Radiolab podcast on homeschooler with no identity?

[Crimson Wife]

 

And again this is not a homeschooling issue anyway. It is a citizenship and identity issue. It has nothing to do with educational choice.

 

You're right, it isn't a homeschooling issue and that is why I'm getting so frustrated with it being used as ammunition against homeschooling by critics.

[RootAnn]

Well, in the two states where I've given birth, the certificates came in the mail automatically. So yeah, I definitely would've noticed had it failed to arrive in a timely fashion (as IMHO any responsible parent would).

 

In the two states where I've given birth, you have to request the certificates, send in money and a copy of your driver's license (or go in person).

 

I meant that it was required by public schools and I wouldn't find it onerous to do so myself.

 

I don't see the need to be defensive about homeschooling when abusive people homeschool. I'm not an abusive person who homeschools. I definitely don't need to defend those who are or pretend that homeschoolers are all above reproach. That the same thing could have happened with some private school is irrelevant.

 

The state that I currently homeschool in requires that you send in a certified copy of a birth certificate the first time you file as homeschooling that child. (For us, that means ~ 7 yrs old or 1st grade, whichever comes first.) They send it back to you once they've checked it & made a copy. I believe it is required because of a missing children's law. (ETA: Yep. An old law passed a few years after I was born. You can also provide other reliable proof of the child's identity and age and an affidavit explaining the inability to produce a copy of the birth certificate.)

 

Now it's in most parent's tax interests to get their child a SS number. You need a BC to obtain that. Not that folks like the Penningtons care too much about not flaunting tax filing requirements.

 

I thought it was the law that all babies born (in hospitals?) have to get SS#s. (Someone told me this somewhere between my first and fifth kids. Can't remember when or who.)  I just looked & realized it isn't. Learn something new every day.  [That link, above, is evil. Yipes.]

Edited September 2, 2016 by RootAnn

[LucyStoner]

Who is advocating for standardized tests or portfolios as a remedy for identification abuse? I can see why people advocate for testing and reporting but it's a separate issue entirely.

 

The Penningtons are rare but they are not alone. While not all like minded people homeschool their children, it is safe to say that such people are probably more represented in homeschooling or tiny private schools compared to the general population. This doesn't mean homeschooling should be suspect but I grasp why for some it is. The most vocal and organized proponents of change in homeschooling right now all seem to be homeschooling alumni. I might not agree with them on everything but I don't deny thenpm their right to express their opinion or lobby for what they want. Hell, the Pennington's get to argue for what they want too. But the line for me is crossed when they tried to force their daughter to live outside the law. They can have their opinions, they don't get to obliterate her rights.

[LucyStoner]

In the two states where I've given birth, you have to request the certificates, send in money and a copy of your driver's license (or go in person).

 

 

The state that I currently homeschool in requires that you send in a certified copy of a birth certificate the first time you file as homeschooling that child. (For us, that means ~ 7 yrs old or 1st grade, whichever comes first.) They send it back to you once they've checked it & made a copy. I believe it is required because of a missing children's law.

 

 

I thought it was the law that all babies born (in hospitals?) have to get SS#s. (Someone told me this somewhere between my first and fifth kids. Can't remember when or who.) I just looked & realized it isn't. Learn something new every day. [That link, above, is evil. Yipes.]

No, many hospitals will help you file the SS paperwork with the birth registry form but they don't have to in all states. My older son's SS number was requested by the hospital. My younger son's was not and I recall having to do it myself in time to file our taxes (he was born at the end of the year and I wanted to be able to claim him as a dependent for that tax year but tax day was approaching, lol.)

[Scarlett]

I listened last night. Those parents take obedience as a virtue to an un-virtuous place! 23 and not being allowed to get a job? Having to sneak your grandparents phone number?

 

When I was 23 I'd been married two years, had a baby,a good education and a decent start in my professional life.

 

It's infantalizing for parents to try to control an adult like that.

 

She didn't seem to be exaggerating or overly critical of her parents. She seems lost.

 

I think parents and midwives should face criminal penalties for not filing a birth certificate.

 

I have an aunt, who for a myriad of reasons too wacky to enumerate here, does not have a birth certificate and has been unable to get one. Her state will no longer issue her an ID or drivers license and she has to deal in a cash economy. She can't volunteer to chaperone her children's school fieldtrips because they can't background check her. She can't take her kids to Mexico or Canada, can no longer buy car insurance in her name. She can't prove her American citizenship (she was definitely born in Chicago). The tax and benefits ramifications are staggering (she does pay taxes for example but has no SocSec file) and that's not the end of it. The only person who could have helped her is now dead and wouldn't budge to help her in life (because in doing so, that dead person would have had to admit to felonious acts and because that dead person was just a horrible excuse for a human being). Different reasons but the same convoluted mess.

 

Too much rides on American citizenship and the need for identification for parents to not be obligated to file a birth certificate.

I agree. My xMIL lost her birth certificate and when she went to request a new one there was no record of her birth. Thankfully she had already filed for SS....and she has a drivers license from a state she used to live in which she keeps current...they won't let her get a licence in her new state because she doesn't have her birth certificate. She is 86 now and shouldn't be driving anyway but she lost her bc 15 years ago....and since she is so old there is no one left to attest to her being who she is. It really can turn to a mess very rapidly.

[Crimson Wife]

Who is advocating for standardized tests or portfolios as a remedy for identification abuse? I can see why people advocate for testing and reporting but it's a separate issue entirely.

 

The people who are advocating for increasing regulation of HSers have used the Pennington case to further their agenda. What is the name of that group of ex-ATI kids again? Homeschool Alumni ______ (I'm blanking on the specific name). The last time this was in the news they were all over the media talking about how this case meant that HSing needs to be more strictly regulated.

[Farrar]

I think it *is* a homeschooling issue in that the main way for this not to happen to a kid is that schools are used at the primary check. So if you want to avoid documenting your child in any way, then the way to do it is to homebirth, not file for a birth certificate or ssn, and then homeschool. The intervention needs to be on one of those levels - requiring the paperwork (with some teeth somehow), regulating homebirths more, or regulating homeschooling more.

 

I think homebirth regulation is already a mess in most states and is such a mess that people who want to homebirth routinely go outside the system to do it without licensed midwives in some states. I wouldn't mind requiring all midwives to file ensure that a birth certificate is filed for, but considering that lay midwives who are already operating outside the law (or just no midwife at all - some of the larger families I've known just didn't bother having any attendant at the birth of some of their kids), it feels like it wouldn't do much. There are also homeschoolers that go outside the system and don't register in states that require it... but I think the numbers are lower, though, who knows, it's just a hunch. It might be easier to require that documentation is provided when homeschoolers register with their states... but, again, we hit a problem, which is that no registration at all is required in many states. So, again, it might help a few kids, but not this woman, who grew up in Texas, I believe.

 

In general, I have zero objection to requiring that homeschoolers send a notice of intent to their state every year. And that it, perhaps, have proof of ssn and/or birth certificate when they first file. It's hard for me to see that as "increased regulation" honestly. Yes, it's an added bureaucratic hoop. But if it stops this, I really have no problem doing it. And it's such a minor thing. I mean, if I had to send a digital birth certificate to the homeschool office back when I first registered, that would have been so nothing. Who does that hurt? How does that impinge on my freedom to educate my kids? It just doesn't.

[FaithManor]

 

In general, I have zero objection to requiring that homeschoolers send a notice of intent to their state every year. And that it, perhaps, have proof of ssn and/or birth certificate when they first file. It's hard for me to see that as "increased regulation" honestly. Yes, it's an added bureaucratic hoop. But if it stops this, I really have no problem doing it. And it's such a minor thing. I mean, if I had to send a digital birth certificate to the homeschool office back when I first registered, that would have been so nothing. Who does that hurt? How does that impinge on my freedom to educate my kids? It just doesn't.

Absolutely agree. The state absolutely has a vested interest in the education of its citizens. Education to a certain level - GED - or commensurate with the neurological capabilities of the child is considered a public good and a basic right which it for sure is in this day and age. So by the very nature of the beast, the right of the parent cannot impinge upon the right of the child. Getting a birth certificate and sending a copy to the state with a letter of intent to homeschool does not infringe on a parent's ability to educate the child. It does help ensure that an identity and paper trail for the child has been instituted so said student can choose to function as an adult outside of parental belief if need be.

 

The problem is that many homeschoolers do not believe in a set of basic human rights for children that includes access to education and access to vital documentation.

 

This is one reason I am deeply opposed to the FAFSA system for college students which puts grown adults at the mercy of uncooperative parents preventing them from getting financial aid, student loans, and in many cases, scholarships and student housing. As a mentor of several ATI runaways/couch surfers, I can tell you that this is a very serious problem for young adults exiting cults.

[Haiku]

If they don't sign affidavits when the other kids want to get their BC, the new law in TX is subject to a fine or 364 days in jail. 

 

As much as I don't agree with what those parents did and are doing, I don't want to live in a place that makes me choose between signing an affidavit and going to jail. Affidavits are supposed to be voluntary. We should not coerce them.

 

Rather than amending penal laws to address fringe issues, maybe laws that give people who are in the position of the daughter more rights and more ways to mediate the issue would be the better course.

[StephanieZ]

Well, in the two states where I've given birth, the certificates came in the mail automatically. So yeah, I definitely would've noticed had it failed to arrive in a timely fashion (as IMHO any responsible parent would).

 

Probably because you had your babies in a hospital or with a formal medical midwife at home?

 

I had one of mine at home in a state where there were no legal attendants (GA, lay midwives were illegal and nurse midwifes legally prohibited from attending home births as a condition of licensure), so we had to go to the tiny courthouse in our town, swear that we'd had our baby all my ourselves at home . . . in order to get her birth certificate. Our "friend" advised us on the need to do this, and we were certainly not off-the-grid people, but I'm also pretty anal about paperwork/legal stuff. I could totally see (some) other families just flaking out and not getting it done. I think there was a serious time limit too, like maybe we needed to go do it within 2-4 weeks of birth or something like that. 

 

So, anyway, if you have a lay midwife, it is entirely possible that you have to go to some effort to get the birth certificates. We did for babe #1. :) 

 

(One of my kids was born in a hospital. One was born at home with a nurse midwife in a formal medical practice. For those two, I didn't have to do anything to get their birth certificates other than maybe pay a few $$ to get extra copies. It was all automatic.)

[LucyStoner]

As much as I don't agree with what those parents did and are doing, I don't want to live in a place that makes me choose between signing an affidavit and going to jail. Affidavits are supposed to be voluntary. We should not coerce them.

 

Rather than amending penal laws to address fringe issues, maybe laws that give people who are in the position of the daughter more rights and more ways to mediate the issue would be the better course.

There are other forms that if one doesn't do or sign they can be fined or jailed or even prosecuted for a felony. People claiming "sovereignty" get fined and jailed for not filing their various income tax forms for instance.

 

If I am subpoenaed to testify in court, the judge can toss me in jail if I don't show up or if when I do show up I refuse to answer questions. There are many times when people can be and are required by law to appear or participate in court proceedings, even ones that they are a mere witness too.

 

The parents don't have the right to deny their children their citizenship.

 

The right of the parents to not sign a piece of paper or file a form against their will pales in comparison to the rights of which they are robbing their children

 

While this is rare, it deserves a remedy that holds the weight of law.

 

If we can require parents to feed, house and clothe their children at great personal expense for 18 years, we can require them to authenticate the child's claim to citizenship.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Crimson Wife]

I think it *is* a homeschooling issue in that the main way for this not to happen to a kid is that schools are used at the primary check. So if you want to avoid documenting your child in any way, then the way to do it is to homebirth, not file for a birth certificate or ssn, and then homeschool. The intervention needs to be on one of those levels - requiring the paperwork (with some teeth somehow), regulating homebirths more, or regulating homeschooling more.

 

PUBLIC schools require it. I would have no problem with the state imposing a requirement on both private and home schools for them to check the birth certificate. I would object to requiring it for home schools but not private schools. If there's a legitimate reason to have the requirement (which I agree that there is), impose it equally on all types of schools. Don't single out homeschoolers for regulatory burdens not imposed on private schools.

[Crimson Wife]

The problem is that many homeschoolers do not believe in a set of basic human rights for children that includes access to education and access to vital documentation.

 

The problem is that many adherents to a cult-like religious movement (that also happens to promote homeschooling) do not believe in these things. This story could've easily have happened to a graduate of some private religious school. It's the whackadoodle worldview that's at fault, not homeschooling per se. That's why the remedy needs to not be homeschooling-specific.

[LucyStoner]

Also, while I am no fan of the Penningtons, their intentions were more or less well meaning. They seem over the top and extreme in their views (and it sounds like he's run afoul of the tax system at some point) but it doesn't sound like Faith and her siblings were physically abused or neglected. There's some degree of dysfunction there for sure yet it's not a case of Pennington's house of horrors or some such awfulness. That said, I don't have to look further than my aunt's situation to see that identification abuse can be and is used to much more dire ends.

 

Perhaps it's the side effect of having a bonafide criminal as a grandmother but I can devise half a dozen ways where identification abuse would help people who are, to put it very lightly, "up to no good" do far worse things than the Penningtons. I'm sure those and others are happening as I type.

 

The legal changes this case triggered aren't just for the wacky friendly sovereign wannabe homesteading homeschoolers...it's also for the myriad of other situations where this potentially comes into play. Common? Not especially. But crimes need not be common to be serious.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Daria]

Several people have mentioned this. I stridently disagree. Our carceral state is way out of control, and, imo, people who are not a danger to society should not be in jail. I'm not willing to pay to incarcerate people for being nutjobs or whackadoos or whatever. I think that there are other ways to handle the problem besides "throw the book at them!" 

 

I'm not sure I think jail is the right solution, but this young woman is part of society.  If breaking the law in a manner that leads to denying an adult the right to work or move about freely or register to vote isn't dangerous to society, I'm not sure you can make the case that stealing someone's purse is.  After all, it's much easier to replace ID than it is to get one from step one.  

[Farrar]

PUBLIC schools require it. I would have no problem with the state imposing a requirement on both private and home schools for them to check the birth certificate. I would object to requiring it for home schools but not private schools. If there's a legitimate reason to have the requirement (which I agree that there is), impose it equally on all types of schools. Don't single out homeschoolers for regulatory burdens not imposed on private schools.

 

I'd be fine with that as well though. Most private schools do require documentation in various ways and I know that to operate as a school, the private school I worked at the longest had to take documentation from kids, but you're right, probably not all states require it any more than all states require homeschool notification of any kind.

[LucyStoner]

I'm kind of curious how people who subscribe to this idea of sovereignty distinguish themselves from anarchists. The Nauglers (remember them, lol) are subscribers to this notion and it doesn't make sense to me. They claim that the power of the king was transferred to each of the people of America somehow. It's such a weak argument.

 

And given that Mr. Pennington *must* have an ID (he's registered as a CPA with the state of Texas and one can not obtain the required educational degree or even sit for exam without legal identification) I find him rather hypocritical. The parents at one point changed their names legally which is another process that requires one to produce proof of who you are. So it's all right for them to exist on the books but not the kids.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Corraleno]

Also, while I am no fan of the Penningtons, their intentions were more or less well meaning. They seem over the top and extreme in their views (and it sounds like he's run afoul of the tax system at some point) but it doesn't sound like Faith and her siblings were physically abused or neglected. There's some degree of dysfunction there for sure yet it's not a case of Pennington's house of horrors or some such awfulness. That said, I don't have to look further than my aunt's situation to see that identification abuse can be and is used to much more dire ends.

 

No it really was (is) a house of horrors and the parents are mentally, emotionally, and even physically abusive. Lisa Pennington deleted tons of stuff from her blog when Alecia left home and all the publicity started. They require their adult children to live at home and work in the family businesses essentially for free, in return for room and board. And Lisa has posted that while living at home the adult children are expected to do exactly as they're told — including what time to get up, get dressed, what chores to do, etc. The oldest daughter, Grace, was 23 before she was allowed to get a driver's license and I think the son, Jacob, was 21, and even then neither of them is allowed to borrow the car, or basically even leave the house, unless the parents know and approve of exactly where they are going and for how long.  And Lisa has stated on her blog that eating and having their own room are also privileges, which adult children can lose for disobedience! We're talking about adults in their 20s who are not allowed to hold jobs or leave the house without permission, and who can be denied food if they don't do what their parents say. And the way they keep them prisoner is by denying them any proof of their own identity.

 

As for the physical abuse, here's a lovely little excerpt from her blog where she brags about beating her 15 month old toddler into submission when he dared refuse her order to say "Hi Mommy":

 

 

"This has been a long afternoon for Mommy and Baby. When I got him up from his nap I said to him (like I do every day), "Say 'Hi Mommy!' " But this afternoon, instead of his usual, "Hi Mommy!" he said nothing. He refused, I mean refused, to say it.

 

You can make a baby do things. For example, if you say, "Pick that up" and they won't do it, you can lead them to the item, take their little hand and make them pick it up.But there are four things you can NOT make a baby do.

1. Sleep

2. eat

3 poop/pee

4. speak

 

In this case, Baby wouldn't say something that I told him to say. It wasn't like he just looked around and did something else. He was obviously disobeying me. Like I said, I can't make him speak. But I can make him sit; I can make him open a book; I can make him come to me when called. But there is no way to make him speak. So what do I do? I'm glad you asked.

 

I make him miserable, absolutely miserable. At first I called the other children in and I said, "Say 'Hi Mommy' " and they would repeat, "Hi Mommy". Baby could see their example. He would say hi to them, but not to me. More proof that he is deliberately not obeying me.

 

Next I got out his favorite snack (he is in my arms this whole time....no opportunity to go anywhere else or be entertained). He reached for it. "Say Hi Mommy". Nothing. I would call in a couple of the little boys. I'd tell them to say it and when they did, I gave them a bit of the snack. Baby would reach for it and I would pull back. "Say 'Hi Mommy' ". It apparently wasn't worth it to him. OK, we'll figure out what is worth it.

 

I took him back into my room where he begged to see G&G's picture on the computer (this is one of his favorite things to do). "Say 'Hi Mommy' " Nope. Finally I sat him on my lap facing me and when I told him to say it he shook his head, no. So I got my teeny, tiny baby spanker. It's a little back scratcher that barely stings, but it's great for babies.

 

One little swat and he screamed. "No screaming" I'd say (in a very gentle way....I always spoke gently and calmly) and give him another little swat. When he'd stop I'd tell him again to say "Hi Mommy." Nope. Swat. Cry. Swat. This went on for about 30 minutes. I'd cradle him and rock him and he would be soothed, then I'd tell him again, "Say 'Hi Mommy.' " over and over.

 

Finally, when I was trying to decide if he would get dinner or not (I was actually thinking I would give him something else besides the pizza that everyone else was having because he is too young to go without a meal), he leaned his head on my shoulder and said, "Hi Mommy." and it was over.

 

All of the children cheered when I brought him out. He was exhausted, but he got a little snack and a special drink. Now he's happily eating his dinner and saying "Hi Mommy" all I want.

 

The victory for me isn't that he will say "Hi Mommy", but that he understands that he has to do what I say. This is a lesson that will carry on into his future and keep him safe and secure. It will help to lead him to that greater relationship with our Lord. Obedience to Christ will come easier to him because of what we have taught him in these formative years.

 

Of course, I didn't get done what I had planned this afternoon. We had to order pizza because I couldn't make dinner. I had to set everything aside to do this. But I never wished for anything else. It was a great opportunity to spend these precious moments with my sweet boy."

Anyone who would beat a baby for half an hour because he won't say "Hi Mommy" — and then refer to the experience as "precious moments" — is a twisted NPD sociopath, in my not-so-humble opinion. I would be quite happy to see both her and her slimeball control freak husband spend some time in the county jail until they give Alecia the affidavit she needs to get her identity and citizenship. I cannot fathom why they have not been compelled to do that.

[LucyStoner]

I stand corrected. Alecia Faith's tone towards them has been so gentle I underestimated them.

 

Lisa Pennington's blog is apparently quite popular and they are active in Texas homeschooling groups. yuck.

 

My aunt was forced to get married when she was roughly 13. My mom tried to stop it but the social worker wouldn't do anything because "mom" signed a statement she was 15. The guy was 25. My mom could have stopped it if she had proof of my aunt's age or could have obtained it from the state. So houses of horror can take many forms.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

I totally agree with you that the "hi mommy" toddler beat down is definitely in the range of lunacy.

 

My heart breaks for kids raised like that. I'm so glad that even one of them has left. Hopefully others do too.

[kitten18]

 

No it really was (is) a house of horrors and the parents are mentally, emotionally, and even physically abusive. Lisa Pennington deleted tons of stuff from her blog when Alecia left home and all the publicity started. They require their adult children to live at home and work in the family businesses essentially for free, in return for room and board. And Lisa has posted that while living at home the adult children are expected to do exactly as they're told — including what time to get up, get dressed, what chores to do, etc. The oldest daughter, Grace, was 23 before she was allowed to get a driver's license and I think the son, Jacob, was 21, and even then neither of them is allowed to borrow the car, or basically even leave the house, unless the parents know and approve of exactly where they are going and for how long. And Lisa has stated on her blog that eating and having their own room are also privileges, which adult children can lose for disobedience! We're talking about adults in their 20s who are not allowed to hold jobs or leave the house without permission, and who can be denied food if they don't do what their parents say. And the way they keep them prisoner is by denying them any proof of their own identity.

 

As for the physical abuse, here's a lovely little excerpt from her blog where she brags about beating her 15 month old toddler into submission when he dared refuse her order to say "Hi Mommy":

 

 

 

Anyone who would beat a baby for half an hour because he won't say "Hi Mommy" — and then refer to the experience as "precious moments" — is a twisted NPD sociopath, in my not-so-humble opinion. I would be quite happy to see both her and her slimeball control freak husband spend some time in the county jail until they give Alecia the affidavit she needs to get her identity and citizenship. I cannot fathom why they have not been compelled to do that.

OMG

I broke out in a cold sweat reading that.

That is so sick.

 

 

 

And I agree with the first part of your post. They are holding these children (and adults) as prisoners.

[Lady Florida.]

I had no idea that this poor girl is still going through this. I remember when she started with #helpmeproveit, and for some reason I thought it had been worked out with the parents. I wish they'd get thrown in jail and the other kids sent to the grandparents (yes the ones the Penningtons don't want contact with) until they agree to provide their daughter with the documentation she needs.

[LucyStoner]

What is their home business? I thought he was a CPA. CPAs can make good money though it's a frigging weird occupational choice for an antigovernment type since most of what distinguishes the work a general accountant can do from a CPA is quite literally PUBLIC accounting- verifying that a set of government mandated accounting standards are followed for companies which must release public accounting disclosures. maybe he specializes in tax evasion. Who knows, doesn't matter but it's a weird role for a man like that.

[LucyStoner]

I had no idea that this poor girl is still going through this. I remember when she started with #helpmeproveit, and for some reason I thought it had been worked out with the parents. I wish they'd get thrown in jail and the other kids sent to the grandparents (yes the ones the Penningtons don't want contact with) until they agree to provide their daughter with the documentation she needs.

She has her birth certificate now but not due to their assistance at all.

[Corraleno]

What is their home business? I thought he was a CPA. CPAs can make good money though it's a frigging weird occupational choice for an antigovernment type since most of what distinguishes the work a general accountant can do from a CPA is quite literally PUBLIC accounting- verifying that a set of government mandated accounting standards are followed for companies which must release public accounting disclosures. maybe he specializes in tax evasion. Who knows, doesn't matter but it's a weird role for a man like that.

 

He does specialize in tax evasion! He helps other people like them avoid paying taxes. He also has a law degree from an unaccredited law school, and he set up his legal and accounting firm as a church to avoid taxes, which caused some problems with the IRS. Lisa had an etsy business where they sold essential oils and various handicrafts, mostly made by the girls.

[LucyStoner]

He does specialize in tax evasion! He helps other people like them avoid paying taxes. He also has a law degree from an unaccredited law school, and he set up his legal and accounting firm as a church to avoid taxes, which caused some problems with the IRS. Lisa had an etsy business where they sold essential oils and various handicrafts, mostly made by the girls.

But of course. Oils and tax evasion. Goes with everything.

 

Though if his shannagins get too much IRS attention he could land in jail. Also the accountancy board can pull his license if he's violating the ethical standards of his profession. The whole sovereignty thing as it relates to taxes is a scam that the IRS takes a hard line on and it's basically a crime to dish it out as tax advice.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Corraleno]

I just read on her FB page that her passport application was successful, and as soon as that arrives in the mail, she can use it to finally get a Social Security card, which is the last missing piece of the puzzle. So it seems like the end is in sight! 

 

The fact that her father, and the homeschool groups he's involved in, got revenge on the state representative who helped her by financing the campaign of her (successful) primary challenger, just makes me hate him even more. What a pig. 

 

ETA: And she mentioned in the comments that two of her siblings have also moved out now and are trying to get birth certificates.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Corraleno

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe the US should consider voting on ratifying the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. 

 

Article 7 

1. The child shall be registered immediately after birth and shall have the right from birth to a name, the right to acquire a nationality and. as far as possible, the right to know and be cared for by his or her parents. 

2. States Parties shall ensure the implementation of these rights in accordance with their national law and their obligations under the relevant international instruments in this field, in particular where the child would otherwise be stateless.

[FaithManor]

Uhmm....this woman beats a baby for 30 minutes, brags about it online - clearly screen shots are available - and she did not go to jail????

 

%*¢®©€^«»<>%¡*·$&!##?$!

[maize]

Yikes, that baby story  :crying:  :crying:  :crying:

 

How, oh how,  can anyone believe that this kind of treatment of a baby has anything Godly about it?!?

[maize]

I do think there should be a law on the books requiring identity registration for children, and access to identity documents for adults.

 

It won't stop people from going underground (I know there are local homeschoolers who eschew registering in our very, very low requirement state) but it will provide legal recourse in a case like this.

[Lady Florida.]

 

 

ETA: And she mentioned in the comments that two of her siblings have also moved out now and are trying to get birth certificates.

 

Good. I hope all their kids leave them as they get old enough. They're disgusting.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Lady Florida.

[Xahm]

This is off topic a bit, but GA has decided to make it as easy as possible to get birth certificates for all babies. Now homebirth midwives can send in the paperwork. All parents have to do is pay to pick up a copy or have own mailed, just as they have to do for hospital births. And the SS card arrives automatically unless parents opt out.

 

Probably because you had your babIies in a hospital or with a formal medical midwife at home?

 

I had one of mine at home in a state where there were no legal attendants (GA, lay midwives were illegal and nurse midwifes legally prohibited from attending home births as a condition of licensure), so we had to go to the tiny courthouse in our town, swear that we'd had our baby all my ourselves at home . . . in order to get her birth certificate. Our "friend" advised us on the need to do this, and we were certainly not off-the-grid people, but I'm also pretty anal about paperwork/legal stuff. I could totally see (some) other families just flaking out and not getting it done. I think there was a serious time limit too, like maybe we needed to go do it within 2-4 weeks of birth or something like that.

 

So, anyway, if you have a lay midwife, it is entirely possible that you have to go to some effort to get the birth certificates. We did for babe #1. :)

 

(One of my kids was born in a hospital. One was born at home with a nurse midwife in a formal medical practice. For those two, I didn't have to do anything to get their birth certificates other than maybe pay a few $$ to get extra copies. It was all automatic.)

[ktgrok]

This is off topic a bit, but GA has decided to make it as easy as possible to get birth certificates for all babies. Now homebirth midwives can send in the paperwork. All parents have to do is pay to pick up a copy or have own mailed, just as they have to do for hospital births. And the SS card arrives automatically unless parents opt out.

 

 

Florida is similar. I've had that process for my last two births, both home births. 

[TranquilMind]

I didn't feel like they particularly played up the homeschooling in the show, though. They focused more on people who wanted to be sovereign, or whatever it was called.

 

It's a nice idea to not have any "government strings" attached to your life. Not so nice of an idea when it means you literally can't get a job to feed yourself.

 

We had an unassisted homebirth and had a fairly difficult time getting a birth certificate. Had to get a statement from an OB and pediatrician. Ped fired us as patients and refused to say baby existed because he was mad about the birth. We had a heck of a time getting in with a ped who would actually agree to see the baby and write a statement. I can only imagine what happens if you wait 20 years to take care of things.

 

This really surprises me.  All we had to do is show up at the Health Department with the baby so they could see it, and they issued birth certificates. 

[redsquirrel]

How do undocumented students (children of undocumented immigrants) end up in the school system? I'm not trying to spark an immigration debate, in sincerely curious.

 

I didn't have to present a birth certificate when I enrolled ds2 in our public high school.  I got it ready and they didn't look at it and handed it back to me. They didn't care where he was born. They did care very much that I could prove residency within the district and his vaccination records.  And I have never had to present a birth certificate to the Dr office either.  My insurance card seems to be good enough, lol.

 

DS1 was born in a hospital and the hospital did all the paperwork for his birth certificate and SS number. Both came in the mail to me.  With ds2, he was born at home with a midwife and she sent in all the paperwork for a birth certificate and SS number. Again, they came in the mail. The only difference was that the midwife holds onto the paperwork for 2 weeks to make sure you don't want to change the baby's name. She says she's had too many parents call and ask if they could change it, lol. So now she gives you a grace period in case you have second thoughts.

 

 

[TranquilMind]

 

No it really was (is) a house of horrors and the parents are mentally, emotionally, and even physically abusive. Lisa Pennington deleted tons of stuff from her blog when Alecia left home and all the publicity started. They require their adult children to live at home and work in the family businesses essentially for free, in return for room and board. And Lisa has posted that while living at home the adult children are expected to do exactly as they're told — including what time to get up, get dressed, what chores to do, etc. The oldest daughter, Grace, was 23 before she was allowed to get a driver's license and I think the son, Jacob, was 21, and even then neither of them is allowed to borrow the car, or basically even leave the house, unless the parents know and approve of exactly where they are going and for how long.  And Lisa has stated on her blog that eating and having their own room are also privileges, which adult children can lose for disobedience! We're talking about adults in their 20s who are not allowed to hold jobs or leave the house without permission, and who can be denied food if they don't do what their parents say. And the way they keep them prisoner is by denying them any proof of their own identity.

 

As for the physical abuse, here's a lovely little excerpt from her blog where she brags about beating her 15 month old toddler into submission when he dared refuse her order to say "Hi Mommy":

 

 

Anyone who would beat a baby for half an hour because he won't say "Hi Mommy" — and then refer to the experience as "precious moments" — is a twisted NPD sociopath, in my not-so-humble opinion. I would be quite happy to see both her and her slimeball control freak husband spend some time in the county jail until they give Alecia the affidavit she needs to get her identity and citizenship. I cannot fathom why they have not been compelled to do that.

Where are you getting all this house of horrors stuff, their requirements for adult children,  and beating a baby stuff? 

 

I didn't find it.

 

I did find this:

 

After a week-long standoff with her parents, her father, accountant James Pennington, has now agreed to try to help her get proper documentation to prove that she is who she says she is, Alecia revealed on Friday on her Facebook page.

 

Jim Southworth, 71, said his granddaughter had texted him before he and his wife went to visit his daughter Lisa Pennington, her husband and their nine children in Kerrville, Texas last year.

 

'She said she was coming home with us. I texted her back saying she had to speak to her mother about that,' he said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html#ixzz4JDaHUtkn

 

I'm also confused as to how she got through nearly 20 years never even seeing a doctor.  If she had, there would be medical records.  She doesn't have to have been in the hospital for medical records to exist. 

[LucyStoner]

Apparently she only ever saw an orthodontist as a teen and at least one time, her uncle, who is a doctor.

[Scarlett]

 

No it really was (is) a house of horrors and the parents are mentally, emotionally, and even physically abusive. Lisa Pennington deleted tons of stuff from her blog when Alecia left home and all the publicity started. They require their adult children to live at home and work in the family businesses essentially for free, in return for room and board. And Lisa has posted that while living at home the adult children are expected to do exactly as they're told — including what time to get up, get dressed, what chores to do, etc. The oldest daughter, Grace, was 23 before she was allowed to get a driver's license and I think the son, Jacob, was 21, and even then neither of them is allowed to borrow the car, or basically even leave the house, unless the parents know and approve of exactly where they are going and for how long. And Lisa has stated on her blog that eating and having their own room are also privileges, which adult children can lose for disobedience! We're talking about adults in their 20s who are not allowed to hold jobs or leave the house without permission, and who can be denied food if they don't do what their parents say. And the way they keep them prisoner is by denying them any proof of their own identity.

 

As for the physical abuse, here's a lovely little excerpt from her blog where she brags about beating her 15 month old toddler into submission when he dared refuse her order to say "Hi Mommy":

 

 

 

Anyone who would beat a baby for half an hour because he won't say "Hi Mommy" — and then refer to the experience as "precious moments" — is a twisted NPD sociopath, in my not-so-humble opinion. I would be quite happy to see both her and her slimeball control freak husband spend some time in the county jail until they give Alecia the affidavit she needs to get her identity and citizenship. I cannot fathom why they have not been compelled to do that.

Good gravy. That is sickening. Sociopath indeed.

[Scarlett]

 

Where are you getting all this house of horrors stuff, their requirements for adult children, and beating a baby stuff?

 

I didn't find it.

 

I did find this:

 

After a week-long standoff with her parents, her father, accountant James Pennington, has now agreed to try to help her get proper documentation to prove that she is who she says she is, Alecia revealed on Friday on her Facebook page.

 

Jim Southworth, 71, said his granddaughter had texted him before he and his wife went to visit his daughter Lisa Pennington, her husband and their nine children in Kerrville, Texas last year.

 

'She said she was coming home with us. I texted her back saying she had to speak to her mother about that,' he said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html#ixzz4JDaHUtkn

I'm also confused as to how she got through nearly 20 years never even seeing a doctor. If she had, there would be medical records. She doesn't have to have been in the hospital for medical records to exist.

That is a feb 2015 article,

[ktgrok]

Lots of these people don't believe in allopathic medicine. 

[FaithManor]

I'm kind of curious how people who subscribe to this idea of sovereignty distinguish themselves from anarchists. The Nauglers (remember them, lol) are subscribers to this notion and it doesn't make sense to me. They claim that the power of the king was transferred to each of the people of America somehow. It's such a weak argument.

 

And given that Mr. Pennington *must* have an ID (he's registered as a CPA with the state of Texas and one can not obtain the required educational degree or even sit for exam without legal identification) I find him rather hypocritical. The parents at one point changed their names legally which is another process that requires one to produce proof of who you are. So it's all right for them to exist on the books but not the kids.

I believe the hypocrisy is designed to create adult serfs of the adult children for economic gain as well as parental laziness because the more work they can get out of the grown ones, the more free time the slimes have foe themselves.

 

Total NPD. It is no different than Doug Phillips who is an attorney and his sanctimonious wife Beall who has a bachelor's degree refusing a full high school education to their kids and claiming sending them to college is sin.

 

Same stupid NPD fundamentalism that thrives on power gained over others with a privileged few leaders being allowed to be the exceptions to the rules. I'd like to drop all these people at a biodome in the Saharra so no else has to be victimized by their narcissism.

[LucyStoner]

Also, both of her parents said they would help publically but privately did not. When she finally got her birth certificate, the evidence considered by the judge had no signed statement from her parents. Also, in a transcribed but deleted you tube video, Lisa Pennington said a birth certificate had been filed but then said that a delayed birth certificate was a great option for people like Alecia. A delayed birth certificate is only ever necessary if one wasn't filed at birth. Had the parents and/or midwife filed the birth certificate, all she would have needed to do was request a copy. Not having a birth certificate doesn't mean not having a copy. It means the state doesn't have any record of the birth. Because of the potential for ID and immigration fraud or assuming a new identify to avoid legal, tax or debt obligations, the states naturally don't make delayed birth certificates easy to get. The easiest way is with a parent's affidavits and other records from childhood. She had next to nothing to go on. So Lisa Pennington revealed herself to be a liar...if she thought a delayed certificate was needed, she knew nothing had actually been filed at birth.

[TranquilMind]

Also, both of her parents said they would help publically but privately did not. When she finally got her birth certificate, the evidence considered by the judge had no signed statement from her parents. Also, in a transcribed but deleted you tube video, Lisa Pennington said a birth certificate had been filed but then said that a delayed birth certificate was a great option for people like Alecia. A delayed birth certificate is only ever necessary if one wasn't filed at birth. Had the parents and/or midwife filed the birth certificate, all she would have needed to do was request a copy. Not having a birth certificate doesn't mean not having a copy. It means the state doesn't have any record of the birth. Because of the potential for ID and immigration fraud or assuming a new identify to avoid legal, tax or debt obligations, the states naturally don't make delayed birth certificates easy to get. The easiest way is with a parent's affidavits and other records from childhood. She had next to nothing to go on. So Lisa Pennington revealed herself to be a liar...if she thought a delayed certificate was needed, she knew nothing had actually been filed at birth.

 

Well, maybe, assuming she had that knowledge, that a delayed birth certificate can only be acquired when no original birth certificate had even been filed. 

 

I figure the truth actually lies somewhere in the middle between the daughter and the parents' stories. 

 

It's only common sense that the parents needed to provide this information to adult children anyway so why would any parent resist that?    Not sure why she had to sneak away with Grandma and Grandpa without telling her parents or even a goodbye, when even Grandpa told her to speak with her parents.  It isn't as if the parents could legally do anything about it once she reached 18.

 

I think we aren't getting the whole story. 

And I'm still amazed she never had to see a doctor even one time for a childhood illness, strep throat, glasses, anything at all. If she had, there would be a medical record. 

[TranquilMind]

Lots of these people don't believe in allopathic medicine. 

 

Ok.  But it's pretty amazing if not one thing ever happened along the way where they needed to see a doctor, an eye doctor, a dentist...anything at all.  I mean, I thought my kids were pretty darn healthy, but you can't exactly skip an antibiotic if you have strep, whether you believe in it or not.

 

[LucyStoner]

Well, maybe, assuming she had that knowledge, that a delayed birth certificate can only be acquired when no original birth certificate had even been filed.

 

I figure the truth actually lies somewhere in the middle between the daughter and the parents' stories.

 

It's only common sense that the parents needed to provide this information to adult children anyway so why would any parent resist that? Not sure why she had to sneak away with Grandma and Grandpa without telling her parents or even a goodbye, when even Grandpa told her to speak with her parents. It isn't as if the parents could legally do anything about it once she reached 18.

 

I think we aren't getting the whole story.

And I'm still amazed she never had to see a doctor even one time for a childhood illness, strep throat, glasses, anything at all. If she had, there would be a medical record.

If you listened to e show you would have heard that her grandparents and her initially asked for their permission, they denied it and she decided to go anyway. The parents tried to get her to stay as she sat in the car to leave. I'm not sure where you are getting the notion she didn't say goodbye. She apparently had to sneak her grandfather's phone number from her parents to even be able to contact them.

 

I don't think you have all the details as they were keeping a 23 year old from getting an outside job and a 20 year old from accessing the Internet. So no, in their world they would not need to do any of the things you take for granted. Alecia Faith is their 4th daughter. They knew what was what about delayed birth certificates.

[LucyStoner]

The Penningtons slammed her while she asked people to not trash her parents. The dad bought the domain name helpmeproveit so she wouldn't be able to use it. They made public assurances of help and then tried to extract compliance from her to actually give her the help.

 

Sometimes a spade is a spade. While the truth is usually in the middle, I get the distinct impression that the Pennington parents have their own version of the truth that is largely divorced from reality and that Alecia and her entire extended family have no reason to be lying about this. She left in 2014, went public after having no success getting her ID in 2015 and got her birth certificate in 9/2015.

 

Lisa's descriptions of her leaving sound like a control freak spiraling after losing a bit of control.

 

Anyone willing to avoid income taxes by treating business and personal income as a homemade church is not someone with a sound moral compass.

Edited September 3, 2016 by LucyStoner

[ktgrok]

Ok.  But it's pretty amazing if not one thing ever happened along the way where they needed to see a doctor, an eye doctor, a dentist...anything at all.  I mean, I thought my kids were pretty darn healthy, but you can't exactly skip an antibiotic if you have strep, whether you believe in it or not.

 

 

You can,it's just not a good idea. They sell essential oils, and I am sure they "treated" medical problems with them. And prayed. Who needs a doctor if you have oils and prayer?  :cursing:

[heartlikealion]

I hate that this is being framed as a "homeschooling" story rather than a "parents who belong to a cult-like movement" story. She could've gone to a private religious school and still had the same issues trying to prove who she is. Private schools are not required to verify their enrolled students' birth certificates, at least not in my state.

 

I had to show ds' birth certificate to enroll him this fall in private school. I don't know if this is a state thing or individual school thing.

 

My parents had trouble getting my own birth cert. when I was born because Mom didn't make it to the hospital in time for delivery and she happens to be Mexican (here legally).

 

[maize]

Ok. But it's pretty amazing if not one thing ever happened along the way where they needed to see a doctor, an eye doctor, a dentist...anything at all. I mean, I thought my kids were pretty darn healthy, but you can't exactly skip an antibiotic if you have strep, whether you believe in it or not.

 

Strep usually resolves just fine without an antibiotic.

 

I have kids who could have gotten by without ever seeing a dr.