What subjects/curriculum do your kids do indep. at 3/4th grade? (John Rosemond article today)

[Meadowlark]

I read the article in today's paper about homeschooling. It described an 8 yr. old who constantly whined, complained and gave her mother a hard time about everything she asked her to do. His answer was that she was probably micromanaging things. He suggested she choose non mom-intensive curricula and otherwise just kind of foster more independent time.

 

While I don't think things are quite that bad here, I see that that's exactly what I need to do too. Problem is, I don't know what subjects to make independent and then what curriculum to choose.

 

If you have a 3rd or 4th grader, what subjects do they do independently and what do you love for those subjects?

[hermione310]

We use MP's Core Curriculum these days, however, we still use CLE math. In the past we've used CLE language arts and reading as well. If you're seeking materials that foster independent work, CLE definitely fits the bill. The workbook text speaks directly to the student, and starting with CLE level 3, my daughter could sit down and complete the work almost completely independently.

[sunshineslp]

We use MP's Core Curriculum these days, however, we still use CLE math. In the past we've used CLE language arts and reading as well. If you're seeking materials that foster independent work, CLE definitely fits the bill. The workbook text speaks directly to the student, and starting with CLE level 3, my daughter could sit down and complete the work almost completely independently.

Do you think MP is also independent? Could you compare MP vs CLE at all?

 

This is a great question, thanks for asking! [emoji4]

[mysticmomma]

Maybe start by choosing one subject. I chose geography for my 5th grade dd in third. Then harcourt Health. Then I added in Mr Q science. I still do LA and Math with her. I don't do an art or music curriculum but so sometimes assign some history or appreciation. I expect her to spend 15 mins each day being creative.

[HomeAgain]

You might try rotating subjects.  A child needs practice days as well as instructional days.  About 4th/5th we started having a morning meeting where everything for the day was written out for the child.  He could pick things to do independently and have checked, and the rest we would do together.  He didn't need me to hover over math practice after new material was presented on Monday.  He needed to have it checked on Tues-Thurs and be tested on Friday.  Writing was more micromanaged because it was a trouble area, but reading comprehension could be done a variety of ways alone or together.  Latin was always together, science was half and half, depending on if it was notebooking or a lab day.

[Meadowlark]

We use MP's Core Curriculum these days, however, we still use CLE math. In the past we've used CLE language arts and reading as well. If you're seeking materials that foster independent work, CLE definitely fits the bill. The workbook text speaks directly to the student, and starting with CLE level 3, my daughter could sit down and complete the work almost completely independently.

I've looked at CLE numerous times. I even tried math, and didn't like it at all. CLE reading confuses me because while I LOVE the readers but don't necessarily think they need to be doing workbooks for reading at this age. Then there's the L.A., which I really want to love and make work for us. What I can't get over is that I'm not sure how well it teaches writing. It seems like I'd have to supplement anyway and that defeats the whole purpose. Sigh.

[Momto6inIN]

My 3rd grader does 1 page of Handwriting without Tears, reading to herself from her history and science reading book lists for 30 minutes, an XtraMath.org lesson, a page or 2 of Building Thinking Skills, 1 Mind Benders puzzle, and typing practice for about 20 minutes.

 

Math, history, science, grammar, and writing lessons we do together.

[Kiara.I]

Question:  Are you thinking that you need to give more independent work because you feel that's what your child needs, or because the symptom fits what Rosemond describes and therefore that must be the answer?

 

If you feel your child needs it, great.  It's certainly worth an attempt.

 

However, whining and resistance can happen for any number of reasons, and micromanaging isn't necessarily it.

My grade 3 right now, when handed independent work to do, mostly doesn't do it.  For us, independence is not a magic solution to whining!

[LMD]

My son is 8 and in 3rd. He does spelling, handwriting, some of maths and history mostly independently.

I say mostly, because he's 8 and easily distracted or will do a rushed job.

If you have listened to swb's lecture on teaching students to work independently, he's a 'beginning and end of lesson' kid. Often I'll get him started (teach whatever concept) and go through expectations and leave him to it.

 

With 4 kids, independence is necessary!

[Syllieann]

Math mammoth, x-tra math, reading, spelling, music ace.

For spelling we do Spalding-style word analysis, but next year we will do a workbook that should also be independent.

We will be doing Pentime cursive over summer-after going through the book, I expect it to be mostly independent too.

[momof4inco]

My soon-to-be third grade daughter does a bit on her own. I try to go over the math concepts with her, but I usually get, "Mom, I can do this by myself!" Next year, I plan on doing a morning meeting with everyone and then letting them do their thing. They come to me if they can't figure something out, or if I note on their assignment sheets that they need to do a particular assignment with me. I always look over their work at the end of the day, and I make sure to correct any mistakes with them.

 

I think it depends a lot on the child. If I tried to work on everything with my fiercely independent 8-year-old daughter, she would hate school. She tied her shoes, rode a bike, and took a shower without help A LOT earlier than her brothers. Everything has always been, "I can do it." With my boys, it was, "Can you do it for me?" I attribute that to her being a girl and the last child :)

 

What kind of personality is your daughter? How much would she like to do on her own?

[Wheres Toto]

My daughter does Math Mammoth, Handwriting without Tears, Evan Moor Spelling (except test at the end), Evan Moor Reading Comprehension, and any reading on her own.

 

Next year I'm switching things up and she'll actually have slightly LESS that she'll be doing independently. 

[MotherOfBoys]

We started in second grade with an all in one workbook from rainbow resource. He had to do any two page spread on his own before mom started school. I would check it and give a sticker according to how much was right. It gave him the confidence to be independent in other subjects. It helped that he was accelerated in most subjects so his grade level workbook was super easy. When the book was done then he was done. I didnt buy another or add in another subject. It was his responsibility to finish it but his choice how long it took. Meaning he had to do a spread a day but if he took it to evening church service or a doctors apt waiting room and did extra then he could clearly see the finish line coming sooner.

 

He will get the third grade book this fall and start again.

 

He now does math mammoth, geography, and eltl independently.

[kristin0713]

My fourth grader does spelling independently except for days one and five (Soaring with Spelling), grammar except when she needs help or it seems like she doesn't understand (Growing with Grammar), copywork, reading (literature), writing except for the editing phase (IEW key word outlines type of writing). For math, I always do the lesson with her and then let her work on problems unless she needs help which is often. However my 2nd grade mathy DS almost always does his math without me.

[Targhee]

My dd9 works from a checklist. We have a mentor meeting each week to review the last and plan for the next, putting plans on a checklist. The checklist includes which day, what pages or problems etc. She can work on these on her own:

 

Spelling (sequential spelling)

 

Memorization (memory work set up in a box)

 

Reading (to self, some of her content stuff)

 

Her personal study time (things she's engaged in that we plan ahead on like scratch programming, sewing, building scenes from books out of Legos, etc)

 

- Math (BA) is about 65% independent, with her coming to me when she's stuck. She also does practice on DreamBox and Prodigy independently.

[Ellie]

I would not expect little 8- and 9yo people to do very much Official School Work independently. I would expect some sort of parental interaction, followed by seatwork, but I would not expect long periods of independent work.

 

OTOH, I would expect little 8- and 9-yo people to play independently, and read to themselves independently, and be able to entertain themselves.

[arliemaria]

I know a lot of people use workboxes to create independent work system for children.  Maybe you could set something like that up, even if it is something fun in the boxes like a sketchbook for zentangles or Art for Kids Hub/Harmony Fine Arts Sketch Tuesday, a jump rope for pe, a journal or gratitude list, stationery for correspondence (penpal?).

[Another Lynn]

I would be careful about making skill subjects too independent.  I would look for ways to give freedom in content subjects.  You could do this with audio cds, a bookshelf or basket of books the child may choose from, "task" cards (Creekedge press or your own, which gives the child a choice over projects, etc.), art supply bin or closet, etc.  

[arliemaria]

Could someone link the article?  I'd really enjoy taking a look at it.

[HomeAgain]

I think this is the one being discussed. http://www.arcamax.com/homeandleisure/parents/johnrosemond/s-1832385
 

ETA: This is important to consider when considering independence:
"And so the 1950s classroom is the teaching model I recommend for homeschooling moms. Break the teaching day into subject modules of 30 to 60 minutes. Begin any given module by teaching for 10 to 15 minutes; then give a time-limited assignment; then leave the room. Come back when the time is up, grade the assignment, give whatever feedback and re-teaching is necessary, and then move into the next module."

 

You start every lesson with teaching/going over the work, before leaving the child to practice independently.  It's not about finding curriculum that isn't teacher-heavy, but finding ones with practice built in.

Edited May 23, 2016 by HomeAgain

[MinivanMom]

*snip*

 

You start every lesson with teaching/going over the work, before leaving the child to practice independently.  It's not about finding curriculum that isn't teacher-heavy, but finding ones with practice built in.

 

This is what I do with my 3rd & 4th graders. 

 

I spend 10 min teaching their Singapore math lesson, and then I send them off to spend 20-30 min completing the assignment independently. At the beginning of our writing block, I ask what they are working on that day, and then I send them off to work on it. They only come back to me if they need help revising or editing their work. I read their history and science aloud, but then I send them off to write a summary of what I read or to put an event on their timeline. 

 

I think the one thing my 3rd & 4th graders have done completely independently is cursive practice. I just check their work at the end.

[ElizaG]

I think this is the one being discussed. http://www.arcamax.com/homeandleisure/parents/johnrosemond/s-1832385

 

ETA: This is important to consider when considering independence:

"And so the 1950s classroom is the teaching model I recommend for homeschooling moms. Break the teaching day into subject modules of 30 to 60 minutes. Begin any given module by teaching for 10 to 15 minutes; then give a time-limited assignment; then leave the room. Come back when the time is up, grade the assignment, give whatever feedback and re-teaching is necessary, and then move into the next module."

Because the generation that was in 3rd grade in the 1950s US went on to be such a great cultural influence?  :huh:

 

I agree with what he's saying about independent work, but his supposed solution doesn't follow logically at all, unless we accept the unstated assumption that homeschooling should be modeled on some recent version of the public school classroom (and it's the parent's job to pick which one).

 

Rosemond was born in 1947, apparently.  I wonder if that has anything to do with his specific advice here.  :leaving:

[Laura Corin]

I think this is the one being discussed. http://www.arcamax.com/homeandleisure/parents/johnrosemond/s-1832385

 

ETA: This is important to consider when considering independence:

"And so the 1950s classroom is the teaching model I recommend for homeschooling moms. Break the teaching day into subject modules of 30 to 60 minutes. Begin any given module by teaching for 10 to 15 minutes; then give a time-limited assignment; then leave the room. Come back when the time is up, grade the assignment, give whatever feedback and re-teaching is necessary, and then move into the next module."

 

You start every lesson with teaching/going over the work, before leaving the child to practice independently.  It's not about finding curriculum that isn't teacher-heavy, but finding ones with practice built in.

 

So the teacher left the room, as did all the other pupils, in the 1950s classroom?  

 

I only understood after my children went to school to what I extent I had been compensating for the lack of positive peer pressure during home education: at school, all the pupils are doing the same thing and, in a well-managed classroom, most of the children will go with the flow.

[HomeAgain]

I think what he proposed was more reasonable than looking for entirely independent subjects. 

However, unless the original question was edited, he drastically inferred and gave a resolution based on his perception of what was happening.  Whether or not that was truly occurring has never been said.  3rd/4th is a notorious time for asserting one's self, not being a 'baby' and expected to think more independently.  It would be more likely that the behavior is a result of being 8 or 9, and not hovering at all.  (and goodness knows, with puberty around the corner, it will take another turn in that direction, too)

[hermione310]

Do you think MP is also independent? Could you compare MP vs CLE at all?

 

This is a great question, thanks for asking! [emoji4]

 

I'm writing this answer as DD is independently working on an MP composition lesson next to me. : ) 

 

Like many folks have mentioned, I agree that the ability to work independently varies from kid to kid. If I left the room as John Rosemond suggested (merrily skipping off to do housework, for example), I'd come back to find DD surrounded by craft supplies or stuffed animals with no progress on classwork. She won't work _completely_ independently. I can, however, get her started on certain tasks and have her complete them without much more involvement from me. 

 

I suggested CLE materials if working independently is the primary consideration. When we were using 4 different CLE subjects at once (Reading, Math, Language Arts, and Bible), DD would open her workbooks and the room would go silent while she plowed through them and I sat at an adjacent desk. I moved to MP when drawn to classical education. I sacrificed some independence, but gained a focus that more closely mirrored our desired trajectory for her education (Latin, classical literature, progymnasmata composition, etc.) As we've become more familiar with MP materials and have developed a daily rhythm for our classwork, DD's been working more independently. I wouldn't say she works completely independently, however, and I'm comfortable with that -- we gain so much through conversation about what she's working on, and my redirection if her approach goes too far afield from the task at hand. 

 

In short (although this response was anything but short ; ), I think CLE and MP both offer rigorous, well-designed materials. They're very different flavors, and we found MP to be a better fit for our family. We depart from MP only on math -- they offer Rod and Staff math as part of the core curriculum package, and we're continuing with CLE math. This is solely an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" move. It's working so we decided to have DD complete CLE Math through level 7. I've heard great things about Rod and Staff math as well and suspect it would have been a fine choice had we started out with R&S.

[sunshineslp]

I'm writing this answer as DD is independently working on an MP composition lesson next to me. : )

 

Like many folks have mentioned, I agree that the ability to work independently varies from kid to kid. If I left the room as John Rosemond suggested (merrily skipping off to do housework, for example), I'd come back to find DD surrounded by craft supplies or stuffed animals with no progress on classwork. She won't work _completely_ independently. I can, however, get her started on certain tasks and have her complete them without much more involvement from me.

 

I suggested CLE materials if working independently is the primary consideration. When we were using 4 different CLE subjects at once (Reading, Math, Language Arts, and Bible), DD would open her workbooks and the room would go silent while she plowed through them and I sat at an adjacent desk. I moved to MP when drawn to classical education. I sacrificed some independence, but gained a focus that more closely mirrored our desired trajectory for her education (Latin, classical literature, progymnasmata composition, etc.) As we've become more familiar with MP materials and have developed a daily rhythm for our classwork, DD's been working more independently. I wouldn't say she works completely independently, however, and I'm comfortable with that -- we gain so much through conversation about what she's working on, and my redirection if her approach goes too far afield from the task at hand.

 

In short (although this response was anything but short ; ), I think CLE and MP both offer rigorous, well-designed materials. They're very different flavors, and we found MP to be a better fit for our family. We depart from MP only on math -- they offer Rod and Staff math as part of the core curriculum package, and we're continuing with CLE math. This is solely an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" move. It's working so we decided to have DD complete CLE Math through level 7. I've heard great things about Rod and Staff math as well and suspect it would have been a fine choice had we started out with R&S.

Thanks! I'm trying to decide if CLE would be too... All inclusive? I like the degree of independence but I really only want it for grammar because we already have things that work for spelling, handwriting, writing... So is it silly to use CLE?

 

I have four kids close in age (3-8) so I NEED to be able to have SOME degree of practice they can do independently. Would MP work in a busy house with four kids or would it just make our day too long?

[hermione310]

Thanks! I'm trying to decide if CLE would be too... All inclusive? I like the degree of independence but I really only want it for grammar because we already have things that work for spelling, handwriting, writing... So is it silly to use CLE?

 

I have four kids close in age (3-8) so I NEED to be able to have SOME degree of practice they can do independently. Would MP work in a busy house with four kids or would it just make our day too long?

 

I understand the need to have work completed independently if you have multiple kids. I only have one, so I'm not the best person to answer this question. I can tell you, however, from reading the MP forum that there are many folks that use the entire MP core curriculum with 5, 6, 7, or more kids. I marvel at your ability to homeschool 4 kids with any curriculum! : ) You might want to post your question on the MP K-8 site (http://forum.memoriapress.com/forumdisplay.php?5-K-8-Curriculum-Board) and see what responses you get. The forum is pretty active. 

[Meadowlark]

I'll be folding in a Kinder every year for the next 3 years, so I'm freaking out a bit :-) I KNOW how intensive those K-2 years are with laying foundations in math and reading, so I NEED to have some independence with my 2 older boys.

 

Problem is, I'm not sure how to do it. To me, I can't really find subjects that can be done independently. Here's just an example of what I use or plan on using: 

 

BJU math-teacher teaches new concept, child does 1 page with my oversight and the other independent. So while there is *some* independence, I'm still there supervising, helping, etc. Love this, want to stick with it. I'm not mathy and need to teach it to get it.

 

Mystery Science-Mostly teacher led from what I can tell, along with the computer (thank goodness)

 

History-haven't chosen yet, but anticipate mapwork, notebooking, read aloud...all faciliated by me.

 

English-maybe CLE LA...but how do they LEARN the skills that they are constantly spiraling? I have to teach them those at some point right?

 

Reading-Independent as of now, considering CLE

 

Spelling-AAR, love this and don't want to stray. Older child did R & S and it was fine, but looking for something new. Maybe CLE? Seems light after R &S though.

 

So, get my drift? Maybe you all have waaay more energy than I, but I anticipate me teaching for about 6 hours straight (given a few breaks) for most of every.single.day. I'm tired and haven't even started yet! 

[lea1]

My two sons are just finishing 4th grade and they work fairly independently, although I am always nearby, reading, folding laundry, fixing something to eat or cleaning up the kitchen, etc.  I walk in and out of the room but if I stayed gone very long they would start horsing around. 

 

We start out with together work.  I read aloud from the Bible, Victor Journey Through the Bible and a classic novel.  Then it just depends on the day.  We use MUS, Latina Christiana and IEW so if it is a day to watch a DVD lesson, then we do that next.  I try to time the lessons so we are only watching one a day though.  We also do their map work and timeline work together for now but I believe they will become more independent with this as we move forward.

 

After that, it is time for them to do their independent work.  This includes their math lesson, IEW writing, grammar (Fix It! from IEW - sometimes I have to spend 5 minutes explaining it on Mondays), spelling, typing, reading (including reading for science and labeling/coloring a sketch (we do experiments together), reading a fun book from my preselected bookshelf of books to read to self, an assigned reading from literature that goes along with our history studies as per WTM), their Latin lesson, practicing math facts using wrap ups and practicing piano.

 

We consider all of these independent subjects, although I am nearby and they will ask for help when they need to, such as if they get stuck trying to find a good word to fit a sentence when they are writing or if they need some help remembering how to solve a problem in math. Sometimes they don't understand what is being asked in Latin or spelling but most of their questions are pretty easy and quick to answer.   I also have to redirect once in a while but they do fairly well at staying on task these days.  They have a checklist and it really helps drive them.  They like to see things checked off that list.  Also, they are not allowed to work on the same subject at the same time because one tends to finish quickly. though not as thorough, while the other is slower and more careful with his work.  If I let them work on the same subject at the same time, the slower one ends up feeling very defeated.  Everything is a competition.  This system has been working well for us since sometime in 3rd grade.

 

They were also doing their history independently, reading from an encyclopedia and writing history facts, but we were not enjoying that as much as we used to enjoy SOTW.  So I have just ordered Biblioplan and am looking forward to getting it and seeing how we can use it to enjoy history more like we used to with SOTW.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Lea in OK

[Guest]

Mine do CLE independently. And the guy who gave the advice was he a homeschooled or had kids cause some kids do that no matter what!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Porridge]

We have a work box system. I don't set out new assignments daily or even weekly. It's more for helping my child organize her school books so she can find everything easily. I print s daily checklist of tasks for her (Scholaric).

 

Journal

Handwriting

Vocabulary- wordly wise

Chinese

Reading

Piano

 

Grammar is FLL but we will switch to RS soon, as she can easily do this on her own.

 

Math she does mostly on her own. I sit down with her whenever s new concept is introduced, about 1-2x/week. I'm also available to answer questions. We use Beast Academy right now.

 

I will say that while my DD at age 7 can operate very independently, I don't think the same will be true of my DS until a later stage. Personality /temperament / learning style differences

Edited May 24, 2016 by JHLWTM

[sunshineslp]

Do you really see R&S as independent? I guess for a kid who doesn't mind all that writing

 

 

Homeschooling mama of 4... Preschool 3, preschool 4, 1st, and 2nd:)

[...................]

Kid A: Competent Carl, very self motivated but needs structure and laid back, enjoys conversation

 

KId B: artsy, ENFP, sociable Sue, motivated by love, ideas and creativity

 

At that age:

After the initial lesson both my kids bave been able to be very independent with math.

 

Handwriting (assuming they learned cursive already)

 

Grammar workbook worked for kid A but NOT Kid B - kid B never became independent in this subject more because of her difficulty with understanding it.

 

Writing really can't and should not be independent at this age.

 

Literature - some together some independent depending what your goals are - I chose to just let them read well chosen books and not much media time or none makes that Happen

 

Generally speaking history does not lend itself well to independence at that age and is such a joy to teach, so that's together with mom here all the way till 8th or 9th grade

 

Hope that helps !

[Haiku]

I'll state right up front that I think John Rosemond gives people terrible advice. His understanding of adoption issues, in particular, is extremely poor and his advice is damaging. He's on old-skool, "show them who's boss" type, and his "solutions" are often simplistic at best.

That said, I don't think whining is solved by sending your 8 year old off to do sciool alone. Lots of kids whine, and I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with a need for independence. I think saying "Go do this by yourself" is a form of "tough love" that's supposed to make the parent feel better.

My dd was very whiny at 8. She cried at the drop of a hat at 9. At 10 she was fine. Eight is a hard age for kids. Pushing them away is not what they need.

I would start with talking with your kids about what they think would help.

Edited May 24, 2016 by TaraTheLiberator

[Haiku]

"And so the 1950s classroom is the teaching model I recommend for homeschooling moms. Break the teaching day into subject modules of 30 to 60 minutes. Begin any given module by teaching for 10 to 15 minutes; then give a time-limited assignment; then leave the room. Come back when the time is up, grade the assignment, give whatever feedback and re-teaching is necessary, and then move into the next module."

 

Sounds like school-at-home, which is fine for some people but yet another example of Rosemond's simplistic, one-size solutions.