stealing food...and other things

[GoodGrief]

Quality mental health care can be exceptionally difficult to identify and attain, and a person in a rural area who is overwhelmed with kids and life, and has a pregnancy in progress (I suspect hormones are intensifying the depression symptoms) is going to struggle greatly in leaping through the necessary hoops to find a provider and obtain insurance authorization or arrange other payment(and get childcare so she can attend sessions, etc.)

 

I am wondering if the OP has someone in her life that she can trust to do this research and make arrangements for care. With depression, sometimes you need someone to just take the reins for a while, until healing has occurred and you regain interest in life. Having been that person for my young adult daughter, I know that there is NO WAY she would have been able to make these arrangements when she was in the depth of the illness.

 

OP, if you can identify such a person that can take care of these tasks, that's what I suggest. From what you have shared here, it appears you need therapy and psych help, as a top priority.

[regentrude]

I know this is generally out of line for a stranger to suggest, but I feel your situation is so critical that I am crossing that line . . . May I respectfully suggest that you consider why you are expecting another child when you feel this way? Perhaps you are depressed and medications and/or therapy could help you feel (and be) more in control and more in love with your children and your life? You sound really depressed and lost. Did you feel this way before this pregnancy? If so, please evaluate whether it is in the best interests of your large family to add any more children (after this one!) to your family, as I think it is morally imperative to prioritize proper care, attention, medical/therapy care, etc to the children you already have (and yourself), and obviously you are beyond your limit already. 

 

Stephanie, I think this is crossing a line. 

 

The OP has stated in her other thread.

" Yes I know I'm a terrible mother, and no, WE ARE NOT HAVING ANY MORE KIDS (baby was NOT planned)."

[Lang Syne Boardie]

NM, I'm obviously in the minority regarding the turn of the thread, so I'll remove this distraction. ~TD

Edited July 15, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar

[SparklyUnicorn]

People manage with all kinds of issues.  My mother had a mental illness and wasn't a terrible mother, but certainly there were situations sometimes that were less than perfect.  It is what it is. 

[Haiku]

I don't mean to be harsh, but this situation sounds so out of control and so dangerous (food locked in a gun safe and a five year old figuring out the code) that you have to do something right now. Today. This instant. Get all the food out of the gun safe, and then get rid of the gun safe. Immediately. Take it to the sheriff's office and turn it in if that's your only option. Otherwise I am afraid you will end up with a gun-related tragedy in your home.

 

In the short term, I would say that the kids should just eat what they want to eat and you should let them. Stop buying anything junkie (Dad's just going to have to man up and meet his soda desires some other way) and let the kids have at whatever healthy food you have in the house.

 

Long term, I think that you need counseling/possibly medication and the family needs family therapy. Things are seriously out of whack. Having a trained family therapist look at the situation in a nonjudgmental, impartial way can help you identify ways to make improvements. If your husband is unsupportive, go without him. Your mental health is too important to let anyone stand in your way. 

 

Please, please, please take care of the gun safe situation this instant.

[Lisa R.]

Stephanie, I think this is crossing a line. 

 

The OP has stated in her other thread.

" Yes I know I'm a terrible mother, and no, WE ARE NOT HAVING ANY MORE KIDS (baby was NOT planned)."

 

Regentrude, I agree with almost everything you post. Really. I don't agree with this one. 

 

I think it was brave of Stephanie to speak out here. Maybe it isn't just for the benefit of the OP either. There are times when posters regularly talk about being overwhelmed with their already large family and then in other posts discuss having a desire and even a plan for another baby. It isn't popular but possibly needed for someone to speak up--after someone has already openly discussed child planning--and suggest that maybe it isn't such a good idea. Or, if someone is overwhelmed or depressed and not wanting more children, I think it is also appropriate to suggest, since this is a conversation they've already started, that the poster practice some very reliable BC or even double up on BC to prevent bringing another child into an already stressful situation when more children aren't being planned. 

 

It's not like Stephanie is giving unsolicited advice here. The OP is asking for help. Additionally, as I already said, this advice can help a similarly stressed mother reading the posts. 

[Haiku]

I agree. Randomly going around telling women they have too many kids is not good. But telling a woman who is likely suffering from depression and feels completely overwhelmed with the children she has and who has specifically asked for help that it might be wise to consider taking measures to prevent further pregnancies is, imo, perfectly fine.

 

I was in the opposite situation. I suffered from extreme PPD (including hearing noises and a desire to harm myself) and people would. not. shut. up. about how soon it would all be a distant memory and I'd be thrilled to have another baby. What I needed was for people to tell me it was perfectly fine never to want another baby. I never had another one.

[kbutton]

Could we make a list of possible resources that is generic enough to work for most locales? I saw a crisis hotline and a suggestion for visiting the ED and getting the hospital social worker on board. Can we flesh that out? What are ways to get help vs. bring trouble down on your own head (I have had experiences where I've been accused of lying, and that could have ended in my kids being taken away)?

 

IME, people IRL take one of three paths--none of my business, take of the gloves without offering specifics--just cold, clinical analysis (that may actually be dead wrong), or they identify you as the weakest link and make sure you know it (often by giving your their definition of help that makes you feel worse than manure). So, we don't know what caedmyn has been hearing IRL. Even people who loved me had very wrong misconceptions about why I was stressed and near my breaking point. Add to that people who treated me like a pariah and a danger to society while speaking behind my back and telling me how much they really wanted to help but couldn't. Yeah, it was ugly.

 

Let's give her some ways to evaluate the help that is available to her. I sought counseling. It was one of the most horrific experiences of my life. EIGHT YEARS LATER, I got a good referral. It took me that long to be brave enough to try again, so let's help her figure out how to find a GOOD counselor. My first one accused me of lying because she had no freaking idea what a 2e ASD toddler (undiagnosed) was like. It is absolutely NOT TRUE that anyone who she could see in person is better than online if that IRL person is nasty. I met lots of nasty before I found someone IRL who could help.

 

Let's give her ways to get her husband on board and things to do if he won't come along. Reality is that he might be part of the problem, but not be abusive. He could be ADHD/ODD (it's a family trait in many cases). He could hold it together at work, think he's amazing, and be totally blind to how he makes problems at home. He could look really, really competent in enough ways that she thinks she's the problem when really, the deck is stacked. He could smell like a rose, causing other people to treat her like she must obviously be the problem. (Or he could be God's gift to mankind, but I would guess not if he's the holdup on getting help and won't even put stuff out of harm's way to give his wife some peace as we've heard from other threads.)

 

I would go first, but the reality is that I got LUCKY, and people finally started to believe me. I have almost zero specific options to offer her that haven't been mentioned. I got lucky that counselor number 2 was awesome (I got a referral from people who know 2e kids--what if she doesn't have that kind of network?). 

 

All I have to offer is to suggest that caedmyn find a professional who can differentiate between anxiety and depression and who gets the dynamics of living with a potentially dysfunctional spouse. She shouldn't get the blame if he's blowing all of this off, and she feels like crap. eYs, she needs help even if he's a nice guy because it's beyond just fixing circumstances now, but it shouldn't be loaded help that makes her feel bad. It should be realistic help. IME (and as a pet theory of our family counselor), unresolved or stubborn sensory issues and anxiety are two sides of the same coin. I believe I was treated for depression when the problem was anxiety, and the anxiety was physical. Was I depressed? Absolutely, but I am certain I would not have been depressed if I had understood something about anxiety and had help resolving the physical issues putting me at risk for that (in my case, possibly celiac--I went GF by accident, and it was life-changing, so I haven't eaten gluten just to get tested).

 

So please, please let's put some options on the table in addition to the crisis hotline and going to the ED. If you think she needs to have her kids evaluated, list as many options as you know that could give her the resources to have that done, and list the types of professionals that can do that. Tell her how EI works. Tell her what to say if she calls a county office of whatever. Not everyone has the words to do this. I have a much better idea that these resources exist than I did even two years ago, but I still only sort of know what some of them are, and I'm not sure I'd know how to make them listen.

 

For evaluations, EI has been mentioned. I don't know much about it, just that it's there. A developmental pediatrician, psychologist (education or neuropsych can help), and so can a psychiatrist (though that might be limited in scope to mental issues, and I don't know if they cross over into developmental issues). 

[MomatHWTK]

I think someone up thread mentioned a good point.Iif there are many issues and food is just one- drop that issue for awhile. Survival mode means worrying about life-threatening situations, then legal situations, then annoying situations.

 

General comment not directed specifically at OP-

Guns, access to medications, etc. plus harming self or harming others get attention first.  

Criminal activity, schooling compliance, CPS issues next.

Once you have all those things straightened out, then you work on hang up your towel or don't sneak food. 

 

Identify the most important thing to "fix" and try to get that taken care of, then move onto the next. 

 

 

I just want to add: I HATE parenting books. They all seem to be written by someone who is certain that he or she has all the answers and if doing it a certain way doesn't work, then you are doing to wrong. Very few of them take into consideration individual family dynamics or special needs. Parenting advice by a non-ADHD parent of non-ADHD kids is pretty useless to me. Parenting advice from someone who hasn't dealt with ASD- they might as well be from another planet. That is why a personal counselor was more helpful. She knew my kids' issues and could take that into consideration when helping me. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by MomatHWTK

[caedmyn]

The code on the gun safe has been changed so everyone can stop worrying about that. I hadn't realized the 5 yo was watching me put it in.

[Lecka]

This is for if you enroll any of your kids in public school.

 

My kids are in public school.

 

I really understand about kids bringing homework home!

 

This can be a huge problem!

 

Here are some solutions, but they are things you might need to ask for, maybe.

 

My older son has been able to go to Extended Day Learning. It is free homework help and then time doing a computer program. He is fed a snack and stays after school the days he goes. We don't need it, but bus service is provided here.

 

There may be an after-school program with homework help. You might be able to get a discount. Sometimes kids are supposed to get homework help but don't, but there may be an option where they actually do homework help. Or maybe you can talk to the director about it.

 

You may also talk to your child's teacher about options. You may be able to get accommodations in an IEP.

 

It is a problem but there are things to try or things that you might find out are options. It doesn't just have to be trying to get unfinished homework done every night.

 

I also am aware that there are rumors sometimes among homeschoolers in my town about the school my kids attend.

 

Some things are valid criticisms.

 

Some things are true but presented in a twisted way. They are not a big deal.

 

Then there are things that I think are just not accurate.

 

Edit: I mean if the schoolwork is too hard or not explained well by the teacher, so you are supposed to somehow do the daily class work at home at night. This is a sign of a problem with the teacher, or a sign a child needs more help.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Lecka

[Melissa in Australia]

good thing you found out  before he opened it. :thumbup1:   I have found out some things my kids did only years afterwards - like one ds when around 9 lit a fire on his bed at night - :scared:

[Arcadia]

Tell her how EI works. Tell her what to say if she calls a county office of whatever.

For Montana, EI (Part C) is for newborn to 3. Then Part B takes over from 3 to 21 years old. The good thing is EI is free and not dependent on insurance. The bad thing is the EI quality of service varies.

 

"To make a referral:

1. Contact your local school district,

2. Discuss the reasons for suspecting that your child has a disability,

3. Summarize the supports and services your child received through early intervention services and their results and outcomes,

4. Fill out the district's referral form describing the child’s learning problems or developmental delays, and

5. Give your consent in writing so that your child can be tested for special education."

 

"After members of the school staff share the evaluation results with you, you can decide if the results match your view of your child. If you do not think the evaluation or assessment results are correct, you can disagree with the CST results and request an independent educational evaluation by a qualified person outside of the school district.

The school district must pay for the independent educational evaluation done by a quali ed examiner unless the district disagrees about the need for another evaluation. If the district disagrees with you, then the district can ask for a due process hearing and maintain that its evaluation was appropriate and that it should not have to pay for the independent educational evaluation."

 

Page 15-17 of http://www.pluk.org/Pubs/PLUK_First_Steps_04_2008.pdf

[LucyStoner]

One possible thing to say when calling a crisis line for resources:

 

"My family is having significant problems with parenting and mental health right now. Continuing on the way things are right now is not an option. We are in urgent need of assistance figuring out how to get the help we need as quickly as possible. (Give several specific examples of parental depression and challenging child behaviors, make it clear this is ongoing and a daily situation). I need a social worker or otherwise skilled person to help me make a crisis plan and help me access any state or non-profit services in (her part of) Montana for families and kids with these sorts of challenges. I'm willing to get help but I absolutely do not know where to turn next or how to help my sons."

 

They will generally help you make an immediate 24 hour crisis plan on the phone. Hopefully they can have a social worker (here these aren't CPS workers- they really are trying to help the family stay together more than anything else unless there's a clear, immediate danger) visit and make a longer term plan. We had a county social worker visit, at our request, following the second of two ER visits as I was afraid that one child was going to hurt the other and that both of them needed help and that my husband and I needed help as well.

 

I am not in her home and honestly don't know if an ER visit would be the route to take. I mentioned it because for a long time I didn't know it was an option until the night it was suggested we go the first time. And then I was like "oh, yeah. The ER. It's that serious right now." If it is an option where she is, it might be for her and not for the kids. Or it could be for one child who is having the most acute behaviors at that moment. I had a child who was raging without end (what helped before was no longer helping) when nothing else was open which is why we ended up at the ER, at the pediatrician's suggestion, and he met us there. It took two adults to get him into the car and we barely managed it. OTOH, going in because a child is disobeying or stealing might not trigger much help and the best first step medical help for depression is usually from a doctor who knows you and not an ER nurse who does not.

 

Basically in the situations I have needed to demand immediate interventions, I had to learn to be brutally honest and not minimize anything. I also had to learn not to move on from one source without finding the next. Two questions I recall asking more than once of a HCP or the social worker was "what would you tell a family member to do/go in this situation?" and "I can't (hang up/leave) without my next step. Do you know anywhere else I should (contact/go)?"

 

I truly wish we had stronger and fully funded programs nationwide for pediatric and adult mental and behavioral health. It's hard to say "get help" knowing how difficult it can be but it's not like one can say "don't get help" either. This may sound supremely trite, but Wall e was a new movie when the shit first was hitting the fan here in a serious way (in fact our son continuously acting like he WAS wall e was part of the problem) and I just latched on to the idea that merely surviving was not the ultimate goal. It had to get better, no matter how embarrassing or mortifying it was to discuss it honestly and openly. I recall telling the ER crisis person that that day was worse and that most days were fine. Then I described those "fine days" and she was like "those days are not fine. If that's what you are handling day in and day out, no wonder you are at the end of your rope." Parents of special needs kids can get a very warped idea of what they "should" be able to handle.

Edited July 16, 2016 by LucyStoner

[kwg]

The code on the gun safe has been changed so everyone can stop worrying about that. I hadn't realized the 5 yo was watching me put it in.

 

 

  :grouphug:  I am sorry things are so tough. I have been there.  :grouphug:

 

 

Did you decide to do the snack announcement thing or something else? How is it going?  

 

fwiw, you do not sound like a crappy mom. It does sound like there is a lot of crap going on. Who wouldn't be overwhelmed  :crying: ? Completely understandable from this vantage point.

 

 

If I may ask.........you have read a lot it sounds like...so..... what is preventing the next level of intervention from happening?  I am just not sure if you need resource help or... And do not want to make guesses. I am trying not to do that lately  :lol:

 

I see a lot of people here suggesting therapy and I would agree when I was at my breaking point, therapy was a helpful thing.  Is that an option for you? 

[kbutton]

Thank you, ladies. I know I'm not the OP, but this is the kind of thing that would've helped so many years ago. Keep it coming!

[StephanieZ]

Stephanie, I think this is crossing a line. 

 

The OP has stated in her other thread.

" Yes I know I'm a terrible mother, and no, WE ARE NOT HAVING ANY MORE KIDS (baby was NOT planned)."

 

I am glad to read that.

 

Yes, I knew I was crossing a line, but I see so many danger signs that I decided to cross it. If I saw a woman beating her child in her own car, I'd step in, open the door, and stick my nose in. What the OP is writing terrifies me, and if I knew where she was and who she was in real life, I'd call CPS, her mother, her pastor, her husband, her friends, and I'd show up on her door step with a lunch and water guns for the kids . . .

 

I don't know those things, and I can't intervene in person.

 

She reached out here, and, FWIW, I am perfectly OK with all y'all thinking I'm a busy body know-it-all. That's cool. If I make any difference to instigate action on the OP's part, then I am happy with that.

 

Honestly, I think she's at risk of losing her family, and her kids are at grave risk of harm. She needs to act right now. Period. End stop. She must change this situation, and if CPS gets involved, she might well lose her kids. If anyone here thinks it's an OK idea for her to have additional kids after the ones she already has on the way and in her home, then I hope you get her address and buy your plane ticket and go take care of her and her family for the next few years, because she needs HELP, not more helpless children. 

 

I feel terrible for OP. She's depressed and overwhelmed and has way too much on her plate. Obviously she's not thinking clearly, and obviously she has not yet used effective birth control (as in the linked thread she already said this pregnancy was not planned and she's not planning more kids), and I have known WAY too many women who had more kids "oops" and those "oops"es seem to happen often when one isn't thinking clearly and getting truly effective birth control. Effective birth control must be on her top priority list, or her risk to her family will just be graver and graver. 

 

I wish I could help OP in person. I hope she finds people IRL who are willing and able to help. 

[Ausmumof3]

Hugs.. I don't think you are a crappy mum at all I think you sound kinda overwhelmed which is totally understandable given that you have a tribe of kids, some higher level needs, are pregnant. Just being pregnant sends me into overwhelm mode!

 

I've seen your other posts about education stuff in the past and that you take it all pretty seriously.

 

Aside from therapy options, I want to share a couple of things that helped when I was feeling pretty overwhelmed.

 

One was to drop all expectations except to be in the same place as the kids. If they were outside I was there. I might do some sweeping or whatever where they were. The house got pretty bad, but everyone survived.

 

The other one which I think was most important was to accept any and all offers of help. If someone said, would you like me to clean or take the kids for a bit I always said yes. Even if I was actually ok at that point and didn't need the help because I knew that if I pushed through I might need it later when it wasn't available. I figured that a) I have already helped others and b) when I'm through this stage, I will help again but for this time right now I have to let go of pride and just accept that for a little while I'm going to be a taker not a giver.

 

Now I don't know what help or support you have available but if there's anything please take what's going!

 

I'm guessing that once you are through the pregnant and newborn stage things are going to be easier and better for you all/

[Kathryn]

This may sound supremely trite, but Wall e was a new movie when the shit first was hitting the fan here in a serious way (in fact our son continuously acting like he WAS wall e was part of the problem) and I just latched on to the idea that merely surviving was not the ultimate goal. It had to get better, no matter how embarrassing or mortifying it was to discuss it honestly and openly.

Off topic, but DS and Wall-E mimicry was part of what pushed me to pursue his autism diagnosis! He identified so much with that damn robot.

 

OP, I'm so sorry for how you're feeling and what you're going through. I have two with special needs, a toddler, and an extremely combative relationship with DH that makes consistent parenting impossible, not to mention any possibility of therapy. I understand the frustration, the intense desire for just one of those damned parenting books to contain the answers, the need to reach out for some kind of connection. I urge you to get whatever help you can. And please take the advice here in the light it is intended. Nobody has walked in your shoes, but I'm sure we all want the best for you and your children. Hugs!

[LucyStoner]

Off topic, but DS and Wall-E mimicry was part of what pushed me to pursue his autism diagnosis! He identified so much with that damn robot.

 

 

That's such a coincidence for them to have the same obsession/pattern. He was also dx not long after that with PDD-NOS and then later (long wait for full eval), ASD. That was what pushed us (and his doctor) over the edge in thinking this was more than "quirky".

 

He scared the crap out of me because he'd cube up like a wall e unit (skinny and flexible enough to actually do a pretty spot on cube) and then hide in spaces too small to be immediately obvious that a full size 6-7 year old could be inside whatever he's crawled in to. For long periods of time and not always register it when he heard people looking for him. We'd jump out of our skins if we lost sight of him out of the house in the height of the wall e stage. I don't wish that feeling of needing to not blink too long on anyone. It's crazy making.

Edited July 16, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Susan Wise Bauer]

Folks,

 

Some good advice has been given in this thread, but it seems now to be moving in a direction that makes me nervous about the amount of personal detail being posted on this (open) public forum. I'll leave it up, but please PM the OP with any further suggestions.

 

SWB