Surprise Facebook Soap Opera

[TranquilMind]

Yeah, but people who aren't being honourable right now -- do they deserve no love or friendship? No food or favours? No mental health support for depression? No active listening, basic kindness, no conversations at all that don't return to the topic of my disapproval for her dishonourable conduct?

 

Are you suggesting that I should have excised her from my life as soon as she disclosed her problem relationship? I did think about it, but it didn't seem right at all.

 

Does it matter that he led her on with promises of divorce? Does it matter that very few people are strong enough to disentangle themselves once they are in a relationship past a certain level of bonding? Does it matter that my dishonourable friend is weaker than she has ever been before? Or that she was poorly raised by an intensely controlling mother who still manipulates her?

 

Does it matter that I genuinely friendly-love her?

 

How do people get healthier without good relationships in their lives?

No, I wouldn't do that.  I would still listen, but would feel compelled to say that I also know the wife and that this is just going to hurt everyone involved.  I would tell her that I think she is worth more than just being someone's side woman.  And doesn't she want someone for herself?  He's taken.  He has led her on, and that rarely goes anywhere, statistically. 

 

I don't know,  but I would have to be honest and speak the truth.  That is what a friend does.  I wouldn't shun her or cut her off.   But you have to be authentic too. 

 

[marbel]

Regarding "he led her on with promises of divorce":   (Sorry, having a problem quoting on this stupid laptop.)

 

That does not matter. She had no business getting involved with him.  The response to "I promise I'll get a divorce" is "look me up when it's final; maybe I'll still be around, maybe I won't."  That's it. 

 

"He led me on" is not a good excuse for participating in infidelity.   He's married.  He's not available for a relationship till he's not married anymore.

[bolt.]

Deleted for privacy.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[bolt.]

I've gone from vaguely conflicted to really seriously antsy about this!

[Samm]

Have you or Zarah considered that this cycle of poverty, stress, and deceit is worsening her chronic depression and fibromyalgia?

[bolt.]

Yeah, that's pretty obvious to both Zarah and I. She just keeps hoping it will get better somehow... But it won't. But it's her decision.

 

Please keep talking me though this everyone. It's helping me a lot.

[ktgrok]

If you are friends now with both, yes, I think you need to say something. I'd probably tell the other woman, listen, I just realized that his wife is one of my friends. I can't stay in the middle of this, and she deserves to know. If anything, hey, that will free up the dude to go actually be with his affair partner, right? So win win. 

[bolt.]

Deleted for privacy.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[JustEm]

I think you need to tell the wife, especially now that you have welcomed her into your life by accepting a friend request, I'm assuming you accepted. It is one thing not to want to judge one friends decisions but her decisions are now causing you to deceive someone else who is now connected to your life, even if only minimally.

[JustEm]

Do I owe Yan a warning? I was a friend to him through all of high school. Should I have the, "You tell her or I will." -- conversation?

 

Though he has had ample opportunity to reconnect with me since he knows Zarah and I are reasonably close, and that I know about him and Zarah. Maybe he *knows* that I have history with Xena (from Xena sharing about old friends?) and didn't want it becoming obvious?

 

Yan honestly wasn't a deceitful butt-face when I knew him last. I could easily find a way to justify his affair as something more nuanced than simple butt-face-ery (unloving marriage, deep connections to his high school sweetheart, trying to find a way out without actually taking any risks, hopeful that the status quo will continue to keep drama to a minimum, feeling trapped)... But maybe the deceitful butt-face label is honestly a better description overall.

I've never thought that cheaters deserve to be warned that their lies are going to be exposed. It just gives them time to cover up better and figure out a lie to overturn the info you may have.

[JustEm]

Not every spouse wants this shoved in their face.

This is true but they still deserve the option to know and that can't happen if everyone just keeps their mouth shut.

[TranquilMind]

Do I owe Yan a warning? I was a friend to him through all of high school. Should I have the, "You tell her or I will." -- conversation?

 

Though he has had ample opportunity to reconnect with me since he knows Zarah and I are reasonably close, and that I know about him and Zarah. Maybe he *knows* that I have history with Xena (from Xena sharing about old friends?) and didn't want it becoming obvious?

 

Yan honestly wasn't a deceitful butt-face when I knew him last. I could easily find a way to justify his affair as something more nuanced than simple butt-face-ery (unloving marriage, deep connections to his high school sweetheart, trying to find a way out without actually taking any risks, hopeful that the status quo will continue to keep drama to a minimum, feeling trapped)... But maybe the deceitful butt-face label is honestly a better description overall.

Hey, the most well-meaning people fall every day to the lust of the flesh.  We know this.  Not only the scumbags. 

 

He needs to walk away.  I think it is a good idea to give him a heads-up as to where you have inadvertently landed.  Tell him you care about him, but you can't stay in the middle of this and he needs to do something one way or the other or you will feel compelled to tell his wife.

[Samm]

Yes, their illicit relationship seems determined to destroy as many normal lives, immune systems and good relationships as possible.  Now you're implicated by pushing the accept friend button.  It's all just terrible. It's obvious you will have to do something, please make sure your friend is not in a place where she can self-harm.

 

A question I have is, are you sure this affair is even true?  Could your friend just be really wanting attention in an unhealthy way from you?

[TranquilMind]

Not every spouse wants this shoved in their face.

 

Believe it or not, since we never agree on anything, we agree here. 

 

I think this is fact sensitive.  I'd talk to the husband first and tell him to work it out, because she can't in good conscience remain silent for long.    I wouldn't go straight to telling the wife without giving him a chance to do so. 

 

Someone else might, though, even if this OP does not, so he needs to know that it is out there.   Assuming it is true. Not sure how to verify this but the OP would surely know. 

Edited August 12, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Haiku]

I think yes, you should contact Xena, and honestly I don't think you have any obligation to mention it to Zarah. Whether you tell Zarah or not, once you tell Xena, your friendship with Zarah is over, anyway.

[ktgrok]

Hey, the most well-meaning people fall every day to the lust of the flesh.  We know this.  Not only the scumbags. 

 

He needs to walk away.  I think it is a good idea to give him a heads-up as to where you have inadvertently landed.  Tell him you care about him, but you can't stay in the middle of this and he needs to do something one way or the other or you will feel compelled to tell his wife.

 

but even if he ends it, doesn't his wife deserve to know? If only to check for STDs? Who knows if this is the first time he cheated!

[TranquilMind]

but even if he ends it, doesn't his wife deserve to know? If only to check for STDs? Who knows if this is the first time he cheated!

 

Yes.  But if he ends it, maybe that will open it up for discussion somehow, even if she says something as vague as that she is having arguments with her husband lately?  I don't know!  Tough spot to be in, for sure. 

 

[Haiku]

No, you don't need to warn Yan. He made his bed. Let him lie in it.

 

As far as Xena, be direct. "I am friends with Zarah, and she has told me she is having an affair with Yan. I told you as soon as I found out Yan was married to you."

Edited August 12, 2016 by Haiku

[TranquilMind]

No, you don't need to warn Yan. He made his bed. Let him lie in it.

 

As far as Xena, be direct. "I am friends with Zarah, and she has told me she is having an affair with Yan. I told you as soon as I found out Yan was married to you."

 

That is probably best.   It puts the ball squarely with the wife, as it should be, to follow through. 

 

[Scarlett]

Not every spouse wants this shoved in their face.

Yes I have heard that. (Never met such a woman personally though.) What she does with the info is her business but I would not be party to keeping it from her.

[Scarlett]

Hey, the most well-meaning people fall every day to the lust of the flesh. We know this. Not only the scumbags.

 

He needs to walk away. I think it is a good idea to give him a heads-up as to where you have inadvertently landed. Tell him you care about him, but you can't stay in the middle of this and he needs to do something one way or the other or you will feel compelled to tell his wife.

Here is what more times than not happens when a cheater is given a heads up. They spin a story. The person with the info is painted as crazy to the betrayed spouse. And then the cheaters go further underground with their affair, making it that much harder to prove.

[AMJ]

Have you or Zarah considered that this cycle of poverty, stress, and deceit is worsening her chronic depression and fibromyalgia?

 

 

This, and one thing more:  PTSD.

 

OP called this guy a narcissist at one point, if I recall correctly, and it certainly seems like he is one (possibly a destructive narcissist at that, but I don't know enough to make that call).  Whatever he might or might not be clinically, his affect on her OW friend certainly seems quite abusive.  I think this friend needs to be encouraged to seek help, possibly from the local women's shelter (they have resources for counseling), and to recognize the damage this relationship is doing to herself.

 

And the wife needs the same.  She needs to know what her husband is doing, and she needs to know where to go to get support, advice, counseling, and even help leaving him if need be.  She might not even want to acknowledge that anything is wrong, she might want to keep on believing only the best for quite some time, but if she eventually decides that she needs another perspective she needs to know where to go to get it.

 

From the little that has been said here about the guy it sounds like he is VERY controlling, very manipulative.  These are forms of abuse, forms that often have the targets believing that THEY are at fault, that THEY are lucky he's still around, that THEY should be grateful to HIM.  Prolonged exposure to such treatment DOES lead to a form of PTSD, and the afflicted quite frequently are affected to the point where they can't see how to get out, how to make it stop.  It does no good to judge a person because they have fallen prey to such an abuser, but OP must decide whether she can shoulder the role of friend at this point.

 

OP has a VERY tough decision to make, in fact, she has more than one.  She (OP) must decide whether she has the fortitude and stamina to try -- seriously -- to get this friend to see the trap she (friend) is in and get herself help.  No fault to OP if she cannot handle this -- it will be a very rough ride and will take up a LOT of her time and energy if she chooses to take it on.

 

OP must also determine -- separately from whatever she might decide about OW friend's case -- how much of a friend she can be to the wife friend.  Wife friend will not only need to hear some unpleasant truths (which might induce her to turn against the messenger), she, too, will need to know that there are resources out there should she decide to seek help.  If OP decides to tell wife friend then OP must know that she risks losing the good regard of wife friend, but that also further down the line wife friend might reach back out to OP again if she changes her mind on things.

 

 

OP, I feel for you.  You have some tough decisions to make.  You will need to look within yourself and listen to whatever your soul and your God tell you regarding each of these friendships.  You alone can decide if you can handle being the friend in each of these relationships, and you must decide for yourself what action(s) to take.  Whatever you decide, however, you must commit to for the long haul.  That's not to say you can't break off either friendship later if it turns abusive towards you or starts to consume more of your life than you can afford, but you must have the confidence that you made the best decision you could.  And you must consider yourself and your family when making these decisions -- know that your decision(s) could end up demanding your time and energy for the long haul.

 

So forget any question of judging your friend.  Judge the situation she is in, and be honest with her about this judgement.  If you can offer help and support as she deals with it then do so, but if you can't then be honest.  Tell her you cannot, and tell her why.  Then see where the situation takes you, and know that the ride might get very rocky indeed.

[TranquilMind]

Here is what more times than not happens when a cheater is given a heads up. They spin a story. The person with the info is painted as crazy to the betrayed spouse. And then the cheaters go further underground with their affair, making it that much harder to prove.

 

Possibly.

Sometimes he admits it though.  Sometimes he even wanted to be caught, just to force a decision. 

 

[Scarlett]

Possibly.

Sometimes he admits it though. Sometimes he even wanted to be caught, just to force a decision.

 

Which he us free to do when his wife confronts him,

 

It has been going on 3 years. It is an entrenched affair.

[madteaparty]

Believe it or not, since we never agree on anything, we agree here. 

 

I think this is fact sensitive.  I'd talk to the husband first and tell him to work it out, because she can't in good conscience remain silent for long.    I wouldn't go straight to telling the wife without giving him a chance to do so. 

 

Someone else might, though, even if this OP does not, so he needs to know that it is out there.   Assuming it is true. Not sure how to verify this but the OP would surely know

 

Yes, please don't do this.

Maybe wife knows. Maybe wife sort of knows and wants to maintain some plausible refutability, in order to maintain some self respect and not blow up her life...

[Scarlett]

Yes, please don't do this.

Maybe wife knows. Maybe wife sort of knows and wants to maintain some plausible refutability, in order to maintain some self respect and not blow up her life...

Her life is already blown up, she just isn't being afforded the dignity of actually knowing.

 

I have told this news to two women in my life. One is still with her husband. The other divorced because he just wouldn't stop. Both times I told I had some fall out....different kinds with each affair. But I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

And if I ever found out anyone who even remotely considers themselves my friend knew my husband was having an affair, that person would no longer be my friend. I would consider keeping such info from me the highest form of betrayal.

[madteaparty]

Her life is already blown up, she just isn't being afforded the dignity of actually knowing.

 

I have told this news to two women in my life. One is still with her husband. The other divorced because he just wouldn't stop. Both times I told I had some fall out....different kinds with each affair. But I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

And if I ever found out anyone who even remotely considers themselves my friend knew my husband was having an affair, that person would no longer be my friend. I would consider keeping such info from me the highest form of betrayal.

 

I'm not going to get into this' I've said my piece to the OP.

 

You're speaking about what you want.

In my book, lives aren't blown up until one has to give away a nursling for visitation with her dad and be dragged through the coals in custody battles.

[Scarlett]

I'm not going to get into this' I've said my piece to the OP.

 

You're speaking about what you want.

In my book, lives aren't blown up until one has to give away a nursling for visitation with her dad and be dragged through the coals in custody battles.

Yes. I am well aware of that. It is much of the reason I stayed married to my ex until my son was 9 years old. And no one has to divorce just because they now possess the truth. They can however, go get tested for stds, refrain from Tea, and most of all know she isn't crazy for knowing something is off.

[ktgrok]

I'm not going to get into this' I've said my piece to the OP.

 

You're speaking about what you want.

In my book, lives aren't blown up until one has to give away a nursling for visitation with her dad and be dragged through the coals in custody battles.

 

Sure, that could happen,a though no one says she has to file for divorce. Or, she could not know, and end up infertile or dead due to a sexually transmitted disease. So. risks either way. 

[FaithManor]

Bolt, I would not cut her off. From a Jesus perspective, apart from Pharisees and money changers, his goal was love and reconciliation. But he would also gently speak up too. So I think it is okay to tell her you are rethinking this, and cannot be supportive of the affair. Don't tell her you know the wife. Do tell her what Rosie said, an remind her that the well being of an innocent child is at stake which hurts your heart when you think about it.

 

By all means take groceries to her and be kind. It is okay to tell her you do not want to discuss him. You can't be objective under these circumstances anyway, and it sounds like she needs a professional counselor, services which she may be able to get for free or nearly free through community mental health.

 

There are ways for you to establish a personal boundary without being cruel or unkind to her.

[DesertBlossom]

Not every spouse wants this shoved in their face.

 Perhaps not, but spouses also deserve to know if there's a possibility their partner is bringing home an STD. (not that the OP's friend has one... but anytime we're talking about multiple partners you increase your risk and the wife deserves to know her risk has gone up)

Edited August 12, 2016 by DesertBlossom

[FaithManor]

And the std thing should mot be downplayed. I know a woman who is dying from her husband's affair. He is holding his own, but their teenage kids hate his guts with the fire of a thousand suns because the scuzbag found out he had the disease but never told the wife because he didn't want her to divorce him because child support meant he couldn't afford his lifestyle. So he got treatment early, and left it to grow in her. When she finally realized something was very wrong, it had advanced and morphed.

 

While I am not willing to say there is any responsibility necessarily to Bolt to tell teh woman. It is a pretty invasive thing to do. I would also understand completely if she did it. It is definitely a sticky situation, difficult to determine the best path.

 

I still think that she can help her friend with groceries and getting in to see a therapist. No matter what, being humane is a good thing. However, it woukd also be appropriate to look for a solution to the food crisis. Since she is disabled, she may qualify for Meals on Wheels and other help from social services which would take the pressure off Bolt if the situation is untenable for her ethically.

[zoobie]

Do I owe Yan a warning? I was a friend to him through all of high school. Should I have the, "You tell her or I will." -- conversation?

 

Though he has had ample opportunity to reconnect with me since he knows Zarah and I are reasonably close, and that I know about him and Zarah. Maybe he *knows* that I have history with Xena (from Xena sharing about old friends?) and didn't want it becoming obvious?

 

Yan honestly wasn't a deceitful butt-face when I knew him last. I could easily find a way to justify his affair as something more nuanced than simple butt-face-ery (unloving marriage, deep connections to his high school sweetheart, trying to find a way out without actually taking any risks, hopeful that the status quo will continue to keep drama to a minimum, feeling trapped)... But maybe the deceitful butt-face label is honestly a better description overall.

No. That gives him time to empty bank accounts and screw the wife over more than just biblically.

[sbgrace]

Any thoughts on -- Should I be thinking about contacting Xena and letting all the cats out of the bag? If so, what (if anything) do I say to Zarah about that?

I would definitely tell her. I would not warn him first (nor would I warn your friend who can then give him a heads up).

2 reasons: a. He's very likely to mislead his wife, not come clean. b. He could do some really nasty stuff like clean out accounts first just in case he can't convince her you and/or your friend are crazy or a liar.

 

She deserves to know. You are in the absolute best position to tell her. I'd feel morally obligated at some level to be honest. What she does with the information is her business.  I'm really sorry.

[Seasider]

I understand your desire to be nonjudgmental but... aren't there ANY moral absolutes about ANYTHING anymore? What ever happened to GOOD judgment?

[Guest]

I understand your desire to be nonjudgmental but... aren't there ANY moral absolutes about ANYTHING anymore? What ever happened to GOOD judgment?

But that might offend someone.

 

;)

[Seasider]

But that might offend someone.

 

;)

Sigh, I know. I have learned to stretch my perspective in many ways over the years, but sometimes it's not completely elastic.

 

And to all, really, I'm not trying to be snarky. Some things about the world are changing faster than I can understand these days. Hope I didn't offend you bolt, or anyone else. I just know that I personally couldn't have supported in any way the relationship with a married man, even before the rest of the drama unfolded.

[bolt.]

Deleted for privacy.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[TCB]

Do I owe Yan a warning? I was a friend to him through all of high school. Should I have the, "You tell her or I will." -- conversation?

 

Though he has had ample opportunity to reconnect with me since he knows Zarah and I are reasonably close, and that I know about him and Zarah. Maybe he *knows* that I have history with Xena (from Xena sharing about old friends?) and didn't want it becoming obvious?

 

Yan honestly wasn't a deceitful butt-face when I knew him last. I could easily find a way to justify his affair as something more nuanced than simple butt-face-ery (unloving marriage, deep connections to his high school sweetheart, trying to find a way out without actually taking any risks, hopeful that the status quo will continue to keep drama to a minimum, feeling trapped)... But maybe the deceitful butt-face label is honestly a better description overall.

 

I'm sorry but deceitful butt-face is the only way of explaining an affair. In my opinion there is no excuse for an affair ever. If you are not happy in your marriage then do something to fix it, or have the decency to leave. There is nothing decent about an affair.

[bolt.]

Deleted for privacy.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[Rosie_0801]

What does a cheating, lying, manipulative, entitled, nasty person want with truth? To have it, and not to give it to anyone else.

 

You've just tried to prevent the end of a relationship you don't think should be happening, instead sitting back and letting Yan destroy it. 

 

If you are determined to keep this friendship, stay out of it until it's time to bring ice cream around. That phone call was serious enabling.

 

[Evergreen State Sue]

Any kind of message you left Yan saying Zarah wasn't engineering a plot makes it look like you clearly approve of the affair. What if Xena listens to the voicemail you left?  After all everyone has told you here, you are clearly choosing to side with Zarah and not the wife and innocent child who are being betrayed by a two-timing scum.  If you don't know what Jesus would do, ask your pastor.  Maybe he can help you make things right. 

[Guest]

What she said. Love isn't enabling, and you're moving well into that territory in getting drawn in further. A firm line and praying for her is enough at this point. Really.

[Forget-Me-Not]

She asked you to make a phone call to help patch up her adulterous affair? The same one you've been contemplating blowing the lid on? WHY would you make that phone call??

 

Call the wife and wash your hands of it. Zarah is not your friend. This is not a healthy relationship.

[marbel]

I'm wondering why you feel such a need to protect Zarah.   She is just as much a... whatever it was you called Yan.  She is a full participant in the affair, not a victim!  

 

 

[JustEm]

Wow. You really seem to be enabling their relationship now. You need to back away. You need to unfriend the wife because really that phone call screams that you have no problem with their affair. Someone who think it is immoral and is completing telling the wife shouldn't be helping the OW mend things with her lover. You are in a toxic friendship with a person who is now using you to help mend her immoral affair.

[DawnM]

Yes, input would be good. I have so many possible approaches, and all of them make sense in their own way. More questions than answers.

 

I can't fathom leaving her high and dry -- but, maybe? How do I explain my change of heart? Do I *tell* her I know Xena?

 

Does it really come down to 'break up with him or else I'm outta here!'?

 

How do I not end up souring her on all those judgemental Christisns? Nothing else has shifted her. Won't she just be worse off with him and without me? Who leaves their soul mate for the sake of an old friend from high school? What would Jesus do? Did he only care snout the honourable people of the world?

 

What about counsellor's ethics? I know I'm not a professional -- but if pro's feel that unilateral support is so important that they have to set aside moral judgements, surely that's the best way for me too to help her? Pros -- am I misunderstanding this?

 

 

Ask her if all of her non-Christian friends are fine with it.  I imagine they aren't.   To me, this particular scenario is not about being Christian or non-Christian.  Even non-Christians will find cheating on your spouse abhorrent.

 

Let me tell you a twisted tale of a very close friend of mine, married to a pastor.

 

She cheated on her husband after 20 years of marriage.  The man was cheating on his wife too.  The man was not a Christian, she claimed she was.  They both left their spouses and married each other.  I told her I didn't support any of it and didn't trust this new man.  

 

She twisted it all around and started getting him to go to church and eventually he claimed he too was a Christian.  So, therefore, everything was honky dory and they were now both Christians so it was all good.

 

No, no it wasn't.  They left a trail of tears and messed up lives behind them.  They never repented or tried to apologize to those they harmed.  Their ex-spouses, their children, and everyone involved.

 

Fast Forward 10 years.  These two cheaters are now divorced from each other, and have 3 new children they have brought into the marriage.  She is still completely in shock that all this "just happened."  She doesn't remember the many, many times we all warned her this was a very bad idea, he wasn't trustworthy, and she should work it out with her spouse OR at least separate and have no other man for a long time while she sought counseling.

 

My POINT is that cheating NEVER, NEVER, NEVER leads to a healthy relationship.  It is started in lies and when your foundation is lies and cheating and evil, it won't suddenly become something that even comes close to resembling a "soul mate."

 

I have continued to be her friend, but she knows where I stand and she also knows she can turn to me when she needs me.  You can do this in a way that may not make her not be your friend forever, but you do need to speak the truth in love.  I believe we have to do that.

 

Sorry this was so long.

 

Dawn

[bolt.]

Deleted for privacy.

Edited August 18, 2016 by bolt.

[marbel]

Well, I didn't call to help "patch things up" -- I called because, since I am contemplating being a truth-revealer, it didn't make sense to start out in a footing of lies.

 

If I do tell Xena about the affair, I think it matters whether Yan spends the rest of his life believing that, 'That happened because Zarah (who he is in love with) engineered an underhanded plot to blow up his life.' Or because, 'A bystander who knew the truth felt honestly that Xena deserved to know.' That makes a difference to how Yan will view himself, his past, his relationships, his good judgement, etc. I think whatever happens after this, people should have access to at least one telling of the facts (believe them or not).

 

I really didn't think it was the wrong call, but now I'm second-guessing.

 

Yan is a cheater and a liar.  When this all blows up, he is likely to view himself as a victim - of Zarah and of you.  No amount of telling the truth is going to matter to him - he is not interested in the truth.

[bolt.]

You're probably right.