Things that make you wonder about people

[jewellsmommy]

  

The principle doesn't necessarily apply when it comes to cars, at least not as far as I'm concerned.

 

I have received price quotes from different dealerships on vehicles with the exact same specs that varied up to $10k. I can't get those exact quotes without taking a salesperson's time because negotiations are involved. It's the same when they're valuing the vehicle I want to trade in. Someone has to take the time to inspect it and drive it and to come up with an offer for me.

 

I'm not going to buy any car I haven't test-driven because even two brand new cars with the same specs can have different quirks when I drive them, so that's going to take a salesperson's time, and I'm probably going to want to drive more than one vehicle before I make the decision to even begin negotiations.

 

One thing we always do, though, is deal with the same salesperson each time we go to a dealership. I wouldn't let one salesperson go to all the trouble of selling me on a particular car and then go back another day and buy that car from someone else. We buy a lot of cars, so we tend to have "our" salesperson at the dealerships we visit, so we generally call ahead to make sure they will be there when we arrive -- but that still doesn't make me feel obligated to buy a car from them unless the price and the trade value are right.

 

Are we the only people who shop for cars like other people browse in the mall? Just because we walk into a dealership and look at the new models and get some information from a salesperson doesn't mean we feel obligated to buy a new car every time we go there. We're just having fun and gathering information for the next time we want to make a purchase. (We do tell the salespeople upfront that we're just browsing, though -- we don't lead them on.)

 

 

I was thinking that it was an exception. I just wasn't sure if was because the industry kind-of forces it to be that way or if it was because such a large sum was at stake or some other reason. I was surprised when others started saying that they don't even buy cars that way. So then I was like, "huh" maybe it's not an exception and maybe we should consider this more carefully for next time. I was hoping to see a couple opinions on the matter even though we aren't even buying a car any time soon. I'm just weird and curious.  :lol:

[Catwoman]

What about house shopping and going to open houses? I don't feel obligated to buy every house I look at. Lots of people attend open houses just for the sole purpose of being nosey.

 

-

I apologize for sticking in the post about the schools. I thought I had opened a different thread when I did that. I'm blaming Dayquil.

I have posted in the wrong thread more than once and didn't even have DayQuil to blame, so I think you're just fine! :)

 

I hadn't even thought about the open houses! I have gone just to be nosy, and when we were house shopping last year, we went to every open house we could possibly attend in the towns we liked and because we were new to the state, we asked all of the realtors a lot of questions about the area. We certainly didn't feel obligated to buy any of the houses just because we had taken up an agent's time. In fact, one of the reasons we spent time talking to the agents is because we wanted to find one to work with us on our house search, so I definitely don't feel like I was obligated to work with the first one I spoke with. Buying a house is a big deal and I wasn't going to work with just anyone or choose the first house I toured.

 

We were fortunate to find a good agent pretty quickly, but we used the services of two others who weren't so great before we met him. And even after we connected with our agent, we still went to open houses every weekend and spoke with those agents about the homes. We were open about the fact that we were working with someone else, but we didn't hesitate to ask questions. After all, if we ended up buying one of those homes, that agent would still be making money off the sale.

[jewellsmommy]

What about house shopping and going to open houses? I don't feel obligated to buy every house I look at. Lots of people attend open houses just for the sole purpose of being nosey.

 

-

I apologize for sticking in the post about the schools. I thought I had opened a different thread when I did that. I'm blaming Dayquil.

 

 

I think it's fine to just look when there is an open house, personally. Of course I have already outed myself as an overly curious person.  :lol:  As long as you don't misrepresent yourself and start telling realtors that you're going to put in an offer or something like that and then walk away snickering, it seems fine to me.

 

I do think house shopping is different because it isn't like you can find the exact same house from different realtors like you can retailers. I think it's also more like car buying because you are dependant on the industry to let you in the house unlesss you're content to only peep through windows. Again, as long as your honest about your intentions.

 

I wouldn't look at a million dollar house if I can only afford a $200,000 house...unless it's an open house anyway  :D .

[EmseB]

This generally isn't true. The amount of return to the local economy from local business is significantly more than with big businesses, and they tend to create more jobs, not fewer, and better quality ones as well.

I guess that depends on the metric you're using. Jeff Bezos as an individual certainly employs more people than my local, independent grocery. And he impacts jobs in ways that are hard to mention, like small sellers and independent publishers being able to have access to many customers they could have never reached 20 years ago.

 

I guess the quality of those jobs as a value proposition would be up to the employees. The local grocer in a community can only provide so many jobs before they are no longer just a mom and pop and everyone considers them a chain. So success in that case would be a net negative because chain stores are not as good as local stores?

 

I just think, morally, there's not case to be made for someone two towns over being employed instead of someone local to me being employed. Or even an ocean away. My local grocer is not more deserving of economic enrichment because he's local. If he's a better quality business and a wise use of my dollars, that's where I shop. But I don't think local is a virtue or necessarily uses less resources if their products are more expensive.

[Bluegoat]

  

The principle doesn't necessarily apply when it comes to cars, at least not as far as I'm concerned.

 

I have received price quotes from different dealerships on vehicles with the exact same specs that varied up to $10k. I can't get those exact quotes without taking a salesperson's time because negotiations are involved. It's the same when they're valuing the vehicle I want to trade in. Someone has to take the time to inspect it and drive it and to come up with an offer for me.

 

I'm not going to buy any car I haven't test-driven because even two brand new cars with the same specs can have different quirks when I drive them, so that's going to take a salesperson's time, and I'm probably going to want to drive more than one vehicle before I make the decision to even begin negotiations.

 

One thing we always do, though, is deal with the same salesperson each time we go to a dealership. I wouldn't let one salesperson go to all the trouble of selling me on a particular car and then go back another day and buy that car from someone else. We buy a lot of cars, so we tend to have "our" salesperson at the dealerships we visit, so we generally call ahead to make sure they will be there when we arrive -- but that still doesn't make me feel obligated to buy a car from them unless the price and the trade value are right.

 

Are we the only people who shop for cars like other people browse in the mall? Just because we walk into a dealership and look at the new models and get some information from a salesperson doesn't mean we feel obligated to buy a new car every time we go there. We're just having fun and gathering information for the next time we want to make a purchase. (We do tell the salespeople upfront that we're just browsing, though -- we don't lead them on.)

 

But this is the point - because car shopping is set up to work differently than most retail shopping, when you apply the principle you come out with a different way of doing it.

 

If you are looking at the same car, for example, it doesn't matter which dealer you use, it comes from the same factory and is made the same way.  But, especially used, there may be other factors that are different, and are kind of hard to define as well.  And test-driving is important to see if you like the product, no one expects that test-driving means buying - just like trying on shoes.

 

Car sales are predicated on that kind of service even though many will never buy, because that suits the product.

 

OTOH, you still might avoid a place that is cheaper if you think their business practices are immoral, even if you get a cheaper car as a result.  And just like you don't want the salesperson to pressure you to buy or get extra unnecessary products, trying to pressure him into a bad sale by manipulation might not be fair either.

[Bluegoat]

I think open houses are ok, just don't hog the realtors time.

 

I had people come and look at my house when it was up for sale once, and they told the realtor it was their hobby.  I was pissed - I had a toddler and new baby, and had to spend the hour drivving around in the car with our dogs in the back, all after spending the morning frantically cleaning.

[EmseB]

To be clear, I think it's unethical to waste someone's time deliberately knowing you're going to buy something else. But often people don't know that. They can't know that unless they go into a store to shop and also look online. Stores without an online presence, in general, would rather a person come into the store than not.

 

In this day and age, b&m retailers have to find some way to compete with online retailers who don't have the same overhead. I know people who have done this sucessfully, ironically, by selling online first and using that capital to open a b&m store.

 

But it seems like people want to be Luddites about this. We didn't say it was unethical for people to start using automobiles because it put the horse and buggy people largely out of business, right? That was a HUGE shift in culture and economics. It hurt some people economically, but many more people have been enriched by easy, convenient transportation.

 

Yes, I'm aware there are people who want to outlaw cars. I can't speak to that.

[Bluegoat]

I guess that depends on the metric you're using. Jeff Bezos as an individual certainly employs more people than my local, independent grocery. And he impacts jobs in ways that are hard to mention, like small sellers and independent publishers being able to have access to many customers they could have never reached 20 years ago.

 

I guess the quality of those jobs as a value proposition would be up to the employees. The local grocer in a community can only provide so many jobs before they are no longer just a mom and pop and everyone considers them a chain. So success in that case would be a net negative because chain stores are not as good as local stores?

 

I just think, morally, there's not case to be made for someone two towns over being employed instead of someone local to me being employed. Or even an ocean away. My local grocer is not more deserving of economic enrichment because he's local. If he's a better quality business and a wise use of my dollars, that's where I shop. But I don't think local is a virtue or necessarily uses less resources if their products are more expensive.

 

That isn't a very equivalent metric.  A Walmart that serves 1000 people in your community will probably directly employ te same or fewer as three smaller businesses that serve the same number.  But where job creation really comes in is in the business they create secondarily.  Accountants, people who create the logos, and so on, are all going to be from elsewhere, whereas local businesses tend to contract to other local businesses.  So, that creates more stable jobs in the community. 

 

Also, buying at Walmart means a good portion of the money you spend will go elsewhere, and those people spend it elsewhere. 

 

Mom and pop isn't the point - local ownership is.  A chain with local ownership is local.  A chain which isn't - you are sending your money to be spent elsewhere.

 

The idea is not that other communities are less deserving, it is tat if people mostly spend where they live, it keeps all those communities viable and good places.  Whereas te tendency, as Creekland said, is for the infrastructure of many to waste away, so increasingly there are fewer jobs, fewer people, and there is concentration in big cities.  This is going on now in many places, it isn't theoretical.

[Bluegoat]

A car is a different product than a horse and buggy.

 

If people are content with having to move for poor jobs, or their kids being in that position, then spend to that effect. 

[EmseB]

Here's a thought: how many people use these boards with no intention of ever buying a WTM product ever again? Never click on ads (or run an ad blocker)?

 

We are using the resources of that business, right?

 

I was thinking about this as I was thinking about window shopping online and using up a website's bandwidth with no intention of buying anything.

 

Hosting is not cheap.

[EmseB]

A car is a different product than a horse and buggy.

 

If people are content with having to move for poor jobs, or their kids being in that position, then spend to that effect.

The technology of the car replaced the horse and buggy. The internet is replacing a lot of former industries with better jobs, more education, and more efficiency giving people more time for leisure. Retail is just one industry that has to adapt to changing technology. It's not a bad thing.

 

Your premise that jobs arising from this change are necessarily poor isn't accurate.

[Bluegoat]

The technology of the car replaced the horse and buggy. The internet is replacing a lot of former industries with better jobs, more education, and more efficiency giving people more time for leisure. Retail is just one industry that has to adapt to changing technology. It's not a bad thing.

 

Your premise that jobs arising from this change are necessarily poor isn't accurate.

 

There is a similarity in that with cars, they were built in more centralized factories than buggies were, and horses wre bred throughout the country.

 

And there were and continue to be real advantages to the fact that horses aren't manufactured centrally.

 

But you are talking about two different products with quite different characteristics, not retail models.  Buying a plunger on Amazon or down the road, you may be buying the same plunger, you are not using the same middleman.

[creekland]

Yes. We did our research online too. I'm not talking about that part.

 

We narrowed it down to 2 cars through research. But, we had to drive one to know for sure. We had a top runner and runner up depending on how they felt to drive and fit etc. I don't know any way around that. I am short and ds is tall, we had to at least sit it in it first. KWIM?

 

We only had to test drive one because we really liked the first. The attendant then started the negotiation process. But during the process, we just felt that they were undervaluing our trade in. So, the next day we went to a different lot and we got a much better deal on both the trade in and the car.

 

The first guy put time in (the test drive and negotiation) so should he have gotten the sale under some feelings here? Or is there an exception for cars?

 

But in your situation you had no idea how much the vehicle was going to cost going in.  You truly thought you would get a reasonable amount for your trade in or you wouldn't have started there I suspect... totally different than knowing the price of special boots, going in to a small shop to try several pairs on, taking pics of what fit you best, then heading out to buy them online so you could save a few bucks.

 

What about house shopping and going to open houses? I don't feel obligated to buy every house I look at. Lots of people attend open houses just for the sole purpose of being nosey..

 

Open houses are there to attract people.  You are VERY unlikely to go home, sit on your computer, buy the "same house" (in a different area) for less just because you attended a few open houses.

 

Having a realtor think you are going to buy "something" from them and spending several hours doing research for you, showing you places, then cutting a deal with the owner of a place you like in a way that cuts the realtor out (waiting 6 months to buy from them FSBO) would be similar ethically. 

 

I just think, morally, there's not case to be made for someone two towns over being employed instead of someone local to me being employed. Or even an ocean away. My local grocer is not more deserving of economic enrichment because he's local. 

 

This all depends upon the quality of local community you want.  Spending locally keeps more money local whether it's food, clothing, shelter, entertainment, or knick knacks.  Spending elsewhere supports that community, not yours.  If you're fine letting yours die out (as far as it depends upon you), then there's definitely no problem I suppose.

 

As for us... we just got back from our personal Taco Thursday - getting scrumptious Mexican food from a very local small Mexican restaurant, buying soft pretzels from a local place, getting wine from our local winery, and some pies (for a belated pie day) from a local bakery.  I could have gotten similar things from Big Chain Store and/or Taco Bell for less, but why?  I honestly like supporting local instead - and yes - it cost me more (esp since we tip well too), but it's money well spent IMO.

 

FWIW, it's other locals (or soon to be locals) who keep my hubby employed as a Civil Engineer.  Big Chain Store and/or Taco Bell have no need - they bring in their own to develop the new place when they build it.  They employ local folks to do the day to day running, but those tend to be the lower paid jobs comparatively - still important, but no moreso than the other places and I get the "whole package" from the other places.  We also know that if they need someone doing hubby's line of work, where they will turn to reciprocate (has happened).  Big Chain Store won't do that.  They have no need or desire.

 

It's all a matter of how one feels about community TBH.

[forty-two]

I have to say, I will sometimes look at things online. I will "use" amazon or walmart for their reviews, but decide I want to see it in person or I don't want to wait for the item (even though both offer 2 day shipping, I sometimes want it now) and I will go a local store and maybe spend the same amount or maybe it is a few dollars more, but I get it now. Is it equally wrong to use amazon's resources online if I intend to buy in a b&m store and I know it at the time? 

 

That's an interesting question.  I do think the parallel broadly holds - that using online retailers to research things I know from the start that I have no intention of buying from them can be morally problematic in the same way as using b&m stores to research things you intend from the start to buy elsewhere.  I do think that research gained from browsing online retail sites is more like window shopping at a b&m store - it's looking at the general information they put out.   While asking the online retailer questions, taking up their time in a specific-to-you way - that's more comparable to using the specific time and expertise of a b&m employee to help you shop.

 

Thinking about the ethics of window shopping and browsing online retailers: while it does cost them money to display those items and compile the information in the first place, and your accessing the information via their bandwidth or b&m store does cost them money as well - a lot of that is part of their general overhead.  (And many of them probably *want* people to browse them even when they have no plans to buy, because over time that generally leads to people buying from them.)  I don't have a problem window shopping or browsing online retailers to learn about things I probably won't buy from them - so long as I *also* patronize those stores when I *do* buy things.  For example, I buy a lot from amazon, but I also do use them as a generic first-place-I-look to find out more information for things I have no idea where I'll buy them from.  While I don't *always* buy from Amazon, I *do* regularly support them with my business.  I'm not always taking from amazon while never, ever buying from them.  Likewise, most of the b&m stores I regularly window shop and check prices at - they are stores that I regularly patronize. 

 

IDK that I'd worry about one-offs, occasionally browsing and not buying at a store I rarely go to, but if I am regularly appreciating browsing what a store is offering (whether in person or online), then I do think it would be generally good to support them by buying from them as well.  I think they are providing a good service, I'm appreciating that good service on a regular basis, and if I want them to continue to be able to provide the service, then I do need to support them.  Otherwise, at a certain point generic you does rather become a freeloader.  Does that make sense?

[jewellsmommy]

In general, I think that the players and scammers represent a small extreme just as people who would never even look at Amazon's site and only buy from locally owned b&m (regardless of price) represent an extreme in the other direction. The rest of society is in a pretty big section of the middle of the spectrum. 

 

I choose to believe that the majority of people are generally well-intentioned, but also have to watch their family's bottom line as a necessity not just for sport. I have gone both ways where I looked online but bought local and looked local but ultimately bought from online. 

 

When we go on vacation, we almost exclusively (except the hotel) eat at their local restaurants (or prepare our own at the hotel) and browse/shop at the local places. We don't go to the obx to shop at a walmart. My hometown probably gets the shorter end of the stick when it comes to me using a lot of local retailers. But even at my local Target, shopping there means that they keep people hired. Those are local jobs and they spend their money in a mixed fashion as I do so some of it stays local too.

 

 

 

ETA: I rarely ask for help when shopping. As an introvert, honestly, I'd rather you left me alone and let me figure it out on my own.  :lol:  I enjoy the space to read every box of cracker's ingredients if I want. Or to sit on every couch in the store before deciding. So, "leave me alone til I come to you with what I have decided to buy" is my general motto. I'm not mean, I promise, people helping me too much just stresses me out, makes me feel rushed and then I feel obligated or 'locked in' to something I might not otherwise choose. Again, I'm weird and I own it.  :D

Edited March 16, 2017 by jewellsmommy

[creekland]

I think most of us end up doing some sort of combo of online vs local pending the individual situation.  As a pp said, it's not a rule, it's an ideal.

 

I just bought a video from Amazon.  Why?  I looked locally, esp since I wanted it quickly, and couldn't find it anywhere - a specific video - to use with my MIL on our next visit (she has very advanced Alzheimers and only certain things/shows keep her attention).  Amazon filled the niche other places didn't.  I'd have still paid up to twice as much (esp with no shipping) to have gotten it locally if I could have found it.  I didn't go without because I couldn't find it though.

[heartlikealion]

Those that feel badly about using the store's resources... are you worried about the sales person or the store on a bigger scale? Because when I was the employee, I didn't work commission and it really didn't hurt my feelings if you didn't buy lol. You probably helped me pass the time if I was helping you look. The things I *was* evaluated on was my store credit card applications and/or protection plans depending on which retail place I was working at. Trust me, just because someone wears a uniform and looks like an expert on the TV commercials doesn't mean they had a lot of training. I think people give sales associates too much credit about using their precious time. Please, I loved walking away from the register to assist people on the floor. Maybe I'm just weird :)

 

I once went to a running shoe store. They assessed my gait and gave me limited shoe options based on the results. Of those shoes recommended for my plantar fasciitis, there was really only one that was a good fit for me. Problem was it was $120. I had to think about it. They were quite frankly, kinda ugly. Well, I felt badly about it and bought some expensive socks we had talked about. I thought about the shoes and ended up finding them on sale online for $90. Did I feel like I did something wrong? Maybe? But I rarely spend that much on shoes. Especially ones that were more a necessity than a true want. I would guess that shoes sales people are more likely to work on commission, hence my purchasing the socks.

 

ETA: We might do car shopping weird? Like a previous poster stated, we went to more than one car lot. Yes, there was online research involved, but we still ended up at two lots. And I'm glad we didn't buy the first car. It had a huge hump in the floorboard by the driver's feet. I told dh it drove me nuts and he said he'd mainly be driving it. Well, as it turns out I drive the car more often and I'm glad I don't have the darn hump LOL

Edited March 17, 2017 by heartlikealion

[jewellsmommy]

 

 

ETA: We might do car shopping weird? Like a previous poster stated, we went to more than one car lot. Yes, there was online research involved, but we still ended up at two lots. And I'm glad we didn't buy the first car. It had a huge hump in the floorboard by the driver's feet. I told dh it drove me nuts and he said he'd mainly be driving it. Well, as it turns out I drive the car more often and I'm glad I don't have the darn hump LOL

 

We can be weird together.  :D  Welcome to the party.  :biggrinjester:  :auto:

[creekland]

Those that feel badly about using the store's resources... are you worried about the sales person or the store on a bigger scale? 

 

For me, I'm talking about mom & pop places - those often working on a shoestring budget of profit in today's age - those likely to close down due to internet shoppers... 'cause I've seen it happen.

 

As for your car deal - what's wrong with what you did?  If you didn't like the car, why buy it?  I don't think anyone would think you should have bought what you don't like just because you looked at it.  That's not at all what folks are talking about.  

[heartlikealion]

For me, I'm talking about mom & pop places - those often working on a shoestring budget of profit in today's age - those likely to close down due to internet shoppers... 'cause I've seen it happen.

 

As for your car deal - what's wrong with what you did?  If you didn't like the car, why buy it?  I don't think anyone would think you should have bought what you don't like just because you looked at it.  That's not at all what folks are talking about.  

 

Ah I see. Yes, that can make a difference in my shopping choices.

 

As for the car, well, dh sat down and negotiated price in one place (not the car with the hump) and we ended up leaving without a sale. Pretty sure the negotiating ended with the sales person being rude/ticked off because we wouldn't accept the offer. You could argue we wasted the sales person's time, but we left much happier and with a sale somewhere else on a different car.

[Catwoman]

Ah I see. Yes, that can make a difference in my shopping choices.

 

As for the car, well, dh sat down and negotiated price in one place (not the car with the hump) and we ended up leaving without a sale. Pretty sure the negotiating ended with the sales person being rude/ticked off because we wouldn't accept the offer. You could argue we wasted the sales person's time, but we left much happier and with a sale somewhere else on a different car.

I would argue that a salesperson is not entitled to a sale every time he does his job by assisting a customer.

 

I don't know of any salesperson who expects every customer to make a purchase. That would be ridiculous. Even if a salesperson is on commission, his or her primary job is still to help the customers that come in to the store or the car dealership, or wherever.

[happi duck]

My two cents:

If you get customized help and decide against the product that's fine.

 

If you run across the product on sale elsewhere in the future and decide "I do want this after all" or "at this price I think I will buy it" that's fine.

 

To me, it's wrong to *plan* on "I'll go get customized help and then order online because it's cheaper."

 

If we want places irl that give customized service we need to actually shop there in order for them to stay in business, kwim?

[DesertBlossom]

Reading this thread my initial thought was that I really have no problem with buying an item cheaper elsewhere after trying it on in a store.

 

 

Then I remembered that I went into a specialty shoe store hoping to just determine my size in a particular shoe. I fully intended to buy online I was just debating between 2 sizes. I ended up spending significant time with the shoe guy getting some really good information, so I bought my shoes there. I would have felt guilty about buying them online after that. UNLESS I had managed to get in and determine the size myself without attracting a salesman. 😆

Edited March 18, 2017 by DesertBlossom

[FaithManor]

Here's a thought: how many people use these boards with no intention of ever buying a WTM product ever again? Never click on ads (or run an ad blocker)?

 

We are using the resources of that business, right?

 

I was thinking about this as I was thinking about window shopping online and using up a website's bandwidth with no intention of buying anything.

 

Hosting is not cheap.

I am done homeschooling in a year.

 

 

But SWB, if there is any way my daughter and son in law can homeschool our grandson, I will be purchasing First Language Lesson, Ordinary Parent's Guide, Well Trained Mind, Writing with Ease, Story of the World, and some others.

 

The other thing many of us do is have influence over New to Homeschooling parents. Just this year a mom who consulted with me ended up getting Story of the World, First Language Lessons, and Writing with Ease for her youngsters to take back to Egypt with her. It is going so famously that several of the other medical professionals they work with who have young children to homeschool are buying them when they get home on break. (Unfortunately, they cannot have anything shipped in from the States due to some unhappiness between the U.S. government and the Egyptian government who pretty much confiscates packages from the U.S. at this point. Grrr!)

 

I know I am not the only one to do this either.

 

So yes, we do consume Susan's money through this website, but I think probably many of us have also been voluntary salesmen for Peace Hill too.

Edited March 18, 2017 by FaithManor

[FaithManor]

I agree so much with buy local. We have two hardware stores - mom and pop - the we frequent for all of our sandpaper, adhesives, small hardware, and paint for 4H. We love the proprietors and some of the employees have worked there for so long it appears they know everything! They are the super geniuses of hardware, and when I take a drawing in there, "Well the kids are building x,y,z and need a coupling that will go from this end to that end and here are the dimensions", they know exactly what I need and go get it. This is not customer service or knowledge I would get at Menards, Home Depot, or Lowes. So I am very happy to pay a little bit extra per component for the great service and know how.

 

My brother on the hand...The great cheapskate of the family will spend hours trying to figure out how skin a flea for its tallow so to speak, leave projects unfinished for days, weeks, even a month in order to save up all the little things he needs so the gas money spent to make a run to the city is still a "savings" vs. buying local.

 

To each his own, but if I can find it here and spend in this county, then I do it.

[StaceyinLA]

NVM

Edited March 18, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[MamaBearTeacher]

I do think it is better to buy local for many reasons that have already been stated. Still, at what point do our shopping habits become charity and might it be better to give the money we save to an actual charity? isn't capitalism getting the best product/service for the best price and local businesses have to compete. I know it is hard for them to compete with big boxes and Amazon but should we go to them when we can get a better price/ product to serve our needs elsewhere. if we go to them instead out of pity, this is not capitalism and not sustainable. Or, should we do away with capitalism?

 

I don't think it is really bad to ie. go into a store, look around and not buy. you make the store look busier and more popular and that attracts more people. And one day you buy and that is more likely to happen than if you never walked in in the first place.

[StaceyinLA]

At an independent and popular burger joint we went to last summer, when the server brought our drinks, she tipped the tray in my direction and spilled my drink all over my lap.

What would you have done? I was gasping, shocked, and standing by the time it all had stopped dripping, I nervously laughed. She felt dumb over it, brought lots of napkins and a fresh drink while we continued to sit.

Food was brought after a while. Meanwhile, my leather and suede flipflops were stained and ruined, my shorts were stained, it wasn't looking too good for my purse and part of my top was wet and stained.

At the end when our bill was brought, she hadn't given us a free drink, free fries, free anything.

I was sticky, still wet, and feeling too miffed toward her to say anything polite. I know it was an accident, but where was my compensation? My dh left her ZERO tip.

What was wrong with us that we didn't get up and walk out when the spilling happened? We were hungry!

This is definitely a crappy thing to have happen, but it WAS an accident. Accidents do happen. Once when we were out to dinner, our waiter spilled a frozen margarita in my niece's lap (not a child, just to clarify). She wiped up to the best of her ability (the waiter brought plenty of napkins and towels), ordered another drink (which he brought free of charge of course), and we visited, ordered dinner and then tipped him for his service. He was mortified that it happened, still waited on us and provided good service otherwise. I mean dang - it's not like he did it on purpose. I just don't see anyone ever catching a break. We're all just human. Edited March 18, 2017 by StaceyinLA

[creekland]

I do think it is better to buy local for many reasons that have already been stated. Still, at what point do our shopping habits become charity and might it be better to give the money we save to an actual charity?

 

...

 

Or, should we do away with capitalism?

 

I don't think it is really bad to ie. go into a store, look around and not buy. you make the store look busier and more popular and that attracts more people. And one day you buy and that is more likely to happen than if you never walked in in the first place.

 

I don't think there's any point for anyone giving to charity over buying something they planned to buy.  Charity donations are separate and above and beyond any spending we want to do.  Remember those days during the recession when so many companies "Did the right thing!" and cancelled Christmas parties, etc?  Think of how many people who didn't get to work at those parties - or supply things for those parties, etc - who probably were expecting that income since those were regular occurrences.  Instead... assuming they needed their income... they had to turn to charity - never a better solution!  Keep the economy going instead!

 

And yes, I think capitalism has some really nasty effects that go along with it.  Do away with it completely?  No.  Significant checks on it (usually in the form of taxes and regulations) to try to keep things fair to humans and our planet rather than "get me more money at all costs!"?  Definitely needed.

 

I agree with your last statement - no one has argued otherwise that I recall.

[FaithManor]

I don't think there's any point for anyone giving to charity over buying something they planned to buy. Charity donations are separate and above and beyond any spending we want to do. Remember those days during the recession when so many companies "Did the right thing!" and cancelled Christmas parties, etc? Think of how many people who didn't get to work at those parties - or supply things for those parties, etc - who probably were expecting that income since those were regular occurrences. Instead... assuming they needed their income... they had to turn to charity - never a better solution! Keep the economy going instead!

 

And yes, I think capitalism has some really nasty effects that go along with it. Do away with it completely? No. Significant checks on it (usually in the form of taxes and regulations) to try to keep things fair to humans and our planet rather than "get me more money at all costs!"? Definitely needed.

 

I agree with your last statement - no one has argued otherwise that I recall.

Thinking the same. Restaurants, caterers, bakeries, florists,....

[FaithManor]

And about those Christmas parties!

 

Dh and his colleagues have for the past couple of years planned little get togethers, potluck, do all the work themselves.

 

Each year management has gotten wind of it, show up and eat a ton of food, insist on making little speeches, and in these speeches basically congratulate themselves on providing such a great party for their people!!

 

Makes my head explode.

 

Next year they get their up and comings. The team agreed to keep all their communication off their work laptops which are monitored as well as work cell phones. Private cell phones and texts only. They are meeting off site at a restaurant and splitting the tab. No more egos ruining the party.

 

Good grief. Sometimes I think management at his company is comprised of exclusively "Sheldons" from Big Bang Theory.

[Word Nerd]

I was recently pretty excited when I found the same jeans I loved from my Stitch Fix for 1/4 of the price at Poshmark (new w/o tags at that!). It's perplexing to me that some may believe it was wrong for me to shop for a better deal while considering what Stitch Fix items I wanted to keep or send back and that by trying the items on I was somehow obligated to buy them from Stitch Fix or not at all, but I respect that we all have to follow our own convictions.

 

Sometimes I purchase from the stores (online or B&M) where I tried on or looked at items, and sometimes I don't. Dressing rooms are standard in stores that sell clothing. They aren't a special service at all. I can't even remember the last time a salesperson helped me with anything, much less spent time providing a custom service of some kind except at the meat counter.

[Catwoman]

I was recently pretty excited when I found the same jeans I loved from my Stitch Fix for 1/4 of the price at Poshmark (new w/o tags at that!). It's perplexing to me that some may believe it was wrong for me to shop for a better deal while considering what Stitch Fix items I wanted to keep or send back and that by trying the items on I was somehow obligated to buy them from Stitch Fix or not at all, but I respect that we all have to follow our own convictions.

 

Sometimes I purchase from the stores (online or B&M) where I tried on or looked at items, and sometimes I don't. Dressing rooms are standard in stores that sell clothing. They aren't a special service at all. I can't even remember the last time a salesperson helped me with anything, much less spent time providing a custom service of some kind except at the meat counter.

Also, it is the salesperson's JOB to help customers. They don't expect everyone to buy.

 

People have talked about commission salespeople and how we owe them a sale if they help us, because they could have been helping someone else. But a big part of being a good salesperson is that they give every customer equal attention because they are developing relationships with those them and hoping that those customers will remember them the next time they visit the store. I don't know anyone in sales who is bitter if a customer doesn't make an immediate purchase. It's just part of the job. And store owners know that it's all about getting the customers to visit regularly, so maybe they'll have to help a customer five times before they get one sale, but it's all part of doing business.

[creekland]

How many times do we have to repeat that it's not normal shopping that folks are talking about? (sigh)

 

The issues are when you go to Store A (esp when it's a mom and pop owned, small, local store), spend their time and effort trying things on KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME that you have NO INTENTION of buying from them, but going home and buying online instead from a store that didn't have to spend anything on services, so you can get the item at a lower price.

 

For all those who think store owners don't care about these folks, perhaps it's time you added some of these store owners in your inner circle - or ask those who have closed.

 

No store owner I know minds normal shoppers - whether they buy or not.

 

Store workers probably don't care, though those who get commissions (not typical with small mom and pop places) probably also don't like the first group.

[Catwoman]

How many times do we have to repeat that it's not normal shopping that folks are talking about? (sigh)

 

The issues are when you go to Store A (esp when it's a mom and pop owned, small, local store), spend their time and effort trying things on KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME that you have NO INTENTION of buying from them, but going home and buying online instead from a store that didn't have to spend anything on services, so you can get the item at a lower price.

 

For all those who think store owners don't care about these folks, perhaps it's time you added some of these store owners in your inner circle - or ask those who have closed.

 

No store owner I know minds normal shoppers - whether they buy or not.

 

Store workers probably don't care, though those who get commissions (not typical with small mom and pop places) probably also don't like the first group.

The thing is, most of the time we don't go into a small local store looking for an exact item. We might know we need a new blender, but we don't have anything specific in mind, so we go to some stores and look at them. After choosing a particular model, I think it's perfectly normal to wonder if you're getting a good price for it, and popping on to Amazon or another online store to compare prices.

 

If the local store's price is markedly higher for the exact same item, I'm willing to bet that most of us would end up ordering from Amazon. Many of us would also tell the store owner that Amazon (or Best Buy or wherever) is cheaper and we don't want to spend that much extra to buy it in their store.

 

If the price is within a few dollars or we need the item immediately, the local store will probably end up getting the sale, but I don't think it's fair to call people unethical if they don't want to pay twice the price for something just to shop locally.

[creekland]

The thing is, most of the time we don't go into a small local store looking for an exact item. 

 

Right.  So right there folks should realize what is being talked about are not these situations.  Therefore, no problem.  Case closed.

[38carrots]

How many times do we have to repeat that it's not normal shopping that folks are talking about? (sigh)

 

The issues are when you go to Store A (esp when it's a mom and pop owned, small, local store), spend their time and effort trying things on KNOWING AHEAD OF TIME that you have NO INTENTION of buying from them, but going home and buying online instead from a store that didn't have to spend anything on services, so you can get the item at a lower price.

 

For all those who think store owners don't care about these folks, perhaps it's time you added some of these store owners in your inner circle - or ask those who have closed.

 

No store owner I know minds normal shoppers - whether they buy or not.

 

Store workers probably don't care, though those who get commissions (not typical with small mom and pop places) probably also don't like the first group.

 

Do you think a mom and pop store would rather I didn't come in at all? Their entire existence depends on someone still willing to go to their overpriced shop.

 

If they are unhappy with people wondering into their store, what are they doing running a store?

[EmseB]

So yes, we do consume Susan's money through this website, but I think probably many of us have also been voluntary salesmen for Peace Hill too.

Yes, that was my point. Many companies offer amazing services that cost them money knowing that not every person who darkens their door and consumes those services will spend money at their store. They count it as a cost of doing business. Running a store front with sales people is expensive. So is hosting a website. You're going to get people comparison shopping across all platforms.

[Reefgazer]

I wouldn't say so; it's called "shopping around" in my neck of the woods.

Is it unethical to go to a b&m store and shop for something, maybe even try it on, discuss with the salesperson, decide it costs too much, don't purchase the item, then go to a different b&m store, see the same thing for cheaper and buy it there?

In other words, once you've used the first store's services you are ethically obligated to purchase the thing from them if you decide to purchase it?

 

[creekland]

Do you think a mom and pop store would rather I didn't come in at all? Their entire existence depends on someone still willing to go to their overpriced shop.

 

If they are unhappy with people wondering into their store, what are they doing running a store?

 

Evidently I'm being completely unclear.  Seems like it's time for me to be done with this thread... I suspect (hope?) enough people are able to understand even if everyone isn't as I can't figure out at the moment how to reword things.

[Catwoman]

Evidently I'm being completely unclear. Seems like it's time for me to be done with this thread... I suspect (hope?) enough people are able to understand even if everyone isn't as I can't figure out at the moment how to reword things.

My impression was that you were saying that if I go online and I see Item X, Model #123 at Amazon.com for $50.00, it's unethical for me to go to to the local mom and pop store to see that exact same Item X, Model #123 and ask for more information about it or to try it on or to ask for a demonstration of how it works, unless I intend to buy that item from the mom and pop store.

 

The problem is that when I get to the mom and pop store, even if I intend to purchase from them, may turn out to have Item X, Model #123 priced at $100.00, which is twice the price offered on Amazon. Do you think I am still ethically obligated to buy that item at the mom and pop store?

[TechWife]

What about house shopping and going to open houses? I don't feel obligated to buy every house I look at. Lots of people attend open houses just for the sole purpose of being nosey.

 

-

I apologize for sticking in the post about the schools. I thought I had opened a different thread when I did that. I'm blaming Dayquil.

 

In the case of real estate, the relationship is with your realtor. You should pick one relator to work with. If you are listing a house, you have to sign an exclusive agreement with a realtor. If you are buying a house, there is no such agreement. However, it is unethical to look at the same property with different realtors. If a realtor shows you a property and you want to buy it, then you should go through that realtor. If you go to an open house without a realtor, you should freely give your realtor's name to the seller's realtor when asked (and they will ask). The brokers have some checks and balances to try to make sure that the realtor/client relationship is exclusive, but they aren't always perfect. 

[Bluegoat]

My impression was that you were saying that if I go online and I see Item X, Model #123 at Amazon.com for $50.00, it's unethical for me to go to to the local mom and pop store to see that exact same Item X, Model #123 and ask for more information about it or to try it on or to ask for a demonstration of how it works, unless I intend to buy that item from the mom and pop store.

 

The problem is that when I get to the mom and pop store, even if I intend to purchase from them, may turn out to have Item X, Model #123 priced at $100.00, which is twice the price offered on Amazon. Do you think I am still ethically obligated to buy that item at the mom and pop store?

 

No, she is saying if you get there and see the item is too expensive for you, and you want to buy from Amazon, you should go home and do so, not ask the people in the store to let you try theirs out or for other information.  You can ask about price and attached services, that is part of comparing. 

 

Part of the reason Amazon is so cheap is that they don't give you expert advice, run a store front, or let you try stuff on before you purchase it.

[Catwoman]

No, she is saying if you get there and see the item is too expensive for you, and you want to buy from Amazon, you should go home and do so, not ask the people in the store to let you try theirs out or for other information. You can ask about price and attached services, that is part of comparing.

 

Part of the reason Amazon is so cheap is that they don't give you expert advice, run a store front, or let you try stuff on before you purchase it.

I guess I'll have to disagree with that. :)

 

If I take the time to drive to a store to look at an item and I need more information about it, I'm going to ask the salesperson for that information. If the staff is helpful, I'll go there again the next time I need something -- but if their price is still twice as high as it is at an online vendor, they won't get that sale, either.

 

I'm all in favor of shopping locally when it's practical, but I'm pretty confident that paying twice the price for the exact same item isn't something most people are willing to do.

[creekland]

No, she is saying if you get there and see the item is too expensive for you, and you want to buy from Amazon, you should go home and do so, not ask the people in the store to let you try theirs out or for other information.  You can ask about price and attached services, that is part of comparing. 

 

Part of the reason Amazon is so cheap is that they don't give you expert advice, run a store front, or let you try stuff on before you purchase it.

 

Mostly.  The folks at the store I personally know of who are doing things already know the price at both places (since it's not difficult to find suggested price or typical shop prices online) and head to the shop already knowing they aren't going to buy it there, plus the price certainly isn't 50%-100% higher.  It's closer to 10-20% higher.  They are items that they try on, find their fit and color, often take pics of the box to be sure they get an exact match, then leave.  Many times in their chit chat with each other they detail out exactly what they are doing.  To the owner, it's quite aggravating, but she keeps her cool 'cause you don't want to turn off potential buyers - instead she mainly vents to friends - which would be how I know about it.

 

But folks won't be able to do that much longer.  The shop is planning on closing soon.  The owners can't make enough to justify keeping it open.  Users will have to find a different place to do this with.  I'm not quite sure where as this shop was the only one I know of in the area to carry these exact brands.  The owners are contemplating keeping an online presence.  They can compete with that.  They just can't compete when they have to pay store frontage rent and similar.  Time will tell what they choose - whether trying online or just getting out of retail entirely and going with a different job.

[Catwoman]

Mostly. The folks at the store I personally know of who are doing things already know the price at both places (since it's not difficult to find suggested price or typical shop prices online) and head to the shop already knowing they aren't going to buy it there, plus the price certainly isn't 50%-100% higher. It's closer to 10-20% higher. They are items that they try on, find their fit and color, often take pics of the box to be sure they get an exact match, then leave. Many times in their chit chat with each other they detail out exactly what they are doing. To the owner, it's quite aggravating, but she keeps her cool 'cause you don't want to turn off potential buyers - instead she mainly vents to friends - which would be how I know about it.

 

But folks won't be able to do that much longer. The shop is planning on closing soon. The owners can't make enough to justify keeping it open. Users will have to find a different place to do this with. I'm not quite sure where as this shop was the only one I know of in the area to carry these exact brands. The owners are contemplating keeping an online presence. They can compete with that. They just can't compete when they have to pay store frontage rent and similar. Time will tell what they choose - whether trying online or just getting out of retail entirely and going with a different job.

It would be totally worth it to me to pay the extra 10-20% if the small store was giving me extra service.

[heartlikealion]

I don't think there's any point for anyone giving to charity over buying something they planned to buy.  Charity donations are separate and above and beyond any spending we want to do.  Remember those days during the recession when so many companies "Did the right thing!" and cancelled Christmas parties, etc?  Think of how many people who didn't get to work at those parties - or supply things for those parties, etc - who probably were expecting that income since those were regular occurrences.  Instead... assuming they needed their income... they had to turn to charity - never a better solution!  Keep the economy going instead!

 

And yes, I think capitalism has some really nasty effects that go along with it.  Do away with it completely?  No.  Significant checks on it (usually in the form of taxes and regulations) to try to keep things fair to humans and our planet rather than "get me more money at all costs!"?  Definitely needed.

 

I agree with your last statement - no one has argued otherwise that I recall.

 

Except for those things like Amazon Smile and events where a percentage of the proceeds go to XYZ charity. Or even certain items in stores like the stuffed animals by the register at Kohl's (Pattington Bear, Curious George, Madeline). I think the matching books are labeled charity as well. I noticed the charity description on the stuffed toys in an online description once. Granted these might be very very small percentages, but they are items people might be wanting to buy already (like dinner at a restaurant where proceeds to go to a charity).

 

I guess you could look at it more than one way for canceling Christmas parties. If the company can't afford it, then I don't see why they should have it. They just shouldn't let the catering people, etc. know last minute. In fact, unless they use the same places year after year, it shouldn't even be on the books so no one to disappoint.

[Guest]

When I was pregnant with Captain, there was one store in particular I would go to to check out car seats and strollers. We bought Captain's car seat there but opted to buy his first stroller from an online retailer because the b&m store didn't carry that particular model. When we went back to buy another stroller, the manager was quite rude and started venting about how she and her staff spent more than 6 hours working with me and I STILL bought online. WHAAT??? I pointed out the store didn't have the stroller I originally wanted, and we did buy the carseat so the time spent wasn't wasted. She did apologize when we checked out with the new stroller. She said she just gets so burned up when people come in to check things out with no intention to buy. While I can understand that, every time I have gone into this shop, I'm teaching or correcting the salespeople about the products. Thus I don't feel bad about purchasing online after seeing things in person there. (I wouldn't do that except they were telling other families incorrect information. LATCH weight limits are not 60lbs, people!) I don't feel like I'm getting exceptional service or knowledge in exchange for extra cost.

 

I went back a few weeks ago to try out diaper bags as my current choice was too small. I spent 4 hours packing all the styles I was interested in and trying them out. Manager wasn't there that day, thank goodness, because I was very upfront with my saleslady that I wasn't buying from them. The saleslady was fine with it. They know I'm coming back in a few months for Captain's new CLEK!

 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Paradox5

[38carrots]

Evidently I'm being completely unclear.  Seems like it's time for me to be done with this thread... I suspect (hope?) enough people are able to understand even if everyone isn't as I can't figure out at the moment how to reword things.

 

 I think I understand the argument that you are making and the situations that you have in mind. However, I think my argument still stands.

[regentrude]

This all depends upon the quality of local community you want.  Spending locally keeps more money local whether it's food, clothing, shelter, entertainment, or knick knacks.  Spending elsewhere supports that community, not yours.  If you're fine letting yours die out (as far as it depends upon you), then there's definitely no problem I suppose.

 

As for us... we just got back from our personal Taco Thursday - getting scrumptious Mexican food from a very local small Mexican restaurant, buying soft pretzels from a local place, getting wine from our local winery, and some pies (for a belated pie day) from a local bakery.  I could have gotten similar things from Big Chain Store and/or Taco Bell for less, but why?  I honestly like supporting local instead - and yes - it cost me more (esp since we tip well too), but it's money well spent IMO.

 

It's all a matter of how one feels about community TBH.

 

Nice sentiment, but in many communities this is a very theoretical concept. It gets more complicated when the issue is not identical items to buy locally or online, but when the reality is that there are no identical items. 

 

I am getting quite tired of the "buy local" mantra and the moral judgments associated with it, like the bolded in your post.Especially when "buy local" is touted so much around Christmas, when I have not been able to purchase anything I want as a present for a family member locally - not because I can't afford, or am unwilling to pay, the higher price, but because nobody carries the things I would want to buy (as soon as it goes beyond food and basics.)

Do you think people should lower their expectations and just buy what is available locally so they can support businesses that don't offer what shoppers actually would have wanted?

 

You mention the local winery. We have local wineries, and we don't like the wine they produce. We prefer different grape varietals that don't grow in the local climate. Should we buy their wine anyway? 

We rarely eat out, because my own cooking is much better than most of the restaurant food in town. Should we patronize local restaurants anyway?

 

I have lived in a society where my purchasing choices were extremely limited and your wardrobe dictated by whatever item was available in stores. If you needed a sweater, you'd hope they have one or two sweaters in your size. I don't think it is a viable economic model to buy whatever is available in the community just so the community is supported - it goes both ways. If businesses are not offering the items shoppers want, shoppers will not purchase. Often, purchasing something locally feels more like an act of charity than a business exchange.

Edited March 21, 2017 by regentrude