The positive side of starting at community college...

[DoraBora]

I wonder whether anyone has an idea to make attending community college for the first year more appealing.

 

It has been our plan for the last four or five years for each of our two children to attend community college for at least one year before transferring to university.  We told both of them that we will support them in seeking scholarship money to pay for freshman year at a four year school if they wanted to go away for four years.  I think this plan makes sense -- in fact there are times when I look at current tuition/room and board rates and wish that we had offered only two years at university.   :huh:

 

Anyway, my dd, who will be a senior next year, has begun to express her lack of contentment with this plan.  Our church's Senior Recognition Sunday likely exacerbated her worry. She sees "everyone" going away to school straight out of high school, and she feels left out. 

 

I hate this for her because I know she is young and fitting in can seem very important.

 

Have any of you found a way to put a positive spin on such a plan?  Currently, the only thing I can think of at this moment is that it will be a huge money saver... which is understandably not terribly important to a seventeen year old.

 

Thank you.

 

Dora

 

[hornblower]

One way to make it more appealing would be to give them the extra money saved to go on a trip abroad. 

My kids are both very pragmatic and saving money & being able to live at home is actually hugely important to them both. There's definitely a cultural difference though because I know in the US it's more a big thing to do the whole 'going away' to college thing. It's just not here, unless you live in a remote town or really don't like your parents or really have a unique major that can't even be started at a closer school... 

But the thing is, even in your country it's not rare to do it the CC route. 

"Among all students who completed a degree at a four-year college in 2013–14, 46 percent had enrolled at a two-year college in the previous 10 years. Of those, more than one fifth were enrolled for only one term, but 47 percent had been enrolled for five or more terms (National Student Clearinghouse Research Center, 2015)."   http://ccrc.tc.columbia.edu/Community-College-FAQs.html

I started a thread about this topic a while back because I wasn't really clear on how things worked in the US.  It might help your family to read through some of the comments because I think it did reveal a bunch of info about this. 
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/600912-community-college/

[Sunshine State Sue]

Two things I have noticed:  (1) Smaller class size compared to the state unis.  (2) Passionate and available instructors (checking ratemyprofessor and getting IRL recommendations) who have the ability to give more individual attention to the student.

[hillfarm]

My dd considered cc as training on how to do well in college. She was able to take college level courses and deal with professors and other things but still had the safety net of living at home and being able to discuss things with dh and me. She also said that dozens of people she met at her recent 4 yr college orientation commented on how smart she had been to attend cc first. Most who commented were upperclassmen and professors. Administrators, not so much. ;)

 

Honestly, one of the big things she did was to take some of the harder classes that are not in her major area but are general requirements. She had heard that they were really tough at the 4 yr and not quite as difficult at the cc. Whether this is a myth or not, many people have congratulated her on how smart it was to do it that way.

 

Regarding your dd, you might make a big deal of coming up with some new House Rules, now that she is a college student (minor changes that are age and activity appropriate), possibly even change her room to be a bit more like a dorm room (or try things like a new desk lamp or laundry bag to see what she will prefer at the 4 yr) and be sure you always introduce her as "my daughter who is in college". If you are religious, consider allowing her to attend a different worship service than you do, one with some of her cc friends. Also have her check around for perks. In our area, many local businesses offer discounts to students from the local cc. My dd loved pulling up at the local Taco Bell and flashing her cc id for a discount. Encourage her to join clubs at the cc, to make new friends there and to do the long study sessions at the local all-night diner. 

 

I think the main thing is to help her feel that she is entering a new phase of her life, not just prolonging the previous one. Take this time to chat about the deeper things, what she wants to be "when she grows up", what she thinks about local and world events, perhaps help her create and learn how to execute her own nutritional plan. I think all those things really helped dd feel that she had transitioned to college, even though she did the cc as dual enrollment and was only 15 when she started. At the beginning, she interacted more with her high school friends. By the end, she was much more plugged into the culture of the cc and only rarely spent time with the high school crowd.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's not as romantic and fun for sure, but it is a heck of a lot less expensive which is something she won't appreciate now.

 

 

[MarkT]

If the primary reason for the CC is economic then I would engage them in a fairly deep discussion of college costs and long term student debt. Site some of the many examples previously presented on this forum.

[Liza Q]

If the primary reason for the CC is economic then I would engage them in a fairly deep discussion of college costs and long term student debt. Site some of the many examples previously presented on this forum.

 

Absolutely. Although only one of my girls started at CC, they both stayed home through college and are so grateful not to have the debt and stress that many of their friends have.

 

The daughter who did start at CC had more shame about appearing "dumb" than about saving money/staying home. By the time she transferred to a 4yr school (still local) she started to say that more people should consider it as it was such a positive experience for her. Most of her classmates were serious about being in school - lots of recent immigrants, kids like her who were being frugal, older students who were working full-time and fitting in classes as they could - and she found it to be a good atmosphere. She struggled in math and found so much support from the professors and was able to get through her classes with less difficulty than we expected. She was at the top of her classes in English and Social Sciences which made it easier for her to work many hours (and travel to Europe twice)  while still getting As.

[J-rap]

None of my kids could attend a community college because we have none near us.  Four of them have now been to or are in college, all are good students, and every one of them would have made the choice (in hind site and if it were possible -- which it wasn't) to live at home and go to a community college for the first two years.  It just wasn't an option for them.  

 

They're very practical, and did not feel that the price tag on getting generals done at a private two-year college was worth the cost.  Also, they're not into a lot of typical college stuff.  

 

So, there's that.  But as far as trying to put a positive spin on it ahead of time.  I liked what someone else said, that maybe living at home now and going to a community college would make a semester abroad possible in the future.

 

 

[daijobu]

The NY Times site is full of articles about students coping with student loan debt.  Assign one per day for your student to read, lol.  

[goldberry]

I have been going over numbers with DD for the past year.  It has been very eye-opening to her the differences in price.

 

CC ($5-6000) - versus the local state college without R&B ($10,000) - versus the very nice state college with R&B ($28,000)   She is a rising senior, but we started talking about these numbers far beforehand.  I think that helps honestly. If you haven't done that before,  I would still sit down with her and show her the actual numbers.

[JanetC]

Teenagers want choice, to spread their wings and make their own decisions. If you chose her community college and her university for her four or five years ago, that's probably an issue.

 

1. Is there only one community college in your area? We live in a larger city with multiple CC campuses, each with slightly different "vibes" and program offerings. Can she tour the different CC's looking for the one she wants?

 

2. Is there only one state campus that is acceptable to you? If not, can you tour the different state campuses and let her pick her own school. Do you have schools that are affordable within your state higher education compact?

 

Have you researched how both need-based and merit-based aid work and determined if your plan from years ago is still the best one financially? Merit aid is not typically offered to transfer students, but varies considerably by state university systems. University of Alabama has all kinds of full-tuition and half-tuition scholarships for certain GPA and test score combinations, for example. On the other end of the merit aid spectrum, DD qualified for a $900 non-renewable freshman merit grant at her state school. So, the merit aid difference could be significant or just a drop in the bucket.

 

3.If you are willing to give her the 3 years at state plus one year at CC as a budget, she might run net price calculators at other (private) schools to see if anything else comes close? The prices she gets will be centered around, but higher or lower than, your EFC, which you can get from the college board EFC estimator. I just did a college counseling session with a moderate income friend who is getting NPC's to come out 10K below her EFC, probably due to her son's near-perfect ACT score.

[daijobu]

You can also just let her vent and mourn what she perceives to be a missed opportunity enjoyed by other students.  Hear her out, sympathize, tell her you wish it could be different, and try to be empathetic.  Reflect her frustrations back to her so she knows that you understand.  "I know it must be hard to see your friends going to straight to a 4 year college, while you have to wait another year.  That's pretty tough."  

 

Praise her and thank her whenever she attempts to see the bright side.  Buy her some nice stuff using the money she saved by not attending a more expensive school.  Sometimes our kids just want to be heard.  

[SamanthaCarter]

I started out in community college. It is SOOO easy to get recognition from your professors. They notice when you are putting forth effort, they are available, and they are easily impressed. :) Good confidence booster and good way to learn how to interact with professors :) This went a long way for me when I transferred to a big state university (where, as a TA, I observed just how huge and impersonal those 200+ student freshman classes are. Yikes!). 

Edited June 25, 2016 by SamanthaCarter

[Pegasus]

This repeats a bit of what previous posters had stated but here's the advantages I see for attending CC first.  DD19 finished her freshman year at our local CC, after having dual enrolled there for a couple of years, and has one more semester at the CC before transferring to a state U:

 

1. Smaller classes than a state U.  I don't think she's had a single class with more than 30 students. It is common for large state U's to have hundreds of students in a single lecture hall for freshman/sophomore level courses.

 

2. Because of the above, it is much easier for students at CC to get to know and interact with their instructors.  It is also less intimidating for a more introverted student to speak up and participate in class discussions in a small classroom than a large lecture hall.

 

3. The vast majority of instructors at the CC are there because they want to teach.  At a state U, there are also professors who would rather be doing research as well as grad students who are only teaching for the graduate stipend.

 

4. The mix of students can be very different at a  CC.  The entering freshman class at a state U is largely young single students aged 17 to 19.  At the CC, DD is in courses with students well into their 20's and 30's, working part-time or full-time, married and/or with children.  Yes, there are still students who are only there because they don't know what else to do with their time/life, but in general, I think the larger diversity of life-stages and experiences is very positive. 

 

5. By the time DD transfers to the state U, she will be in junior level classes. These courses will be smaller than the freshman/sophomore classes and will have more mature and dedicated students (those who aren't won't make it that far).

 

6. Cost. This can not be over emphasized.  Yes, if a student is able to swing large merit scholarships at a state U, it may be advantageous financially to go straight to the university.  It is true that there are fewer scholarships for transfer students. However, the cost savings of tuition and room/board for the first two years at a cc would be hard to beat. 

 

Good luck to you and your students as you navigate the transition to college.  CC was so clearly the right choice for DD that we didn't have to struggle with the decision.  She was simply not ready on an emotional level to leave home yet.  Besides that, the Tennessee Promise (free tuition at the CC) was started just in time for her to take advantage of it.  She has made huge strides just in the last year that I'm confident she will continue to thrive once she transfers.

[chiguirre]

Anyway, my dd, who will be a senior next year, has begun to express her lack of contentment with this plan.  Our church's Senior Recognition Sunday likely exacerbated her worry. She sees "everyone" going away to school straight out of high school, and she feels left out. 

 

 

Could she say that she's starting at XXXX CC with plans to transfer to XXXX State U? Most CCs have course plans for prospective transfers for many majors and universities. You should investigate what she needs to take and the GPA she'll need to make to transfer.

[katilac]

I don't have any advice about making CC more appealing, but I wanted to make sure you know that she should be looking into scholarships and such now, if she is a senior next year. Scholarship priority deadlines can be very early. 

 

Has she taken the ACT? If not, have her take a practice one now, and she can get a rough idea of whether scholarships of some kind are likely. 

[Guest2]

I don't know if it would make it more appealing, but many cc have honors schools, programs, and scholarship. You could check into whether her cc has Phi Theta Kappa. At my daughter's school they have monthly meetings re: scholarship opportunites to four year schools. My daughter is hasn't made it to a meeting yet, but it looks like pretty serious goal oriented kids.

The four year school my DD is planning on transferring to has a pretty sweet two year Phi Theta Kappa scholarships with amounts ranging from $1500 to $10,000 per year. Her community college often has scholarships that go unclaimed every year as well. Your DD could get her first year and half much cheaper that she thinks. My thought was that if you said one year at Cc, that could include two summers ( more classes for less money:) . Ironically,my DS who went the four year route out of high school,was Nm commended, got zero scholarship money. His sister never took the SAT and may come in with a scholarship and at least sophmore status.

 

Your DD could have some great resume material here as well as great recs from professors that actually know her .

Edited June 27, 2016 by Silver Brook

[Sunshine State Sue]

This just reminded me of a somewhat similar situation.

 

When ds was 6, I bought a new 2001 Honda Accord.  Eventually, I realized that it would be the perfect car for a 16yo driver 10 years later.  I let ds know throughout the years that the car would be his when he turned 16.  He liked the idea...until he was a tween and his best buddy taught him about Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

 

When ds eventually expressed displeasure with the Accord idea, dh and I just laughed and said if he didn't like it and didn't want it, he could buy whatever kind of car he liked and wanted.  He eventually came around.  A free car is a good car.  We had a saying growing up in my family.  Beggars can't be choosers.

 

This may sound unfeeling towards your dd, but financial reality is what it is.

[G5052]

Late here, but this is exactly where we were a year ago when my oldest graduated. Mine was top-notch academically and got into multiple "name brand" schools including a "Public Ivy." We were very disappointed with the merit aid, and unfortunately he would have had to borrow much more than we had hoped even with in-state tuition. The local pressure was ugly at times.

 

But the more we looked at what he wanted for the first year of college and our finances, the better the local community college looked. He got one of their best merit scholarships. He explored several areas his first year and picked a major. And most importantly, he got to know his professors and gained a huge amount of confidence. He was inducted into PTK in May and will be eligible for scholarships. He's on track to transfer to a top-rated 4-year in 2017-2018.

 

In contrast, he has several friends his age who already have loan balances in the tens of thousands, who struggled through classes of 100+, and who still aren't sure of their major.

 

For us there have been no negatives other than some flack from those who think we're not providing what we should.

 

[DebbS]

I hate to sound mean, but if your daughter prioritizes 'fitting in' as more important than the economic hardship it would create for her family and/or herself, then she isn't yet mature enough to leave home. That would definitely weigh the decision towards attending community college or not attending at all, in my book. If she doesn't want to go to community college for a year, maybe a gap year in the work world to earn money towards college would be in order. My son did that. He didn't like but it was an extremely valuable experience for him. He learned what the cost of college is in terms of what people earn from work  and that has caused him to be more frugal and more focused on his studies.

[justasque]

 

 

I think, to be honest, it is too early in the process for either of you to be limiting your plans to one school, one path.  Both you and your dd need to have a broad understanding of the choices available to her, and the pros and cons of each.  Only then can the two of you, together, work towards a decision.  With that in mind, I'd tour the cc - both of you - and do the math to figure out how much the cc is likely to cost, taking into account all the incidentals, and looking at the full four (five?) years she'll be in school.  Then do the same for some four-year schools, both public and private.  The more schools you see, the more you will see the pros and cons of each, and the more you can get a sense of "good fit" personally, academically, and financially.

Make sure she understands that some (or all) of the schools you look at will turn out to be out of reach financially or not great choices for other reasons - you are just window shopping.  Explain, frequently, that the cc is the most likely choice, but you want it to be an informed choice for both of you.

 

Go on Open House days if at all possible, as you get more exposure to faculty, representatives of various support services, and the students themselves.  Take a close look - what would her major be?  What classes would she have to take?  What optional classes would be available?  Will she finish in four years?  What kinds of extracurriculars are available?  Sports, clubs, etc., including activities she might do if she stays home.  What is the culture of the school?  What do the students do for fun?  What can she expect in terms of employment, salary, etc., at graduation?  What financial aid is available for freshmen, and what is she likely to qualify for?  How is that compared to if she transfers in?

 

Then narrow down your list of schools to apply to -  again emphasizing that you wont' know if they are affordable until the financial aid offers come in.

 

Your dd will get to go through the same process as her peers - touring schools, applying to them, and making a decision (with your guidance).  She will get to participate in all of the conversations about the process, and maybe even visit some schools with friends.  She is likely to find that many of the students who are now talking about going to expensive private four-year schools will, by spring, change their mind and end up at the local state uni (or even the cc).  

 

You may find that one of the four-year schools actually turns out to be a viable option financially and a good fit academically and socially.  Or you may find yourselves really appreciating what the cc has to offer (for many of the reasons previous posters have listed), and happy and comfortable with the choice, knowing that it wasn't just the "default" but a thoughtfully-taken decision on both your parts.    The more buy-in your daughter has in the process of choosing a school, the more invested she will be in her success once there.

 

Now, of course, there is a risk that she will fall in love with an unaffordable school (and you'll need to be very clear and specific about the money as you go through senior year), but there's also a risk she will miss out on a school that would have been a good fit and would have given generous scholarships.  You just don't know until you go through the process.

Edited July 2, 2016 by justasque

[MinivanMom]

 

I hate to sound mean, but if your daughter prioritizes 'fitting in' as more important than the economic hardship it would create for her family and/or herself, then she isn't yet mature enough to leave home. That would definitely weigh the decision towards attending community college or not attending at all, in my book. If she doesn't want to go to community college for a year, maybe a gap year in the work world to earn money towards college would be in order. My son did that. He didn't like but it was an extremely valuable experience for him. He learned what the cost of college is in terms of what people earn from work  and that has caused him to be more frugal and more focused on his studies.

 

 

This is really harsh. The op didn't even say that; she said that her daughter had "begun to express her lack of contentment with this plan". In reference to the plan op made 5 years ago for dd to attend a specific community college and then transfer to a specific university. The op speculated that her daughter felt "left out" with peers headed to university, but it didn't sound to me like dd had actually said anything of the sort.

 

I think it's natural for kids around 17-18 to want to make their own decisions, get out on their own, and be independent. That doesn't mean op's plan isn't a good one; it may be the one that's necessary for them financially. But neither is there any reason to assign selfish, negative motivations to the daughter. Of course she wants to go away to university like her friends. Of course it's disappointing when financial realities limit our choices. That doesn't mean that she's selfish or lacking in maturity. She's just disappointed.

 

OP, you have gotten lots of good advice from those who have been there. I will just second the suggestion to not discount the possibility of freshman scholarships if your daughter has good test scores. It's always worth looking into.

[DebbS]

This is really harsh. The op didn't even say that; she said that her daughter had "begun to express her lack of contentment with this plan".

 

As parents we need to look beyond what our children desire and see what it is they actually need to grow into successful, responsible adults.The part of the post that I responded to is this:

 

"Currently, the only thing I can think of at this moment is that it will be a huge money saver... which is understandably not terribly important to a seventeen year old."

 

I have to ask, why is something being a huge money saver for her parents understandable not important to a 17 year old?  Now, I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that it has something to do with the level of maturity and/or experience. Note that I did not accuse the daughter of selfishness nor other negative motivations as you concluded.

 

Out of love for my children, I would keep them home another year(s) if they demonstrated a lack of maturity or experience in important areas of life that I felt were necessary to their success and happiness as they move into full adulthood. I would do this in order to provide them with experiences that would help them to grow in the area where they need growth. You can see in my comments that I used my own son as an example.

 

So many kids leave home for college before they are ready, just because that's what you do in our society immediately after high school. Many either make really bad decisions to 'fit in' or they don't understand the cost/value of college and blow the opportunity by not being serious students.

 

I have also experienced my heart going out to my children because of the emotional pain they feel from not getting what they want. But, out of love, my reason has to prevail in order to provide for them what they really need. If that sounds harsh, so be it.

 

DoraBora knows her own daughter and can decide which suggestions to consider and which to write off. If my two cents don't apply, I'm sure she is able to get past my post and move on to the next.

Edited July 3, 2016 by DebbS

[Anacharsis]

It can be a chance to meet people who come from different lifestyles and cultures. Someone can meet people at a community college that  they probably wouldn't meet at their high school or a 4-year college.

 

For instance, many community colleges have strong ESL programs; taking an ESL course can introduce a person to recent immigrants who maybe one wouldn't have talked to otherwise.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Anacharsis

[-M-]

I wonder whether anyone has an idea to make attending community college for the first year more appealing.

 

Crunching the numbers. As high school seniors, my daughters both applied to four-year colleges and received generous merit scholarship offers from each school to which they applied. When they ran the numbers, however (and last year, when they reviewed transfer evaluations), the community college saved them enough money to make it more than worth their while.

 

Enjoying "academic celebrity." Both of my daughters were well regarded by instructors and peers -- not just for their grades but for their ability to synthesize the material and to add to the course lectures with insights from their previous studies and experiences. They were also appreciated for their generosity in helping other students to make important and necessary connections. The girls were inducted into honor societies, awarded merit scholarships, given paid tutoring work, and provided with excellent recommendations.

 

I hate this for her because I know she is young and fitting in can seem very important.

 

A poster downthread is taking some heat for her "mean" response, but I think her reply is pragmatic and well-reasoned. While fitting in can seem important to teens, we can only indulge so much. When fitting in means a speedsuit or pierced earrings or or a later curfew or even a certain type of phone, there is room to renegotiate or relent. But on a such a large investment as college tuition, one would hope the student recognizes that there are limits. If your daughter has been part of the planning and discussion surrounding college expense and if there is no room for your family to contribute more than X, then she must either identify alternative funding (e.g., a merit scholarship) or she must (to be blunt) get over herself.

 

Have any of you found a way to put a positive spin on such a plan?  Currently, the only thing I can think of at this moment is that it will be a huge money saver... which is understandably not terribly important to a seventeen year old.

 

Thank you.

 

Dora

"Positive spin" indicates that there is a negative one. But if your local college has good programs and clear transfer guides and if your student is pursuing a program that will not suffer from a 2+2 plan, though, then the "huge money saver" should be important to her, even if she is a seventeen-year-old.

 

Have you read Debt-Free U (Zac Bissonnette; 2010)? My approach to selecting and paying for college is more Bissonnette than Loren Pope (Colleges That Change Lives; 2006), and I particularly like this passage from Chapter 6:

 

I fully understand that societal expectations and peer pressure -- for parents and students -- often trump the more calculated approaches to investing in college. But [...] the thing that you have to keep in mind is this: the Joneses are broke. Getting into a college-spending arms race with people who are spending money that they don't have is a dangerous game and, however alluring it might be, it's one that you absolutely must avoid, for your own future and your child's. When discussing your decision to send your kids to a community college with friends, feel free to make it clear to them that it was a choice your family made because it was the best option, not because it was the only option. If you want to make them feel stupid, use phrases like, "We looked at the data and the latest research, and we really concluded that this was the best investment decision."

 

Wishing you and your family peace as you make these important decisions.

[G5052]

 

"Positive spin" indicates that there is a negative one. But if your local college has good programs and clear transfer guides and if your student is pursuing a program that will not suffer from a 2+2 plan, though, then the "huge money saver" should be important to her, even if she is a seventeen-year-old.

 

Have you read Debt-Free U (Zac Bissonnette; 2010)? My approach to selecting and paying for college is more Bissonnette than Loren Pope (Colleges That Change Lives; 2006), and I particularly like this passage from Chapter 6:

 

I fully understand that societal expectations and peer pressure -- for parents and students -- often trump the more calculated approaches to investing in college. But [...] the thing that you have to keep in mind is this: the Joneses are broke. Getting into a college-spending arms race with people who are spending money that they don't have is a dangerous game and, however alluring it might be, it's one that you absolutely must avoid, for your own future and your child's. When discussing your decision to send your kids to a community college with friends, feel free to make it clear to them that it was a choice your family made because it was the best option, not because it was the only option. If you want to make them feel stupid, use phrases like, "We looked at the data and the latest research, and we really concluded that this was the best investment decision."

 

Wishing you and your family peace as you make these important decisions.

 

 

 

I chatted with a neighbor on Saturday who had two boys do the 2+2 plan while living at home. The mom's work (real estate) took a significant downturn when they started, and the parents could only help with tuition. Both boys received some minimal merit aid and had part-time jobs. Both ended up at top-20 schools in their fields, and both graduated debt free. Both are in graduate programs and working.

 

I asked her if she had any regrets. She said absolutely none. People gave her a bad time about it, but the result was as good as if they gone into debt elsewhere.