Better-Late-Than-Early Folks, Advise me on Math, Please!

[BlsdMama]

 

 

Next topic:

 

Bill, I do think that sometimes, in your zeal, you underestimate the enormous effort that many homeschool moms put out on behalf of their children, over years and years of their lives. You tend to come across as though you think we are all neglectful and lazy, doomed to ruin our children's lives because we don't do things exactly your way. Do you realize you do that? Do you have any idea how offensive and hurtful that is?

 

 

:001_wub:

 

I've known a few homeschoolers in the last 16 or so years and, by and large, they are deeply invested in not only thier children, but in their educational well-being.  It's frustrating to come to a "safe" place on the internet and be put on the defensive again simply because education theories don't align with someone else's. 

 

And to clarify, not to stir the pot, but I am *not* doing "mathy" things with my children until the age of ten.  To clarify I mean -  none, zero, nada, zilch. On occasion my 8yo does workbooks I have lying about for fun, but I am not saying, "Sarah, let's do math today."  I am not directing them with math manipulative in order to teach concepts.  I'm doing NONE of it.  Now, I am doing life and life for us does include cooking (with proper measurements) and life for us does include a rather LOT of boardgames and card games and life for us also includes playing with blocks, tanagrams, tiles, dominoes.  But, to clarify, I am *that* mother of which you speak because I am quite definitely doing *nothing* for math.  And still these children can pick up a Saxon 5/4 textbook at age 9 or 10 and start from scratch, not self-teaching, but without serious hiccups, and do math.  I'll own that my current 12yo tends to be mathy so she is an unfair example for this post.  My 10yo has done the same.  My 14yo is not particulary mathy and still is doing great in Algebra with no hiccups.  This is so far removed from my oldest (very) academic student who truly struggled with math in high school and had formal, curriculum based math since she was 5.  It is, obviously, a small sample.

 

 I suspect 10yo is not older than the OP is wondering about and I wonder how many of us who believe in educational rigor AND have intentionally delayed one subject actually exist?  Obviously the Bluedorns are one such family and they've written responses on it.

 

 

 Anyone else do this intentionally and care to comment on their actual results? 

[eternalsummer]

On one hand, I actually agree with you (and I do warn people sometimes that my kids aren't real typical), but....if we started every post with "my kid tests in the gifted range", it would really annoy people after awhile and it sounds pretentious.

I agree, and a lot of things *are* generalizable.  But if your 8 year old is doing trig in a public school (or even if your 8th grader is doing trig in a public school) I just don't know how much useful advice you really have for the average homeschooler.

[idnib]

As far as the original topic, I think it's great that the OP is concerned about making the transition. Some children just accept it as the next step, and others balk and take some managing. Thinking ahead, to me, shows a healthy respect for the process.

 

As for the rest: My own opinion is that there is an "early learning window" but like everything else in life, it's limited and therefore must be budgeted, and (sadly) choices have to be made. Math is only one way to use that window, and there are many other worthy activities to fill that slot. For some it might be language, for other children, perhaps something nature-based or physically active. To argue that it must be math because we are living in >[current century] is not helpful. Perhaps in light of the global catastrophe of climate change, we need more children to grow up and love the natural world. Or to communicate the importance of space exploration in powerful writing. Or speak other languages to bring people of different backgrounds together. 

 

There are as many useful and loving ways to fill that too-short window as there are children.

[maize]

As far as the original topic, I think it's great that the OP is concerned about making the transition. Some children just accept it as the next step, and others balk and take some managing. Thinking ahead, to me, shows a healthy respect for the process.

 

As for the rest: My own opinion is that there is an "early learning window" but like everything else in life, it's limited and therefore must be budgeted, and (sadly) choices have to be made. Math is only one way to use that window, and there are many other worthy activities to fill that slot. For some it might be language, for other children, perhaps something nature-based or physically active. To argue that it must be math because we are living in >[current century] is not helpful. Perhaps in light of the global catastrophe of climate change, we need more children to grow up and love the natural world. Or to communicate the importance of space exploration in powerful writing. Or speak other languages to bring people of different backgrounds together.

 

There are as many useful and loving ways to fill that too-short window as there are children.

I love this point of view agree wholeheartedly.

[Charlie]

 Anyone else do this intentionally and care to comment on their actual results? 

 

I will confess to feeling a little intimidated to post here, as I'm really not a "classical" homeschooler (I registered with the unschooly social group, but I'm not allowed to post or reply to a post). Anyway, my kids are older now and I don't have any practical advice for the OP, but my experiences are more like Ellie's (post #6). We didn't focus one way or another until they were older and it became relevant to them. Each child then approached learning higher math or catching up to their peers differently, and some even trying to avoid it because it intimidates them. I feel like I can better serve the avoiders by helping them see that they're not really solving their problem by avoiding what looks daunting. Furthermore, they'll find greater satisfaction in the long run by spending the effort now, because the future reward they're looking forward to is that much greater than the immediate reward they see now. I think that's a good lesson in general, and so that just applies to learning math in the same way it applies to learning how to do your own laundry or make your own juicy burger or how to discuss a delicate issue with someone. By the way, the older ones have not experienced any unusual burden for not having done math lessons in their youth. For some it came easier, for some it was more of a challenge.

 

I don't know if that helps or if it's too vague, and I don't think it's really what the OP is asking for because it sounds like she wants to do traditional math lessons, thus my feeling awkward replying, but, well, thanks for asking. ;-)

[maize]

I will confess to feeling a little intimidated to post here, as I'm really not a "classical" homeschooler (I registered with the unschooly social group, but I'm not allowed to post or reply to a post). Anyway, my kids are older now and I don't have any practical advice for the OP, but my experiences are more like Ellie's (post #6). We didn't focus one way or another until they were older and it became relevant to them. Each child then approached learning higher math or catching up to their peers differently, and some even trying to avoid it because it intimidates them. I feel like I can better serve the avoiders by helping them see that they're not really solving their problem by avoiding what looks daunting. Furthermore, they'll find greater satisfaction in the long run by spending the effort now, because the future reward they're looking forward to is that much greater than the immediate reward they see now. I think that's a good lesson in general, and so that just applies to learning math in the same way it applies to learning how to do your own laundry or make your own juicy burger or how to discuss a delicate issue with someone. By the way, the older ones have not experienced any unusual burden for not having done math lessons in their youth. For some it came easier, for some it was more of a challenge.

 

I don't know if that helps or if it's too vague, and I don't think it's really what the OP is asking for because it sounds like she wants to do traditional math lessons, thus my feeling awkward replying, but, well, thanks for asking. ;-)

Thanks for posting about your experience, and welcome! We really have quite a variety of educational philosophies and approaches represented in this board, not just classical styles :)

[ktgrok]

Wow, that's snarky (hate to have read the unedited version).

 

As it happens I'm very pleased that an enriched early math experience led to my son being accepted into the most advanced Middle School mathematics academy in our school district (of 640,000 students) where he is excelling in a very demanding program that's both accelerated and deep.

 

I'd take that over the incessant failures we read about on this forum where delay followed by low-quality math education leads to total failure. Those threads are heartbreaking.

 

Bill

 

Sample size of one, Bill. Anecdote doesn't equal data, and I know you know that. 

 

Plenty of people are posting in this thread that delaying formal (i.e. textbook) math worked fine for their children. That's what the OP wants to know about. If you don' have advice on what to use when delaying formal math, seems you don't have much to say. 

 

Posting "what can I make for dessert without using chocolate" and then getting someone saying "well, you have to use chocolate, that's the best way" is silly. So is this. And you are better than that. 

[maize]

Where are these incessant math failures on these forums anyway ?

I personally have not noticed a large number of parents posting about how they intentionally delayed math instruction and now junior is hopelessly behind and doomed to a life of mathematical incompetence.

 

Perhaps Bill considers every struggling math student to be the fault of the parent? Posts about students who are struggling with algebra etc. are not particularly uncommon. It is quite possible that *certain people* believe that there are no innate differences in mathematical ability and that any child would excel (and certainly never struggle!) given the proper early teaching.

 

I'd like to see how he would have handled a dyscalculic child. That might be cruel to the child though, so probably best that he didn't get one.

Edited October 31, 2016 by maize

[birchbark]

My experience (since BlsdMama asked):

 

First kid: began with C-rods and Miquon at age four. Went through all three levels of Miquon and moved into Singapore. Did ok, but hated math and struggled with retention and real understanding until we got him into his current program.

 

Second kid: no formal math until third grade (age 8), unless you count some oral story problems. Picked up Strayer Upton without a struggle, and while he does not love math, he does not hate it either. He gets consistently high scores, and is particularly good with the mental math aspect. 

 

I made the switch after reading Dr. Ruth Beechick, Dr. Raymond Moore, Bluedorns, Benezet, and Paul Ziegler, the math instructor from my older's program.

 

I also have not seen incessant failures from delayed math in my years on this board. Shoot, I haven't seen incessant anything from delayed math. I feel very much in the minority in taking this route.

 

OP, I think SU makes a nice transition from living math, as it uses quite a few story problems. I've found it works best for me to introduce each page to my student, which takes about 10 minutes, and then he works on his own from there. They do have to copy the problems to paper or whiteboard, as the book is a non-consumable text. For more info check out this old thread. 

[Farrar]

I personally have not noticed a large number of parents posting about how they intentionally delayed math instruction and now junior is hopelessly behind and doomed to a life of mathematical incompetence.

 

Perhaps Bill considers every struggling math student to be the fault of the parent? Posts about students who are struggling with algebra etc. are not particularly uncommon. It is quite possible that *certain people* believe that there are no innate differences in mathematical ability and that any child would excel (and certainly never struggle!) given the proper early teaching.

 

I'd like to see how he would have handled a dyscalculic child. That might be cruel to the child though, so probably best that he didn't get one.

 

Agreed. While I won't contest that occasionally there is a parent here asking about remediation for a child who didn't receive adequate instruction, it seems like it's in public or private school as often as in homeschooling. I suspect that every 10 year old who is wrapping up 4th grade math is a failure in Bill's eyes from what he posts. And I'm pretty sure Bill believes that children's abilities are determined 90%+ by the quality of instruction. Oh, if only it were so. And now we're into a nature vs. nurture conversation that no one can win.

[ktgrok]

Yeah, I see a lot of posts about remediating reading, but not math. Threads about kids that hate math? Sure. But behind? Not many. 

[eternalsummer]

Agreed. While I won't contest that occasionally there is a parent here asking about remediation for a child who didn't receive adequate instruction, it seems like it's in public or private school as often as in homeschooling. I suspect that every 10 year old who is wrapping up 4th grade math is a failure in Bill's eyes from what he posts. And I'm pretty sure Bill believes that children's abilities are determined 90%+ by the quality of instruction. Oh, if only it were so. And now we're into a nature vs. nurture conversation that no one can win.

 

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure one side can win the nature/nurture conversation, having, I don't know, all of statistics and science on their side.

 

I mean, if things like eye color and stature and athletic ability are to some degree heritable, why not intelligence?  Does evolution only work from the neck down?  It's illogical.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah, I see a lot of posts about remediating reading, but not math. Threads about kids that hate math? Sure. But behind? Not many. 

 

Well, dd was behind for quite a while but no more.  She was a late bloomer.  Fortunately she didn't have her love of learning totally squashed by not being in sync with other children her age in math, esp. as she wants to go into STEM fields and now does well in those subjects. 

[Farrar]

Oh, I'm pretty sure one side can win the nature/nurture conversation, having, I don't know, all of statistics and science on their side.

 

I mean, if things like eye color and stature and athletic ability are to some degree heritable, why not intelligence?  Does evolution only work from the neck down?  It's illogical.

 

Ah, so you're saying if our kids don't do well on math tests, it's absolutely our fault. ;)

 

I'm pretty sure this is a pretty complex question without one answer actually...

[Farrar]

Yeah, I see a lot of posts about remediating reading, but not math. Threads about kids that hate math? Sure. But behind? Not many. 

 

I feel like I see the most about writing actually. But homeschoolers take such a radically different path with writing - especially on this board where there are so many people following a classical writing approach.

[Bluegoat]

Well, dd was behind for quite a while but no more.  She was a late bloomer.  Fortunately she didn't have her love of learning totally squashed by not being in sync with other children her age in math, esp. as she wants to go into STEM fields and now does well in those subjects. 

 

My dd has been late as well, and I wish I had realized that would happen earlier.  She has always been ok with conceptual understanding, but I'd have wasted a lot less time on things like trying to make sure she had number bonds and multiplication tables down, to almost no avail. 

 

In the end she suddenly started to be able to keep stuff like that in mind once she started showing the first signs of puberty.  I can't help but think it was largely a physiological leap or change.

[mellifera33]

I feel like I see the most about writing actually. But homeschoolers take such a radically different path with writing - especially on this board where there are so many people following a classical writing approach.

 

I recently had a conversation about homeschooling with one of my high school teachers, and he has found that most of his former homeschool students are on track with math, but many have trouble with writing. I hadn't considered the possibility that the difficulty comes from switching midway through from a model-based writing program to an environment where personal expression is valued above following a model. 

[sassenach]

Poor OP, she had no idea.

 

We should have a warning list of trigger phrases that will get people foaming at the mouth.

 

I recommend an asynchronous program like Math on Level

or Right Start to launch from. Or maybe Math Mammoth, which offers both grade level and topic specific units. Every curriculum makes assumptions on previous instruction. You'll probably have to do more instruction in some areas than you will in others in order to get settled into a curriculum.

 

Now that I've thought about it, I would start at Math Mammoth. She has a huge free sample download available.

[....]

I recently had a conversation about homeschooling with one of my high school teachers, and he has found that most of his former homeschool students are on track with math, but many have trouble with writing. 

 

:iagree:  Yep, I have seen this consistently where we live, too.  I am very strict about working on writing just because of this.      

[Farrar]

I recently had a conversation about homeschooling with one of my high school teachers, and he has found that most of his former homeschool students are on track with math, but many have trouble with writing. I hadn't considered the possibility that the difficulty comes from switching midway through from a model-based writing program to an environment where personal expression is valued above following a model. 

 

For kids who go all the way through with homeschooling, I don't think it's a problem by the time they're in high school and certainly not college. But I'm sure it's a problem for many of those homeschoolers who go to school around fifth grade or so. In general, I feel like we could have a meaty discussion about whether or not homeschoolers are dropping the ball on writing or whether our methods are just too different from the mainstream or whether the better late approach benefits kids when it comes to writing. I have opinions. I just don't see it with math on this board at all. Like, maybe half a dozen threads in as many years about real fall downs and people who have kids who are just on an average road with math isn't a massive problem of people failing their kids' at math.

[idnib]

I feel like I see the most about writing actually. But homeschoolers take such a radically different path with writing - especially on this board where there are so many people following a classical writing approach.

 

 

I agree. We had DS evaluated by a neuropsychologist a couple of years ago and I ended up giving her a printout of SWB's explanation of the classical writing process so that she would not underrate his writing ability because the procedure was normed to kids who've written many pages of content/self-expression, while he was still writing 1-2 careful paragraphs and practicing dictation. Now he writes a lot and has even started a novel, but that picked up on its own about a year ago, long after the evaluation was complete. Sometimes I think I should send the evaluator his latest work, since she seemed a bit skeptical at the time.

Edited November 2, 2016 by idnib

[EmilyGF]

For kids who go all the way through with homeschooling, I don't think it's a problem by the time they're in high school and certainly not college. But I'm sure it's a problem for many of those homeschoolers who go to school around fifth grade or so. In general, I feel like we could have a meaty discussion about whether or not homeschoolers are dropping the ball on writing or whether our methods are just too different from the mainstream or whether the better late approach benefits kids when it comes to writing. I have opinions. I just don't see it with math on this board at all. Like, maybe half a dozen threads in as many years about real fall downs and people who have kids who are just on an average road with math isn't a massive problem of people failing their kids' at math.

Hi Farrar,

 

I'd love to hear what you have to say on this... could you spin it off? :) Please?

 

Emily

[Spy Car]

All children deserve to be nurtured. Gifted ones, so-called non-gifted ones, and those with learning disabilities.

 

Neglect helps no child become their best. Actively engaging with a child early is the best way to discover (rather than miss) learning disabilities. Finding LDs early gives a parent the best chance to start getting the resources that help maximize that child's potential.

 

There have been a lot of personal attacks from people I've considered friends (that do hurt) and false characterizations, but nothing that advances the idea that not nurturing a young child's early education isn't the best path forward.

 

Bill

[Dmmetler]

I haven't seen Marilyn Burns mentioned yet, but her books are great as far as setting up a math lab and also in transitioning to recording math and doing math on paper. Burns was a big deal when I was in grad school 20 or so years ago, but kind of fell out of vogue because her stuff isn't as easy to put into grade stratified levels.

 

I like AIMS as well, but it is relatively hard to find their books now-they have gone to all online delivery, which makes it kind of expensive.

 

Check out "themailbox.com"-this is the website of Mailbox magazine, which has traditionally been a major purveyor of cute folder games and adorable worksheets. I believe you can print out a set number per month for free, and if it's stuff your DC likes, a subscription to one grade level of the magazine allows access to back issues in that grade and a large archive of materials for all grade levels. I use a lot of their stuff for my younger math club kids who are not quite ready for MathCOUNTS yet.

 

I am also a Saxon survivor, and it took until grad school to realize that math could be taught in a living, fun, interactive way and still be learned solidly. I did use textbooks with DD, but it was mostly because she was a kid who really wanted school to look like school as she had seen it when she was in K.

[Guest]

Everyone present is nurturing the hell outta their kids, Billiam.

[idnib]

All children deserve to be nurtured. Gifted ones, so-called non-gifted ones, and those with learning disabilities.

 

Neglect helps no child become their best. Actively engaging with a child early is the best way to discover (rather than miss) learning disabilities. Finding LDs early gives a parent the best chance to start getting the resources that help maximize that child's potential.

 

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with this and I know you mean well. But what does it have to do with this thread, specifically? I think that's the problem people are having here. Can you quote a post or something which is offering neglect as a solution in this thread? If not, I think you should let it go.

Edited November 3, 2016 by idnib

[Rosie_0801]

All children deserve to be nurtured. Gifted ones, so-called non-gifted ones, and those with learning disabilities.

 

Neglect helps no child become their best. Actively engaging with a child early is the best way to discover (rather than miss) learning disabilities. Finding LDs early gives a parent the best chance to start getting the resources that help maximize that child's potential.

 

 

The not very funny part for those in the situation, is that sometimes the most nurturing thing to do is leave well enough alone so you don't cause a phobia. You're right that most difficulties can be remediated. Some just won't because sometimes brains are uncooperative. Nurturing the hell out of ptsd won't necessarily fix it. You might roll your eyes at my extreme example, but extreme examples really do happen to some people!

[Spy Car]

The not very funny part for those in the situation, is that sometimes the most nurturing thing to do is leave well enough alone so you don't cause a phobia. You're right that most difficulties can be remediated. Some just won't because sometimes brains are uncooperative. Nurturing the hell out of ptsd won't necessarily fix it. You might roll your eyes at my extreme example, but extreme examples really do happen to some people!

 

Trust me, inducing math phobias are the last thing I'd want to promote. Laying a good foundation with fun and effective means early is, in my estimation, the best way to take off stress. Why intentionally get "behind" with a neurotypical kid, and then try to play catch up? The latter seems like the stressful path to me. 

 

Understand what one is dealing with an individual child is important, and the best way to ascertain that is to get involved early (and not to miss opportunities by following failed educational models IMO. Better to discover any learning issues early.

 

Bill

[maize]

I'm sorry you've felt hurt by this thread Bill. Maybe look at it this way: friends don't let friends be bullies.

 

And, dude, if your definition of neglect is not teaching formal, intentional, conceptual math starting in the preschool years--99+% of parents worldwide are neglectful.

 

That is quite the claim to make. This thread was not the place to make it. I recommend writing a book in order to disseminate your views.

[barnwife]

 

 

And to clarify, not to stir the pot, but I am *not* doing "mathy" things with my children until the age of ten.  To clarify I mean -  none, zero, nada, zilch. On occasion my 8yo does workbooks I have lying about for fun, but I am not saying, "Sarah, let's do math today."  I am not directing them with math manipulative in order to teach concepts.  I'm doing NONE of it.  Now, I am doing life and life for us does include cooking (with proper measurements) and life for us does include a rather LOT of boardgames and card games and life for us also includes playing with blocks, tanagrams, tiles, dominoes.  But, to clarify, I am *that* mother of which you speak because I am quite definitely doing *nothing* for math.  And still these children can pick up a Saxon 5/4 textbook at age 9 or 10 and start from scratch, not self-teaching, but without serious hiccups, and do math.  I'll own that my current 12yo tends to be mathy so she is an unfair example for this post.  My 10yo has done the same.  My 14yo is not particulary mathy and still is doing great in Algebra with no hiccups.  This is so far removed from my oldest (very) academic student who truly struggled with math in high school and had formal, curriculum based math since she was 5.  It is, obviously, a small sample.

 

 

I needed this today. 

 

We have DS6, DD4, and DS3 and I am expecting at the end of Dec. I call this DS6's K year. For maths, we are using CSMP and Miquon. I have no schedule for it. My entire math plan for this year is "do something mathy (almost) every day." Sometimes that something mathy is a board game. Sometimes it's random questions in the car while driving somewhere.

 

And I chose this route for this year for various reasons. But today was the kind of day I question it. So it's good to hear of someone who wouldn't believe I am crazy for my chosen math route.

 

I am not going to touch the tangent this thread has taken. Nor do I have anything to offer OP as far as suggestions. For now, I plan to continue our living maths, CSMP, Miquon blend until it no longer works for us. I won't throw out my plan based on one day. 

[maize]

So, Bill, in case you are open to reconsidering your tact here, there are a lot of ways you could have contributed to this thread that would not have come across as "self-conceited dude on a high horse sneering down his nose at all the dumb homeschool moms who were foolish enough to embrace an educational philosophy different from his own."

 

You might, for instance, have jumped in with something like this: "I'm not a fan of delaying formal math, but here are some suggestions of conceptually strong programs you could dig in with..."

 

I mean, you've put quite a bit of time and effort into working on math with your son. You've got some ideas and experience worth sharing. They'd be well received if you stuck to addressing the question at hand and left the arrogant judgmentalism behind.

 

You've a much better chance of having a positive influence that way, if that is something you're interested in.

[Spy Car]

I'm sorry you've felt hurt by this thread Bill. Maybe look at it this way: friends don't let friends be bullies.

 

And, dude, if your definition of neglect is not teaching formal, intentional, conceptual math starting in the preschool years--99+% of parents worldwide are neglectful.

 

That is quite the claim to make. This thread was not the place to make it. I recommend writing a book in order to disseminate your views.

 

You suggested up thread that for a dyscalculic child to have me for a father would have been cruel for that child. This was one of the ugliest comments a human being has ever directed my way.

 

Now you dare to lecture on bullying and offer up false apologies? No thanks.

 

All the strong conceptual math programs require parent investment. One simply can not opt out of a child's education and expect good results.

 

Bill

[ktgrok]

I know it's probably a spin off, but regarding writing...that was my biggest issue with my son. Ugh. A paragraph was torture, even in high school. I'll admit we got very little done. He wrote ONE essay. One. The rest of his writing was no more than a paragraph. We did do a lot with pre-writing, and with identifying and understanding writing techniques. We did WWE, then some WWS (not much) and some IEW (not much) and some of a few other things. And then for various reasons he needed to not be my student, and he did Dual Enrollment this year pretty much full time. 

 

You guys! He is getting A's on his papers!!! Real, multipage papers with works cited and MLA formatting!!!! He got a 96 on one and a 95 on the other!!!!

 

Some of that is innate, but I like to think that all those years working on the bits and pieces of writing, and exposing him to language, paid off. Without pushing him to the point of ruining our relationship. 

[Farrar]

I'm sick of the straw man argument. We're not the enemy. For goodness sake, the most traffic my tiny blog has ever gotten was when I posted about how homeschoolers are too ready to ignore educational neglect. I care about neglect. Like, a lot. And if you want to talk hurtful, it's just as hurtful to all of us that anyone comes into every thread like this and suggests that we have, as a group, a real problem with neglecting our kids. Not that this is an issue in homeschooling communities sometimes or the greater homeschool community, but among us specifically - the people responding in this thread. I think Bill is probably an amazing father. But I also can't disagree that some of the disdain he's put onto parents with kids who struggle in various threads on these issues imply to me that both he and his son are very lucky they're well paired - a parent who wants excellence and a child who can provide it.

 

There are some things I've done that have worked crazy wonders for my kids in some arenas. It is so, so hard not to, when I see others say they're struggling with something I think we're excelling at, not to think if only they had done x, y, and z that I did, that they would have gotten the same results. And my advice about what worked may have great merit. But there is no magic bullet of advice. Children aren't one size fits all. And the things that I did that worked to, say, make my kids absurdly truthful and open with me, might not work for another parent with another kid. And it's on me to see that and phrase my advice accordingly and kindly.

[Guest]

Ladies, it's like talking to a brick wall. Time to ignore and move on.

[maize]

You suggested up thread that for a dyscalculic child to have me for a father would have been cruel for that child. This was one of the ugliest comments a human being has ever directed my way.

 

Now you dare to lecture on bullying and offer up false apologies? No thanks.

 

All the strong conceptual math programs require parent investment. One simply can not opt out of a child's education and expect good results.

 

Bill

I've been one of those kids, Bill. One profoundly hurt by parental expectations that I was unable to meet. Loving, patient parents who invested tons of time and tried many different methods.

 

Math was not my disability, but the disability was real. There were things my brain just couldn't do. And all of those efforts, from the time I was small through my teen years, didn't change that.

 

I am extremely grateful that I was given time to grow into some more academic abilities; that gift my parents did give me.

 

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking you so narrow minded that you could not have coped reasonably and compassionately with a dyscalculic child--even if the best possible approach for that child were to let math instruction go entirely because beating one's head against a brick wall is good for no one and some things cannot in fact be remediated. Sometimes continued effort to change what cannot be changed does irreparable damage. Maybe you could have accepted such a reality.

 

I hope so. I hope your heart is more open and empathetic than you have demonstrated in this thread.

Edited November 3, 2016 by maize

[Spy Car]

I'm sick of the straw man argument. We're not the enemy. For goodness sake, the most traffic my tiny blog has ever gotten was when I posted about how homeschoolers are too ready to ignore educational neglect. I care about neglect. Like, a lot. And if you want to talk hurtful, it's just as hurtful to all of us that anyone comes into every thread like this and suggests that we have, as a group, a real problem with neglecting our kids. Not that this is an issue in homeschooling communities sometimes or the greater homeschool community, but among us specifically - the people responding in this thread. I think Bill is probably an amazing father. But I also can't disagree that some of the disdain he's put onto parents with kids who struggle in various threads on these issues imply to me that both he and his son are very lucky they're well paired - a parent who wants excellence and a child who can provide it.

 

There are some things I've done that have worked crazy wonders for my kids in some arenas. It is so, so hard not to, when I see others say they're struggling with something I think we're excelling at, not to think if only they had done x, y, and z that I did, that they would have gotten the same results. And my advice about what worked may have great merit. But there is no magic bullet of advice. Children aren't one size fits all. And the things that I did that worked to, say, make my kids absurdly truthful and open with me, might not work for another parent with another kid. And it's on me to see that and phrase my advice accordingly and kindly.

 

So we both care about neglect. A lot. And you've been criticized for raising the issue, but I'm the "bad guy" for sharing a common concern?

 

I accused no one on this forum of neglect. Not even close. If people are feeling defensive, that's for them to ponder why.

 

Struggle is one thing. I have no disdain for people who are doing their best, and I think you know that.

 

In contrast, not educating a child deep into the grammar school years and then realizing in a panic that the child is way behind grade level expectations is an all-too-common thread subject. Generally raised by people who are new and then move on. And that sort of neglect is a problem.

 

You know it. And I know it. The people who have slammed us (both) know it. 

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I've been one of those kids, Bill. One profoundly hurt by parental expectations that I was unable to meet. Loving, patient parents who invested tons of time and tried many different methods.

 

Math was not my disability, but the disability was real. There were things my brain just couldn't do. And all of those efforts, from the time I was small through my teen years, didn't change that.

 

I am extremely grateful that I was given time to grow into some more academic abilities; that gift my parents did give me.

 

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking you so narrow minded that you could not have coped reasonably and compassionately with a dyscalculic child--even if the best possible approach for that child were to let math instruction go entirely because beating one's head against a brick wall is good for no one and some things cannot in fact be remediated. Sometimes continued effort to change what cannot be changed does irreparable damage. Maybe you could have accepted such a reality.

 

I hope so. I hope your heart is more open and empathetic than you have demonstrated in this thread.

 

Rather than worrying about me, I sincerely hope you spend some time reflecting on the cruelty of the things you've said in this thread. 

 

I appreciate that you are carrying emotional pain, but turning around and using that as an excuse to inflicting your pain on others isn't kind, reasonable, or fair.

 

Bill

[maize]

If only the wall would stop being so wrong...

:)

[maize]

Too bad we're not allowed to post kilt pictures anymore...

Edited November 3, 2016 by maize

[Spy Car]

But that is not what this thread is about.

 

Don't be obtuse. You're a smart man. But you don't know when to back down.

 

I stopped posting, but the onslaught continued unabated.

 

There are no great conceptual math programs that a young child can use absent a teacher/parent. Having an involved teacher is a key component in a good math education. 

 

Bill

[eternalsummer]

I don't think that deliberately teaching from a conceptual math curriculum before say age 8 (at the earliest, really) is necessary in order to avoid educational neglect, that is the point.

 

We do some conceptual math work from curricula (MM and BA, mostly - tried Miquon and hated it) but I am 100% certain I could teach all of math to pre-algebra without ever using curricula, and probably all of it I could do orally or with scraps of paper here and there.  We could do math in the car on the way to the grocery store and it would be enough math, and not neglect.

 

Alternatively, I could do nothing, no formal math at all (except maybe screening for disabilities - I'd have to look up how to do that) and pick it up at 10 and it would take maybe a year to catch up with a normal student - at least, that is the experience of other women who've done similar.

 

I don't see how that is functionally different from waiting until middle school to start Latin instead of doing all that primary Latin work from age 5-10 - you have to go very slowly at those ages and from what I've read, not a ton of it is really retained.  It's not like you're going through Henle at age 6, kwim?  One way or another you're not getting Serious Latin until middle school or later.

[maize]

I don't think that deliberately teaching from a conceptual math curriculum before say age 8 (at the earliest, really) is necessary in order to avoid educational neglect, that is the point.

 

We do some conceptual math work from curricula (MM and BA, mostly - tried Miquon and hated it) but I am 100% certain I could teach all of math to pre-algebra without ever using curricula, and probably all of it I could do orally or with scraps of paper here and there. We could do math in the car on the way to the grocery store and it would be enough math, and not neglect.

 

Alternatively, I could do nothing, no formal math at all (except maybe screening for disabilities - I'd have to look up how to do that) and pick it up at 10 and it would take maybe a year to catch up with a normal student - at least, that is the experience of other women who've done similar.

 

I don't see how that is functionally different from waiting until middle school to start Latin instead of doing all that primary Latin work from age 5-10 - you have to go very slowly at those ages and from what I've read, not a ton of it is really retained. It's not like you're going through Henle at age 6, kwim? One way or another you're not getting Serious Latin until middle school or later.

Or starting ballet at age 8 rather than age 3, or formal art lessons in high school, or piano lessons at 10 not 2, or foreign language immersion at 20.

 

If you want or need a prodigy, starting early may be best. But...a kid who started at 8 may become a professional dancer, someone who picked up a language in their 20's a professional translator, someone who took up writing in their 50's a professional novelist.

 

The learning ability and adaptability of the human brain is not lost after the ripe old age of 4.

 

Fortunately :)

 

Someone posted upthread something about opportunity cost, though I don't think that term was used. When we devote time and energy to one thing we lose the opportunity to devote it to another thing. And we can't do all the things before age 5.

 

I don't personally see math as a clear prime priority for that age. Music or dance or climbing trees seem equally worthy :)

 

There are things I think neurotypical kids should learn before adulthood in order to function in our society and have doors of opportunity open to them. A certain level of math is among them.

 

But there are a lot of years between age 3 and age 18 to work on that.

Edited November 4, 2016 by maize

[ktgrok]

I stopped posting, but the onslaught continued unabated.

 

There are no great conceptual math programs that a young child can use absent a teacher/parent. Having an involved teacher is a key component in a good math education. 

 

Bill

 

Maybe not. But you know what, using a "non conceptual" math program isn't educational or parental neglect either. I use CLE with my kids. Many say it isn't conceptual enough. But I'm not neglecting my kids. 

[ktgrok]

And Bill, if you aren't saying anyone in this thread is neglecting their kids, why bring neglect into the thread at all?

 

If someone is posting about cats, you wouldn't jump in with a post about how awful donkeys are, would you? 

 

If you start talking about neglect in the thread, yes, people think you are referring to at least some people in the thread. Otherwise, why bring it up?

[Farrar]

I had a long response, but I ditched it. Basically, I feel like Bill is in a different thread than us, not reading what people are actually saying, refusing to accept the same definitions of terms like "formal" as the rest of us, and generally arguing against people who are just not us. Maybe we should find him a radical unschooling board to go wag his finger at. It might make him happy. And then we'd probably actually agree with some of what he was saying.

[Guest]

And Bill, if you aren't saying anyone in this thread is neglecting their kids, why bring neglect into the thread at all?

 

If someone is posting about cats, you wouldn't jump in with a post about how awful donkeys are, would you?

 

If you start talking about neglect in the thread, yes, people think you are referring to at least some people in the thread. Otherwise, why bring it up?

First of all I asked and he said he sees the premise of the op as inherently neglectful.

 

Second of all, we have like 70 threads a day about how someone's family donkey isn't working out, and that's sad. Must we turn a blind eye to all the people buying donkeys when we could instead advise-nay, insist!- that what they really need is a hippopotamus?!

[Farrar]

First of all I asked and he said he sees the premise of the op as inherently neglectful.

 

Second of all, we have like 70 threads a day about how someone's family donkey isn't working out, and that's sad. Must we turn a blind eye to all the people buying donkeys when we could instead advise-nay, insist!- that what they really need is a hippopotamus?!

 

Yeah, I think that's the problem of it. He *does* think many of the people in this thread are neglectful. And that the OP is. And that we're not involved enough (even though I can't even imagine where that accusation comes from, but whatever, he clearly means it toward people in this thread). But then he tried to say it wasn't about us and if we were defensive, it was a reflection of our own fears. Sigh.

 

Did you know that hippos are an invasive species in South America now? I don't know why I'm absurdly fascinated by this, but I kind of am. When you say "invasive species" you think of kudzu and English ivy and maybe the striped mosquitoes or that crazy walking fish thing. But HIPPOS. Clearly someone should've stuck with their donkey.

[maize]

Yeah, I think that's the problem of it. He *does* think many of the people in this thread are neglectful. And that the OP is. And that we're not involved enough (even though I can't even imagine where that accusation comes from, but whatever, he clearly means it toward people in this thread). But then he tried to say it wasn't about us and if we were defensive, it was a reflection of our own fears. Sigh.

 

Did you know that hippos are an invasive species in South America now? I don't know why I'm absurdly fascinated by this, but I kind of am. When you say "invasive species" you think of kudzu and English ivy and maybe the striped mosquitoes or that crazy walking fish thing. But HIPPOS. Clearly someone should've stuck with their donkey.

Seriously? Where in South America? And how the heck did hippos get out into the wild breeding there?

 

That is fascinating. I mean, I think of hippos as more likely to be endangered than to be invasive. And it's not like rats that could sneak over in cargo ships, or plants someone might have just wanted in their yard...

Edited November 4, 2016 by maize

[Farrar]

Seriously? Where in South America? And how the heck did hippos get out into the wild breeding there?

 

That is fascinating. I mean, I think of hippos as more likely to be endangered than to be invasive. And it's not like rats that could sneak over in cargo ships, or plants someone might have just wanted in their yard...

 

Pablo Escobar did it:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160510-pablo-escobar-hippos-colombia/

 

I thought about watching Narcos at one point just to see if the hippos were in it. Well, sort of. It's so fascinating.

 

ETA: So that article downplays them. I read something elsewhere saying there were definitely already more than a hundred. And that they simply don't know where they are and how far they've spread because of how solitary the hippos are.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Farrar