If you're not sure about a measles vaccine, this is worth considering

[redheadmom]

Not the same sort of thing, but the Rubella vaccine has had a huge impact in preventing birth defects.

When I was pregnant with my first child, we discovered that my childhood MMR shots had basically worn off. I had no immunity left to any of them, especially rubella. My drs lectured me about staying away from sick people. Thankfully, all was well. However, with so many people avoiding the MMR shot, I worry about a resurgence of rubella like we have seen recently with measles and whooping cough.

[KungFuPanda]

I had mumps when I was 5. It was horrible. I remember coming down with it and recovering from it, but it don't remember ANY of my touch-n-go hospital stay. I also had a very mild case of chicken pox a year later, then a horrific case when I was in the 6th grade. I was sooooo sick, but not hospital sick. I'm glad my kids were spared all of that.

[creekland]

When I was pregnant with my first child, we discovered that my childhood MMR shots had basically worn off. I had no immunity left to any of them, especially rubella. 

 

I'm long past that stage of life, but your post has me wondering what updates to vaccines we adults should think about getting.  I do Tetanus and that came with Pertussis I believe (which I'm thankful for as both my mom and hubby caught that in the not too distant past - yuck!).  Hubby's tetanus update was "just" tetanus at the time due to that being "what they had."  We didn't think anything about it.

 

Are we supposed to do MMR and/or polio again too (at a certain age) due to immunity wearing off?

[ktgrok]

I'm long past that stage of life, but your post has me wondering what updates to vaccines we adults should think about getting.  I do Tetanus and that came with Pertussis I believe (which I'm thankful for as both my mom and hubby caught that in the not too distant past - yuck!).  Hubby's tetanus update was "just" tetanus at the time due to that being "what they had."  We didn't think anything about it.

 

Are we supposed to do MMR and/or polio again too (at a certain age) due to immunity wearing off?

 

I think that depends on if you had one dose or two, as a child. 

[StaceyinLA]

When I was pregnant with my first child, we discovered that my childhood MMR shots had basically worn off. I had no immunity left to any of them, especially rubella. My drs lectured me about staying away from sick people. Thankfully, all was well. However, with so many people avoiding the MMR shot, I worry about a resurgence of rubella like we have seen recently with measles and whooping cough.

My immunities had worn off as well. I don't know why this never makes people question whether or not the vaccines were working, because it's clear the protection isn't forever. I was vaccinated before college and pregnant THREE YEARS LATER, and didn't have immunities. At least one of my daughters that was vaccinated before college and pregnant within 3 years of that vaccine (well, booster), was NOT immune to rubella either.

 

The most recent measles outbreak was all in VACCINATED children, and plenty were under the age of 10, so it's not like it had been a really long time since they were vaccinated. As far as pertussis, if anyone would look at the FDA studies, they could see pertussis can easily be spread by people who have been vaccinated for it, without them even knowing they are sick.

 

And for those of us who had no issues from vaccines when we were kids, it's because we weren't getting 25 or more of them in our first year. I don't see how anyone can even put forth the argument that young babies' and kids' systems aren't able to handle viruses, but they are so pro-vaccine they'll inject them with 7 viruses at a time and not see how that could affect them at all.

[StaceyinLA]

I'd be interested to see a study on whether the resurgence of pertussis correlates to pushing adults to be vaccinated with Tdap. Since the FDA studies show those vaccinated can transmit pertussis with no symptoms, how many vaccinated adults are spreading this without even realizing it? And how many of those are new moms who have been pressured into having this vaccine during, or immediately after, pregnancy? The latter being especially scary since new moms would believe they were "protected" and could spread the disease to their tiny infants unknowingly.

Edited November 2, 2016 by StaceyinLA

[maize]

My immunities had worn off as well. I don't know why this never makes people question whether or not the vaccines were working, because it's clear the protection isn't forever. I was vaccinated before college and pregnant THREE YEARS LATER, and didn't have immunities. At least one of my daughters that was vaccinated before college and pregnant within 3 years of that vaccine (well, booster), was NOT immune to rubella either.

 

The most recent measles outbreak was all in VACCINATED children, and plenty were under the age of 10, so it's not like it had been a really long time since they were vaccinated. As far as pertussis, if anyone would look at the FDA studies, they could see pertussis can easily be spread by people who have been vaccinated for it, without them even knowing they are sick.

 

And for those of us who had no issues from vaccines when we were kids, it's because we weren't getting 25 or more of them in our first year. I don't see how anyone can even put forth the argument that young babies' and kids' systems aren't able to handle viruses, but they are so pro-vaccine they'll inject them with 7 viruses at a time and not see how that could affect them at all.

It is possible that you developed immunity from the vaccine and it wore off quickly, but it is also possible that you never actually developed immunity; not everyone who is vaccinated does. This is true of any vaccine. As long as almost everyone is vaccinated and almost all of those develop immunity it can be sufficient to stops a disease from circulating within a population.

[maize]

I'd be interested to see a study on whether the resurgence of pertussis correlates to pushing adults to be vaccinated with Tdap. Since the FDA studies show those vaccinated can transmit pertussis with no symptoms, how many vaccinated adults are spreading this without even realizing it? And how many of those are new moms who have been pressured into having this vaccine during, or immediately after, pregnancy? The latter being especially scary since new moms would believe they were "protected" and could spread the disease to their tiny infants unknowingly.

I'd like a link to this information from the FDA.

 

The pertussis vaccine being given to pregnant women is acellular--that is, it contains only specific portions of the cells of pertussis bacteria. I would like to know who has shown that these bits of a bacterium are somehow able to transform into whole living cells capable of causing infection. That would be a miraculous scientific breakthrough.

Edited November 2, 2016 by maize

[creekland]

I'd be interested to see a study on whether the resurgence of pertussis correlates to pushing adults to be vaccinated with Tdap. Since the FDA studies show those vaccinated can transmit pertussis with no symptoms, how many vaccinated adults are spreading this without even realizing it? And how many of those are new moms who have been pressured into having this vaccine during, or immediately after, pregnancy? The latter being especially scary since new moms would believe they were "protected" and could spread the disease to their tiny infants unknowingly.

 

I'd like to see a credible link too.

 

I agree that folks can be asymptomatic (no symptoms) with or without vaccines and still spread diseases since they don't know they have them, but I just spent a little bit of time on google trying to find stats of those with the vaccines who spread pertussis on and came up short.

 

There is this one layman friendly FAQ from the state of WA that states one is less likely to pass on the disease if vaccinated even if they end up with a mild case...

 

http://www.doh.wa.gov/YouandYourFamily/IllnessandDisease/WhoopingCough/WhoopingCoughFAQ

 

In general, if one is sick with a cough or similar, they ought to stay away from all high risk folks - period - until their illness is over.

[maize]

Ah, after reading Creekland's post I see we are discussing naturally acquired pertussis among vaccinated folks, not as I had thought pertussis acquired from the vaccine.

 

As she pointed out, people can be asymptomatic when infected and pass the infection along whether or not they are vaccinated. And there is plenty of evidence that infection rates are lower among vaccinated folks.

 

I'll be getting the vaccine this pregnancy with confidence that it is the best way to lower my baby's risk. One reason it is given during pregnancy is that the baby themself acquires some immunity from the mother.

Edited November 2, 2016 by maize

[TravelingChris]

The DTAP vaccine is not a live virus.  I know since I am not allowed to get live virus vaccines due to being on immunosuppressants.   In fact, my youngest had to have a delayed chickenpox vaccine at one point due to my medications at that time.  Then I was off of the strong immunosuppressants but have been back for a number of years again.  I was able to get the Dtap shot three years ago.

[wapiti]

On the pertussis issue, here is what I came across last year:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/maso/facm/pdfs/BSCOID/2013121112_BSCOID_Minutes.pdf (see page 6)

 

• Resurgence of Pertussis. As reported at the May 2013 BSC meeting, the recent resurgence in pertussis cases has been associated with waning immunity over time in persons who received the acellular pertussis vaccine (which is administered as the pertussis component of DTaP vaccine). However, a recent study suggests another explanation for decreased vaccine effectiveness: an increase in Bordetella pertussis isolates that lack pertactin (PRN)--a key antigen component of the acellular pertussis vaccine. A study that screened B. pertussis strains isolated between 1935 and 2012 for gene insertions that prevent production of PRN found significant increases in PRN-deficient isolates throughout the United States.2 The earliest PRN-deficient strain was isolated in 1994; by 2012, the percentage of PRN-deficient isolates was more than 50%.

 

To assess the clinical significance of these findings, CDC used an IgG anti-PRN ELISA and other assays (PCR amplification, sequencing, and Western blots) to characterize 752 B. pertussis strains isolated in 2012 from six Enhanced Pertussis Surveillance Sites3 and from epidemics in Washington and Vermont. Findings indicated that 85% of the isolates were PRN-deficient and vaccinated patients had significantly higher odds than unvaccinated patients of being infected with PRN-deficient strains. Moreover, when patients with up-to-date DTaP vaccinations were compared to unvaccinated patients, the odds of being infected with PRN-deficient strains increased, suggesting that PRN-bacteria may have a selective advantage in infecting DTaP-vaccinated persons

 

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm

 In response to concerns about the side effects of the whole cell pertussis vaccine, acellular vaccines were developed and replaced the use of whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the U.S. and other countries in the 1990s; however, whole-cell pertussis vaccines are still used in many other countries.

none of the vaccinated animals developed outward signs of pertussis disease after being exposed to B. pertussis. However, there were differences in other aspects of the immune response.  Animals that received an acellular pertussis vaccine had the bacteria in their airways for up to six weeks and were able to spread the infection to unvaccinated animals. In contrast, animals that received whole-cell vaccine cleared the bacteria within three weeks.

 

This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by wapiti

[Lady Florida.]

Not the same sort of thing, but the Rubella vaccine has had a huge impact in preventing birth defects.

 

 

When I was pregnant with my first child, we discovered that my childhood MMR shots had basically worn off. I had no immunity left to any of them, especially rubella. My drs lectured me about staying away from sick people

 

When I was going through fertility treatments 20 years ago, I was asked about childhood diseases. Polio and smallpox were the only vaccines available when I was a kid - in my day (she said brandishing her cane) you did have to get the disease to get the immunity. My mother thought I had both measles and rubella (called German measles back then) but the titers I had showed no immunity to rubella. I was required to get the vaccine before beginning any fertility treatment.

[FaithManor]

 

In general, if one is sick with a cough or similar, they ought to stay away from all high risk folks - period - until their illness is over.

This. But in America not only is it a badge of honor to go to work or school spreading disease because it means you are tough and committed, but employees and students/parents fear the retribution of bosses/principals and draconian policies.

 

Even if one must go to work or school, wearing a surgical mask around others with frequent handwashing would dramatically reduce the risk of spread or harming someone with a low immune system.

[TeenagerMom]

 

On the pertussis issue, here is what I came across last year:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/maso/facm/pdfs/BSCOID/2013121112_BSCOID_Minutes.pdf (see page 6)

 

 

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm

 

 

That's really interesting. DD received her Dtap in 2012 for school and 6 months later caught Pertussis from another girl (also vaccinated) on her basketball team in our homeschool group.  DH, DS (asthmatic), and myself (asthmatic) were all due or near due for boosters and none of us caught it.  I thought it was really strange at the time.

[goldberry]

none of the vaccinated animals developed outward signs of pertussis disease after being exposed to B. pertussis. However, there were differences in other aspects of the immune response.  Animals that received an acellular pertussis vaccine had the bacteria in their airways for up to six weeks and were able to spread the infection to unvaccinated animals. In contrast, animals that received whole-cell vaccine cleared the bacteria within three weeks.

 

This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.

 

So, is that saying you can have the bacteria and spread it if you have been EXPOSED to it, right?  Not that the bacteria comes from the vaccination. So there still would have to be an exposure to cause it.

[goldberry]

The most recent measles outbreak was all in VACCINATED children, and plenty were under the age of 10, so it's not like it had been a really long time since they were vaccinated. 

 

Which outbreak are you referring to?  The Disneyland one definitely involved unvaccinated children.

[kiana]

Which outbreak are you referring to?  The Disneyland one definitely involved unvaccinated children.

 

The majority of the 159 patients with reported measles in the 2015 outbreaks were either unvaccinated (71 [45%]) or had unknown vaccination status (60 [38%]); 28 (18%) had received measles vaccine. Among the 68 U.S. residents who had measles and were unvaccinated, 29 (43%) cited philosophical or religious objections to vaccination, 27 (40%) were ineligible because they were too young to receive vaccination (26 patients) or had a medical contraindication (one), three (4%) represented missed opportunities for vaccination, and nine (13%) had other reasons for not being vaccinated (Figure 2).

Of the 159 measles cases, 153 (96%) were import-associated. Ten cases were classified as direct importations, (six among unvaccinated U.S. residents returning from overseas travel, of whom three were aged 6–11 months and age-eligible for vaccination before departure, and four among foreign visitors). Countries associated with direct importations included Azerbaijan, China, Germany, India, Indonesia, Kyrgyzstan, Pakistan, Qatar, Singapore, and United Arab Emirates (one import each).

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6414a1.htm (most recent "outbreak" listed on their website)

So I'm with you, I don't see a recent one that only involved vaccinated kids. 

[Slartibartfast]

 

Are we supposed to do MMR and/or polio again too (at a certain age) due to immunity wearing off?

 

 

You could always get your titers checked if you are worried about it.

 

My sister was vaccinated as a child for Rubella and wasn't immune so they vaccinated her after each of her pregnancies. She still isn't immune.

 

I got the vaccine as a child as well. I am immune and didn't need to be given the shot again as an adult.

 

I don't know if it is very predictable at all.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Slartibartfast

[kbutton]

And for those of us who had no issues from vaccines when we were kids, it's because we weren't getting 25 or more of them in our first year. I don't see how anyone can even put forth the argument that young babies' and kids' systems aren't able to handle viruses, but they are so pro-vaccine they'll inject them with 7 viruses at a time and not see how that could affect them at all.

 

Well, the argument is something that has been studied for decades, and I don't think we are all afflicted with totally absent reasoning skills. :-) I don't expect everyone to agree, but I also try to avoid saying "how can any even put forth the argument" in front of words about people who do not vaccinate. I also happen to know someone that worked for decades in vaccine research who is an extremely ethical person and who has an adult child permanently and profoundly disabled by something that is now vaccine-preventable. To use those words about him, the person generating the data and studying this as his life work, would be horrid--it's an attack on his sanity and ethics, and he has numerous doctorate level degrees behind his decisions. I am not trying to start an argument with you; just suggesting that those words are a bit strong for something that reasonable people disagree about and have disagreed about for a long time.

 

On a side note as something people might want to try to verify: I have no data I can link on this. A healthcare worker (who was in a place to study and know this at the time) told me that five shots at a time reduces an infant's immune system by something like 1% or less. Obviously, even if this is accurate, that's average, not a specific stat for individual children. It probably also depends on the vaccine in question. But 1% isn't much of a hit. 

 

Lots of people do a modified schedule in tandem with their doctor as well. It's not all or nothing. 

 

Also, isn't one of the reasons that babies get so many shots is that instead of giving all of the vaccine as one big dose, they break it up into a series? Each subsequent shot in a series is not a whole new virus each time. It's an additional dose of one that's already been encountered by the body. So, you might have one new shot and several re-runs at any given appointment. I have no schedule in front of me right now. I just remember that there is a method to the conventional schedule as well. It's not random. I think they are also trying to help with compliance when it's hard to bring children to so many different appointments because of work schedules and the like. (Human behavior does factor into this as well.)

[creekland]

 

On the pertussis issue, here is what I came across last year:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/maso/facm/pdfs/BSCOID/2013121112_BSCOID_Minutes.pdf (see page 6)

 

 

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm

 

 

I don't have time to read the entire studies, but what you have quoted is interesting.  It seems pertussis might be mutating?  Is so, I presume they will be changing the vaccine to counter it or might go back to the whole cell version.

 

 

 

 none of the vaccinated animals developed outward signs of pertussis disease after being exposed to B. pertussis. However, there were differences in other aspects of the immune response.  Animals that received an acellular pertussis vaccine had the bacteria in their airways for up to six weeks and were able to spread the infection to unvaccinated animals. In contrast, animals that received whole-cell vaccine cleared the bacteria within three weeks.

 

This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.

 

And with this it's important to note that the vaccine did prevent the disease (very helpful to the person getting the vaccine), but one should still stay away from high risk or other unvaccinated folks if exposed to it for the three or six week period.

 

None of this latter stuff screams "skip the vax" to me.  It says, "be careful if exposed."  Getting pertussis as a mom is even worse for the kids (exposure-wise), of course.  It lasts a long time and puts them in a bit of risk if they aren't (or aren't old enough to be) vaccinated.

 

Vaccines not being "perfect" is not the same as vaccines being "worthless."

[ChocolateReignRemix]

My immunities had worn off as well. I don't know why this never makes people question whether or not the vaccines were working, because it's clear the protection isn't forever. I was vaccinated before college and pregnant THREE YEARS LATER, and didn't have immunities. At least one of my daughters that was vaccinated before college and pregnant within 3 years of that vaccine (well, booster), was NOT immune to rubella either.

 

The most recent measles outbreak was all in VACCINATED children, and plenty were under the age of 10, so it's not like it had been a really long time since they were vaccinated. As far as pertussis, if anyone would look at the FDA studies, they could see pertussis can easily be spread by people who have been vaccinated for it, without them even knowing they are sick.

 

And for those of us who had no issues from vaccines when we were kids, it's because we weren't getting 25 or more of them in our first year. I don't see how anyone can even put forth the argument that young babies' and kids' systems aren't able to handle viruses, but they are so pro-vaccine they'll inject them with 7 viruses at a time and not see how that could affect them at all.

 

For the first bolded, please cite a source for that statistic.

 

To the second bolded, no one puts forth that argument.  If you can''t distinguish between what a vaccine is/does versus what a live virus does in a host, then I am not sure you know as much about this topic as you seem to believe.

Edited November 2, 2016 by ChocolateReignRemix

[hornblower]

I don't see how anyone can even put forth the argument that young babies' and kids' systems aren't able to handle viruses, but they are so pro-vaccine they'll inject them with 7 viruses at a time and not see how that could affect them at all.

 

Because getting sick with a virus =/= as building an immune response from a vaccination.  

 

I don't see how anyone can even try to equate these. 

[hornblower]

btw. there's a really excellent whole chapter on Vaccine Immunology avail for free online.   It explains the various mechanisms involved and provides some explanations for why immunity may wane with time & how vaccine schedules (& boosters) can affect duration of immunity.  

http://www.who.int/immunization/documents/Elsevier_Vaccine_immunology.pdf

[maize]

For pertussis, it sounds like it may be time for a vaccine reformulation. I'd personally like to see a booster not linked to tetanus.