Graduating high school and community college at the same time ?

[amyx4]

I'm looking for some BTDT advice from parents of current college students. I'm looking for home schooled high school students, that were 1. dual enrolled at a CC 2. choose to graduate with an associates at the end of their senior year in high school and then 3. continued on to a 4 year university.

I'm trying to find out if there are any hidden negatives that we might not be aware of?  Thanks!

[mysticmomma]

I am als curious. Though my oldest is only 11.

[Pawz4me]

We haven't BTDT yet, and we aren't homeschooling.  But DS is a rising senior in a public early college high school program. He will receive an AS degree a couple of weeks before he graduates from high school. All of the four-year universities we've looked at will consider him an incoming freshman for scholarship purposes. Some have a hybrid model where he will be allowed to take advantage of other things (like housing choices) as if  he were a transfer student. They seem to want to give high school students who have already earned a two-year degree every benefit they can. So far we haven't found any negatives. The high school guidance counselor, who is pretty good at keeping the parents informed of issues, certainly hasn't warned of anything. But one caveat--we've only looked at colleges in state. Early college programs are very common here, there is a strong articulation agreement, and the four year universities in the area (public and private) are used to high school students who have already earned a two year degree. Things may be different in areas where the universities aren't so used to that.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Pawz4me

[G5052]

The local community college normally has 4-6 students do this every year. During my years as a professor there, I taught some of these students and have kept up with them. One is the daughter of a vet (her dad is the office manager). She got her associate's, went to the flagship tech school in biology, went to a well-ranked vet school, worked elsewhere for several years, and is now a partner with her mother.

 

Even though the CC's are very tied into the 4-years here, I've heard that students in that situation are considered transfer students because of degree completion in every case that I'm aware of. Some college set hour limits (i.e. you will not be considered a transfer student as long as you have completed less than 32 credit hours), and some flat out say that degree completion means that you're a transfer student.

 

That said, we have a lot of guaranteed transfer agreements, and the 4-years have really improved the availability of transfer scholarships.

 

As a professor, I chose not to do that for various reasons including scheduling, mature content, and the desire to let them mature before attending a secular college. Mine do some dual enrollment, but not full degrees.

[hillfarm]

Dd did dual enrollment, although she attended all her junior and senior year classes of high school at the cc. She earned 63 credit hours, which will cover all but 1 or 2 of the gen ed requirements for the university. They were very clear that although she has all the credits, she would be considered as a first year university student. She qualified for freshman financial aid levels, will be living in the freshman-only dorm, has the same restrictions (no car on campus, required to live on campus, learning community involvement, etc) as all other freshmen. 

 

The admissions adviser told us that when it will make a difference is when she registers for classes in future years. Due to having a higher number of credits, she will be able to register for her classes earlier than most of her original cohort. I am unclear about how the other things (cars, residency) will be determined, or when/if qualifiers will change from time on campus to credit hours earned.

 

Benefits we are aware of so far (she starts uni this fall): she is much more relaxed about the potential academic pressures, she will be able to easily do a double major and still graduate in 4 years, she is already comfortable with dealing with most of the students being older than her, she is used to not being "babied" by her instructors (unlike our local public high schools).

 

Negatives: she gets a little weary sometimes as being classified as neither "fish nor fowl", different from her friends but not like the others either. It was difficult to get the preassigned adviser at orientation to comprehend that as a freshman, she already has all but one junior-level course of the gen ed reqs completed.The first Learning Community they tried to put her in wouldn't work because she had already taken both of the classes. They had to move her to a more advanced one.

 

I am surprised that schools are not more familiar with dealing with dual enrollment students who bring many credits with them.The program is very popular in our area and they have been seeing these students coming into their programs for several years. I would also urge parents to contact potential schools to see how they handle this because I have been told it varies widely from school to school. 

 

We were fortunate to have a website that provided a specific list of equivalents between her cc and uni, so we could be certain what classes would transfer and at what level. If your dc are considering attending a local 4-yr school, perhaps they could take their de classes at the 4-yr directly. That way there could be no confusion about what would transfer. HTH

[Lori D.]

DS#1 was home schooled from grade 2 through high school graduation, and then went on to the community college and earned his AAS, and then transferred to a 4-year university and just earned his Bachelor's. So, not done as dual enrollment, but we do fit all the other parts of your scenario. ;)

 

Just wanted to note that the pros and cons will vary depending on your student and the opportunities available to you locally; on university credit transfer policies; and also on whether the Associate's degree is an AA/AS (Associate's of Arts/Associate's of Science) or an AAS (Associate's of Applied Science).

 

The AA or AS degree is a "stepping stone to a Bachelor's degree" -- it pretty much covers the first 2 years of general ed. requirements and early general core credits of a 4-year degree in Humanities/Arts (AA) or STEM field (AS) -- Think of it as taking the first 2 years of a 4-year degree at a community college rather than a 4-year university. Most or all of the credits taken to complete an AA or AS will be transferable to a university, depending on the articulation agreement between the community college and the university. However, none of the courses in the AA or AS make the student immediately employable.

 

On a different path is the AAS, which is the direct to work degree", as the majority of the AAS credits are core classes directly in the vocational-tech field of the AAS degree. Far fewer of the credits are usually directly transferable to a 4-year degree. But, since most of the coursework was designed for learning what is required for a vocational-tech job the student is immediately employable for the skilled or vo-tech job. An AAS can be more vocationally-based, such as cosmetology or massage therapist, or more tech-based such as Computer or Digital Media specialities, or more STEM-based, such as Occupational Therapist, or a Tech in Physical Therapy, Sonography, Xray, Respitory, etc.

 

DS#1 took 3 years at the CC -- 2 years to earn the AAS, and the third year to take the remaining credits needed to transfer to the 4-year university and only need 2 years at the university to complete the Bachelor's degree.

 

Below are some potential pros and cons -- many are the same pros and cons of just doing some dual enrollment courses (not an Associate's) during high school:

 

Possible Pros

- may have access to free dual enrollment in your area

- high GPA earned at the CC with dual enrollment is very likely to land the student large scholarship $$

- depending on the degree field and the Associate's and transferability of credits, the student may be able to enter directly into junior-level courses at the university and only need 2 years to complete a Bachelor's degree

- allows the student to complete entry-level courses with actual instructors and smaller classes at the CC instead of mass lectures or classes taught by TAs at the university

- allows an accelerated student to work at their academic level

- if the Associate's is an AAS, the student may potentially be able to work part time at that occupation (for higher pay than entry-level jobs) while completing the Bachelor's degree

- if the Associate's is an AAS in a STEM area, that may give the student an advantage in applying for internships or special opportunities

- the student may be eligible to jump immediately into an Honor's program, or take special/advanced courses due to the dual enrollment courses

- the student may be able to pursue a special minor, or a double major with the "extra time" available by knocking out some classes in advance through the dual enrollment and Associate's

 

Possible Cons

- every grade is part of the student's permanent college GPA

- some universities do not transfer credits with a grade lower than a "B" -- so a "C" grade may allow the student to still earn the Associate's, but may not transfer to the university

- some universities limit the total amount of college credits (from dual enrollment) that a student can have and still have freshman status (which is where the majority of scholarships are awarded) -- I have seen unlimited credits, 60 credits, 23-24 credits, and as low as 12 credits (if you exceed the university's limit, you are then considered a transfer student)

- dual enrollment high school students are not eligible for CC scholarships (must be a full-time college student)

- courses taken in the core subject area for an AAS tend to be far less transferable (the general ed. courses for an AA or AS tend to be much more transferable)

- carefully check out the future 4-year university's degree program that the student would transfer -- many universities are scheduling required classes for some Engineering, Medical and other STEM degree programs so that they are staggered in such a way that the student MUST attend all 4 years, so earning an Associate's does not shave off any time from earning the 4-year Bachelor's degree

- the college course load may be too much and the student may not be able to quite complete the Associate's degree by the end of high school -- will that be problematic? 

- the student can burn out on college, having spent so much of high school working at a college level

- the student may not be able to participate in valuable or interesting high school extracurriculars due to the college class schedule or workload

 

 

BEST of luck as you research, research, research all the specific options and policies of the schools involved! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Lori D.

[amyx4]

So I took a bunch of these questions and called the closest state U to me. So here's what I learned. We're in a state that has transfer agreements from the all the CC to the StateU. Those classes are mostly gen ed requirements. StateU rep said, "Yes, all of the gen ed classes will transfer."  Great! but ds has finished all the gen ed classes, so now what? 

 

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. So we think maybe the next step is to get a Associates degree thinking he'll only need to be at the StateU for two years. So I pull up these individual agreements (in his potential major) and compare them to the course listing a traditional (just finished high school senior) incoming freshman would need to take.  And surprise! The courses don't line up.  So I call the StateU rep and she confirms that yes that is the current agreement between the schools but yes the courses don't line up.  :huh:

 

So for example, you need English 201 & 202 to get the Associates. The individual agreement at the CC says that lines up with English 201 & 202 at the StateU. However, when I doubled checked the requirements English majors at State U they don't use 201&202 for graduation requirements. English majors need 221&222.  :huh:  Clear as mud?!

 

The rep and I had a whole other side conversation about the financial part of this.... I may post questions about that another time. Thanks, for the help!

[Melissa B]

So I took a bunch of these questions and called the closest state U to me. So here's what I learned. We're in a state that has transfer agreements from the all the CC to the StateU. Those classes are mostly gen ed requirements. StateU rep said, "Yes, all of the gen ed classes will transfer."  Great! but ds has finished all the gen ed classes, so now what? 

 

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. So we think maybe the next step is to get a Associates degree thinking he'll only need to be at the StateU for two years. So I pull up these individual agreements (in his potential major) and compare them to the course listing a traditional (just finished high school senior) incoming freshman would need to take.  And surprise! The courses don't line up.  So I call the StateU rep and she confirms that yes that is the current agreement between the schools but yes the courses don't line up.  :huh:

 

So for example, you need English 201 & 202 to get the Associates. The individual agreement at the CC says that lines up with English 201 & 202 at the StateU. However, when I doubled checked the requirements English majors at State U they don't use 201&202 for graduation requirements. English majors need 221&222.  :huh:  Clear as mud?!

 

The rep and I had a whole other side conversation about the financial part of this.... I may post questions about that another time. Thanks, for the help!

 

My dd looked at the two universities she was most likely to attend and took the classes she knew she would need rather than the classes toward an AA. Since she knew she was staying in state this was easier to do. 

 

I did think of another issue, but one that cannot really be anticipated. Universities can change their degree requirements from year to year and dual enrollment students are not grandfathered in. My dd has several classes on her transcript that would have worked three years ago, but are no longer relevant toward any of the degrees she wishes to pursue. She is also still short one gen ed class that was added as a requirement last year.

[MarkT]

So I took a bunch of these questions and called the closest state U to me. So here's what I learned. We're in a state that has transfer agreements from the all the CC to the StateU. Those classes are mostly gen ed requirements. StateU rep said, "Yes, all of the gen ed classes will transfer."  Great! but ds has finished all the gen ed classes, so now what? 

 

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. So we think maybe the next step is to get a Associates degree thinking he'll only need to be at the StateU for two years. So I pull up these individual agreements (in his potential major) and compare them to the course listing a traditional (just finished high school senior) incoming freshman would need to take.  And surprise! The courses don't line up.  So I call the StateU rep and she confirms that yes that is the current agreement between the schools but yes the courses don't line up.  :huh:

 

So for example, you need English 201 & 202 to get the Associates. The individual agreement at the CC says that lines up with English 201 & 202 at the StateU. However, when I doubled checked the requirements English majors at State U they don't use 201&202 for graduation requirements. English majors need 221&222.  :huh:  Clear as mud?!

 

The rep and I had a whole other side conversation about the financial part of this.... I may post questions about that another time. Thanks, for the help!

yes for Engineering it is usually a straightforward transfer from CC because of ABET requirements.  Other majors can be a crap shoot. For example, our local CC Comp Sci courses do not match well with the state U's.

 

Maybe just look at "saving" a semester or two of credits.

[SkateLeft]

Both of my girls did full-time dual enrollment in 11th and 12th grade, but we opted not to have them pursue the AA/AS because it would have made them a "degree seeking student" at some of the universities they were considering, which would have made them ineligible for freshman scholarships. Since both of them received hefty academic scholarships, I'm glad we choose that route.

 

 

[amyx4]

yes for Engineering it is usually a straightforward transfer from CC because of ABET requirements.  Other majors can be a crap shoot. For example, our local CC Comp Sci courses do not match well with the state U's.

 

Maybe just look at "saving" a semester or two of credits.

I used the English example because I try not to give away too much personal information on a public board. However, since you've posted, I will add further details. The agreement is for Electrical or Mechanical Engineering Associates degree from the CC to the State U. The class that's the problem is Physics

Edited June 10, 2016 by amyx4

[Lori D.]

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. 

 

To maximize transferability of credits, completing an AA will lock your student into attending that one specific school. Are you all fine with that? Or is there the possibility that the student may want to attend another university? If there is that chance, either:

- you'll want to take just select dual enrollment courses that stand the best chance of transferring

- OR be okay with paying for/taking some dual enrollment courses that will count as both high school and college credit, but just might not ALSO help knock out gen. ed. requirements for a future 4-year degree

- OR, look into AP or CLEP testing to earn credit at a wide variety of universities

 

 

So I took a bunch of these questions and called the closest state U to me. So here's what I learned. We're in a state that has transfer agreements from the all the CC to the StateU. Those classes are mostly gen ed requirements. StateU rep said, "Yes, all of the gen ed classes will transfer."  Great! but ds has finished all the gen ed classes, so now what? 

 

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. So we think maybe the next step is to get a Associates degree thinking he'll only need to be at the StateU for two years. So I pull up these individual agreements (in his potential major) and compare them to the course listing a traditional (just finished high school senior) incoming freshman would need to take.  And surprise! The courses don't line up.  So I call the StateU rep and she confirms that yes that is the current agreement between the schools but yes the courses don't line up.  :huh:

 

So for example, you need English 201 & 202 to get the Associates. The individual agreement at the CC says that lines up with English 201 & 202 at the StateU. However, when I doubled checked the requirements English majors at State U they don't use 201&202 for graduation requirements. English majors need 221&222.  :huh:  Clear as mud?!

 

There is a difference between "yes, all the gen. ed. classes transfer" and "yes, all the gen. ed. credits transfer AND count towards the degree program". In the first case, some credits *are transferring* -- but as "electives", which do not fulfill the specific degree requirements. What you are describing here might be that situation -- Eng. 201/202 are the specific AAS degree requirements, and they do transfer to the State U -- but they transfer as electives, not as the specific Eng. 221/222 credits required for the 4-year degree.

 

However, you do say that this is the case for an AA degree which transfers to the State U. And an AA degree is the "stepping stone" to the 4-year degree, so the AA is designed to align up with the State U's general ed. courses so the student can step directly into the core concentration courses for the 4-year degree.

 

What might be going on here in your example is that you were comparing English credits from the AA for an *English major* -- and English majors might be required to take a *different* set of intro English courses because it is their concentration and they would be taking a more rigorous or in-depth version of that set of intro English courses than any other degree program.

 

What happens when you compare the English requirements for a  freshmen going into a *different* degree program at the State U that accepts the AA -- say, Communications, Psychology, or Fine Arts**? They may only require the "regular" intro to English credits of Eng. 201/202.

 

** = Remember, the AA degree is for transfer into the Humanities or Arts; the AS degree is for transfer to a Bachelor's in the STEM fields or Medicine. So, you would NOT want to compare State U gen. ed. requirements for STEM degree programs, as those usually require an AS degree, which will have some differences from the gen. ed. requirements of the AA degree which is geared for Humanities or Arts based degree programs at the State U.

 

Just a thought! Hope you get this resolved soon, so you can move forward in your planning! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

ETA:

I was cross-posting while you added this further detail:

 

I used the English example because I try not to give away too much personal information on a public board. However, since you've posted, I will add further details. The agreement is for Electrical or Mechanical Engineering Associates degree from the CC to the State U. The class that's the problem is Physics.

 

This very well may be a problem similar to what I described with your English credit example above.

 

If it is just the one Physics class that is the problem, that sounds like the AA (or AS) degree in Electrical or Mechanical Engineering would only require a *general* Physics science course, BUT, the specific State U's degree program that DS is interested in has a need of a more focused/rigorous Physics course.

 

If it is just a matter of that one Physics course, can DS just wait and take that one Physics course in his Freshman year at the State U -- or is it a prerequisite course that would delay him from moving forward in other courses as well?

 

Can DS take that specific Physics course in addition to the courses required for the AA? Does he actually *need* the AA, or can he specifically tailor his dual enrollment to meet the 4-year degree program requirements and skip the AA? Or is there a "safety net" for earning the AA -- i.e., it would be guaranteed to be accepted by the State U, even if State U changes the course requirements for the 4-year degree before DS graduates and is enrolled at the State U?

 

BEST of luck as you attempt to penetrate the bureaucracy of TWO institutions of higher education!  :ohmy:  Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Lori D.

[amyx4]

There is a difference between "yes, all the gen. ed. classes transfer" and "yes, all the gen. ed. credits transfer AND count towards the degree program". In the first case, some credits *are transferring* -- but as "electives", which do not fulfill the specific degree requirements. What you are describing here might be that situation -- Eng. 201/202 are the specific AAS degree requirements, and they do transfer to the State U -- but they transfer as electives, not as the specific Eng. 221/222 credits required for the 4-year degree.

 

oops! That's Lori's words and I quoted wrong. Sorry

Edited June 10, 2016 by amyx4

[amyx4]

Lori, I completely agree and understand what you are saying. However, this CC makes it look like if you take these specific 64 credits on this list then you'll arrive as a Junior at StateU. It's sold as an agreement between CC and StateU. It feels to me it feels like "bait&switch"

Edited June 10, 2016 by amyx4

[Lori D.]

I was cross-posting an "Edited-To-Add" to my above post in response to your specific details about the course in question being Physics, while you added another post to the thread. ;) Don't know if any of those further questions are helpful or relevant, but just wanted to point to those in case you missed that.

 

 

Lori, I completely agree and understand what you are saying. However, this CC makes it look like if you take these specific 64 credits on this list then you'll arrive as a Junior at StateU. It's sold as an agreement between CC and StateU. It feels to me it feels like "bait&switch"

 

It does sound like it would be in your best interest to be also working very closely with the State U.

 

Also, just want to note that an AA or AS degree is about *general* requirements for a wide variety of future 4-year degrees. Every 4-year degree program is going to have minor tweaks from that general list of requirements to give their students a jump-start into more specialized or concentrated or rigorous studies in that field. An AA or AS is just not designed to handle all the many specialized tweaks. :)

 

 

So I … called the closest state U to me… We're in a state that has transfer agreements from the all the CC to the StateU. Those classes are mostly gen ed requirements. StateU rep said, "Yes, all of the gen ed classes will transfer."  Great! but ds has finished all the gen ed classes, so now what? 

 

Getting back to this earlier statement of yours that I missed while thinking about the AA degree vs. credit transfer conundrum… If DS has finished all the gen. ed classes already, you're in a bit of a bind.

 

It's probably too late to just go ahead and graduate DS and apply for admissions to the State U for this fall. Even if he could still make the deadline, the chances of scholarships being available, or getting into campus housing are much reduced at this late date.

 

And doing just a fall semester of homeschool and dual enrollment and applying for starting at the State U in spring 2017 would not be any better as far as scholarships, as those tend to all be awarded on an annual basis in late spring for the following school year...

 

Are there any more courses specific to the 4-year degree program that DS could take as dual enrollment this next year -- either from the CC or even from State U? (Do check on the credit limit for transferring classes taken at the CC if DS continues to take classes at the CC.)

 

Otherwise, would it be that horrible if DS spent the next year working on the AA degree and had to take the one specific Physics course once he hits the State U? Or, what about working on an AAS degree (the more "hands-on" / "direct-to-work degree") that would compliment/support his choice of future 4-year degree program? That might give him an edge for applying for an internship while at the State U...

 

Just thinking out loud here… Don't know if any of this helps or applies… ;) Warmly, Lori D.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Lori D.

[hillfarm]

At the school dd will be attending, there are two sets of requirements. One set of gen reqs is for all undergraduates of the university. The second set is specific to each school/college there. While there may be some amount of cross-over, the two are not identical, even for Arts and Sciences. So dd will need to take one junior level composition class to finish with the first set and will have to take an applied science and 4 semesters of foreign language (she took it during her 8th and 10th grades of homeschooling, but feared that she had forgotten too much so chose not to take the placement test and just start at the beginning) to complete the second set of requirements. Everything else she takes at the uni will be in one of her two majors or something just for fun.

 

The website I mentioned above specifically listed the equivalent classes from the cc to the uni and also had it broken down so that she could determine which ones fulfilled which requirements. Do check to see if the schools you are considering provide this. It was very helpful to know that credits from English 151 at the cc would be accepted at the uni as English Composition 1510, which filled the English portion of the first level of uni-wide gen reqs.

 

In general, the advising people at the local cc caution 4 yr bound students to focus on the gen eds and not to take classes other than the introductory ones in their major area, since most of the 4 yrs around here want all of those classes to be taken on their campus, from their instructors. Doing so will result in what the cc calls a Liberal Arts Transfer degree, an AA that has minimal practical use in seeking a job/career. As Lori D. mentioned, the AAS is the 2 yr degree that is intended to give students a practical degree they can use to begin a career.

 

We had to be on top of things to be sure that all dd's high school credit requirements were met while simultaneously meeting the 2 yr degree requirements and the 4yr gen ed reqs. They have an annoying equivalency where each cc credit is counted as .2 of a high school credit, so one cc semester 3-credit class will not equal one full hs credit and 2 cc semesters will be .2 over. I'm not sure if this was an artifact of the change from quarters to semesters, of the updated requirements for hs students, or a bit of greed on the part of the cc, which stands to benefit financially when students have to pick up that one extra semester of cc classes in math, English or science to fill all their high school needs.

 

Dd is taking one extra cc class over the summer, but this was due to a midstream change of course from a Business Administration Transfer AA degree program to the more general Liberal Arts Transfer AA. Although her basic d/e program was fully paid for by the state, including books, this summer class is through another program and we had to pay $99 for it. We would have had to buy the book, but the cc library had several copies and the librarian kindly loaned one to her for the duration of the semester.

 

One way to avoid all this would be to take the d/e classes at the 4 yr college or uni, if possible. In my area, students can do this but must have a slightly higher gpa for the state uni d/e program and a bit higher than that for the private 4 yr. However, this allows no wiggle room for that school to say that English Composition 1510, taken on their campus, taught by their instructor to d/e students and their undergraduates alike, would not count. If a student had been taking d/e classes for several years and had already completed the gen reqs and wanted to get started on their core classes for their major, this would be a good use of their remaining d/e time. It only works if you are local to those schools though. ETA: I just remembered that many classes are now available online. Depending on the subject, your student might be able to get some of those core classes completed even if you don't live near the 4 yr school.)

Edited June 11, 2016 by hillfarm

[angela in ohio]

Second dd took two years worth of credit, but did not complete a CC degree. She would have had to take some courses that were not useful and did not transfer to complete any available Associate's Degrees.

 

I can tell you what just having the credits does, though. On the plus side, as a pp said, she will have more credits and that gets her an earlier scheduling time than others in her class. On the down side, tuition increases once you become a junior, so she will pay that higher tuition for most of her four years.

 

Our state has agreements on the 2+2 programs. We have had a few students we know do this. Yes, the full two years transfers over and they come in as juniors. BUT they are out of sync and missed some intro major classes (and instead have some electives others wouldn't have taken until their junior or senior year), so they end up struggling to graduate in four years because of prereqs.

Edited June 13, 2016 by angela in ohio

[Melissa B]

 

 

I can tell you what just having the credits does, though. On the plus side, as a pp said, she will have more credits and that gets her an earlier scheduling time than others in her class. On the down side, tuition increases once you become a junior, so she will pay that higher tuition for most of her four years.

 

 

Is this common among universities? I have not seen it at any colleges my first dd looked into, only a higher tuition for graduate classes. Locally, graduate class prices are 2.5 times as much as undergrad classes. How much does tuition generally increase as a junior? This is something new to me that I didn't know to warn my kids about.

[Matryoshka]

Is this common among universities? I have not seen it at any colleges my first dd looked into, only a higher tuition for graduate classes. Locally, graduate class prices are 2.5 times as much as undergrad classes. How much does tuition generally increase as a junior? This is something new to me that I didn't know to warn my kids about.

 

I have never heard of that and hope there's not some fine print I've been missing!  I've figured that I'll have to pay more by the time they're juniors, but just because of rising tuition creep, not because junior/senior level classes cost more in general(!)

 

Just found out my homeschooled dd will be considered an incoming sophomore because of all her credits - I think they're giving her 51 in all.  (and it ends up being a good thing she didn't take any more classes/APs/CLEPs because if she have come in with 53 credits - just two more! - they'd consider her a junior already!) In addition to having completed most of her GenEds, it means they've also waived the First Year Seminar that's normally mandatory.

 

She did not graduate from the CC.  Only 32 of the credits are from the CC.  The rest are AP, CLEP, and one course from a 4-year uni.

[amyx4]

Our state has agreements on the 2+2 programs. We have had a few students we know do this. Yes, the full two years transfers over and they come in as juniors. BUT they are out of sync and missed some intro major classes (and instead have some electives others wouldn't have taken until their junior or senior year), so they end up struggling to graduate in four years because of prereqs.

 

This is what I discovered by calling the StateU and hunting around the website. It contributed to that "bait&switch" feeling I'm having.  You explained it much better than I did. 

[Arch at Home]

My dd will graduate next May with an AA and a high school diploma. We have found that the local universities will all consider a Freshman with Junior standing but that how classes slot will depend on the major. The advantage with be getting to enroll earlier and getting into the meatier classes. The selective LACs she is looking at severely limit the number of classes (4 - 6 classes) she can transfer and they require that that each class be worth 4 CUs. They do combine classes to get 4 CUs - English 101 + English 102 = 3 CU + 3 CU will transfer as one 4 CU English class. Unfortunately, this does not work with most of her CC classes. The LACs do look at strength of classes on her transcript and the CC classes will give her that leg up in that regard. Consequently, though she would like to have more to show for her CC time, if she can get accepted and get a good financial aide package at one of these LACs she will be willing to forgo advanced standing.

[G5052]

Our state has agreements on the 2+2 programs. We have had a few students we know do this. Yes, the full two years transfers over and they come in as juniors. BUT they are out of sync and missed some intro major classes (and instead have some electives others wouldn't have taken until their junior or senior year), so they end up struggling to graduate in four years because of prereqs.

 

Mine is in a 2+2 program, and tracking it all has required a spreadsheet. The problem is that you take some credits for the CC that the 4-year doesn't care about, the 4-year wants some credits that are not required by the CC, and our local CC doesn't even offer some of the credits that the 4-year wants. Thankfully a neighboring CC does, but it will mean 4 classes that have to be transferred into the local CC. They seemed completely confused by this when we were there last week.

 

One of DS's buds completely underestimated this and likely will not be able to start at the 4-year in the fall. Because of the differing ways that the CC and 4-year handle English credits, he's short one literature class and has been denied guaranteed admission. They're still fighting it, but uh...it's June. It's too late for transfer application, and his program runs on the assumption that you enter in the fall. Nearly all of the students there have already registered too. If he takes the missing lit class at the CC and enters in January, he will be out-of-synch and may not be able to get a full load then. 

[regentrude]

Lori, I completely agree and understand what you are saying. However, this CC makes it look like if you take these specific 64 credits on this list then you'll arrive as a Junior at StateU. It's sold as an agreement between CC and StateU. It feels to me it feels like "bait&switch"

 

But it should be fairly obvious that such a statement cannot possibly encompass all majors.

Any major that, for example, requires calculus based physics, would need a different physics course than everybody else. 

In many majors, specialized coursework begins well before junior year - and those courses would not have been offered at the CC as part of general credits.

 

No 64 credits can be applicable towards all majors - such a statement simply does not make sense.

 

ETA: It is always worth talking to the undergraduate advisor of the department and inquire whether the department can issue a substitution form for a particular course on an individual basis. We routinely do this for our majors who, on paper, are required to take a particular course number and whose credit transferred in under a different number, or who switched majors. The department can evaluate the course and decide whether it satisfies the requirements. This is information you should not ask the registrar or admissions department about since they do not possess the knowledge to make this call, you must ask the academic department.

Edited June 13, 2016 by regentrude

[amyx4]

 

 

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. So we think maybe the next step is to get a Associates degree thinking he'll only need to be at the StateU for two years. So I pull up these individual agreements (in his potential major) and compare them to the course listing a traditional (just finished high school senior) incoming freshman would need to take.  And surprise! The courses don't line up.  So I call the StateU rep and she confirms that yes that is the current agreement between the schools but yes the courses don't line up.  :huh:

 

 

Regentrude,  This is what is available in my state. Probably similar to what G5052 posted at about the 2+2 program offered in her state not lining up. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by amyx4

[Ellie]

I'm looking for some BTDT advice from parents of current college students. I'm looking for home schooled high school students, that were 1. dual enrolled at a CC 2. choose to graduate with an associates at the end of their senior year in high school and then 3. continued on to a 4 year university.

 

I'm trying to find out if there are any hidden negatives that we might not be aware of?  Thanks!

 

In California, there were no negatives. Both my dds began attending c.c. when they were 14. We did not push them to get an A.A. in two years. I graduated them from "high school" on their 16th birthdays because by then they were full time college students. Both earned AA degrees (one earned multiple degrees).  Neither has found any negatives to having done that.

[regentrude]

Regentrude,  This is what is available in my state. Probably similar to what G5052 posted at about the 2+2 program offered in her state not lining up. 

 

When you said you "called the state U rep", who did you actually talk to? This may well be the current articulation agreement, and the students may well transfer in with junior standing - but this does not mean it will only take them two years to finish. But unless you talk to a department advisor you won't find out what exactly the mismatch means and for which courses you can arrange for an individual equivalency evaluation.

 

[Bootsie]

. On the down side, tuition increases once you become a junior, so she will pay that higher tuition for most of her four years.

 

 

I have not seen any cases of tuition increasing because a student has junior standing.  For undergraduate courses, I have seen the following:

 

1)  Courses (usually upper level) in certain areas of high demand or high cost to the university having a surcharge for tuition.

2)  Students who have repeated a course or who have completed a certain number of hours without attaining a degree having to pay higher tuition at a state school because state subsidizing of the students course does not occur.

[Laurel-in-CA]

Two downsides we found:

1. DS didn't qualify for any scholarship money, despite having a 3.78 gpa at the CC. That could be partly due to the fact he has a well-paying p/t job and is living @ home, but there were zero $$ available to him. Sigh. OTOH, he can pay for most of his State U tuition himself and will be able to graduate debt free if he wishes.
2. DS originally planned to transfer spring semester - but when he applied to transfer the State U was "impacted" and had no room for him. He ended up spending a 3rd year (so he was 19 @ transfer) at the CC, and spent his time getting a certificate to go with his AA. This has given him a bit more freedom in choosing classes. I wish he had talked more to State U, as he could have done his mandatory-for-graduation internship at the CC during that year of waiting....but hindsight is 20-20.

[G5052]

When you said you "called the state U rep", who did you actually talk to? This may well be the current articulation agreement, and the students may well transfer in with junior standing - but this does not mean it will only take them two years to finish. But unless you talk to a department advisor you won't find out what exactly the mismatch means and for which courses you can arrange for an individual equivalency evaluation.

 

 

In my state, the guaranteed transfer program is handled by admissions. Either you meet their exact list of courses and grades or you don't. The state community college system is very detailed about what must be taught in each course, and the guaranteed transfer means that you have to come from a state community college. The transfer counsellor I talked said that people really don't get how strict it is, but it does offer a clear 2+2 path. She also said that many, many students think they qualify, and then they end up just coming in as a transfer with an associate's because they missed something. That of course causes problems in programs where the curriculum is very strictly structured with a limited number of class sections because you get out of "synch."

 

If you just "plain" transfer, that's an entirely different matter. Either you didn't graduate or you're missing something.

[G5052]

When you said you "called the state U rep", who did you actually talk to? This may well be the current articulation agreement, and the students may well transfer in with junior standing - but this does not mean it will only take them two years to finish. But unless you talk to a department advisor you won't find out what exactly the mismatch means and for which courses you can arrange for an individual equivalency evaluation.

 

 

DD's college of choice has very specific advisors on the 2+2 program. Others handle regular transfers. The college offers a specific state community college transfer event once a month where you can book an appointment with one of the 2+2 advisors.

 

Bottom line is that transferring on the guaranteed 2+2 is more complicated, but costs less in the long run.

[Ellie]

Lori, I completely agree and understand what you are saying. However, this CC makes it look like if you take these specific 64 credits on this list then you'll arrive as a Junior at StateU. It's sold as an agreement between CC and StateU. It feels to me it feels like "bait&switch"

 

That's how it worked for my California grad, who went on to San Jose State, entering as a junior after completing her AA at the c.c.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Ellie

[kiana]

It is quite possible to enter as a junior and still not be able to graduate in two more years if inappropriate classes are chosen for the intended major. For example, someone who wants to major in math who has done nothing higher than college algebra just cannot complete the degree program in two years. Believe it or not, we receive several transfer students each year who have this issue -- whether they have been misadvised, changed their mind about their major, or did not listen to their advisor, I am not sure -- and they are extremely disappointed to learn that they will need at least 7 semesters more to get their degree. But they will still have junior standing because of their credits. So it is not a lie per se, but not the whole truth.

 

This is a lot less of an issue for a student who has been adequately advised (for example, no matter what the degree program says, and no matter where they intend to transfer, someone who intends to major in math should complete the calculus sequence at their CC if they intend to graduate on time) or a student who chooses a less sequential major.

 

For an engineering major where one class is required to transfer and a different, very similar class is required for the degree program, I'd be trying to straighten this out by contacting the specific college, including the engineering department (they will probably know how incoming transfer students have resolved this in the past) as engineering is one of those sequential majors where you really need to transfer with the right classes.

[bugs]

Both dd and ds graduated simultaneously from high school (home schooled) and cc with an AA.  They will both need four additional years to complete their bachelors. At 16 my dd did not know what she wanted to major in, and our objective was to allow her to take a variety of classes to explore while in high school.  She will graduate with a double major at the university and several requirements were met while she was in high school.  DS has wanted to be an engineer for a long time, however, there is really no way I would have allowed him to follow a pre-engineering course of study at the cc as a teen - it would have been overwhelming for him.  He opted for a marine biology based college academy that allowed him to get his AA.  He had tons of science, and a lot of his classes will count for university credit (Calc I & II, Composition, etc), but he will probably need 4 years to complete his B.S. as well.

 

I did know ahead of time that my kids' AA would likely not reduce their time at university.  I used it as high school and the AA was just gravy.

[Pawz4me]

Both dd and ds graduated simultaneously from high school (home schooled) and cc with an AA.  They will both need four additional years to complete their bachelors. At 16 my dd did not know what she wanted to major in, and our objective was to allow her to take a variety of classes to explore while in high school.  She will graduate with a double major at the university and several requirements were met while she was in high school.  DS has wanted to be an engineer for a long time, however, there is really no way I would have allowed him to follow a pre-engineering course of study at the cc as a teen - it would have been overwhelming for him.  He opted for a marine biology based college academy that allowed him to get his AA.  He had tons of science, and a lot of his classes will count for university credit (Calc I & II, Composition, etc), but he will probably need 4 years to complete his B.S. as well.

 

I did know ahead of time that my kids' AA would likely not reduce their time at university.  I used it as high school and the AA was just gravy.

 

:iagree:

 

We encouraged youngest DS to apply to the early college high school because we felt it was the best high school choice for him. We hope that having all the credits from an AS degree will give him the opportunity to take classes at a four year uni that he might not have otherwise been able to work into his schedule, or maybe allow him an easier-than-usual double major or to participate in an accelerated masters program. If he ends up still going four years then so be it. The solid high school experience was our main objective.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So I took a bunch of these questions and called the closest state U to me. So here's what I learned. We're in a state that has transfer agreements from the all the CC to the StateU. Those classes are mostly gen ed requirements. StateU rep said, "Yes, all of the gen ed classes will transfer."  Great! but ds has finished all the gen ed classes, so now what? 

 

So, in my state, each individual cc has individual agreements with each StateU over which AA degrees transfer into a StateU. So we think maybe the next step is to get a Associates degree thinking he'll only need to be at the StateU for two years. So I pull up these individual agreements (in his potential major) and compare them to the course listing a traditional (just finished high school senior) incoming freshman would need to take.  And surprise! The courses don't line up.  So I call the StateU rep and she confirms that yes that is the current agreement between the schools but yes the courses don't line up.  :huh:

 

So for example, you need English 201 & 202 to get the Associates. The individual agreement at the CC says that lines up with English 201 & 202 at the StateU. However, when I doubled checked the requirements English majors at State U they don't use 201&202 for graduation requirements. English majors need 221&222.  :huh:  Clear as mud?!

 

The rep and I had a whole other side conversation about the financial part of this.... I may post questions about that another time. Thanks, for the help!

 

I can see how this would be an issue, depending on the major.

 

I took a look at the AA requirements at the CC where my kids do dual enrollment.  You have to take the ENG 100 course which is a very basic writing course.  AA students also have to take a couple more Writing Intensive courses, some of which could be in English, but might be all outside English (ie, Hawaiian, Hawaiian Studies, East Asian Languages and Literature also fill the same distribution as English).  So a student might transfer credits, but have taken courses to meet the AA requirement that don't meet major requirements for the BA.

 

The other possible issue is that a number of courses at the CC all transfer in as the same course at the university (the CC's here are all part of the state university system, which has various campuses).  So you might take 3-4 different courses at the CC (ex, American Literature, Brit Lit before 1800, Brit Lit after 1800, World Lit to 1600, World Lit after 1600) and find that they all fall into the ENG 270 Lit History course.  There are various ENG 270s at the university, but it's not clear if a student can use more than one iteration to meet degree requirements.

[chiguirre]

 There are various ENG 270s at the university, but it's not clear if a student can use more than one iteration to meet degree requirements.

 

Do they distinguish between the classes with a letter? UT Austin does that with a bunch of classes. For example, micro is ECO 304K and macro is ECO 304L. They're not the same class and you can take both for credit.

[G5052]

FWIW -- we finally got the email that my oldest's AP and transfer credits are straightened out.

 

Next step? He has to file an "intent" application with the 4-year for transfer within the 2+2 program. This has to be done after completion of 45 credit hours. We'll go to the transfer event there in July and then do that. 

 

So something else to plan for if your program requires that.

Edited June 17, 2016 by G5052

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Do they distinguish between the classes with a letter? UT Austin does that with a bunch of classes. For example, micro is ECO 304K and macro is ECO 304L. They're not the same class and you can take both for credit.

They use another number. So 270(1) or 270(2).

 

But looking at the degree requirements, a student wouldn't need many 200 level courses and they may need a 270, 271, and 272 rather than a string of different 270s. I didn't keep digging because the websites are somewhat scattered. It was hard to find a degree course plan that showed the specifics I was looking for.

 

And this was staying withing one university system. The CCs fall under the Uni umbrella here. DS will be going to school out of state and will have to rely on the evaluation his university makes.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I did find the English Major Worksheet, which is actually quite nice, in that it is a fillable pdf that a student could update and email around or print and take to advising sessions.

 

Only two lower level courses are required, ENG 100, which is a composition course (DS took this at the CC and didn't find it to be very helpful.  That could be related to the writing skills of his classmates.  He rarely had constructive feedback on assignments.  Perhaps he was already at the target level of the course.  So far as I can tell, students cannot test out of this requirement with the placement test.  AP scores would get them past it.)

 

There is one other requirement for a 200 level course.  So one 200 level course at the CC would meet degree requirements.  If a student took more than that (say two Brit lit courses or Brit and American), then one would be in excess of the English degree requirements.  

 

There are 300 level requirements that cover similar periods as the 200 level Lit History courses.  So work done at the CC might prepare the student with background knowledge or familiarity with authors or works that he/she might see again.  They might let the student dabble in one period at the CC, then concentrate on other areas at the university.

 

I think there are lots of reasons for taking classes and that a course isn't necessarily "wasted" if it doesn't meet a degree requirement. (I took some online Greek and Roman literature classes a year ago, just because my brain felt rusty.  They were great classes that stretched me and exposed me to works I hadn't read and made me deal with some pieces on a deeper level.)  But there is a strong Buyer Beware element to completing a degree.  You can end up with a pile of credits that haven't moved you closer towards a goal if you don't pay attention.

 

There are some good discussions of reasons to do advanced work in high school (both AP and dual enrollment) in some of the threads pinned at the top of the board.  I think that it is worth keeping in mind that a homeschooler may be using them for more purposes than a traditional brick and mortar school graduate.  

 

Outside grades and possible teacher recommendations give an outside view of the student's ability

 

--A place or means to work at a higher level in a subject, possibly with classmates who are also working on the higher level

 

--Possible credit that will transfer towards a 4 year degree (this might be in distribution or university requirements* or it might be in requirements for the degree)

 

--Exposure to material that will be repeated in college (for example, DS1 took Calculus at the CC with the intent to repeat the course at university)

 

--Possibly meeting pre-requisite requirements for a course the student would like to take at the 4 year college.  (One of the board members encountered this a couple years ago.  IIRC, her kid had studied for one science AP, but didn't take the test, because the credit wouldn't apply in his situation.  Later he rant into an elective course that he wanted to take, but didn't yet have the prerequisites for.  The AP score would have given him the pre-requisite.)

 

The first two reasons above are more of a concern to homeschoolers than to other students.  A public school student will have a variety of teachers to ask for recommendations.  My oldest had only taken English from me up to the point where he was applying to colleges.  So for colleges that specifically asked for an English teacher rec, I was it.  One reason we had him take math at the CC, knowing that the Pre-Calc credits wouldn't count towards his college degree, was to give him options for a math teacher recommendation.

 

*I mentioned university requirements above.  This is something that I hadn't taken much notice of (my own college had a very strict core requirement, but I didn't think about it because everyone took pretty much the same courses for it).  There may be requirements for courses or experiences outside the major specific requirements that a student has to meet in order to graduate.  

 

Virginia Tech Curriculum for Liberal Education  For an engineering student, required courses in English, math and science will meet several of these areas.  

 

Purdue College of Science Core Requirements (there may be additional University Core requirements, I'm unsure)

 

 

One thing that I noticed with my oldest's college application year was that information on major requirements and university requirements was often buried in the department webpages.  Once we dug them out, they often provided a good way of inferring what the academic atmosphere at that school would be like.  He is a prospective Computer Science major.  Like English, nearly every college has a CS degree.  But some are focused on prepping people to be IT support for a company and others are on the cutting edge of computer design, with concentrations in robotics and other interesting applications.  The course plans helped him figure this out to some extent.  (If the first math requirement was pre-calc instead of calculus, it also gave him insight into the expected prep level of his future classmates.  If physics wasn't a requirement, it told him something about whether the program expected students to be working with physical applications or concentrating on coding.)  We didn't start looking at university core requirements until he'd pretty much picked his college.  This is something I plan to do earlier with DS2.  I think this can give some good insight into the general vibe at a school.

[angela in ohio]

Is this common among universities? I have not seen it at any colleges my first dd looked into, only a higher tuition for graduate classes. Locally, graduate class prices are 2.5 times as much as undergrad classes. How much does tuition generally increase as a junior? This is something new to me that I didn't know to warn my kids about.

 

https://finaid.umich.edu/cost-of-attendance/

 

I don't know if it's common or not, but they are definitely up front about it. It's roughly $2000 more a year. We had our first day of orientation today, and they were explaining it during the FA session for parents.

 

There's also a higher tuition rate for engineering students.

Edited June 20, 2016 by angela in ohio