Christian Content about Wicca & Teenager

[Chris in VA]

Trying to be gentle--I may not say this very well, but I'm trying.

 

the constant bickering over whose God is better, whose lifestyle is the right/righteous one,

 

But we can't all be right, can we? For the Christian, there is one way. If there were any other way but thru Christ, we don't believe He would have come.

 

That's not to say that those who do not agree should be disrespected. It is part of Christianity to be respectful.

I'm not sure how to say this--I hate offending others, but what I believe about God is going to offend someone. I think there must be some way of talking about differences while still being kind. Please forgive me if I don't do that well.

[gamommy]

Trying to be gentle--I may not say this very well, but I'm trying.

 

 

 

But we can't all be right, can we? For the Christian, there is one way. If there were any other way but thru Christ, we don't believe He would have come.

 

That's not to say that those who do not agree should be disrespected. It is part of Christianity to be respectful.

I'm not sure how to say this--I hate offending others, but what I believe about God is going to offend someone. I think there must be some way of talking about differences while still being kind. Please forgive me if I don't do that well.

 

That was very well said. I agree completely.

[Chris in VA]

Thank you, gamommy. One of my character flaws is a high need for approval, and a fear of rejection. I absolutely hate to be out of fellowship with anyone. I guess for each flaw, there is a bright side. I also don't want my words to offend, because I hate hurting people.

[RoughCollie]

Tara, I appreciate your prayers and your concerns.

 

We did and do all the things you listed. I look at it as giving the children a solid foundation in our faith. But at some point, kids ask questions and think for themselves. They want to make their own choices about their faith and to know that they do not believe as they do merely because they have been brainwashed by their parents.

 

I went through that, and my faith is much stronger as a result.

 

The media does not have much effect on my children. They have never watched a network television show, and they don't watch much television except for factual shows about history and science and, of course, every Red Sox game.

 

I don't know of any t.v. shows about families that are witches, except for Bewitched.

 

We are friends with some families and individuals who are not Christians. In the mix are Buddhists, Jews, Moslems, atheists, and now, Wiccans. I respect their beliefs and I love to find out more about them. I accept these folks as they are, and I don't try to change them. They are some of the nicest, kindest people I have ever met, as are some Christians. We are fortunate to know these people -- they add strong, vibrant, loving threads to the fabrics of our lives.

 

I would much prefer that my children decide to be lifelong Christians, and if I were in control and they were robots, they would be. They do have free will and if they decide not to be Christians, so be it. My place as their parent is to pray for them and to help them find the answers to their questions as much as I can and as much as they will let me.

 

RC

 

 

 

 

 

 

I read your post, trying to wonder if my children one day would have that response...at this point I would be leaning on the side of no...let me tell you why.

 

Do all these things out of LOVE not out of a sense of failing pride that your son has chosen to turn his back on your faith.

Tara

[hsmamainva]

We are friends with some families and individuals who are not Christians. In the mix are Buddhists, Jews, Moslems, atheists, and now, Wiccans. I respect their beliefs and I love to find out more about them. I accept these folks as they are, and I don't try to change them. They are some of the nicest, kindest people I have ever met, as are some Christians. We are fortunate to know these people -- they add strong, vibrant, loving threads to the fabrics of our lives.

 

I would much prefer that my children decide to be lifelong Christians, and if I were in control and they were robots, they would be. They do have free will and if they decide not to be Christians, so be it. My place as their parent is to pray for them and to help them find the answers to their questions as much as I can and as much as they will let me.

 

RC

 

What an awesome post!! I love to read about other moms who respect their children as individuals, first and foremost -- I don't feel so alone when I do!

 

:thumbup:

 

(I'm enjoying reading this thread...even though I haven't posted in it)

[Jenny in Atl]

Trying to be gentle--I may not say this very well, but I'm trying.

 

 

 

But we can't all be right, can we? For the Christian, there is one way. If there were any other way but thru Christ, we don't believe He would have come.

 

That's not to say that those who do not agree should be disrespected. It is part of Christianity to be respectful.

I'm not sure how to say this--I hate offending others, but what I believe about God is going to offend someone. I think there must be some way of talking about differences while still being kind. Please forgive me if I don't do that well.

 

Exactly my point. Don't Muslims also believe they know the way (the right way and that you are a non-believer), as well as Jews, etc? You all think your way is right and all others are wrong, even if they live their lives exactly as you (morally, ethically, etc). It's a no win situation. Even if you got everyone in the world to become Christian, there would be squabbling over the details. Which denomination is right in their interpretations of the Bible. It will never end, until of course we either blow each other up, or "God" ends it, or our sun finally poops out. I wonder which will come first. ;)

[RoughCollie]

But we can't all be right, can we? For the Christian, there is one way. If there were any other way but thru Christ, we don't believe He would have come.

 

I think that God handles the situation in ways we do not know about and that it is not as cut-and-dried as many believe. For example, what if a person is given another chance to accept Jesus as their Savior after they die? There is not one person alive on this planet who can know for sure whether that, or something else, happens. If they think they do know, they are deluding themselves, because they have not died.

 

My son, who has since decided not be a Wiccan, told me that he had a real problem believing that so many people would be consigned to the fires of hell after they died. He didn't think a loving God would do that.

 

I agree with him. I think hell is eternal separation from God, not a literal lake of fire. I also think that God has a way of making sure that most people do not live in eternal separation from Him or, if they do, it is by their own free will choice. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. It does not matter since it is up to God, not me.

Edited October 5, 2008 by RoughCollie

[RoughCollie]

The sad part is that none of this is necessary.

 

Exactly my point. Don't Muslims also believe they know the way (the right way and that you are a non-believer), as well as Jews, etc? You all think your way is right and all others are wrong, even if they live their lives exactly as you (morally, ethically, etc). It's a no win situation. Even if you got everyone in the world to become Christian, there would be squabbling over the details. Which denomination is right in their interpretations of the Bible. It will never end, until of course we either blow each other up, or "God" ends it, or our sun finally poops out. I wonder which will come first. ;)

[tibbyl]

Exactly my point. Don't Muslims also believe they know the way (the right way and that you are a non-believer), as well as Jews, etc? You all think your way is right and all others are wrong, even if they live their lives exactly as you (morally, ethically, etc). It's a no win situation. Even if you got everyone in the world to become Christian, there would be squabbling over the details. Which denomination is right in their interpretations of the Bible. It will never end, until of course we either blow each other up, or "God" ends it, or our sun finally poops out. I wonder which will come first. ;)

 

Exactly. And we witness the dueling over the details here often.

 

Exclusivist religions aid and abet a us v. them paradigm. How thoroughly one embraces this, is, I suppose, a matter of the individual's psychological makeup.

[nmoira]

 

Exactly my point. Don't Muslims also believe they know the way (the right way and that you are a non-believer), as well as Jews, etc? You all think your way is right and all others are wrong, even if they live their lives exactly as you (morally, ethically, etc). It's a no win situation. Even if you got everyone in the world to become Christian, there would be squabbling over the details. Which denomination is right in their interpretations of the Bible. It will never end, until of course we either blow each other up, or "God" ends it, or our sun finally poops out. I wonder which will come first. ;)

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, because we see this played out throughout history, and still see it today. However, this offshoot of the conversation started because of the word "good." However, I'm not aware of anything in the Bible that says non-believers can't be good people -- not saved perhaps (unless it's a coattail situation) or not righteous. Am I mistaken?

[Mama Lynx]

Trying to be gentle--I may not say this very well, but I'm trying.

 

 

 

But we can't all be right, can we? For the Christian, there is one way. If there were any other way but thru Christ, we don't believe He would have come.

 

That's not to say that those who do not agree should be disrespected. It is part of Christianity to be respectful.

I'm not sure how to say this--I hate offending others, but what I believe about God is going to offend someone. I think there must be some way of talking about differences while still being kind. Please forgive me if I don't do that well.

 

I understand that about Christians. If you didn't think there was only one way, you wouldn't be Christian. I can understand that, and respect it to a degree. However, to strongly imply that a family cannot be good unless they are Christian - the post I was responding to was simply disrespectful. You may disagree with my religion, but it's prejudice and folly to say that because we do not have the same belief, we are not good people.

 

So yes, there is a way of talking about differences while being kind, and the poster I was responding to didn't do it.

[Joanne]

RC,

 

I already enjoyed your posts, perspective and opinions. But reading this thread has brought my respect for you as a person, mom and Christian to an even higher regard.

 

I am very impressed with the way you are handling this!

 

The only thing I'd add, if you are authentically able, is to let him know you "get" or "understand" the search for a spiritual fit. And I'd like to remind you, Christian mom to Christian mom that he is searching for *some* spiritual meaning, design, understanding and I think that is a very, very good sign.

 

This came up today in SS class (I was leading a class on spirituality vs. religion). I posited a few scenarios to the class, whom I had divided into "representing religious" or "representing spiritual". One of the scenarios was a child who wanted to be a Wiccan.

 

A mom (lifelong Presbyterian) had recently gone through this with her son. One of the interesting things that he had done was ask *her* to get him "some red candles". This is a late teen; he could have purchased his own red candles, you know? I see the same passive asking for your input in your family. It's very cool and encouraging that you've cultivated a family dynamic that he can be open with you, in a safe environment, with something he knows does not make you entirely comfortable.

 

I pursued earth based spirituality as an adult; I *get* the wondering. I think, as a teen, its more seductive and possibly risky because the motivation is mingled with a desire to be different than an actual embrace of the principles behind Wicca - but I get the desire to broaden spiritual scope.

[Guest janainaz]

Rough collie,

 

I haven't read out all the posts, but I hope to offer you some perspective...

 

Ultimately, the decision to accept Christ and choose to follow Him is your child's. I think we as parents, however, can do everything in our power to reflect our own personal relationship with God in a very clear and present manner. I read your post, trying to wonder if my children one day would have that response...at this point I would be leaning on the side of no...let me tell you why..my children heartfully and often (atleast 4-5x a week) will make a comment or ask me to help them pray for this or that...they still are not at that point where I see them daily on their own doing a devotional, but I see them speaking to God and it's becoming more and more natural for them...what has our family done?

 

Some of these things will sound silly, but I'm just listing the ones that have had the most impact.

 

1. When they were young we went through 20 4-CD sets of Adventures in Odyssey...heck it even strengthened my own faith...but with media and programming today, the kids are barraged with 'good' families that are either witches, have no mention of God in their functioning family, or worse, they present a egocentric view of life. These CD's we listened to on the way to the store, vacations, they begged for them and we all began to see that the characters were just as flawed as us but that they RELIED on God..it really helped encourage us..your boys may be too old for these, but my 13 year old still loves to listen to them..and I loved them.

 

2. We read the Bible as a family at breakfast each morning...this is really more recent as having younger children we never seemed to all be at the table...one in the floor, one sleeping in...etc. but my kids are 9-13 now and I was inspired by Corrie Ten Boom's relating how her father always read the Bible..my children are the first to put the Bible on the table at 6:45 in the morning (we also made a pact that we'd get up earlier to make sure we had breakfast together because dh is working 2 jobs (2 mortgages) and dinner together is almost impossible. Then we discuss the Bible...with your boys you might have to make a rule that you discuss it from the heart and out of respect, because an atheist is likely to want to poke holes..but you will lovingly take his thoughts but also guide him if you notice him becoming antagonistic..your home is a Christian home and if he lives with you he must live by your rules..he doesn't have to agree with the Bible reading, but out of respect for your faith, he should be willing to listen...think back, how many times have you read the Bible together as a family? It is the best gift given to us outside Christ's sacrifice...but yet, we'll turn to a newly published book for guidance and not to the Bible?

 

3. Take every bad flaw in yourself and claim it...when I am too short with the kids or out of line..or I gossip on the phone...or I get upset at a driver on the road..I take that time to tell my kids, "Hey, I was wrong, I need to ask forgiveness of you for acting this way..." Hide those scriptures in your heart...many a time when my kids are arguing or putting their selfish side first above the love for one another, I'll pull out verses (Ephesians 4:32, Romans 12:10 etc.)...and I'll AGREE with them that it is HARD to be like Christ, but because it's hard, should we just not try? Maybe now is a time for your kids to watch "A passion for Christ"..do it as a family....but pre empt it with your concern for your family, your failings as a parent to show them God's mercy and grace..because if they truly understood God's mercy and grace, there would be no denying it..There's that verse, raise your children up in the way they should go...we have TOO many forces around us that are pulling our kids away, our Christian homes should be a safe haven of encouragement and diligence....

 

4. We pray at EVERY meal, at McDonald's, at Subway, at breakfast, at a friends house...and if my husband or I are in a rush and we DO forget, my kids will quickly remind me that we need to pray...it's about submitting your life to God in all things, not just saying we're Christians, but by committing even the mundane areas of our life like eating a meal which we do so often..to Him...

 

5. We pray as a family, we've been praying for over a year for our other house to sell...my kids will come to me and tell me that they've been praying on their own, even waking up and kneeling for weeks waiting for an answer...I sit and have a discussion with them and tell them it will happen and look at all that has come about because our house has not sold...

a. We ARE praying more as a family

b. God has brought people into our lives that we would never have met otherwise...the lady who runs a horse ministry and will help us set up our ministry (our realtor introduced us)...another gal who wants to help our rescue horse become a safe ride for kids (also a referral from the realtor)..our farrier who has brought so much knowledge and wisdom into our lives to help us create a place for abused children one day...the list goes on and on...but we are amazed and while it has been tough for my husband, we've been blessed that his company (main job) allows him to telecommute from home 1-2 days a week..so God knew we missed him at dinners but now we get to have him for lunch and throughout our day...and he's still earning what we need...be AWARE of how challenges can lead to blessings.

 

Do all these things out of LOVE not out of a sense of failing pride that your son has chosen to turn his back on your faith...you are not in this alone, SEEK GOD and his Hand will help you on this journey...HE knows your heart, and perhaps this is a blessing because it will bring YOU closer to God and as a result the kids will see a change in how you respond....I think part of the 'inquisition' of sorts you had with him was more out of a respect issue instead of a heart issue...I can easily see how you would feel let down by him even wanting to seek this out..but it's not about how WE feel about it, it's about genuinely wanting him to KNOW who God is and seeing/feeling/experiencing His active role in our life.

 

As a teen, we want proof sometimes, we don't have the eyes/ears/perceptions to convince ourselves that God is alive...but if you just ask him to simply pray to God to show Him to your son...and tell your son that's all you want right now, just for your son to ask God to show Himself to your son...it may be as simple as a kind gesture from some of his peers, a new person coming into his life with faith...God prepares so much in our paths...and when we're in a valley He lifts us up through others and events...believe that God will help you in this.

 

Praying for you and your three sons!!

 

Tara

 

 

I know parents who have done ALL the right things in leading their kids to Christ - well, at least all the right things in their own eyes. Many many kids walk away from the Christian faith when they become teens. In my circumstance, I was raised Catholic and then my mother at some point went another direction - got really into astrology and the metaphysical. My sister started reading tarot cards and was into that as well. When I was in my early 20's, I began to question what I believed - I was uncertain, but in a GOOD way. God is the one who chooses us and opens our eyes. It is kind of a mystery in the sense that some people think and believe they come to Christ on their OWN accord and this is not so. When God forms us, He knows who is his child. Once a child, always a child even before we are aware of it. He is very near to those who belong to Him. So, going on and on about how you, as a parent, teach your kids by praying, etc. - well, that is a wonderful thing, but somehow that puts it back into human effort.

 

I have many discussions with my son about God, we read our Bible and I love my sons whole-heartedly. I do believe in the scripture about raising your kids up in the way they should go and they will not depart. However, what does this say about kids who are NOT raised up in the way they should go?????? Where is God in that? This is not human effort, this is God and the hair on the back of my neck raises when I hear someone take their salvation into their own hands - as if it is done by their OWN doing. It is God who chooses us, that must never be forgotten. So, this dear lady concerned for her son can rest assured that God is a big and powerful God and very near her son. I do believe that we, as parents, play a big role in our kids coming to God - but that also comes from presenting a God that is unlike an angry parent, a God that has unconditional love and the picture of the father in the story of the prodigal son. That story shows a picture of God himself. The scripture about God leaving the 99 sheep to go after the 1 that has gone astray is also another picture of the depth of God's love. However, Christianity today often introduces an angry God, ready to pounce on every wrong move, always watching with an angry eyebrow up and it has been taken back to the law. So, yes, parents who are introducing their childrent to this God are definitely at risk of having children who walk away from the faith and I believe they are partially responsible and to blame. But..........as children of God - He can still bring them back.

 

To the mother that wrote this: remember the prodigal son story! The father LET the son go, spend all his inheritance, get on the wrong path and he waited for him with open arms and welcomed him home with a party. There is much to think about in that scripture. Part of keeping them NEAR is to let them go. He'll figure it out.

[Guest janainaz]

I think that God handles the situation in ways we do not know about and that it is not as cut-and-dried as many believe. For example, what if a person is given another chance to accept Jesus as their Savior after they die? There is not one person alive on this planet who can know for sure whether that, or something else, happens. If they think they do know, they are deluding themselves, because they have not died.

My son, who has since decided not be a Wiccan, told me that he had a real problem believing that so many people would be consigned to the fires of hell after they died. He didn't think a loving God would do that.

 

I agree with him. I think hell is eternal separation from God, not a literal lake of fire. I also think that God has a way of making sure that most people do not live in eternal separation from Him or, if they do, it is by their own free will choice. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. It does not matter since it is up to God, not me.

 

 

I love the way you think. By the way, my husband did a biblical study on hell (I have a link to it if you are interested). Hell was actually "Gehenna" and there is no eternal torment, or lake of fire. For the unbeliever, they simply perish - cease to exist altogether. I know there are MANY Christians out there and people of other faiths that are so turned off of God because of what has been presented. A God that torments for all of eternity. There are scriptures that specifically talk about the lake of fire and eternal torment, but .......... you have to study the word of Gehenna and find out what Jesus was really talking about. It is rather complex. (I am pasting the link to the article my husband wrote - this is his website) http://www.holytriage.info/index.php?/archives/435-Hell-is-the-Biggest-Lie-told-by-a-Majority-of-Churches.html

 

 

When I posted earlier, I mentioned that I do not claim to have God all figured out. I am still learning and it baffles my mind at people of other faiths who have truly understood what it means to LOVE - why they would not be with God. I mean in the terms of people who knew how to love unconditionally and people who are in touch with the grace and mercy of God through how they live their lives. I often wonder if there are people who do know the spirit of Christ and yet are unaware. Not sure if that makes sense. There are Christians who I believe would be upset or angry that a Muslim would be in heaven, or a homosexual. I believe in God's sovereignty and I believe that he knows the story behind every person he creates. I would WANT to believe there is a chance even after death for a person to come to Christ. I don't know if there is, but I can hope for it.

Edited October 5, 2008 by janainaz

[emeraldjoy]

JANAINAZ

I put that link to your husbands site on my favorites list; thanks for it. I will plow through it when I have moments.

My husband and I attended a bible study on the same theme. FASCINATING, to say the least. I felt 'cheated on' having been raised in a church that had a hell believing, fear as a control tactic philosophy.

 

I will never forget in the study, when a member of the group asked; "Do you really think Jesus wants us to believe in him because we don't want to go to hell??" What sort of real relationship would that be?

 

Thanks for the link.

e

[Guest janainaz]

JANAINAZ

I put that link to your husbands site on my favorites list; thanks for it. I will plow through it when I have moments.

My husband and I attended a bible study on the same theme. FASCINATING, to say the least. I felt 'cheated on' having been raised in a church that had a hell believing, fear as a control tactic philosophy.

 

I will never forget in the study, when a member of the group asked; "Do you really think Jesus wants us to believe in him because we don't want to go to hell??" What sort of real relationship would that be?

 

Thanks for the link.

e

 

 

Great! I am interested in seeing how people respond to that. Many Christians feel safe in what they have been raised with that to QUESTION what they are reading feels frightening. I truly understand. I always play the devils advocate with my husband because he studies everything and brings random topics to the table that send me in a whirlwind. Yet, he backs up his words with the Bible and .....the truth we hold in our hearts through the Holy Spirit attests to these things as well. I think we have also learned not to trust our hearts - because we are taught they are wicked - yet it is ironic how we have also been given the Holy Spirit and the Bible says God's laws are written on our hearts.

[ma23peas]

While I don't deny the general unwholesomeness of media barrage ... why put the word "good" in quotes? It comes off as sounding as if you're saying that families who are witches, or who have no mention of God (capital G) in their functioning family, are not good families.

 

Is that what you believe?

 

Sorry, Mamalynx, just now getting back to the thread...in my statement I should have said "good Christian families" the audience I was speaking to was the original poster and she claimed her family was a Christian and her family was struggling...I was pointing out that I can see why they would be struggling..as a Christian family we are not of this world..we are asked to live in it and bring His light to all...however, society is contrary to this view, the media portrays happy loving families on TV with no influence of faith (there are some that do, but not many)..so it wrongly influences a child into thinking "They're all okay, they're 'nice' people, why do I need Christ?" The Romans were awfully good people for the most part as well, but the majority of them worshipped many Gods when Christianity began to unfold...but though there are 'good' people that does not mean we that OUR mission has changed, we are commanded to love one another and be fishers of men...ALL men, not just the flagrant sinners...but ALL men.

 

And, it all comes down to your definition of 'good'...it is not if it is good as much as if it is 'right'...we long for salvation for EVERY man...we can't harness that desire.

 

Tara

[Jenny in Florida]

Yes I am, when told that what I may or may not believe is little different from Wicca, I do find it insulting.

 

Huston Smith, a well known and greatly respected scholar of comparative religion (and a practicing Methodist), says something about this that I just love. I can't find the exact quote, but he says that, essentially, all the major faith traditions of the world are like arrows shot into the sky. They are all aiming at the same truths and simply take different paths to get there.

 

That makes a whole lot more sense to me than pretty much anything else I've ever learned about religion, because, for me, the only god worth worshiping is one who would love and understand humans in all their diversity.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Jenny in Florida

[Carol in Cal.]

It is quite possible to both be an atheist and to be in awe and admiration of the beauty and mystery of nature.

 

Yes, absolutely. I know and respect that.

 

However, my point was that deep in my Christian faith is a love for nature and a reverence for the Creator based on nature's beauty and awesomeness, which some Wiccans teach is actually antithetical to Christianity.

[AuntieM]

This would fall on the "Christian apologetics" side. It's How to Be Your Own Selfish Pig by Susan Schaeffer Macauley. Excellent reading! Great encouragement about why every one of us needs to think deeply about what we believe. It is written to appeal to young adults. I hope it may be helpful to your son. I admire the way you are handling this with him.

Edited October 5, 2008 by AuntieM

[Daisy]

Actually, the Christian who has a Biblical Worldview believes that NONE of us is good...

 

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12

 

It is faith in the death and resurrection of Christ that imputes to us righteousness. Of ourselves, we can do no good thing. The Christian simply believes that Christ has paid the price for his sin and out of the gratitude of his heart lives the rest of his life trying to follow Christ.

 

This is a basic difference in worldview and why many Christians struggle through Pysch 101. The Christian believes man is, by his nature, sinful/bad/evil. Many in our world today believe the complete opposite; that man is, by his nature, good.

 

The Christian believes that even good actions they committed prior to conversion were generally done out of some selfish motive. That until we are living our lives to glorify God, we are living our lives to glorify ourselves.

 

I cannot speak to the Wiccan issue. My sister was involved in Wicca for a while and I know my parents (pastor's family) struggled mightly in how to address the issue. Nearly 15 years later now, I know my sister is very glad to be out of that and regrets her involvement.

[LilyK]

remember the prodigal son story! The father LET the son go, spend all his inheritance, get on the wrong path and he waited for him with open arms and welcomed him home with a party. There is much to think about in that scripture. Part of keeping them NEAR is to let them go. He'll figure it out

.

 

So true! I am always encouraged by Franklin Grahame's story. I believe he strayed very far from the teachings of his parents and the Bible before he returned to the faith that I am sure his father ,no doubt, so lovingly instilled in him. Of course the rest is history. For those non-Christians, Franklin Graham is the leader and founder of Samaritan's Purse.

[tibbyl]

.

 

So true! I am always encouraged by Franklin Grahame's story. I believe he strayed very far from the teachings of his parents and the Bible before he returned to the faith that I am sure his father ,no doubt, so lovingly instilled in him. Of course the rest is history. For those non-Christians, Franklin Graham is the leader and founder of Samaritan's Purse.

 

I find it pretty predictable that he would return to his father's televangelist empire and related ministries. Where else in real world could he acquire a prestigious sinecure with powerful political connections, automatic respect and eager virtually-unquestioning financial support from devoted followers? Who wouldn't jump at that cushy a deal after sowing their wild oats in rebellion?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I find it pretty predictable that he would return to his father's televangelist empire and related ministries. Where else in real world could he acquire a prestigious sinecure with powerful political connections, automatic respect and eager virtually-unquestioning financial support from devoted followers? Who wouldn't jump at that cushy a deal after sowing their wild oats in rebellion?

 

Frank Schaeffer did not, and it cost him. He's quite ok with that, though. Cognitive dissonance is not good for the soul. It inexorably rips it up, bit by tiny bit.

 

"For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?"

[*anj*]

Jean,

This was an excellent post. This is one of the times that I really miss the rep system because I'd like to show you how much I appreciate your words.

 

I think you're right. The human soul hungers for beauty and for a soaking in of the natural world around us. I remember when my whole perspective on the world's beauty changed. I was 19 and I was becoming aware of God in a unique way. I was visiting an aquarium and I was just blown away by all that God had created. I had seen many of these creatures before, but just saw them as interesting and pretty. But now I saw them as beings created, designed by God and I grew to appreciate them all the more.

 

And I agree that for various and sundry reasons Christians have sort of stifled that innate feeling of awe. And especially we Protestants have safely limited our fascination with things like the night sky and the stars, etc. But our ancestors, and those who put pen to paper to form our Bible, knew that sky all too well. They knew how to read those stars, and the wind, and the sun. They knew that the heavens are telling the Glory of God. They wrote "Praise Him, sun and moon. Praise Him stars of heaven." "Let everything that lives and that breathes give praise to the Lord."

 

We've sort of thrown the baby out with the dishwater, and that's unfortunate.

 

 

There are things that belong to other religions that I think we as Christians have lost or have shoved aside for many reasons. Let me give you some examples:

 

I love the night sky. I love the celebration of the seasons. I would like to share my delight in knowing that this is equinox or solstice by adding this to the days of the years that are special. But if I have this type of celebration, I will have people question me whether this is "appropriate" because these are Wiccan holidays, and we certainly would not want to be mimicking their religious practices. (Jean wrinkles her nose up here.)

 

I think that there are times in our search for Bible-believing faith, we have lost the mystery of God that is in his creation. We have science to explain all that we know about nature, and we have not allowed ourselves to see nature as a mystery--a step into the mystical (Webster's Dict: inducing a feeling of awe or wonder)--of the leaves turning red and orange, of the red in the sunset, of the movement of the stars across the skies, of the animals sleeping in their dens, of whisper of the wind. Years ago, these things were worshiped; they were not scientifically understood. In our desire to flee from superstitions we have erased the good and the playful, we've dropped the celebration of life, the beauty of creation.

 

Well, if you are following this line of thinking and if I am making my thoughts clear, perhaps this MIGHT be some of what is drawing your son to Wiccan beliefs--is there something that his friend's family is doing/celebrating/sharing that is "missing" in your home and faith that might just be a basic yearning in his soul?

 

I weary of the cut-and-dried faith of many around me. They seem to have a formula that explains faith, forgiveness, the cross, and the end times. Nature is studied and dissected scientifically. Yes, the trees may not be spirits, but why are they not vibrant life that gives us clues to The One Who Made Them? Why can't we walk into the woods and listen to the wind in hopes to "hear" the breath of God?

 

OTOH, perhaps this has nothing to do with your son. I just saw what you had written and decided this would be a good forum to put my thoughts into print.

 

FWIW,

Jean (who wishes that her spell check had not disappeared when she moved from Mozilla to Internet Explorer!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[LilyK]

I find it pretty predictable that he would return to his father's televangelist empire and related ministries. Where else in real world could he acquire a prestigious sinecure with powerful political connections, automatic respect and eager virtually-unquestioning financial support from devoted followers? Who wouldn't jump at that cushy a deal after sowing their wild oats in rebellion?

__________________

 

 

 

I believe that this response is totally unhelpful and possibly even hurtful to the OP, who is obviously, like myself, is a Christian. Therefore, if you have any reasons of substance to believe that Franklin Graham returned to the faith of his upbringing for easy power and money, as you seem to suggest, please pm me, or may I suggest start a new thread. I would be interested in enlightenment. In the meantime, I find it harsh that you would attack what I meant to be words of encouragement to a parent in a dilemma,

[moreschool]

My wife and our children regularly attend Sunday services, contribute just short of tithing and encourage our children to take part in religious activities as they see fit. Our children seem to be well rounded, religious, have lots of fun and receive their share of honors. They are allowed to use computers, select their own reading material from the book store and the libraries without our hovering over them as if the devil was going to jump out at them in chapter three or appear on a monitor through inadvertently clicking onto the wrong WWW cite. We, in effect, are raising them so that they can pass judgement in the real world when they exit home schooling and enter middle school.

 

The above having been said, we strive not to wear our religion on our sleeves nor shove our beliefs down the ear canal and into the eye balls of those who cross our paths. We give our children the opportunity of selecting their own reading matter, friends and activities without being critical of them should they choose something that doesn't fit into what we would feel less risky or overly narrow. They have done real well without having to follow the guidelines of religious zealots that float around with their religion on their sleeves.

 

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

[Jenn in Mo]

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

 

I see no point in shoving anything down anyone's throat. I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe. Following this line of thought, there is no need for me to comment to your first two paragraphs.

 

This third.....

I think about my Lord a lot, yes. A proposition? I'm not sure what you even mean. If you and your wife feel that thinking about the Lord frequently is suffocating, then I would recommend thinking about something else.

 

If you are suggesting that my children will alienate me when they are adults because I guided them according to my beliefs, well, you have the right to suggest whatever you want. I have the right to shrug and say okay. If you are calling me a religious zealot because I think about God a lot, well, I might laugh at you. Just a little.

 

I think about God a lot because I love Him. I think about my husband a lot, too. I think about my kids a lot, as well. They are on my mind. I make choices in my life based on my considerations of and for my family. Since I am so in love with this guy named Jesus, I think about Him a lot. I make choices based on my considerations of and for Him.

 

He comes up in my conversations sometimes, too. Kind of like my kids keep cropping up in my conversations. And my husband. My husband gives me flowers and I guarantee you, I'm telling somebody about it. God touches my heart with something and I tell somebody. Do I go dictating what others do based on my love of God? Certainly not, in my eyes, but I guess someone is always capable of interpreting things in their own unique way. For instance, someone asked about a computer situation yesterday and I mentioned what my husband has to say about that particular situation. Dictate? No. Share what I've learned so you can take it or leave it? Yes. If someone asks about something, it is also possible I'll share advice from another trusted person for Whom I have a love and high regard.

[Guest janainaz]

My wife and our children regularly attend Sunday services, contribute just short of tithing and encourage our children to take part in religious activities as they see fit. Our children seem to be well rounded, religious, have lots of fun and receive their share of honors. They are allowed to use computers, select their own reading material from the book store and the libraries without our hovering over them as if the devil was going to jump out at them in chapter three or appear on a monitor through inadvertently clicking onto the wrong WWW cite. We, in effect, are raising them so that they can pass judgement in the real world when they exit home schooling and enter middle school.

 

The above having been said, we strive not to wear our religion on our sleeves nor shove our beliefs down the ear canal and into the eye balls of those who cross our paths. We give our children the opportunity of selecting their own reading matter, friends and activities without being critical of them should they choose something that doesn't fit into what we would feel less risky or overly narrow. They have done real well without having to follow the guidelines of religious zealots that float around with their religion on their sleeves.

 

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

 

If I am understanding what you are saying, I think I must agree with you. I don't think love and religion mix. I do think that some people are so caught up in their own beliefs that it takes precidence over relationships. The enemies of Jesus were the religious leaders, he was hanging out with the sinners showing them love, seeing through them into their hearts. So, yes, wearing religion on your sleeve can hurt relationships. No one that preached their beliefs to me had any impact on me in a positive way - it was a turn-off because I saw the agenda and it was not about me, it was about them feeling good. Those that showed love, on the other hand were the salt. People who wanted to get to know ME - they stick out like a sore thumb. Big difference there.

 

We ARE the picture of God to our children. They will relate attributes and characteristics of God from what we show them. God does not breathe down our necks, chase us down and hover. He gives us a little room to find our way and He's not insecure. He is a loving and strong father, who stays near, is able to catch us when we fall, but sometimes allows us to get hurt in order to save us. To overprotect also does kids a big disservice, we need to equip them to live in this world and remind them of just how much power they hold through love. They need to learn to see past the surface of things and see into the truth. Part of them figuring out who they are is figuring out who they are NOT.

 

Lastly, I want my kids to know what they believe and know WHY they believe what they believe. At 8 years old I tell my son that I do not want him to believe what we believe because we are telling him to. He knows my life story, he hears my husband and I talking, he sees how we treat people. He's watching and when I'm showing him my bad side, he's the first to know. Even as an adult, I can be humble with my kids and I can be wrong. I open the door wide and bring it all to the table, little by little. God gave me my son(s) to raise, but ultimately they belong to him and I have deep trust in this. I'm not raisiing them to live in fear around every corner of what they might run into. They ARE GOING to run into it - so my job is to prepare them to judge what is truth and what is light. But, most of all - I want them to be in touch with what God has equipped them with for the battle - it's love - not religion.

[Laura in VA]

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

 

 

18Therefore you shall lay up these My words in your [minds and] hearts and in your [entire] being, and bind them for a sign upon your hands and as forehead bands between your eyes.

 

19And you shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you rise up. Deuteronomy 11:18-19

 

As for this being an evangelical cult, I guess you haven't read the "heathen" thread. This board is quite diverse.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

My wife and our children regularly attend Sunday services, contribute just short of tithing and encourage our children to take part in religious activities as they see fit. Our children seem to be well rounded, religious, have lots of fun and receive their share of honors. They are allowed to use computers, select their own reading material from the book store and the libraries without our hovering over them as if the devil was going to jump out at them in chapter three or appear on a monitor through inadvertently clicking onto the wrong WWW cite. We, in effect, are raising them so that they can pass judgement in the real world when they exit home schooling and enter middle school.

 

The above having been said, we strive not to wear our religion on our sleeves nor shove our beliefs down the ear canal and into the eye balls of those who cross our paths. We give our children the opportunity of selecting their own reading matter, friends and activities without being critical of them should they choose something that doesn't fit into what we would feel less risky or overly narrow. They have done real well without having to follow the guidelines of religious zealots that float around with their religion on their sleeves.

 

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

 

I wish my child had more homeschool children like yours to associate with locally.:001_smile:

[Erica in PA]

My wife and our children regularly attend Sunday services, contribute just short of tithing and encourage our children to take part in religious activities as they see fit. Our children seem to be well rounded, religious, have lots of fun and receive their share of honors. They are allowed to use computers, select their own reading material from the book store and the libraries without our hovering over them as if the devil was going to jump out at them in chapter three or appear on a monitor through inadvertently clicking onto the wrong WWW cite. We, in effect, are raising them so that they can pass judgement in the real world when they exit home schooling and enter middle school.

 

The above having been said, we strive not to wear our religion on our sleeves nor shove our beliefs down the ear canal and into the eye balls of those who cross our paths. We give our children the opportunity of selecting their own reading matter, friends and activities without being critical of them should they choose something that doesn't fit into what we would feel less risky or overly narrow. They have done real well without having to follow the guidelines of religious zealots that float around with their religion on their sleeves.

 

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

 

Hmmm... I'm glad you're happy with how you're raising your children, but your post comes across like "this is the *right* way to raise children." Do you mean to suggest that those who have more of a spiritual emphasis in their family than your own family does is wrong in some way? That's how it came across to me.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I sometimes wonder if this is a home schooling site, or the site of some evangelical cult that believes thinking and referring to the Lord is a 7/24 proposition which my wife and I believe would be suffocating and a true path of alienation of us from our children when they realize there are activities in this world that they can take part in that are not under the control of religious zealots.

 

The OP specifically stated that this question had Christian content so that those who do not want to confront issues that have a Christian point of view can skip the post. RC has been more than gracious with the wide range of responses to her post. I would assume that as we do with all posts, that she read the different answers and chose that advice which best matched her situation and the values/beliefs of their family. She did not say that those without a Christian point of view (like JennifersLost) would not be welcome (and neither did the rest of us). And she did not say that only advice from Christians with a certain doctrinal point-of-view need apply. There have been posts from Christians with a very wide range of views. I should hope that we could be tolerant of all those views even if you choose not to embrace all of those views.

[WTMindy]

There are things that belong to other religions that I think we as Christians have lost or have shoved aside for many reasons. Let me give you some examples:

 

I love the night sky. I love the celebration of the seasons. I would like to share my delight in knowing that this is equinox or solstice by adding this to the days of the years that are special. But if I have this type of celebration, I will have people question me whether this is "appropriate" because these are Wiccan holidays, and we certainly would not want to be mimicking their religious practices. (Jean wrinkles her nose up here.)

 

I think that there are times in our search for Bible-believing faith, we have lost the mystery of God that is in his creation. We have science to explain all that we know about nature, and we have not allowed ourselves to see nature as a mystery--a step into the mystical (Webster's Dict: inducing a feeling of awe or wonder)--of the leaves turning red and orange, of the red in the sunset, of the movement of the stars across the skies, of the animals sleeping in their dens, of whisper of the wind. Years ago, these things were worshiped; they were not scientifically understood. In our desire to flee from superstitions we have erased the good and the playful, we've dropped the celebration of life, the beauty of creation.

 

Well, if you are following this line of thinking and if I am making my thoughts clear, perhaps this MIGHT be some of what is drawing your son to Wiccan beliefs--is there something that his friend's family is doing/celebrating/sharing that is "missing" in your home and faith that might just be a basic yearning in his soul?

 

I weary of the cut-and-dried faith of many around me. They seem to have a formula that explains faith, forgiveness, the cross, and the end times. Nature is studied and dissected scientifically. Yes, the trees may not be spirits, but why are they not vibrant life that gives us clues to The One Who Made Them? Why can't we walk into the woods and listen to the wind in hopes to "hear" the breath of God?

 

OTOH, perhaps this has nothing to do with your son. I just saw what you had written and decided this would be a good forum to put my thoughts into print.

 

FWIW,

Jean (who wishes that her spell check had not disappeared when she moved from Mozilla to Internet Explorer!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

Jean, consider yourself imaginarily repped for this! Beautiful sentiments and wise words!!

[tibbyl]

As for this being an evangelical cult, I guess you haven't read the "heathen" thread. This board is quite diverse.

 

That particular thread is rather "threadbare" now. Looks like a piece of Swiss cheese or like post-Gen. Sherman Atlanta.

[Laura in VA]

That particular thread is rather "threadbare" now. Looks like a piece of Swiss cheese or like post-Gen. Sherman Atlanta.

 

I see what you mean. But, enough of the thread is left to show that there is more diversity on this homeschooling board than most.

[classicallyrelaxedmomof3]

We are friends with some families and individuals who are not Christians. In the mix are Buddhists, Jews, Moslems, atheists, and now, Wiccans. I respect their beliefs and I love to find out more about them. I accept these folks as they are, and I don't try to change them. They are some of the nicest, kindest people I have ever met, as are some Christians. We are fortunate to know these people -- they add strong, vibrant, loving threads to the fabrics of our lives.

 

I would much prefer that my children decide to be lifelong Christians, and if I were in control and they were robots, they would be. They do have free will and if they decide not to be Christians, so be it. My place as their parent is to pray for them and to help them find the answers to their questions as much as I can and as much as they will let me.

 

RC

 

Thank you for this!! If only more people in the world felt this way!!

[Wish]

I see what you mean. But, enough of the thread is left to show that there is more diversity on this homeschooling board than most.

:iagree:

 

Melanie