Successful High Schoolers: your middle school hindsight needed please!

[Maryam]

My question this time is not about my high schooler, but about my 6th grade dd. She is bright, motivated, and needs to be challenged. I need a plan for middle school to best prepare her for success in high school and the ability to take AP's from ninth. I'd like past experiences of current high schoolers (hindsight is 20/20!), hence the reason I posted it here and not in the k-8 forums. She is currently doing very well in pre-Algebra (Saxon 8/7). For 7th and 8th, what do you recommend for Science and History / Geography? And to best prepare for high school writing, Bravewriter or WTMA or any other suggestions? (She did IEW). Thanks in advance for your input.

[Julie of KY]

Well, I took a very laid back approach to middle school. I did challenging math (AoPS) at whatever pace my kids could do - one was in advanced AoPS courses in 8th, one in geometry by 8th and one in prealgebra in 8th. I did Brave Writer, but was very loose about doing very much writing. LOTS of reading about history and science in preparation for more formal science. I let them follow a lot of rabbit trails to learn whatever they wanted. I challenged their thinking and developed a love of learning rather than doing the most rigorous curriculum out there for the most part. My high schoolers are doing very wellin very challenging courses now.

[Maryam]

That is so encouraging! Did you follow WTM recommendations for your science and history readings? Did you outsource at all?

Edited November 4, 2016 by Maryam

[snowbeltmom]

In elementary and middle school, I had four goals for my kids:  develop strong mathematical problem solving skills, develop writing skills, read high quality literature, and have enough time in their school days to explore their interests. 

 

I used AoPS books and/or classes for math and Write at Home for writing.  Every other subject was interest-led. 

 

Good luck as you plan out the middle school years!

[8filltheheart]

My answer is similar to Julie's. I also didn't set out with a goal of APs in 9th. We simply progressed at their pace.

 

Fwiw, I could not have anticipated what my kids would be accomplishing in high school when they were in 6th grade. My current college student didn't take his first physics class until 8th grade, but graduated from high school with multiple college physics courses completed. My current high school sr didn't start Russian until 9th grade, but is one of 5 students representing the US in the International Russian Olympiad in Moscow.

 

My kids love learning and their high school paths are directed by them. Middle school was about nurturing their interests and letting them explore subjects. High school for us does not have a firm 4 yr plan. It is fluid. They have a minimum of core subjects they have to study, but even within those there is a lot of flexibility. But, honestly, my kids want to take more and I often have to limit what they take bc they want to take on too much.

[J-rap]

We spent middle school years developing good work habits, staying focused on whatever level they were at, exploring lots of things (both academic and extra-curricular), being creative, and having fun.  Honestly, we didn't have any more goals than that!

[Maryam]

This is all so reassuring because upon seeing some threads about number of AP courses required by many universities, I began wondering if I'm doing something wrong or not doing "enough". Thank you all so much! As simple as it may seem, this advice is all invaluable!

Edited November 4, 2016 by Maryam

[regentrude]

We did very relaxed middle school. Rigorous math (AoPS), but no scripted "curriculum" in any of the other subjects. Interest led history and science. Informal writing instruction; never used a writing curriculum. Lots of books.

My DD took her first college course at age 13 and graduated high school with 32 college credits from a 4 year university. We did not do anything special in preparation during middle school.

Edited November 4, 2016 by regentrude

[charlotteb]

I have one high school graduate, one high school junior, and one 8th grader currently.  My two that have been in high school have both taken dual credit classes from the community college and have done very well!  I think the middle school(logic)  years are great transition time.  We have used them to focus on:

 

1. Introduction to quality literature. We have followed the WTM route and read abridged versions of several classics in the logic stage.  Reading an easier version of the Iliad or Beowulf years earlier definitely makes it easier to read the real versions in high school! I start having my kids answer the questions that WTM recommends for literature analysis. 

 

2. Writing.  I really enjoy using the "Institute for Excellence in Writing" or IEW.  I don't start my kids on it until 6th grade and then we dive head in!  It looks so simple, but works so well.  Both of my older kids' college professors have been very impressed with their writing abilities. DS's English 102 teacher wanted to meet me so she could congratulate me on a job well done! :)

 

3. For DS (my first), we didn't start Story of the World until he was in 4th grade and then continued it until he was in 7th grade. We did a year of Geography in 8th grade and used "Mapping the World by Heart" and also worked to memorize the place of the countries and all the capitals. DS was able to transition very nicely into History of the Ancient World in high school. 

For my older DD (now hs junior), she did the geography with DS in 5th grade and then we used "Mystery of History" in 6th-8th. She has also had a great transition to HOAW.  Younger DD (8th grade now) has used MOH along with her older sister and is now in her second time through it. 

 

4. I have used Apologia Science with all my kids and love it! They have way more understanding of science than most kids their age.

 

5. I have placed a huge emphasis on note taking skills in middle school. I rented a video series called "How to be a Super Star Student" from the library when DS was in 8th grade years ago.  We have used its note taking methods ever since. 

 

6.  I used Math-u-See math with DS and both DDs have used Saxon.  DS is very hands-on and math has always been a struggle for him. MUS suited him well, with its manipulatives and slower pace. But Saxon is by far my favorite for its great amount of review! I have a goal to have my kids in Algebra I by 9th grade!  Since I encourage dual credit in high school, they have graduated high school with more  math than their peers.

[The Girls' Mom]

I've graduated one, and have two graduating this year.  Two have been successful in all of their college classes (some DE), one hasn't taken any yet but did do very well on her ACT.  One of my seniors is acing college Biology and is headed into a STEM field next fall at college.  

 

All that to say...we had a two year middle school for the younger ones and a normal 3 year for the oldest.  It was pretty relaxed.  From our experiences and looking back with what I know now, I would say the focus should be on math and writing well.  

 

Make sure that they have the math foundations down, and it will serve them well in both higher mathematics and science.  Make sure they can write coherently and know how to put together a paper and they will do well in english, history and science.  

 

We did not do formal science with the younger two until high school.  They did better than my oldest that trudged through two years of Apologia in middle school, plus they didn't hate science by the time they got to high school.   

[wapiti]

I have a goal to have my kids in Algebra I by 9th grade!  Since I encourage dual credit in high school, they have graduated high school with more  math than their peers.

 

It might help to clarify what you mean.  Algebra 1 is right on grade level for 9th, not ahead, so without knowing more, it doesn't quite make sense that such a student would be able to graduate with more math than their peers, regardless of how much of the math is via DE instruction.  ETA, might that be because DE offers a faster pace?

Edited November 4, 2016 by wapiti

[Woodland Mist Academy]

My biggest regrets involve how much weight I gave to what others had done or were doing.  ;)  

 

Sometimes that resulted in doing too little, sometimes that resulted in doing too much. 

 

Never lose sight of the child in front of you. 

[wapiti]

This is all so reassuring because upon seeing some threads about number of AP courses required by many universities, I began wondering if I'm doing something wrong or not doing "enough".

 

FWIW, my kids attend B&M schools, and I wonder something similar, at least at the high school level.  I am under the impression that (1) numbers of APs are NOT relevant for non-selective universities and increasingly more relevant the more selective the school, although (2) at some point on this vague continuum, the rigor of the student's schedule becomes "enough" for that bar to be met and the selective adcoms start looking for other qualities in the app.  I'm also under the impression that adcoms know which APs are on the less rigorous side, i.e. they're not all equivalent for this purpose.

 

I have been trying to ferret out what it takes, in terms of APs, to get a "most rigorous" designation by the particular high school and have been told (by someone else) that I won't be able find out because that's "not healthy."  But, I suspect some students harbor a gray area where in the hindsight of a selective college app experience, and with some maturity that comes with age, they might wish they had taken just a couple more APs (or DE), perhaps challenged themselves a wee bit more.  (I saw this happen with a very bright relative, who was guided by family not to take APs due to extra work involved, and then as a senior realized that he could only aim for a level of selectivity lower than what he was otherwise suited for.)

 

What I have looked for in my kids' middle schools is primarily math and writing instruction that meets their needs and develops their abilities.  I went so far as to switch my two 8th graders in the middle of last year because I wasn't happy.  (I'm happy now with what their getting.)  As for APs, my current high schooler will not have any until junior year, though she will have several (5+) "honors" courses prior to that.

[charlotteb]

It might help to clarify what you mean.  Algebra 1 is right on grade level for 9th, not ahead, so without knowing more, it doesn't quite make sense that such a student would be able to graduate with more math than their peers, regardless of how much of the math is via DE instruction.  ETA, might that be because DE offers a faster pace?

Yes, that's exactly why. Dual Enrollment classes only last one semester at the college but count for one year of high school credit.  So once they started taking DE at the college, they were able to move quicker through the other maths.

[Maryam]

Great input! Keep posting; I'm all ears!

Edited November 4, 2016 by Maryam

[regentrude]

Yes, that's exactly why. Dual Enrollment classes only last one semester at the college but count for one year of high school credit.  So once they started taking DE at the college, they were able to move quicker through the other maths.

 

I would like to offer a word of caution about taking high school level math courses at college.

Colleges do offer high school level math classes, and those are usually taken for remediation by struggling math students who were unable to place into college level math. I would not consider it a beneficial situation for a strong high school student to be in a math class with students who often strongly dislike math, are behind in math, and will receive instruction aimed at fixing the worst problems without going into conceptual depth.

 

College level math classes - no problem. But a college class aimed at adult college students who need 10th grade math remediation will not offer a high quality of math instruction.

[wapiti]

Yes, that's exactly why. Dual Enrollment classes only last one semester at the college but count for one year of high school credit.  So once they started taking DE at the college, they were able to move quicker through the other maths.

 

Ok.  So, for the sake of delineating what is more than their peers, what grade/math did they start DE and what level of math did they finish with DE?  Calc 1, 2, 3?  I am being specific because, while this is *only* relevant above a certain level of college selectivity, at that level, some calc is usually expected, while calc 3 is less common.

 

ETA, regarding the OP's middle school question, this is where the middle school math sequence comes in.  For the bright, capable student who may later wish to shoot for selective colleges down the road, algebra 1 prior to high school can be useful because then the sequence allows for AP calc by senior year.  The critical caveat is that math level in middle school is a function of multiple factors, ability, quality of foundation from prior instruction, and the pace of the current math program.

 

Adding more for OP, that for the bright, capable student, middle school may also be a nice time to start adding more depth to further develop the student's math talent, particularly with regard to problem solving.  Saxon may leave something to be desired in this department.  If the student might be interested in MathCounts, that would be one way to go about it in middle school, and/or look toward participating in the AMCs in high school.  There are many possible paths toward adding in this enrichment.

Edited November 4, 2016 by wapiti

[Kassia]

Ok.  So, for the sake of delineating what is more than their peers, what grade/math did they start DE and what level of math did they finish with DE?  Calc 1, 2, 3?  I am being specific because, while this is *only* relevant above a certain level of college selectivity, at that level, some calc is usually expected, while calc 3 is less common.

 

ETA, regarding the OP's middle school question, this is where the middle school math sequence comes in.  For the bright, capable student who may later wish to shoot for selective colleges down the road, algebra 1 prior to high school can be useful because then the sequence allows for AP calc by senior year.  The critical caveat is that math level in middle school is a function of multiple factors, ability, quality of foundation from prior instruction, and the pace of the current math program.

 

Adding more for OP, that for the bright, capable student, middle school may also be a nice time to start adding more depth to further develop the student's math talent, particularly with regard to problem solving.  Saxon may leave something to be desired in this department.  If the student might be interested in MathCounts, that would be one way to go about it in middle school, and/or look toward participating in the AMCs in high school.  There are many possible paths toward adding in this enrichment.

 

One of my sons started DE in his junior year and took Calc 1, Calc 2, Calc 3, and Differential Equations (one class per semester) by the time he graduated from high school.  My daughter will probably do the same.  

 

Our public high school offers Calc 3 for high school seniors as well.  It is not DE, though, so no college credit.

[Hilltopmom]

IN retrospect, we should've started outsourcing earlier. And more writing instruction, even though he hated it.

 

He responds really well to a teacher who is not me:)

 

It's been a big jump now in 11th to go from zero outsourced classes last year ( other than one 6 wk BW class) to DE classes plus 3 online classes & an internship! Learning to juggle the workload & overlapping assignments has had a learning curve for sure.

Looks like he's got the hang of it now, but it's been a rough fall.

[snowbeltmom]

This is all so reassuring because upon seeing some threads about number of AP courses required by many universities, I began wondering if I'm doing something wrong or not doing "enough". Thank you all so much! As simple as it may seem, this advice is all invaluable!

Fwiw, I don't think it is necessary for a homeschooler to take a slew of APs just because it seems that they are required by many universities.  Imo, it makes for a happier child (and a more interesting transcript) if the student takes classes based on interest (as much as possible).  If there is an AP class that promotes that interest, great!  If an AP does not exist in that interest area, I would forgo the AP class and focus on the interest.

 

I think homeschoolers are at an advantage when it comes to APs and college admissions for the simple reason that our kids, unlike the traditional schooled student, don't have to take a ton of APs in order to get the "most rigorous" box checked by a guidance counselor.

 

My oldest had 6 APs when he applied to colleges.  All, except for one, were in areas of interest. (I did make him take an English AP class even though he had absolutely no interest).  Instead of adding more APs to his transcript, he spent his time conducting research for three years that resulted in multiple award winning publications (he was not first author).  (He also had other outside validation in math with AMC and AIME scores.)  My middle only had two APs at the end of junior year, but he has an interesting transcript (along with top 1% SAT scores) that highlight his areas of academic interest that are outside the realm of the AP curriculum.  His transcript, despite few APs, also meets the standards of the highly selective schools.

 

Based solely on my family's experiences, APs are a great way to validate the homeschooled grades, but a large quantity of APs is not necessary.

[Shellydon]

Potter's School English 1 in 8th to prepare for writing

[madteaparty]

My biggest regrets involve how much weight I gave to what others had done or were doing. ;)

 

Sometimes that resulted in doing too little, sometimes that resulted in doing too much.

 

Never lose sight of the child in front of you.

Sing and preach.

And be wary that everyone succumbs to revisionism every once in a while :)

[daijobu]

BFSU for science in elementary and middle school.  dd successfully completed ap chem in 9th grade, and is doing well in ap bio now in 10th grade.

 

Also, very very strong math skills.  That will be the crutch that gets you through so many difficult STEM courses.  AoPS did the trick for us.  

[quark]

I have a kid who looks very STEM but is actually more of a Literature and Math nut. Makes sense because whenever he had free time those were the areas he gravitated the most towards. So I would say, in addition to the wonderful advice you have received, is to take note of what she does during her leisure hours.

 

Through trial and error I learned to make available plenty of resources and and not be in his way too much, just staying close (sometimes as co learner) in case he had questions or wanted a discussion buddy (he usually does). The magic of homeschooling is cultivating a close bond during the years you spend learning together. That is what I feel has been most successful about our homeschooling.

 

We definitely butt heads but we are also really close and I love that we have this gift. I love the time we spend in the car the most because that's when we listen to all our Great Courses and laugh/ discuss along or just turn it off and chat about other things. I feel like an old lady saying this and I am not that old and neither am I very experienced (plus we don't really know if DS is "successful" as in whatever that means to him) but I felt it important to suggest to not let things like sharing time together learning/ talking/ doing the important things slip by.

[quark]

Sorry, I missed your question about what to use. If you find that your DD thrives with a non-structured approach, we really liked using mass market books written in an engaging manner and targeted at an adult audience as our spines. Mark Kurlansky for example, was a hit here as were Bill Bryson, John Emsley, Simon Singh and a few others.

 

We thought The Economist magazine an excellent model for good writing!

[Mike in SA]

Our older DS chose to go over the top - way over the top.  He chose to study a college-level depth in middle school, and we supported that decision.  Grading, then, had to change quite a bit - participation grades (homework completion, errors corrected) and highly modified tests (we tested at MS "honors" level, though his studies far exceeded that).  Getting A's on tests was pathetically easy, but that wasn't the point.

 

Now, in high school, his foundation far exceeds that of his peers at the local B&M, as he has essentially seen much of the material at AP level, but his courses are mostly pre-AP level.

 

[JanetC]

I will pile on post #12, too.

 

Don't decide right now that the correct destination is "lots of AP's." Instead, start with "where is my child now?" And then, "What is the logical next step from here?"

 

What worked for one kid on this board may or may not be right for your individual situation.

[DocMom]

Bumping this up to see if anyone else would be willing to chime in?