My son's co-op group wants to have a dance--how can they do this easily?

[Pen]

Decorations? Easy food? And around 3 hours of danceable music for today's teens/tweens?

[Night Elf]

The first thing I would do is form a committee of some of the kids who will be there, if there are some older kids. They may have some good ideas.

[The Girls' Mom]

At our co-op, everyone brings a snack or beverage.  Decorations are pretty minimal unless it is a formal.  As far as music, the songs like Cha-Cha Slide and such that call out dance moves are great ice breakers.  

[FaithManor]

For music, you have a problem. It is actually illegal for them to play music to a group that large. It is considered a public gathering, not a private/home event. So you have to hire a DJ because they have a license (ie paid royalties through a licensing company) for use of the music. Your only other option is a live band playing their own music.

 

Here is a link to the legalities:

 

http://www.copyrightandschools.org/

 

You might be able to find a DJ that will do it for a discount price for a non-profit group. In general, your budget for 3 hours of music with a licensed DJ will be about $600-800.

 

Pulled pork sandwiches and trimmings are usually fairly cheap, and especially if you can get the pork on sale. Another option would be to do barbecue pulled chicken if bulk breasts go on sale.

 

Decorations could be simple - just pom poms (even homemade ones though time consuming to make) hanging from the ceilings or walls and colored dollar store plastic tablecloths - or centered around a theme. Black, white, and silver can be accomplished pretty easily and on a tight budget. Dollar store plastic or paper tablecloths, silver confetti on the tables, and silver and white wrapping paper cut to create cheap table runners. Add some votive candles (there are craft stores that sell in bulk and with 40% off coupons they become very cheap).

 

The DJ is what is going to get you. If you have 20 teens, you have to charge $40.00 a piece just to cover the music. You should contact your local district and see what they do for prom. Some may have choir and band members take turns playing. If they have purchased the music, then they have "fair use" law protection which allows them to use it for performance, but they are restricted from video taping though I doubt that stops the kids from doing it on their phones.

[Pink and Green Mom]

Ours did one (although my son was too young to participate).  I know they made it a masquerade theme, and a glow in the dark theme.  They had a lip synching contest, karaoke, those lights that made everything white glow in the dark, and the kids decorated masks (the kind that just go around your eyes with a band to secure it around your head - hope I am describing that correctly).  Glow sticks figured prominently.

 

[FaithManor]

One way around the music licensing is to use the radio. The radio station has already paid licensing for public broadcast so as long as you are piping radio into the dance and not using downloaded music/cd's/mp3's, etc., you have free music. The downside is that you have no control over the content.

 

 

 

[lispy]

One way around the music licensing is to use the radio. The radio station has already paid licensing for public broadcast so as long as you are piping radio into the dance and not using downloaded music/cd's/mp3's, etc., you have free music. The downside is that you have no control over the content.

Not the op, but curious because I've never thought about legalities. Would using something like Pandora or iheart be the same as radio? That way you'd be able to skip the dj, but not have commercials and such breaks in music and have a little more control.

[KungFuPanda]

I'm thinking space, potluck, and a playlist and speakers is the easiest way to go.

[FaithManor]

I just looked it up. If you use one of Pandora's dance stations, you can use it under fair use as the company has paid for the licensing for "small parties". Now that is not going to cover 100 people. No way. But, for a smaller do, maybe twenty kids, one could probably do that legally since they do have special licensing for home parties.

 

I'd be careful doing for a larger group in a public building that might be "targeted", ie. a school, church, or conference center. But if the group size was small, even in those venues, it should be okay.

 

I am not certain about the content of the dance stations on Pandora, but given the plethora of music they offer, hopefully they'd have something with content that isn't too questionable for teens.

[Carrie12345]

I don't have any useful advice b/c I haven't been in on the planning aspects, but our homeschool dances have food, decorations, and DJs, and have always run $25-40 per person, depending on the level of formality.

[FaithManor]

If you do a large enough group to not be able to either pipe radio or Pandora legally, you'll want to look at DJ's ASAP because they are booking up rapidly for prom and wedding season.

[Pen]

There are around 14 kids, I believe.

 

 

I think that this would apply:

 

Section 110 (4) creates an exemption for non-profit groups for performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work (but not a play or an opera) if four conditions are met: 1) the work may be performed but may not be transmitted to the public, 2) none of the performers, organizers, or promoters are paid, 3) there is no direct or indirect commercial advantage, and, 4) there is no admission charge, or, after deducting for reasonable expenses the proceeds are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes. The last condition may not be met if the copyright owner has objected by serving written notice to the performing organization which conforms to requirements outlined in the statute.^[21]

[ChocolateReignRemix]

For music, you have a problem. It is actually illegal for them to play music to a group that large. It is considered a public gathering, not a private/home event. So you have to hire a DJ because they have a license (ie paid royalties through a licensing company) for use of the music. Your only other option is a live band playing their own music.

 

Here is a link to the legalities:

 

http://www.copyrightandschools.org/

 

You might be able to find a DJ that will do it for a discount price for a non-profit group. In general, your budget for 3 hours of music with a licensed DJ will be about $600-800.

 

Pulled pork sandwiches and trimmings are usually fairly cheap, and especially if you can get the pork on sale. Another option would be to do barbecue pulled chicken if bulk breasts go on sale.

 

Decorations could be simple - just pom poms (even homemade ones though time consuming to make) hanging from the ceilings or walls and colored dollar store plastic tablecloths - or centered around a theme. Black, white, and silver can be accomplished pretty easily and on a tight budget. Dollar store plastic or paper tablecloths, silver confetti on the tables, and silver and white wrapping paper cut to create cheap table runners. Add some votive candles (there are craft stores that sell in bulk and with 40% off coupons they become very cheap).

 

The DJ is what is going to get you. If you have 20 teens, you have to charge $40.00 a piece just to cover the music. You should contact your local district and see what they do for prom. Some may have choir and band members take turns playing. If they have purchased the music, then they have "fair use" law protection which allows them to use it for performance, but they are restricted from video taping though I doubt that stops the kids from doing it on their phones.

 

Did I miss something and the OP is in the UK?

 

[Pen]

Ours did one (although my son was too young to participate).  I know they made it a masquerade theme, and a glow in the dark theme.  They had a lip synching contest, karaoke, those lights that made everything white glow in the dark, and the kids decorated masks (the kind that just go around your eyes with a band to secure it around your head - hope I am describing that correctly).  Glow sticks figured prominently.

 

 

This sounds like it could work pretty easily and be fun! The time will be early enough that I am not sure the room can be gotten dark enough though. I guess I've not really noticed whether it has thick curtains or not.

[Pen]

I am in the USA. It is true that here also copyright law is technically pretty strict, but I think the section of the Berne Convention I posted above would apply to my son's co-op. To be on the safe side, a small admission fee could be charged to cover the decorations and food, and the residue could go to charity--they have been trying to raise money to build another shelter for the homeless in any case--and that could help to fit another one of the exemptions.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

There are around 14 kids, I believe.

 

 

I think that this would apply:

 

Section 110 (4) creates an exemption for non-profit groups for performance of a nondramatic literary or musical work (but not a play or an opera) if four conditions are met: 1) the work may be performed but may not be transmitted to the public, 2) none of the performers, organizers, or promoters are paid, 3) there is no direct or indirect commercial advantage, and, 4) there is no admission charge, or, after deducting for reasonable expenses the proceeds are used exclusively for educational, religious, or charitable purposes. The last condition may not be met if the copyright owner has objected by serving written notice to the performing organization which conforms to requirements outlined in the statute.^[21]

 

In general in the United States, if you are a private group holding a private event you don't need to worry about licensing.  If you did hire a DJ, they would be responsible for making sure any applicable copyright laws are followed regarding the use of their music collection.

Edited April 13, 2016 by ChocolateReignRemix

[justasque]

Somewhat dimmer lights and a disco light device go a long way to create a "dance" atmosphere.  A DJ often brings one, but if you're not using a DJ, ask around to see if anyone has one you can borrow.  I like the type that uses different colors of light that change with the beat of the music.  I have this one and I am very pleased with it.  (It can do many things, but I just use the basic setting which responds to the music.  There are cheaper ones out there that are more non-pro friendly.)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am in the USA. It is true that here also copyright law is technically pretty strict, but I think the section of the Berne Convention I posted above would apply to my son's co-op. To be on the safe side, a small admission fee could be charged to cover the decorations and food, and the residue could go to charity--they have been trying to raise money to build another shelter for the homeless in any case--and that could help to fit another one of the exemptions.

 

There is no need to be on the safe side. No one goes door to door checking copyright licenses and this is not an ongoing commercial venture. 

[happypamama]

We did a fifties theme a few years ago, and it was a huge hit.  It was a little easier to find music that was family-friendly.  Food was burgers, fries, ice cream sodas (and other typical snack foods, but we went with the fifties diner theme).  We encouraged people to dress up, which also helped keep attire family-friendly.  They did some games like hula hoop contest, limbo, fifties trivia.  Decorations: balloons, giant ice cream sodas on the walls, records.

 

We also did a Civil War theme a few years before that.  Music was typical for the era (so I guess public domain by now), and we encouraged people to dress in CW gowns; we provided a place for people to get a CW-esque picture taken too.  We had someone make a bunch of food that was typical of the CW era, and we had someone do a CW dance demonstration.  Decorations: old books and antique furniture.  It was more formal than the fifties theme and maybe a little more on the prom side, whereas the fifties theme was more laid-back and more party-like than formal dance.  Both had their appeal.  (We live in a major CW area, though, so people who are experts in the era are not hard to find around here.)

[Katy]

How big is the co-op & how many kids would be there?

 

If it's like any of the ones we've been involved in, copyright issues wouldn't apply.   We'd pick the biggest house, download from iTunes, and hook an apple device to the stereo system after removing the furniture from the largest room and decorating.

 

If it's huge, charging $20 a ticket to rent a venue & hire a DJ would be the way to do it.

[FaithManor]

In general in the United States, if you are a private group holding a private event you don't need to worry about licensing.  If you did hire a DJ, they would be responsible for making sure any applicable copyright laws are followed regarding the use of their music collection.

I wish that were true, but recently they have gone after larger groups held in private homes. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I wish that were true, but recently they have gone after larger groups held in private homes.

Who is they? How do "they" even find out about private groups in homes?

[FaithManor]

Who is they? How do "they" even find out about private groups in homes?

Well, it happens by word of mouth. In the case of a local couple, they showed a movie (DVD) to a large group in their home. (They have a huge home), and the party was mentioned unfortunately in the presence of a local attorney - one that specializes in copyright and patent law. Guess who informed on them? There are also some employees charged with searching social media for clues that copyright laws have been infringed. Usually they work for large law firms and recording studios looking for situations that are quite serious, however some are willing to take on smaller cases. Two counties over a local restaurant ended up with a significant judgment against them for playing copyrighted music on a cd player. There is specialty licensing for restaurants to buy and it doesn't matter if you do not serve large crowds, otherwise they simply need to use a radio.

 

Ya...not common. But on the other hand, I am a musician who has written music for children, and had my intellectual property stolen, ie. copied and used by numerous children's choirs - never paid a dime. I don't have the resources to sue, and it looks bad to sue churches anyway. It is very upsetting to me that many people think it is okay to violate copyright law just because they can justify it in their own minds. I can understand why people think they should be able to do whatever they want in their own homes, or their churches, or their homeschool groups, or classrooms, or whatever. It isn't right though.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well, it happens by word of mouth. In the case of a local couple, they showed a movie (DVD) to a large group in their home. (They have a huge home), and the party was mentioned unfortunately in the presence of a local attorney - one that specializes in copyright and patent law. Guess who informed on them? There are also some employees charged with searching social media for clues that copyright laws have been infringed. Usually they work for large law firms and recording studios looking for situations that are quite serious, however some are willing to take on smaller cases. Two counties over a local restaurant ended up with a significant judgment against them for playing copyrighted music on a cd player. There is specialty licensing for restaurants to buy and it doesn't matter if you do not serve large crowds, otherwise they simply need to use a radio.

 

Ya...not common. But on the other hand, I am a musician who has written music for children, and had my intellectual property stolen, ie. copied and used by numerous children's choirs - never paid a dime. I don't have the resources to sue, and it looks bad to sue churches anyway. It is very upsetting to me that many people think it is okay to violate copyright law just because they can justify it in their own minds. I can understand why people think they should be able to do whatever they want in their own homes, or their churches, or their homeschool groups, or classrooms, or whatever. It isn't right though.

I don't care how huge the home was - if they didn't charge and it was not open to the public, it was not a copyright infringement. And you are saying a random attorney called a copyright holder to inform them that someone showed a movie at a party? I find that story questionable.

The restaurant is a whole different category than what we are discussing.

[goldberry]

I don't care how huge the home was - if they didn't charge and it was not open to the public, it was not a copyright infringement. And you are saying a random attorney called a copyright holder to inform them that someone showed a movie at a party? I find that story questionable.

The restaurant is a whole different category than what we are discussing.

 

I don't find the story questionable in our current culture, but very sad. 

 

Faith, would you really consider your work being shown in a private home to a group of friends a violation?  Not asking that in a critical way, genuinely curious.

[goldberry]

Well, it happens by word of mouth. In the case of a local couple, they showed a movie (DVD) to a large group in their home. (They have a huge home), and the party was mentioned unfortunately in the presence of a local attorney - one that specializes in copyright and patent law. Guess who informed on them? .

 

That (the attorney) does not sound like someone I would want as a friend. 

[goldberry]

I'm really curious now...  Is there a limit to the number of people maybe?  Whether it is in a private home or a public space?  How is the line defined?  I can't imagine a group of friends watching a movie or listening to music in a private home to fall under copyright infringement.  I am actually stunned by that concept.  But even in a public space, I would think that maybe charging admission might be a variable?  If you don't charge admission (beyond covering cost) and are inviting a specific group, I don't get that even in a public space.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't find the story questionable in our current culture, but very sad.

 

Faith, would you really consider your work being shown in a private home to a group of friends a violation? Not asking that in a critical way, genuinely curious.

It is questionable because a private showing in a private residence is a clear exemption from copyright laws. There is either more to the story or it is one of those local legends that get spread around as truth.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm really curious now... Is there a limit to the number of people maybe? Whether it is in a private home or a public space? How is the line defined? I can't imagine a group of friends watching a movie or listening to music in a private home to fall under copyright infringement. I am actually stunned by that concept. But even in a public space, I would think that maybe charging admission might be a variable? If you don't charge admission (beyond covering cost) and are inviting a specific group, I don't get that even in a public space.

The rule for private residences is pretty straight forward - must be a "group of friends" or "social acquaintances" and not open to the general public. There is no restriction on the size of the group in the exemption.

 

The rules for public spaces are more complicated and vary based on the venue and whether admission is charged.

[FaithManor]

I don't find the story questionable in our current culture, but very sad. 

 

Faith, would you really consider your work being shown in a private home to a group of friends a violation?  Not asking that in a critical way, genuinely curious.

In my case it is music. Numerous children's choir directors have purchased single copies of my work then photo copied them for the accompanist and for all of the members. The worst time was when I was invited to my niece's church to her children's concert and sat there watching a 50 voice children's choir sing my number off photo copies. I approached the pastor and the choir director privately and was sworn at by the director for "being greedy". Apparently I should compose for free since it is "for a good cause". Sigh...

 

That is why I am very sensitive to copyright infringement in all forms.

[FaithManor]

As for the private home, it was a copyright infringement because while the party was held in a private home, the participants were charged. They actually sold tickets. It wasn't just a family get together or a birthday party. It was an after prom event, and the ticket price was something like $50.00 per person if memory serves. I'd have to go look it up and see if the local newspaper article is still available. But then again, I don't feel like it as I have another load of laundry to get done in order to make my assault on Laundry Mt. McKinley successful.

[goldberry]

Oh, that makes more sense...

 

And that is awful the church director would have the nerve to accuse you of being greedy.  What a jerk!

 

ETA, I was thinking more of how a youth group recently had a LOTR watching party one weekend... There were a lot of kids but it was just a get-together and no fees were charged.

Edited April 13, 2016 by goldberry

[Mom22ns]

Our local homeschool group sponsors English Contra dances. Everyone brings a snack and they provide big coolers of ice water. That takes care of the food and drinks. 

 

I won't touch copyright issues. Our group pays a caller who has the music licenses covered.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

As for the private home, it was a copyright infringement because while the party was held in a private home, the participants were charged. They actually sold tickets. It wasn't just a family get together or a birthday party. It was an after prom event, and the ticket price was something like $50.00 per person if memory serves. I'd have to go look it up and see if the local newspaper article is still available. But then again, I don't feel like it as I have another load of laundry to get done in order to make my assault on Laundry Mt. McKinley successful.

 

That is an entirely different version than what you implied when you posted:

"Well, it happens by word of mouth. In the case of a local couple, they showed a movie (DVD) to a large group in their home. (They have a huge home), and the party was mentioned unfortunately in the presence of a local attorney - one that specializes in copyright and patent law."

 

The fact that they charged a fee is very, very different than someone just showing a movie at a party.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I won't touch copyright issues. Our group pays a caller who has the music licenses covered.

 

If you hire a DJ who operates as a business you are on very safe ground regarding copyright issues.

[Rebel Yell]

In my case it is music. Numerous children's choir directors have purchased single copies of my work then photo copied them for the accompanist and for all of the members. The worst time was when I was invited to my niece's church to her children's concert and sat there watching a 50 voice children's choir sing my number off photo copies. I approached the pastor and the choir director privately and was sworn at by the director for "being greedy". Apparently I should compose for free since it is "for a good cause". Sigh...

 

That is why I am very sensitive to copyright infringement in all forms.

 

This makes me sad. maybe if each page had printed right at the top: "if this is not an purchased copy identifiable by it's somethingprofessionalsounding binding, then this is an illegal copy and is subject to fines of $$$ under copyright law." I have issues with churches especially that do things like this. I totally understand low budgets. I also have an artist/graphics designer husband who has people get mad when he wants them to actually pay for the fonts/images they want him to use in the work they barely or rarely even pay him to do. 🙄

[Rebel Yell]

And for helpful info for the OP 😄 My girls never really cared for decorations at homeschool dances. A decent dance floor, enough seats for taking breaks, and some snacks was all they cared about.

[Pen]

Thank you for all replies. I'l like to "Like-button" everything, but am having computer trouble with that. so consider it all 'liked" and appreciated!

 

We can't afford to hire a DJ, and even if there is admission, it will only be something like $5 to help cover expenses with excess to go to charity. I hope FaithManor agrees that this fits the exemption under the Berne convention.  I think there will be a boom box and kids will bring in CD's with favorite songs. It will be at a church, not a private home, but it certainly is a group of friends/social acquaintances and not open to the public.

 

Anyway, again, thanks for the ideas!

[justasque]

Thank you for all replies. I'l like to "Like-button" everything, but am having computer trouble with that. so consider it all 'liked" and appreciated!

 

We can't afford to hire a DJ, and even if there is admission, it will only be something like $5 to help cover expenses with excess to go to charity. I hope FaithManor agrees that this fits the exemption under the Berne convention.  I think there will be a boom box and kids will bring in CD's with favorite songs. It will be at a church, not a private home, but it certainly is a group of friends/social acquaintances and not open to the public.

 

Anyway, again, thanks for the ideas!

 

You might seek out an older teen (or parent) who is interested in music who can play DJ with the CDs the kids bring.  A good DJ (even an amateur one) can start the party with music as people arrive, then play some "ice breaker" songs to get everyone dancing, then carefully construct the sequence to keep them on the dance floor, with a "cool down" at the end.  (Kind of like a zumba class, really!)  It will make all the difference if you can find someone good.

[Pen]

There is no need to be on the safe side. No one goes door to door checking copyright licenses and this is not an ongoing commercial venture. 

 

 

I realize that this probably fine in any case.

 

I also believe it is fine even technically according to the governing law, and even if someone did decide to question the situation. To me it is use that fits in at least one, and could be in more than one, of the statutory exemptions.  It isn't even a situation like jaywalking where it usually isn't caught or looked at in most places. Instead, it is actually legal.

[Pen]

You might seek out an older teen (or parent) who is interested in music who can play DJ with the CDs the kids bring.  A good DJ (even an amateur one) can start the party with music as people arrive, then play some "ice breaker" songs to get everyone dancing, then carefully construct the sequence to keep them on the dance floor, with a "cool down" at the end.  (Kind of like a zumba class, really!)  It will make all the difference if you can find someone good.

 

 

I think that is happening. I've contributed ideas from here to the meeting.  My main area of contribution is going to be snacks.

 

My snacks plan is things like organic chips, salsa and hummus, popcorn (someone else will bring a popper) with some toppings...and I hope some fruit...  Others will also bring some snacks.

 

A lot of people are vegan and/or gluten-free. We are organic. And I think the kids will already have eaten dinner. Something like pulled BBQ pork is way, way beyond the scope of what we are doing, which is just small and simple.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I realize that this probably fine in any case.

 

I also believe it is fine even technically according to the governing law, and even if someone did decide to question the situation. To me it is use that fits in at least one, and could be in more than one, of the statutory exemptions.  It isn't even a situation like jaywalking where it usually isn't caught or looked at in most places. Instead, it is actually legal.

 

You are 100% in the clear.