, so it's something a behaviorist could give you strategies for. 

 

As far as the neighbors, sounds like they just lost the right to come on your property. Done, end of discussion. Just walk over and politely inform the mom that her boys have been picking on your ds with SN, that his SN has a name, and that until they can apologize and act appropriately they aren't welcome back.

 

As far a the priest, that's gonna take some positive supports. Sounds a lot (haha, sorry, sounds) like my ds. I'm just saying my ds goes down on the language when he gets in situations. That's where I would up the support, up the pre-talking, up the motivators. I'm working with my ds on behaviors at a new church. We go OVER THE TOP with motivators. I had very low demands at first, and then as we got a couple things clicking we've started increasing expectations. Today I asked him to be ready in his mind to stay afterward a couple minutes to allow us to try to meet people. But it's all planted in his head, so he knows ahead of time the precise expectations and the motivators that are coming if he meets expectations. And I don't throw any surprise expectations. Like if the priest meeting wasn't decided before and talked through and agreed to, SKIP IT. Just walk around the line or slip out another door. Pull the autism card, kwim? 

 

If you know what you're working on and that you're working to increase his ability to have expected behaviors, it's no crime to say xyz isn't on the plan and that we're skipping that. If he hits the other things you wanted to have that day, it's overall a success! Then you build on that success the next week. Maybe you have a private meeting with the priest or you say he I want him to meet you but could we do it at the side or at a different time or could you please bring his favorite candy...

 

People who really get kids with SN make efforts. Our orthodontist works crazy hard to help ds feel comfortable. He makes extra effort, way more than with other kids, to find anything they have in common and build rapport. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[gardenmom5]

Idk what to do with this 11yo boy.

 

He is high functioning autistic and has anxiety. I think the anxiety is the biggest issue.

 

His go-to self-defense mechanism is rudeness. For example, today our priest was shaking hands with everyone and my son just stared at him and made a mean, grunting sound.

 

Another issue is our neighbors. There are 2 5yo boys who are friends with my daughter. They 5yo's pick on my son. Anyone else would ignore them because they are just little twerp 5 yo's. But my son can't ignore it and makes threatening noises or actual threats (I'm gonna cut your head off! etc.). An 11 yo can not threaten a 5 yo!! People take that seriously! I've talked to the parents but nothing has changed.

 

How do I help this kid not be rude? Yes, he needs therapy. But that is like finding a unicorn in this town. He's had other therapies but eventually refuses to get in the car and there is nothing I can do when he gets like that.

 

are the twerpy 5yos being twerpy at your house? in your yard? etc?  do you tell them they aren't allowed to be twerpy on your property and they need to go home now?  (they can come back the next day.)  tbh - I wouldn't care if someone was just shrugging it off - twerpy kids aren't welcome.  they can learn how to be polite - and if their parents don't teach  them, then I will.

does you ds go to their house where they're twerpy? 

 

as for your asd son - what are you doing for his anxiety?  anxiety comorbid with asd is far far more than just a therapist/counselor.  it is chemical and needs chemical support. 

 

I have an asd child with anxiety (we had to race :auto:  to open the door before he could.  He'd open it, yell  BANG and slam it in the person's face. :svengo:   . .  he loved the older men who'd yell bang back. :001_wub:   they made a friend.)

 

- I've been taking him to a ND :001_wub:  since he was six. (I wont' go into how utterly worthless my ped was :cursing: - whom I'd been taking kids to for 25 years. :angry:  :cursing:  or some of the things he said :eek: )   one of the first things she put him on was a variety of sups aimed at his anxiety.  much calmer.  it's been changed out over the years as his needs changed.  we've currently got him on one that is working so well  :001_wub: - his uber skeptical sister who also struggles with anxiety (it's genetic) finally tried it and feels normal for the first time in years. (after trying a number of different rx and even more drs.)

 

as he's hitting puberty hormones,  it's changing things again . . . :tongue_smilie: I'm not looking forward to another teenager . . .

 

[DawnM]

Oh, and adding in, my son did NOT want to go to therapy.  He threw a fit, screamed, stomped, refused to get in the car, etc.....

 

But the therapist was SO GOOD and made him feel completely comfortable, or as comfortable as my son would let him.

 

A few times my son said, "You only care because my mom pays you to care" to the therapist.  HAHA!  The therapist handled it very well.  

 

There is so much more I could say, it has been a LONG journey with my son.  But take heart mom, he will change and grow and you will be frustrated at new things......but he will still amaze you with the strides he will make if given the right tools and support.  Really.

[Guest]

are the twerpy 5yos being twerpy at your house? in your yard? etc? do you tell them they aren't allowed to be twerpy on your property and they need to go home now? (they can come back the next day.) tbh - I wouldn't care if someone was just shrugging it off - twerpy kids aren't welcome. they can learn how to be polite - and if their parents don't teach them, then I will.

does you ds go to their house where they're twerpy?

 

as for your asd son - what are you doing for his anxiety? anxiety comorbid with asd is far far more than just a therapist/counselor. it is chemical and needs chemical support.

 

I have an asd child with anxiety (we had to race :auto: to open the door before he could. He'd open it, yell BANG and slam it in the person's face. :svengo: . . he loved the older men who'd yell bang back. :001_wub: they made a friend.)

 

- I've been taking him to a ND :001_wub: since he was six. (I wont' go into how utterly worthless my ped was :cursing: - whom I'd been taking kids to for 25 years. :angry: :cursing: or some of the things he said :eek: ) one of the first things she put him on was a variety of sups aimed at his anxiety. much calmer. it's been changed out over the years as his needs changed. we've currently got him on one that is working so well :001_wub: - his uber skeptical sister who also struggles with anxiety (it's genetic) finally tried it and feels normal for the first time in years. (after trying a number of different rx and even more drs.)

 

as he's hitting puberty hormones, it's changing things again . . . :tongue_smilie: I'm not looking forward to another teenager . . .

It happens when they are all together in the street. I'm not always out there, I hear a lot of it after the fact.

 

Curious what supplement you are giving him that is helping??

 

He was on ADHD meds but it made his anxiety go through the roof. It was bad. We haven't tried anything since.

[gardenmom5]

It happens when they are all together in the street. I'm not always out there, I hear a lot of it after the fact.

 

Curious what supplement you are giving him that is helping??

 

He was on ADHD meds but it made his anxiety go through the roof. It was bad. We haven't tried anything since.

 

 

if this is going on in the street - you need to tell their parents.  (even if it's in your yard.)  make it as non-accusatory as possible.  (you want the parents to do something - not rush to defend the little darlngs)   and someone who can do something needs to make the effort to be out there to run interference and send the message this will not be tolerated.

 

I can't imagine giving adhd rx to an aspie with anxiety.  they're stimulants - no wonder they increased his anxiety levels. sheesh. (but lazy drs who reach for the easiest diagnosis . . . .  like the woman who kept gaining weight despite diet and exercise so her drs kept telling her to try harder. then she had blood clots in her legs so they did an MRI. . she had a 140lb ovarian cyst.)

 

some things that can help with anxiety:  (I still give him some on days I expect his stress level to be higher.)

gaba (pharma gaba is preferred - but pricy. uses smaller dose.)

l-theanine

NAC has done wonders for his aggression.  he takes 200mg 2x a day since he was six.  when the stock lapsed -he regressed.  (I also stopped letting him eat anything with nitrates.  he's since resumed occasionally eating stuff - without any of the previous issues.)

 

what he's on right now specifically for anxiety:  (that my NT dd with anxiety also takes)

douglas laboratories (brand matters) ashwaghanda (it has a higher percentage of withaniloids compared to other brands.  iow: it's more concentrated.) 1200mg (2 capsules) 2x per day  (it's what we've found that works for him.)

COMBINED with

pure encapsulations bacopa monneri  1 @ 2x per day

the two work best together.

 

have you ever looked into food sensitivities? 

[LucyStoner]

He was on ADHD meds but it made his anxiety go through the roof. It was bad. We haven't tried anything since.

 

We haven't done ADHD meds for our older son at all because of the anxiety factor.  I would investigate, in addition to supplements, anxiety medications.  

[Guest]

if this is going on in the street - you need to tell their parents. (even if it's in your yard.) make it as non-accusatory as possible. (you want the parents to do something - not rush to defend the little darlngs) and someone who can do something needs to make the effort to be out there to run interference and send the message this will not be tolerated.

 

I can't imagine giving adhd rx to an aspie with anxiety. they're stimulants - no wonder they increased his anxiety levels. sheesh. (but lazy drs who reach for the easiest diagnosis . . . . like the woman who kept gaining weight despite diet and exercise so her drs kept telling her to try harder. then she had blood clots in her legs so they did an MRI. . she had a 140lb ovarian cyst.)

 

some things that can help with anxiety: (I still give him some on days I expect his stress level to be higher.)

gaba (pharma gaba is preferred - but pricy. uses smaller dose.)

l-theanine

NAC has done wonders for his aggression. he takes 200mg 2x a day since he was six. when the stock lapsed -he regressed. (I also stopped letting him eat anything with nitrates. he's since resumed occasionally eating stuff - without any of the previous issues.)

 

what he's on right now specifically for anxiety: (that my NT dd with anxiety also takes)

douglas laboratories (brand matters) ashwaghanda (it has a higher percentage of withaniloids compared to other brands. iow: it's more concentrated.) 1200mg (2 capsules) 2x per day (it's what we've found that works for him.)

COMBINED with

pure encapsulations bacopa monneri 1 @ 2x per day

the two work best together.

 

have you ever looked into food sensitivities?

Um, excuse me?? I have a great team of doctors. At that time, we were working hard to deal with what we thought was his biggest issue, ADHD. We tried something and it worked until it didn't. I assure you we didn't give him $300/month meds because it was the easiest fix.

[ktgrok]

Agreeing with so much that was said! 

 

First, if you know he can't handle greeting the priest, skip it for now. 

 

Work on role playing. Role playing helped us SO much. You may think that it is obvious what he should do in a given situation, but those with ASD don't pick up social niceties without being expressly taught. So saying, "When you get up to Father Tom he will say hi, and hold out his hand. You will shake it, like this, with your left hand, and say good morning. Then let go and walk away so the next person can shake hands."

 

And you can role play what to do with the 5 yr olds as well. 

[sbgrace]

OP, one ADHD med put my son's anxiety through the roof, but Ritalin of all things doesn't. So it might be worth trying something else if you need ADHD help. The ADHD and autism together are so much harder for social stuff it seems, at least in my son.

 

I would consider anxiety medication. Is it possible some of the therapy resistance is anxiety related? My son is resistant to therapy, but accepting and actually enjoys therapy once it starts. I think it's anxiety and rigidity that causes the initial resistance.  A good therapist can help a lot, or has here.

 

Anxiety looks rude here too, but those who know he has autism seem to understand as we work on how we come across to others in therapies. I don't let my son be exposed to bullies, even if it means my other son misses out on something (who needs those kinds of friends anyway...) That said, our problem kids aren't neighborhood kids. Therapists and materials we've worked with do try to teach ASD kids how to respond to bullies. So that can be worked on as well.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by sbgrace

[Farrar]

I would chalk it up in part to him being 11.  My 11 year old is quite emotional and sensitive.  He might not respond in quite the same way, but he sometimes responds in ways that a more mature person wouldn't. 

 

I don't want to downplay the role of the other issues involved at all - I used to work with kids with a lot of those issues back when I was teaching at a small school for quirky kids... but also I agree with this. It's a grouchy age. One of my ds grunts now and he's pretty neurotypical. Obviously, we're working on it. He maybe has a better recognition of all the reasons it's not okay than your ds (he can be very apologetic once he's out of his grouch moment) but also... it's a hard age. Just, hold that in mind.

 

Seconding all the good advice about continuing to investigate meds and also to see what can be done about the 5 yos, though I get that it's happening out in the neighborhood in the yards, etc. and that can be hard to police.

[maize]

We haven't done ADHD meds for our older son at all because of the anxiety factor. I would investigate, in addition to supplements, anxiety medications.

I was concerned about trying ADHD meds for ds11 as well because I expected them to worsen his anxiety, but so far it doesn't seem to be working out that way.

 

I think it can be impossible to know how a particular child will react to a medication until you try.

 

The one day last week I forgot to give ds his medication he fought with everyone in the house all day. Which is what he was doing before starting medication.

Edited March 6, 2017 by maize

[Terabith]

I can't help you. A man came up to me during the Peace at church and said, "I'm sorry. I think I scared your daughter. I sat down next to her earlier and she jumped and then growled and hissed at me."

 

She's almost 12.

[Catwoman]

if this is going on in the street - you need to tell their parents. (even if it's in your yard.) make it as non-accusatory as possible. (you want the parents to do something - not rush to defend the little darlngs) and someone who can do something needs to make the effort to be out there to run interference and send the message this will not be tolerated.

 

I can't imagine giving adhd rx to an aspie with anxiety. they're stimulants - no wonder they increased his anxiety levels. sheesh. (but lazy drs who reach for the easiest diagnosis . . . . like the woman who kept gaining weight despite diet and exercise so her drs kept telling her to try harder. then she had blood clots in her legs so they did an MRI. . she had a 140lb ovarian cyst.)

 

some things that can help with anxiety: (I still give him some on days I expect his stress level to be higher.)

gaba (pharma gaba is preferred - but pricy. uses smaller dose.)

l-theanine

NAC has done wonders for his aggression. he takes 200mg 2x a day since he was six. when the stock lapsed -he regressed. (I also stopped letting him eat anything with nitrates. he's since resumed occasionally eating stuff - without any of the previous issues.)

 

what he's on right now specifically for anxiety: (that my NT dd with anxiety also takes)

douglas laboratories (brand matters) ashwaghanda (it has a higher percentage of withaniloids compared to other brands. iow: it's more concentrated.) 1200mg (2 capsules) 2x per day (it's what we've found that works for him.)

COMBINED with

pure encapsulations bacopa monneri 1 @ 2x per day

the two work best together.

 

have you ever looked into food sensitivities?

 

Um, excuse me?? I have a great team of doctors. At that time, we were working hard to deal with what we thought was his biggest issue, ADHD. We tried something and it worked until it didn't. I assure you we didn't give him $300/month meds because it was the easiest fix.

I think Kristen was just trying to be helpful. I'm not sure why you jumped down her throat. :confused:

 

 

(Edited to fix the quotes.)

Edited March 6, 2017 by Catwoman

[ktgrok]

I was concerned about trying ADHD meds for ds11 as well because I expected them to worsen his anxiety, but so far it doesn't seem to be working out that way.

 

I think it can be impossible to know how a particular child will react to a medication until you try.

 

The one day last week I forgot to give ds his medication he fought with everyone in the house all day. Which is what he was doing before starting medication.

 

Yup, my teen ASD/ADHD/SPD kid is WAY nicer and happier on his ADHD meds. I worried it would cause more anger issues but just the opposite!

[ktgrok]

I can't help you. A man came up to me during the Peace at church and said, "I'm sorry. I think I scared your daughter. I sat down next to her earlier and she jumped and then growled and hissed at me."

 

She's almost 12.

 

I'd forgotten about the hissing! My kid didn't growl, but he did hiss!

[Terabith]

She communicates well with the cats.

[Guest]

 

I think Kristen was just trying to be helpful. I'm not sure why you jumped down her throat. :confused:

 

 

(Edited to fix the quotes.)

If I misread, I apologize. I read it as she was implying that my doctor was looking for the quickest way to get us out the door.