Better-Late-Than-Early Folks, Advise me on Math, Please!

[BlsdMama]

 

 

Just my opinion, but I admit that I have a hard time referring to a living math approach as no math.  Not all families may naturally incorporate as much living math as BlsdMama and I might be concerned that lurkers here might misinterpret "no math."  I have doubts that how to do this is intuitive for all parents and that learning early math is intuitive for all children.  For example, not everyone might think to ask their kids to triple the recipe or whether every chicken laid an egg...  Some parents may not have an understanding of a sequence looks like and what skills the parents are using in daily life that they might include the kids on.  That's where I think BlsdMama's post is so helpful - the parent needs to understand the big picture, what one family has done or didn't do, what happened next when they started a program, how that went and where that led in the long run, and what sorts of details were involved.

 

The different timetables for math development in the early years are a funny thing.  Maybe it would help to describe them as akin to the development of reading skills, where there's a range within that window of time.  (The caveat is that math and language development may be asynchronous.)

 

What comes after this early learning period may be a separate question for OP.  What feels vaguely disconnected to me is the idea of going from a living math experience for early learning, which by its nature comes with a rich physical context to elucidate the concepts, to Saxon, which seems sort of opposite, as that philosophy is learning by repetition.  OP seemed interested in alternatives to Saxon and accordingly might benefit from additional families' experiences where "living math" was the early learning method followed by a program at some point in time - what did the transition look like?

 

(OP, if you're around, I still think your path boils down to choosing a program and a level that seem suitable for your goals and your student's individual needs, then filling in any random missing prerequisite skills as seems appropriate for the level you want to start in, and I think the MM topic books are one possibility to fill such holes.)

 

Wapiti, you've done such a good job of dragging us back to the OP. Thank you.  It's very thoughtful.

 

I *really* like Math Mammoth (mentioned above.)  I fell in love with Fred for Algebra for my oldest and so I bought Apples, Butterflies, and,  I think, Cats.  I wasn't impressed because I felt there was nothing to learn there.  *However* I will say that if a family doesn't know how to go about bringing math into the topic of conversation, I suspect the middle "grade/levels" of Fred would do a good job of helping you to think outside the curriculum and begin to think *with* your child about math.  "Johnny, the Smiths are visiting this weekend for caramel apples.  How many do we need for us and how many do we need for them?  So how many total do I pick up from the store?"  KWIM? Or, "Jane, I am *not* taking more than 30 books home from the library today.  How many is that for each of you?"  I think LoF does a good job of getting math out of the box and into the general conversation.  And, as a plug, the Algebra got us through the ice with oldest DD when nothing else was doing it.  My oldest DS thinks it's ridiculous though, lol, so kids who adore numbers and their calculators may be less enthused.

 

 

If you delay starting a formal math program, when you do start and what do you use? Do you do anything in particular to prepare your students for the transition? 

 

Saxon 54 seems to be the traditional choice for families starting formal math a bit later, but I'm hesitant because of childhood Saxon trauma.  :laugh: Also, it seems like Saxon has changed a bit since the good old days. Any other options people have had success with? Or can someone persuade me that my anti-Saxon prejudice is unjust? 

 

So, I can't remember if I addressed the Saxon question directly.  I get all flustered and excited when goats are brought into a conversation, more so even than kilts. ;)

 

I don't know that Saxon has changed a lot.  DD is using Saxon for Algebra and it appears to be the same book I used in high school, lol.  I like Saxon.  I think there are better programs out there, if I'm looking all the way to high school, but honestly, it's just *so* straight forward and systematic and painless.  I like the oral exercises we do after the teaching and before the written exercises.  They give you an opportunity to see where your child's head is at with mental math and correct if need be.  I see this as similar to MM in concept, though it is more in the oral exercise than in the written exercise.  The Algebra doesn't have nearly the effort and information to plow through that Foerester's does.  I see this as a negative for mathy kids but they still come out of Saxon Algebra with the ability to do the math even if they didn't have to think of how to write the problem. I'm not mathematical by nature and so I am no Jann in TX.  If you want to understand the difference in high school math, get ye over to the High School board, figure out what you want to use in high school and work backwards.  Sometimes this is the best way because there are roads that do not go to X town or Y town.  I think the OP is very bright to be thinking ahead.

 

TT must be spoken about in this thread I think and I hesitate to bring it up.  I have a love/hate relationship with TT.  My main issue with TT is that it drops the parent factor.  For most of us teaching through high school, your kid is going to hit a wall.  When that happens, you need to be able to pick up that book, sit down with that kid, and sort through it.  Heaven help you if you are just an average homeschool mama who hasn't had math in your life since 1994 and you're trying to pick it up half way through Algebra I or later.  

 

So, when you talk about Saxon, I just think Saxon is *so* homeschool friendly.  It's laid out well, it has enough repetition, it has a clearly laid out "mom responsibility" of what to teach, it has oral/mental problems, and then it has the written exercise which seems to be a great balance between not too much and not too little.  It's not fancy, it's not flashy, and it isn't the current trend, which you all know homeschool curriculum is more faddish than shoes.  For those of you who don't know it, stick around another ten years, you will, but, when the rubber hits the road, Saxon is one of those "it gets done" curriculums.  I like buying math curriculum.  Well, I like buying *curriculum* in general.   :blushing:   But I get so guilt ridden if I don't *use* it and I've really pared down over the years (after realizing that curriculum is very trend driven) to what gets done.  Saxon does that in our house and I'll admit I *just* switched the kids (all of them) back to Saxon this year after wandering the earth dabbling in others.  

[BlsdMama]

I savored finding "problems" that would make my boy's mind whirl. As you say, not computations, but problem-solving. Questions that hit just the right spot so he had to think. To me, that's the magic part. It drives both intellectual growth ((literally and figuratively) and give a student a reason to want to learn the math necessary to do the fun stuff. The things that excite you (like the chess problem) also excite me.

 

 

 

The 7+6 problem you mentioned would involve seeing the 7 needs 3 to become a Ten, and if the 6 gave up 3 to make that happen. it would become a 3. So then, you'd have 1-Ten and 3-Units.

 

 

 

Bill

 

 

Bill,

 

I think I'm starting to "get" you on a gut level and why this is so close to you. Maybe?  I love the joy and exercise of mental math.   My grandma was a 4th grade teacher and she did exactly what you're talking about with me.  The curiosity of this is - my husband is mathy.  He is extremely mathy - taking Calc II for fun in college. (What is fun about calculus??!?!)  I am incredibly math inept - took a college algebra course (think of it as a late Alg. 2 / intro Alg. 3,  just faster speed) last semester and dropped it in tears at the deadline because it was going to hurt my GPA.   Despite effort, I am just *not* a math person.

 

Why I'm adding this and why it's odd - I am really strong in mental math and calculations, seeing logic in math puzzles, sorting through sequences, missing numbers, etc., and i think of math in terms like you outline it above.  Mammoth Math does math like this from what I could tell from the limited time we used it.  It's delightful!  But DH heard me teaching her to do faster mental math (differently than how she does it, remember, she's my math kid) and he doesn't think like that.  Not at all.  It was very curious to me.  He learned memorization, no "tricks" and no play.

 

So, when I liken this to differing reading abilities, which I better grasp, I think of it like this:

 

I learned phonics.  I'm an incredible reader and speller.

Oldest DS is dyslexic.  He learned phonics, but intrinsically absorbed it via memorization.  He's an excellent reader.  

The catch is that I have more tools in my toolchest to pull out and apply to a word.

 

So I would *think* that thinking the way I do about math would make me more adept than DH.  It does not.  Curious how things play out against theory.  Odd, really.  

(And then I added in Xtra Math for rote memory work.  Memorization *absolutely* has it's place.  I think it's like phonics, IMO.  When a child doesn't have phonetic "tools" their mind has to grind at the decoding and the comprehension ability goes down.  When a child has to "grind" at the computation then their comprehension goes down.  I honestly believe memorization has it's place.)

[PeterPan]

Does he like graphing? There are lots of "graph coordinate points to make a cute picture"

 

I'm such a goober, I hadn't thought to just google it!  You're right, I just found a bunch!  :D

[PeterPan]

Wapiti, we've done a LOT of work with c-rods.  We haven't *quite* finished the RB C-Rods book.  We had a lot (lot) of behaviors to deal with and that sort of side-tracked us.  But now that's on-track and doing better.  He makes jumps, so he's like slow, slow, and then ZOOM and the thing is too easy.  But it's zoom in his world, which means like oh now bridging finally makes sense, lol.  And when I say behaviors, it means I had to have the ABA tutor do things, which means I spend hours coordinating things a college student, not hip on math, can do but still maintain his pleasure in math.  And I mean HOURS, hours that could have gone to prepping RB, sigh.  But it's just how it is.  Things are finally settling back down, so my goal is to finish out RB C-rods by Christmas.  

 

So yes, we've done a lot with c-rods.  We've done them for pleasure (art, make the object sheets), low key fun (solve the simple computation, make a nifty picture), just plain playing, and of course our RB lessons and extending those to OTHER manipulatives and modalities so everything generalizes.  It's just going to take a while.  He doesn't even consistently know the names of coins, even though we've worked and worked on them.  I'm just glad the *concept* has clicked, even if he still can't remember them, lol.  

 

Which is all to say, if anyone thinks oh you just show them with the rods and then they GET it, well I KNOW that, in general.  But imagine having to go from one side of Moscow to the other on the subway (a long trip!) to do something you normally would have done with a 3 minute buzz to the grocery store.  Making connections in his brain is like that.  The roads won't build. You have to hire workers and move dirt and wait for the weather and...  And eventually he goes Oh yeah, I'm ready to make that road!  And then PRESTO the road is built!  And then later you say hey can we drive that road, and he goes oh which map was that road on?  And you go well on your small town map, and then you realize he put on the airport map.  And you're like WHY did you put it on the airport map?  And he's like, well because I like planes.  And you're like BUT ALL I WANTED TO DO WAS GO TO THE GROCERY STORE AND BUY 6 APPLES AND 3 BANANAS!  

 

That's what it's like teaching him.  But we get there.  And since grocery shopping is crunchy, we do other things he can do better.  Because if you ask him to build the plane to go with the plane map, he can design it.  He's just not good at getting you 3 bananas and 6 apples.

Edited November 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[idnib]

I thought folks here might like this Eulerian circuits activity by John David Hamkins.  My kids loved it. Lots of thinking, but with coloring and low digits. He has a link to the uncolored pages here (pdf) to save you the time of reproducing all of it. His other "math for kids" materials are great too.

[Spy Car]

I think I owe Bill an apology. I was irritated with the way he entered this thread without apparent  consideration for the question and discussion at hand. I still think that jumping in the way he did was not an appropriate response to a poster asking a legitimate question of which he was definitely not the target audience.

 

I went on however to make and express assumptions about his motivations and character that were uncalled for. 

 

I am sorry, Bill, and will delete my comments if you would like.

 

I appreciate the apology. I've always liked you and, to be honest, it hurt my feelings.

 

I generally hold my tongue when I see better-late-than-early threads. I happen to believe the movement has done great harm. The biggest virtue of home education IMO is being able to nurture a child one-on-one. I know there are may avenues of nurture. But just as providing a language-rich makes a difference with young children, so in my estimation is laying a foundation of numeracy, reasoning, and problem-solving.

 

If it was the wrong time (or place) to pop off, I'm sorry for that. I definitely had no intention to suggest anyone posting in this thread is guilty of neglecting their children (it was actually the furthest thing from my mind).

 

While I am not a homeschooler, we do have 8.5 years of sustained home education going because I value (very highly) what the home education model brings to a child's education. I hope people understand that I'm pro-home-education and pro-education in general. Things that undermine good education provoke different feelings.

 

Bill 

[Spy Car]

Generally, no, because I'm yet to read anything positive you've posted about home education, as performed by actual home educators in general, as opposed to those who 'earn' your approval through also educating gifted or math loving kids, or through agreeing with your ideas.

 

But I look forward to seeing evidence of this pro homeschool attitude some time in the future.

 

Your apology is a faux apology - "IF it was the wrong time or place to pop off' ?

 

It was. A truly felt apology would have said 'It WAS the wrong time and place to get on my soap box.'

 

You have issues. Deal with them.

 

Bill

[PeterPan]

I thought folks here might like this Eulerian circuits activity by John David Hamkins.  My kids loved it. Lots of thinking, but with coloring and low digits. He has a link to the uncolored pages here (pdf) to save you the time of reproducing all of it. His other "math for kids" materials are great too.

 

Oh my goodness, that is WAY fun!  And that's definitely the kind of stuff my ds will enjoy.   :D  

 

How do I find more of it?  Like what is it called or what words am I looking for?  And what broader terms could I search for that would get me to similar categories if nifty mathy things?

SaveSave

Edited November 5, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[idnib]

Oh my goodness, that is WAY fun!  And that's definitely the kind of stuff my ds will enjoy.   :D  

 

How do I find more of it?  Like what is it called or what words am I looking for?  And what broader terms could I search for that would get me to similar categories if nifty mathy things?

SaveSave

 

Glad you like it!

 

Can you be more specific about what you're looking for more of? There is more at the link I posted: http://jdh.hamkins.org/category/math-for-kids/

[PeterPan]

idnib, I think in my brilliance I missed that link.  :)  I'll look through there now, thanks!  :)

[Spy Car]

Yep, I don't let mansplaining men off the hook as quickly or easily as they'd like. Deal with it.

 

This man is putting you on ignore (an action that is long over-due).

 

Bye bye!

 

Bill

[ktgrok]

Generally, no, because I'm yet to read anything positive you've posted about home education, as performed by actual home educators in general, as opposed to those who 'earn' your approval through also educating gifted or math loving kids, or through agreeing with your ideas.

 

But I look forward to seeing evidence of this pro homeschool attitude some time in the future.

 

Your apology is a faux apology - "IF it was the wrong time or place to pop off' ?

 

It was. A truly felt apology would have said 'It WAS the wrong time and place to get on my soap box.'

 

She's right on this point, Bill. You say no one in this thread was doing anything wrong, and yet you started lecturing everyone on the evils of something. You very very clearly made it sound like the OP was neglecting her children. That wasn't cool. Just admit it was wrong and say sorry. 

 

Saying "If I was wrong, I'm sorry" isn't the same thing. I know, I have a teenager :)

[Bluegoat]

Trader Joes has really good coffee candy.  I don't drink coffee, but I like their coffee candy (a little too much!) and coffee milkshakes.  But the one breaks the diet and the other doesn't.  Hmm.

 

Besides, what are we supposed to devolve into?  We're going to debate whether uneducated people, dumb people, and lemmings exist?  I mean, dude, all we have to do is turn on the tv.  Life isn't fair, and not all kids get equal access to everything.  I've given up trying to understand the nature of all of it.  I try to work in my own little corner.  There are pro-active ways to harness your passions.  Teach online classes, tutor pro-bono, change the world.  Get on your school board.  Actually do something to effect change.  I have this idea (that I haven't had time to completely research yet), that we ought to bring OG tutoring to our public libraries.  This is change we can actually make happen!  I live in an area where 70% of the kids live below the poverty level and will never have access to the high quality tutoring 10 minutes away.  So why should our libraries NOT provide this kind of service to give access to their kids?  I found that San Francisco has a similar program.  I'm just looking for programs and how we actually make it HAPPEN.  

 

Don't just talk change.  Make change.  

 

Adding: If anybody actually knows how to do that or has a library that offers reading tutors, I'd welcome the info.  

 

Our library offers reading tutors for adults and kids.

 

I think there are actually two programs for kids, one of which includes therapy dogs.