When University Profs Don't Appear to Have Read Students' Papers ...

[Cleopatra]

My daughter is taking an English 103 course at a private university near us.  Part of the course requires a huge research paper which is worth 35% of the mark.  She was supposed to get 4 people to edit it and among them was two high school teachers, one who is very well-respected, very particular, and teaches AP English.  Last week, she received her paper back from the professor and there are a couple of issues with it.  Since it's her first university experience I thought I'd see if anyone has some advice to offer.

 

First big issue:  from the comments on her paper, it doesn't appear that the professor has read it.  Her topic was how Tolkien made a different hero with Bilbo Baggins.  She first explained the classic hero (ie. Achilles), then the anti-hero (such as present day Batman, etc.), then went on to describe how Bilbo was fully neither of these and that Tolkien crafted a completely different type of hero.  The professor's commented on her paragraph about the anti-hero, saying that she shouldn't call Bilbo an anti-hero because he doesn't have any of the qualities of one, then she went on to mention some of his qualities.  I was completely astounded because that was what my dd had put in her essay.  There is a comment later too that leads one to suspect that she hasn't read it.  So what should my dd do about this?  Do professors regularly not read students' papers carefully?  She's going to talk to her professor tomorrow, and we'll see but the professor is very tough and likes to announce that she received terrible grades in English because her teachers were hard on her and look where she is now.  Overall this has been a very weird experience.

 

Small issue:  she was graded down because of "comma splices" but the professor's comma splice notations are not consistent.  The English teacher said that he thought that was ridiculous in that comma splices are not technical errors but have to do with stylistic preference.  When I look on the internet, it tends to agree with him.

 

Another small issue:  She was told to have 3-5 citations in the paper instructions, and used 4 but when she received her paper back the note was that she was 1 citation short.  I wonder if the professor had 5 in her mind and didn't remember the instructions.

 

In any case, my dd was marked down for all of these things.  The main issue that is bothering me is that I've paid a lot of money for this course, she doesn't appear to have read the paper.  It's also possible that the grade will affect my dd's scholarship opportunities but that isn't clear yet.  Has anyone else had a similar circumstance and any advice as to what to do?  Any help would be greatly appreciated! 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Cleopatra

[regentrude]

She should make an appointment with the professor to go over the paper.

She should ask for clarification about the comments and should show that she wants to understand why she lost those points.

 

It is entirely possible that the paper was not graded by the professor herself, but by a graduate Teaching Assistant who may not have been properly instructed, received conflicting information, or been careless or inept.

Or the professor herself may have graded the paper and made mistakes. This can happen when you have to grade work for a large class.

 

The key is to contact the instructor as soon as possible, remain nonconfrontational and respectful, and show a willingness to learn from one's mistakes.

A good instructor will review the grading and make adjustment when it becomes clear that mistakes have been made.

 

It is, however, also possible that students misunderstand the requirements or the comments.

[8filltheheart]

No suggestions, but I would photocopy the paper with its comments before your dd going to meet with her that way if the paper is taken and not returned with any of the issues addressed, your dd has a copy of the paper.

 

FWIW, I wouldn't address the comma splices.  Are the number of citations written down on the syllabus, blackboard, or elsewhere?  Or was it all verbal?

 

ETA: Regentrude's point is good.  It could have been graded by a TA.

Edited April 11, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Haiku]

I used to be a professional editor. I have never encountered the idea that a comma splice is a stylistic preference. Comma splices violate the known and clear rules on joining two independent clauses.

 

Regarding the citations, I have always understood that when professors give a range like 3-5, 5 is optimal and 3 is the minimum. I have been in classes where students were graded the way your dd was. I think it would benefit her to ask for clarification on that, but I would be inclined to agree with the professor on that one.

 

I would definitely ask for more information about comments pertaining to Bilbo and the anti-hero.

 

[hornblower]

have you looked at rate my prof to see what kind of reviews this instructor has? 

Do you have any sense of the average marks in this class? 

Is there a written syllabus with all course assignment details? 

Is it possible that this course is looking for very specific essay structure?

One of dd's English courses was crazy about structure: thesis must be in last sentence of first paragraph. Each subsequent paragraph must start with a topic sentence; the topic sentence must reflect back to & support the thesis. Each paragraph must end with a concluding sentence which restates the topic sentence and transitions to the next topic sentence.  Topic sentences cannot introduce anything new - they have to be connected to the thesis etc etc etc.

She got the sense that instructors were literally reading last & first sentences of the paragraphs & just skimming the rest.  So if you used a slightly different structure, one with more stylistic diversions perhaps, you'd get hammered in the marking. 
 

[Cleopatra]

She should make an appointment with the professor to go over the paper.

She should ask for clarification about the comments and should show that she wants to understand why she lost those points.

 

It is entirely possible that the paper was not graded by the professor herself, but by a graduate Teaching Assistant who may not have been properly instructed, received conflicting information, or been careless or inept.

Or the professor herself may have graded the paper and made mistakes. This can happen when you have to grade work for a large class.

 

The key is to contact the instructor as soon as possible, remain nonconfrontational and respectful, and show a willingness to learn from one's mistakes.

A good instructor will review the grading and make adjustment when it becomes clear that mistakes have been made.

 

It is, however, also possible that students misunderstand the requirements or the comments.

 

Thanks for your comments, Regentrude; I was hoping that you'd show up.  My dd is going to take your advice and talk with the professor and we'll see how it goes.  She did check everything with her teacher/editors and they are surprised as well and having seen the instructions believe she complied with them.  The point about the TA is excellent and certainly a possibility.  Thanks again!

[Cleopatra]

No suggestions, but I would photocopy the paper with its comments before your dd going to meet with her that way if the paper is taken and not returned with any of the issues addressed, your dd has a copy of the paper.

 

FWIW, I wouldn't address the comma splices.  Are the number of citations written down on the syllabus, blackboard, or elsewhere?  Or was it all verbal?

 

ETA: Regentrude's point is good.  It could have been graded by a TA.

 

Oh, thank you, that's excellent advice.  I'll get her to copy it before she goes.  I won't get her to address the comma splices with regard to mark but just perhaps for clarification, as what the professor is designating as comma splices isn't consistent.  The citation instructions were written, so she has that to take with her.  Thanks for all your help!

[Cleopatra]

I used to be a professional editor. I have never encountered the idea that a comma splice is a stylistic preference. Comma splices violate the known and clear rules on joining two independent clauses.

 

Regarding the citations, I have always understood that when professors give a range like 3-5, 5 is optimal and 3 is the minimum. I have been in classes where students were graded the way your dd was. I think it would benefit her to ask for clarification on that, but I would be inclined to agree with the professor on that one.

 

I would definitely ask for more information about comments pertaining to Bilbo and the anti-hero.

 

There are a couple of places where the comma splice is apparent but there are other places where it isn't and the sentence appears to work just fine.  I'm just running out now but I'll try to give you an example later, just for interest.  It's not too big a deal, but one of the teacher/editors was rather annoyed about it.

 

Regarding the citations, you would really agree?!  If she asks for 3-5 but wants 5, why wouldn't she just put a minimum of 5?  

 

My dd actually went in to talk about her paper with the professor, during writing it, and she took some of her advice.  They had even discussed the anti-hero, which makes the final comments on her paper even more puzzling.

 

Thanks for your input, Tara.

[Cleopatra]

have you looked at rate my prof to see what kind of reviews this instructor has? 

 

Do you have any sense of the average marks in this class? 

 

Is there a written syllabus with all course assignment details? 

 

Is it possible that this course is looking for very specific essay structure?

One of dd's English courses was crazy about structure: thesis must be in last sentence of first paragraph. Each subsequent paragraph must start with a topic sentence; the topic sentence must reflect back to & support the thesis. Each paragraph must end with a concluding sentence which restates the topic sentence and transitions to the next topic sentence.  Topic sentences cannot introduce anything new - they have to be connected to the thesis etc etc etc.

 

She got the sense that instructors were literally reading last & first sentences of the paragraphs & just skimming the rest.  So if you used a slightly different structure, one with more stylistic diversions perhaps, you'd get hammered in the marking. 

 

 

We heard good things about the professor from the university staff but sadly looked up her ratings after my dd had already enrolled.  There are a number of comments that she is a hard marker (which doesn't bother me).  There were also comments that the students went in for help and never received any useful help from her.  Everyone complained about her grading being too hard.  There were quite a few irate students.  My dd felt they were probably just students complaining but now she's been in the same circumstance and would concur with the comments.  My dd worked SO hard in this course.  She put hours and hours and hours in.  The professor tells her how good a writer she is and her comments on other papers have been very positive yet her grade hasn't changed through the semester.  She feels very discouraged.  Personally, I feel that this professor think she needs to be really hard on her students and then somehow they will succeed whereas I just see a number of students who have lost some of their joy of learning.  No one is getting good grades in this course.  My dd has taken some very rigorous and sometimes frustrating courses, but she has never worked so hard and felt that she's received very little.  I would not have an issue if this was a third year course, or even a second, but this is a first year course, with a number of high school students who should be mentored a little to help them along. 

 

There is a written syllabus and assignment details so that will help.  Thanks for the suggestion.  That's certainly possible, but the AP English teacher was very picky about structure.  My dd will ask about the prof about it though, when she sees her.

[Tsuga]

Well, I didn't go to college for the GPA, but I learned too late that if you just go in to talk about a paper, some profs assume you are there to haggle for a grade, not to discuss your actual work.

 

If I ever go back to school god forbid I will be sure to tell each and every professor that I don't care if they lower the grade a full grade point on principle, I am there to learn and discuss and engage in academic debate, not for a number so please take me seriously.

 

In philosophy that was done as a matter of course (I mean, academic debate) but in my master's program it was hard to have a serious conversation with a professor. They were so antagonistic and never listened and then would basically ask me how many points I thought they should add. How utterly insulting.

 

So, my advice is, to get that out of the way up front.

[daijobu]

  She was supposed to get 4 people to edit it and among them was two high school teachers, one who is very well-respected, very particular, and teaches AP English.   

 

I'm curious, is this common?  I have avoided liberal arts courses when possible (for the reasons discussed here...too much subjective grading).  But I wasn't aware that college students were required to have their old high school teachers edit their papers (for free?) before then submitting them to their professor.

[katilac]

  But I wasn't aware that college students were required to have their old high school teachers edit their papers (for free?) before then submitting them to their professor.

 

I would assume that she was required to have 4 people edit it, and 2 of the people who agreed happened to be high school teachers. She wasn't required to have anyone specific edit it, I think the OP was just pointing out that at least 2 of the editors are quite knowledgable. 

[Grantmom]

This is why English and history classes scare me when I think about what classes my students might take for DE.  I think there is so much that is subjective, and then that grade is a part of their college application.  And I am a writer!

 

Comma splices would not be about style in a paper like you are describing.  It could be acceptable in something very short, or in something poetic.  I came, I saw, I conquered.  Post an example for us.  I am curious now!

[Bootsie]

I do know of some professors who "grade" papers without reading them.  However, these professors would seldom take the time to write detailed comments such as mentioning a character's qualities.  Often these professors just put a grade on the paper.  (I had a friend who suspected that her professor was doing that--she started writing "Mary had a little lamb, her fleece was white as snow.... Dr. X are you really reading my paper?...." in the middle of her essays.  The professor continued to mark "Great Job! A" on the paper.)  It does make me wonder if the professor got two papers she did read confused.  When grading a stack of papers, that does happen from time to time. 

 

Are some of the things that are mentioned a difference in a "C" paper and an "A" paper.  Did the professor say a minimum of 3-5 citations?  Does that mean a "C" paper needs at least 3 citations but students who show excellent work deserving of an "A" general have five citations?  Is there a particular type of citation that she was looking for?  Or, is there a particular area of the paper she thinks would have been better if there was an additional citation?  These are the types of things that for which I can see a professor setting a minimum but expecting more for an "A" paper.

 

[Cleopatra]

Thanks, Tsuga.  I know that professors probably get students arguing about grades often, so you're right ..... she doesn't want to sound like it's about the mark.  And it isn't ..... she just wants a paper graded based upon what she wrote.

 

Yes, Daijobu, it's what Katilac said ..... she needed 4 "editors" and she just happened to know a couple of English teachers who were willing to be two of them.  They also had peer editing in class too, which honestly was completely useless, so having educated opinions was very helpful.  

 

Okay re: comma splices ......... Here is an example of one of them:  Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.  The professor has the splice between "Scotland " and "yet".  In this case, I could see it being a matter of style, but I'm not an expert, just a grammarphobe.   ;)   Actually I just looked over the whole paper and while the professor had a note that she was generous with her grade in spite of the comma splices, she's only noted three in a 7 page paper.  Again .... curious .....

 

Grantmom, it is somewhat unsettling, and you're right, the grading is very subjective.  In the first week of class the professor said she wanted papers from the students that made her "feel something".  If I was a student, that would make me nervous.  I wouldn't know the professor, so how could I guess what would touch her emotionally?  And something that would touch one person emotionally might not touch another in the same way.  I often feel like you are having to spend so much time figuring out what each professor wants that it takes away from the learning.  However, I think once you take a few courses, you get to know from other students who are the best professors and whom you might want to avoid.  

 

Jdalquist, my guess is that the professor read the paper and commented as she went.  When she got to the paragraph about the anti-hero, she assumed that my dd was talking about Bilbo, when she actually wasn't.  I can understand that, but when she read further, she should have noticed her mistake.  Your example about the professor makes me shudder.  It's interesting that some of the older professors complain about how few papers students write nowadays, yet the professors seemed swamped with what they have now.  I wonder how they got it all done back then.  Regarding, the citations there is not clarification in the instructions.  The instructions say "books and articles"  My dd is wondering if she didn't want internet sources, but again, that isn't clear.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Laura Corin]

Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

I'm not an expert, but I don't think that is a comma splice. Isn't the section from 'credited' to 'Scotland' a subordinate clause marked out by commas?

[snowbeltmom]

Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

I'm not an expert, but I don't think that is a comma splice.

 

:iagree:

 

I am not an expert either, but to me it looks grammatically correct- two independent clauses separated by a comma and a "FANBOY". 

 

[8filltheheart]

I don't think it is a comma splice, either. Isn't it just a compound sentence with 2 descriptive modifiers?

 

I haven't had my coffee yet, but isn't credited a past particle?

Edited April 12, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Cosmos]

Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

The basic sentence is a compound sentence using the coordinating conjunction "yet":

 

Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, yet he is a moral recreant.

 

The second independent clause is modified by an absolute phrase (a noun followed by a participial phrase):

 

his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement

 

The absolute phrase is correctly separated by a comma:

 

Macbeth is ambitious and dauntless, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

That leaves just the participial phrase at the beginning:

 

credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland

 

This participial phrase modifies the subject ("Macbeth"), but its placement is a little unusual, coming after a predicate nominative. Essentially we have three modifiers of the subject:

ambitious

dauntless

credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland

The two adjectives are connected by "and", but the participial phrase is sort of hanging there unconnected (and not directly following the noun it modifies).

 

You could rewrite this phrase in a couple of  ways:

 

Macbeth, credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, is ambitious and dauntless, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

Macbeth is ambitious, dauntless, and credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

Macbeth, ambitious and dauntless, is credited for chasing the Norwegians out of Scotland, yet he is a moral recreant, his desire for kingship overruling his values and judgement.

 

I actually like the original better than any of these. It has a wonderful rhythm to it and is a good example IMO of where style should overrule slight grammar irregularities.

 

But it doesn't sound like the placement of the participial phrase was even what the professor was objecting to. It is certainly not a comma splice.

[Bluegoat]

We heard good things about the professor from the university staff but sadly looked up her ratings after my dd had already enrolled.  There are a number of comments that she is a hard marker (which doesn't bother me).  There were also comments that the students went in for help and never received any useful help from her.  Everyone complained about her grading being too hard.  There were quite a few irate students.  My dd felt they were probably just students complaining but now she's been in the same circumstance and would concur with the comments.  My dd worked SO hard in this course.  She put hours and hours and hours in.  The professor tells her how good a writer she is and her comments on other papers have been very positive yet her grade hasn't changed through the semester.  She feels very discouraged.  Personally, I feel that this professor think she needs to be really hard on her students and then somehow they will succeed whereas I just see a number of students who have lost some of their joy of learning.  No one is getting good grades in this course.  My dd has taken some very rigorous and sometimes frustrating courses, but she has never worked so hard and felt that she's received very little.  I would not have an issue if this was a third year course, or even a second, but this is a first year course, with a number of high school students who should be mentored a little to help them along. 

 

There is a written syllabus and assignment details so that will help.  Thanks for the suggestion.  That's certainly possible, but the AP English teacher was very picky about structure.  My dd will ask about the prof about it though, when she sees her.

 

It may be that the prof is old school in her view of what counts as a "good" grade.  Today people expect As as good grades, but that has not always been the case - in the past Bs and even Cs were considered perfectly good grades for competent students who worked hard.  An A was for something quite special.

[Grantmom]

I agree with the above.  Yet is a coordinating conjunction there and it's not a comma splice.  If she had left out the word yet, that would be a comma splice.  Interesting.  I think I would go and talk to the prof during office hours and ask for advice about each instance, with the goal of wanting to understand how she can improve.  My son is taking 4 outsourced classes this year, and he has learned the lesson that you have to check your assignment as soon as it is graded and go to the professor with any questions you have about points lost.  There have been multiple times when he lost points for something he shouldn't have lost points for, simply because it was graded incorrectly.  Teachers are busy and they make mistakes sometimes.  This was a good lesson for him to learn now and not later.

 

[Ravin]

The comma stuff is rather petty, but I would definitely go marching in to the professor's office over her apparently not reading the paper deeply enough to realize that the discussion of the anti-hero was NOT referring directly to Bilbo. The substantive mark-down would bother me far more. I would probably also point out the arbitrary and inconsistent business with the commas while I was at it, but wouldn' t go in just for that.

[Haiku]

Regarding the citations, you would really agree?!  If she asks for 3-5 but wants 5, why wouldn't she just put a minimum of 5?  

 

Probably because she wants to see whether students do the minimum or go beyond that.

[Cleopatra]

Wow, thank you all so much for your feedback with regard to the comma splice example!  I couldn't find much wrong with the sentence but I certainly couldn't have broken it down as well as Cosmos.  And thanks for the kind comment, Cosmos.  My dd needed something to buoy her spirits.  

 

This other example of a comma splice is little more questionable:  Literature and film are imbued with classic hero personas, originating with Achilles in The Iliad to the time of modern heroes such as Percy Jackson, from Percy Jackson and the Olympians, however, although they are centuries apart, they both share the same heroic qualities.  She has the comma splice between "Olympians" and "however".  

 

On another note with regard to citations, in one paragraph where my dd is describing hobbits, the professor has noted on my dd's paper that she needs to give "page numbers and citations from the primary text".  My dd is not using quotes from the text, but summarizing the qualities of Bilbo that do not make him an obvious hero at the start of the novel.  My dd understands why they would be needed if she was using a quote, but since it's her own summary, she's confused by this request.  Has anyone come across this expectation before?

 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[hornblower]

 

On another note with regard to citations, in one paragraph where my dd is describing hobbits, the professor has noted on my dd's paper that she needs to give "page numbers and citations from the primary text".  My dd is not using quotes from the text, but summarizing the qualities of Bilbo that do not make him an obvious hero at the start of the novel.  My dd understands why they would be needed if she was using a quote, but since it's her own summary, she's confused by this request.  Has anyone come across this expectation before?

 

Yes.  This was an expectation in dd's courses. It didn't just apply to direct quotes but also to paraphrases & summaries. The idea was that you'd refer the reader back to pp. where they could see passages which supported your summary.  The only thing that is not cited is your opinion.  Any evidence for your opinion has to be cited. Her essays are pretty much full of MLA inline cites. 

 

have a look at Purdue Owl and the first section with the samples citing Wordsworth in the section  "In-text citations: Author-page style" 

[hornblower]

Just following up because I tried to post & had to delete a bunch of stuff yesterday. I have to edit myself because I SO hate the English departments here now. (& I graduated with enough credits for a minor in foreign lit except my uni didn't give out minors; just want to say I put in my time doing lit analysis) 

I got a hold of the departmental grading spreadsheets at dd's college. The English department has the lowest average grade handed out & the highest rate of Incompletes and Withdrawals.  One course dd had to take has a college average of a C.

Their marking rubric is that if you meet all the requirements and execute them competently, that is a C. If you're close but screw up a few minor things, that's a C-. 

If you go above and beyond the basics & wow them a bit you might get into B's. Work has to be exceptional to get into A- and flawless for an A+. I'm *convinced* that an arts PhD from another uni could submit a paper to one of dd's profs and not get an A.  There is an English prof at one of the schools who brags that she hasn't given an undergrad an A in years.  They all have 'cooling off' policies: you cannot speak to a prof about a grade until 24h have passed because people are so livid with the marking. 

I think they start from an F and mark up and stop when they get to the Cs. It really does have to be insanely good before they'll give above it. 

I thought it was one school but when I started asking, it's rampant on all our local campuses.  It's like the English departments here have a chip on their shoulder & they're out to prove how difficult their subject is. "Oh sure you might be getting As and Bs in biology, chem, math, history and sociology. But English is harder, you see!"  It's insane. 



OP - when you mention again the thing about "she assumed that my dd was talking about Bilbo, when she actually wasn't.  I can understand that, but when she read further, she should have noticed her mistake." - that again to me screams of the structure some seem to be looking for. Do not make them read past the first sentence of a paragraph. The first sentence has to lay it all out with no hints, no foreshadowing about the point you'll be making, no roundabouts. 

I'm sorry your dd is going through this. Fwiw, my dd had to take another course in that department and was very careful, picking from ratemyprofs and polling people, and she's having a much better experience this semester though she's still finding marking very subjective and the course sucks up large amounts of time. 
 

[Cleopatra]

It may be that the prof is old school in her view of what counts as a "good" grade.  Today people expect As as good grades, but that has not always been the case - in the past Bs and even Cs were considered perfectly good grades for competent students who worked hard.  An A was for something quite special.

 

Honestly, from being a homeschooler, realizing how subjective marking can be and considering my dd is still in grade 11, in this case, I haven't been too worried about grades ....... she was past what I could do with her in English and I wanted her in an environment where she'd be challenged and learn.  While I do think she's learned something (if nothing else, life skills), I'm a little disappointed with her experience.  I don't think this professor is a bad teacher, but I do think that she should be teaching third or fourth year students and a professor who is more willing to mentor students should teach the first year courses.

 

However, my dd is trying to get the president's scholarship, which means she needs 90% and above in four high school courses.  We were initially told that as long as she had less than 24 university credits, they would take high school marks but now they're saying since she's taking this course, they would just count it as a dual credit for English.  I'm not happy about this because we were initially told she had a choice of whether we used it as dual credit or not.  If they use it then the grade really does matter, not to mention that she is being judged on completely different criteria than the rest of the applicants.  Her professor agrees it's unfair and says she has no problem believing my dd is getting in the 90s in high school English .........  but she can't get above a 73 on a paper in her class no matter what she does.  The AP English teacher said my dd's paper was a definite A (the other teacher did too) and he's a very hard marker with very high expectations so I can't figure out the professor at all, except perhaps she just doesn't think a grade 11 students should get higher marks no matter how well she writes.  The professor often compliments her on her writing, so perhaps that is the case.  In any case, I really didn't want to focus on the grades and have it be about the learning, but sadly the importance of grades tend to creep in no matter what philosophy one wants to have.   :sad:

[Bootsie]

 

 

This other example of a comma splice is little more questionable:  Literature and film are imbued with classic hero personas, originating with Achilles in The Iliad to the time of modern heroes such as Percy Jackson, from Percy Jackson and the Olympians, however, although they are centuries apart, they both share the same heroic qualities.  She has the comma splice between "Olympians" and "however".  

 

On another note with regard to citations, in one paragraph where my dd is describing hobbits, the professor has noted on my dd's paper that she needs to give "page numbers and citations from the primary text".  My dd is not using quotes from the text, but summarizing the qualities of Bilbo that do not make him an obvious hero at the start of the novel.  My dd understands why they would be needed if she was using a quote, but since it's her own summary, she's confused by this request.  Has anyone come across this expectation before?

A semi-colon is needed between Olympians and however.  These are two sentences.  While this may seem petty, I remember instructors who would lower the grade on a paper one letter grade for each mistake like this. 

 

For the page numbers and citations from the primary text, it appears that the professor is wanting the student to strengthen the paper by showing the reader exactly where to go to see that those are the traits.  From this small amount of information, it sounds to me that the professor is not saying that something was not documented properly.  Instead the professor is saying that specific examples of this from the text would strengthen the writing.

[hornblower]

 

However, my dd is trying to get the president's scholarship, which means she needs 90% and above in four high school courses.  We were initially told that as long as she had less than 24 university credits, they would take high school marks but now they're saying since she's taking this course, they would just count it as a dual credit for English.  I'm not happy about this because we were initially told she had a choice of whether we used it as dual credit or not.  If they use it then the grade really does matter, not to mention that she is being judged on completely different criteria than the rest of the applicants.  

is it too late to drop it? I'd drop that like a hot potato if possible. 

[8filltheheart]

That 2nd example is a comma splice. It requires a ; .

[Grantmom]

Yes, the second example is definitely a comma splice.  You could even have a period there.  

 

Again, though, this whole experience completely scares me away from any English classes!

[Cleopatra]

Thanks for the information, Hornblower.  It's interesting to learn about what challenges students are having to face in university/college life.  It's a weird dichotomy where education can be dumbed down and less is expected of students, but there are also very heavy expectations on them that can be quite unreasonable.  I laughed, however, upon reading that you had to "censor" your first post.   ;)

 

The subjective marking is so frustrating, isn't it?  The university where my dd is attending is a private university and she knew going in that the professors were hard markers.  I know one lady who got B- & C+s there, went to a university in the States for her masters and was easily getting As.  My dd's marks are near the top of the class with her 73s.  The expectations of some of the professors are particularly frustrating.  I feel that you need to figure out what they want and reproduce it.  That's not learning, IMO.  For example, in my dd's paper you can tell that the professor wants her to allude to Bilbo being a Christian hero.  My dd deliberately kept it more on a moral level because she knew Tolkien did not like to bring his theology into his books, and in fact, disliked the fact the C.S. Lewis did, so she tried to respect that and have her paper echo his views.  It's obvious the professor wanted it stated differently, which is not allowing the student to learn and develop their own ideas, but parrot the professor's.  While I believe this sort of expectation is rampant in most universities, I was a little surprise to see it with this professor.  I've taken a few courses at this university and with regard to the Christian aspect, the professors tend to play devil's advocate and plummet you with opposite ideas to your own to help you understand what you believe.  It was rather refreshing ...

 

An interesting story for you:  we live in Canada where my friend is doing her Ph.D. in sociology.  She says the Canadian professors that she has are still quite balanced and their requirements, while stringent, are reasonable.  However, she says when they get visiting professors from Oxford, or Harvard, or Yale, they work you to the bone as if the copious amounts of work (where she feels she learns less) is going to somehow transform you into an amazing academic.  She's a wife and mother and, needless to say, has no time for her family and is highly stressed.  I don't envy students of today.  

 

Thanks for your wishes for my dd.  She's not really upset about it, just irritated because she doesn't feel like she's been treated fairly.  Welcome to life, right?   ;)

 

ETA:  Oh, and she can't drop it as it's almost done.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[hornblower]

Cleopatra, I'm in Canada too! 

[Cleopatra]

Thanks all for the advice on the second comma splice example and the page numbers and citation.  I'll let me dd know.

 

 

Yes, the second example is definitely a comma splice.  You could even have a period there.  

 

Again, though, this whole experience completely scares me away from any English classes!

 

Don't let it scare you ....... but it's helpful to know what you're facing and I wish I'd had more information going in.  Hornblower's advice on looking up the professor on ratemyprofessor and polling others is a good one.  I used to think all the students on ratemyprofessor were just complaining but from now on I'll take their comments more seriously.  

[Cleopatra]

Cleopatra, I'm in Canada too! 

 

Well, look at that!  I'm on the West Coast too!  I'm going to pm you!

[Bluegoat]

Thanks for the information, Hornblower.  It's interesting to learn about what challenges students are having to face in university/college life.  It's a weird dichotomy where education can be dumbed down and less is expected of students, but there are also very heavy expectations on them that can be quite unreasonable.  I laughed, however, upon reading that you had to "censor" your first post.   ;)

 

The subjective marking is so frustrating, isn't it?  The university where my dd is attending is a private university and she knew going in that the professors were hard markers.  I know one lady who got B- & C+s there, went to a university in the States for her masters and was easily getting As.  My dd's marks are near the top of the class with her 73s.  The expectations of some of the professors are particularly frustrating.  I feel that you need to figure out what they want and reproduce it.  That's not learning, IMO.  For example, in my dd's paper you can tell that the professor wants her to allude to Bilbo being a Christian hero.  My dd deliberately kept it more on a moral level because she knew Tolkien did not like to bring his theology into his books, and in fact, disliked the fact the C.S. Lewis did, so she tried to respect that and have her paper echo his views.  It's obvious the professor wanted it stated differently, which is not allowing the student to learn and develop their own ideas, but parrot the professor's.  While I believe this sort of expectation is rampant in most universities, I was a little surprise to see it with this professor.  I've taken a few courses at this university and with regard to the Christian aspect, the professors tend to play devil's advocate and plummet you with opposite ideas to your own to help you understand what you believe.  It was rather refreshing ...

 

An interesting story for you:  we live in Canada where my friend is doing her Ph.D. in sociology.  She says the Canadian professors that she has are still quite balanced and their requirements, while stringent, are reasonable.  However, she says when they get visiting professors from Oxford, or Harvard, or Yale, they work you to the bone as if the copious amounts of work (where she feels she learns less) is going to somehow transform you into an amazing academic.  She's a wife and mother and, needless to say, has no time for her family and is highly stressed.  I don't envy students of today.  

 

Thanks for your wishes for my dd.  She's not really upset about it, just irritated because she doesn't feel like she's been treated fairly.  Welcome to life, right?   ;)

 

ETA:  Oh, and she can't drop it as it's almost done.

 

That's an interesting observation about American profs.  I'm in Canada, and I know my friends who did graduate or post-graduate work in the US always felt that there was a lot of box-checking required - they had much more coursework for example than Canadian students at a similar level did, so of course less time to do their own work.

 

The grade inflation thing is a real problem when it comes to reqirements for scholarships.  And in other ways to.  We had a prof in the department I studied in who was coming from England, and the kinds of letters of reccomendation written by the English were not what Canadians and Americans were expecting - they tended toward the realistic rather than the glowing.

 

I have to disagree about Tolkien and Christianity though.  Tolkien didn't like the way Lewis incorporated religion into his books (which was really rather narrow-minded of him IMO.)  But his stories were very much based on his Christian worldview.  He liked that to be intrinsic rather than obvious within the story, but by it's nature literary analysis is looking to pull those things apart.  If Bilbo really is a Christian hero, you aren't going to be able to understand his heroism without talking about that.  (And I think it could go a long way to explaining why he doesn't look much like Achilles or Batman.)

[Tsuga]

I'm curious, is this common?  I have avoided liberal arts courses when possible (for the reasons discussed here...too much subjective grading).  But I wasn't aware that college students were required to have their old high school teachers edit their papers (for free?) before then submitting them to their professor.

 

BA in Philosophy/Classics, MPA, never heard of such a thing. Peer editing, yes, of course.

[Cleopatra]

More box-ticking ...... that's interesting.  My friend seems to think she learns more from the Canadian profs, but I'm sure the trend of the UK & US profs will come here eventually.  When I look at U.S. structures for essays, I've noticed that they do seem more rigid, and therefore there is less room for creativity and developing your own style.  It's too bad .....

 

 

I have to disagree about Tolkien and Christianity though.  Tolkien didn't like the way Lewis incorporated religion into his books (which was really rather narrow-minded of him IMO.)  But his stories were very much based on his Christian worldview.  He liked that to be intrinsic rather than obvious within the story, but by it's nature literary analysis is looking to pull those things apart.  If Bilbo really is a Christian hero, you aren't going to be able to understand his heroism without talking about that.  (And I think it could go a long way to explaining why he doesn't look much like Achilles or Batman.)

 

I don't disagree with your view, but I felt the professor nitpicked.  My dd was attempting to show that instead of the classic hero (with fame and glory and bravery but lacking in humility or ethical traits) or the present-day anti-hero (who is dark, conflicted yet lacks ethics and is often ruled by emotion), Tolkien presented in Bilbo a new type of hero.   The intent with my dd's essay was not to present that Bilbo was a Christian hero, but instead that Tolkien brought heroism out of the realms of the gods, or superheroes and into the realms of man.  However, the Christian worldview component is still shown in her essay, the reader is simply not beaten over the head with it.  In the same way, Tolkien's Christian worldview was echoed in his writing but wasn't absolutely obvious.The professor appears to have wanted my dd to use words such as "fallen"; when my dd separated "courage" and "moral decision" when describing Bilbo, she wanted her to use "moral courage" (my dd separated them because she wanted to emphasize the different heroes --- ie. Achilles has courage but he is not moral,--- and also wanted to separate courage from decision as they do not always go together - an important point); and she wanted my dd to put that Bilbo's courage was "true heroism".  I just thought it was going a little far by putting her (the profs) opinions over my dds and being super picky.  

 

Even so, in other areas of the essay, the professor does have comments that are quite valid.  Because of the overlapping components of the essay --- each of the three heroes can share certain traits --- my dd could perhaps have used better wording or been clearer in her explanations in a couple of parts.    

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Cleopatra]

BA in Philosophy/Classics, MPA, never heard of such a thing. Peer editing, yes, of course.

 

I'd never heard of it either.  But honestly it was very, very beneficial.  The peer editing was a complete waste of time.  

IMHO, if you are complaining that the professor is marking off for specific grammatical errors, you can't also complain that the professor didn't read the paper.

Edited April 12, 2016 by GGardner

[Harriet Vane]

Wow, thank you all so much for your feedback with regard to the comma splice example!  I couldn't find much wrong with the sentence but I certainly couldn't have broken it down as well as Cosmos.  And thanks for the kind comment, Cosmos.  My dd needed something to buoy her spirits.  

 

This other example of a comma splice is little more questionable:  Literature and film are imbued with classic hero personas, originating with Achilles in The Iliad to the time of modern heroes such as Percy Jackson, from Percy Jackson and the Olympians, however, although they are centuries apart, they both share the same heroic qualities.  She has the comma splice between "Olympians" and "however".  

 

On another note with regard to citations, in one paragraph where my dd is describing hobbits, the professor has noted on my dd's paper that she needs to give "page numbers and citations from the primary text".  My dd is not using quotes from the text, but summarizing the qualities of Bilbo that do not make him an obvious hero at the start of the novel.  My dd understands why they would be needed if she was using a quote, but since it's her own summary, she's confused by this request.  Has anyone come across this expectation before?

 

I teach literature and writing courses, and I have a degree in English and Rhetoric.

 

My students are required to cite page numbers for every reference to the text/plot, whether it is a quote or a summary. I require this because it is commonly expected at the university level. 

[Cleopatra]

IMHO, if you are complaining that the professors is marking off for specific grammatical errors, you can't also complain that the professor didn't read the paper.

 

Why not?  Most people have advised not to bring up the grammatical errors simply because in their experience it doesn't do much good and the mark stays the same.  My dd is planning to ask about the grammatical errors in order to learn from them, and if the professor decides to give her an extra mark or two, she'll take it.  However, the issue of the professor not reading the paper is different, especially when she doesn't seem to have picked up the main thesis of the paper.  I think I'm right when I say that a problem with a main argument of a research paper can lose a student a large number of marks.  And also, with a misunderstanding, the student is now confused, which makes that particular learning experience much, much less profitable.  So I do see a distinction between the two; but she is going to ask about both.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Grantmom]

I would definitely not go in with the accusation or question of whether or not the professor actually read the paper.  What I would do, instead, is go in and explain what I was trying to say and try to get insight into why that didn't come across to the professor.  Maybe the professor did read the paper, but maybe she read it quickly.  Or maybe the paper really didn't clearly illustrate the point that your DD thought it did.  I'm just saying, I'd go in with a mind towards wanting to glean insight and improve, and ask how can I do it better next time.

 

This is why I hate grades for English though.  I really do.  

Edited April 12, 2016 by Grantmom

[Reefgazer]

First bolded comment:  OK, she should talk to the prof, and when she does, make sure she saks for feedback and points out specifically in the paper where she thought she addressed those concerns.  It's possible after reading many papers the prof missed something, so I would extend her some grace if that is the case.

 

Second bolded statement:  Formal academic work shouldn't have comma splices, IMO, but I can also see where this is a stylistic thing.  At any rate, short notations on papers are just that  - shorthand notations that I wouldn't hold to the same standard of formality as a paper, so I don't think the prof's comma splices in notations are really relevant.

 

Third bolded statement:  This, too, needs to be specifically pointed out to the professor, and in addition, have DD ask for feedback on how she missed the mark there.

 

Fourth bolded statement:  Keep in mind that paying for a course guarantees your DD a seat in the class, but does not guarantee her a particular grade or professorial style.  Trotting this one out will do nothing for your DD's standing in the class; she'll just be seen as entitled.

My daughter is taking an English 103 course at a private university near us.  Part of the course requires a huge research paper which is worth 35% of the mark.  She was supposed to get 4 people to edit it and among them was two high school teachers, one who is very well-respected, very particular, and teaches AP English.  Last week, she received her paper back from the professor and there are a couple of issues with it.  Since it's her first university experience I thought I'd see if anyone has some advice to offer.

 

First big issue:  from the comments on her paper, it doesn't appear that the professor has read it.  Her topic was how Tolkien made a different hero with Bilbo Baggins.  She first explained the classic hero (ie. Achilles), then the anti-hero (such as present day Batman, etc.), then went on to describe how Bilbo was fully neither of these and that Tolkien crafted a completely different type of hero.  The professor's commented on her paragraph about the anti-hero, saying that she shouldn't call Bilbo an anti-hero because he doesn't have any of the qualities of one, then she went on to mention some of his qualities.  I was completely astounded because that was what my dd had put in her essay.  There is a comment later too that leads one to suspect that she hasn't read it.  So what should my dd do about this?  Do professors regularly not read students' papers carefully?  She's going to talk to her professor tomorrow, and we'll see but the professor is very tough and likes to announce that she received terrible grades in English because her teachers were hard on her and look where she is now.  Overall this has been a very weird experience.

 

Small issue:  she was graded down because of "comma splices" but the professor's comma splice notations are not consistent.  The English teacher said that he thought that was ridiculous in that comma splices are not technical errors but have to do with stylistic preference.  When I look on the internet, it tends to agree with him.

 

Another small issue:  She was told to have 3-5 citations in the paper instructions, and used 4 but when she received her paper back the note was that she was 1 citation short.  I wonder if the professor had 5 in her mind and didn't remember the instructions.

 

In any case, my dd was marked down for all of these things.  The main issue that is bothering me is that I've paid a lot of money for this course, she doesn't appear to have read the paper.  It's also possible that the grade will affect my dd's scholarship opportunities but that isn't clear yet.  Has anyone else had a similar circumstance and any advice as to what to do?  Any help would be greatly appreciated! 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by reefgazer

[Cleopatra]

I would definitely not go in with the accusation or question of whether or not the professor actually read the paper.  What I would do, instead, is go in and explain what I was trying to say and try to get insight into why that didn't come across to the professor.  Maybe the professor did read the paper, but maybe she read it quickly.  Or maybe the paper really didn't clearly illustrate the point that your DD thought it did.  I'm just saying, I'd go in with a mind towards wanting to glean insight and improve, and ask how can I do it better next time.

 

This is why I hate grades for English though.  I really do.  

 

 

That's what she's going to do.  I don't think it's going to do much good though.  I really didn't know English grades/departments were such a problem!

 

 

ETA:  I also wonder if the grading is low because of the scholarships.  Students can win scholarships each year for their grades, so wouldn't it make sense for the university to grade students lower to save money?  Just sayin' ............

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Bootsie]

IMHO, if you are complaining that the professor is marking off for specific grammatical errors, you can't also complain that the professor didn't read the paper.

 

 

Why not?  Most people have advised not to bring up the grammatical errors simply because in their experience it doesn't do much good and the mark stays the same.  My dd is planning to ask about the grammatical errors in order to learn from them, and if the professor decides to give her an extra mark or two, she'll take it.  However, the issue of the professor not reading the paper is different, especially when she doesn't seem to have picked up the main thesis of the paper.  I think I'm right when I say that a problem with a main argument of a research paper can lose a student a large number of marks.  And also, with a misunderstanding, the student is now confused, which makes that particular learning experience much, much less profitable.  So I do see a distinction between the two; but she is going to ask about both.

I think GGarnder means that if the professor took the time and effort to notice comma splices, the professor must have read the paper.  This does not sound as if it is a situation where the professor simply put a grade on a paper without reading it.   

[Cleopatra]

First bolded comment:  OK, she should talk to the prof, and when she does, make sure she saks for feedback and points out specifically in the paper where she thought she addressed those concerns.  It's possible after reading many papers the prof missed something, so I would extend her some grace if that is the case.

 

Second bolded statement:  Formal academic work shouldn't have comma splices, IMO, but I can also see where this is a stylistic thing.  At any rate, short notations on papers are just that  - shorthand notations that I wouldn't hold to the same standard of formality as a paper, so I don't think the prof's comma splices in notations are really relevant.

 

Third bolded statement:  This, too, needs to be specifically pointed out to the professor, and in addition, have DD ask for feedback on how she missed the mark there.

 

 

Thanks for your feedback.  That's what she's doing to do.

 

Fourth bolded statement:  Keep in mind that paying for a course guarantees your DD a seat in the class, but does not guarantee her a particular grade or professorial style.  Trotting this one out will do nothing for your DD's standing in the class; she'll just be seen as entitled.

 

I would certainly hope I didn't come across as expecting either of those things!  But I do expect the professor to read papers and grade them accordingly and do not think that's an unreasonable expectation under any circumstance.  If a paper isn't read properly, it's not a matter of "professional stye" but a professional mistake that needs to be addressed.  Now how you do it is another matter, and my dd will be sure to be respectful when she meets with her.  She actually likes her alot and the professor likes my dd so I'm sure it will go fine.

 

We're simply trying to figure out this "university culture", and it's certainly been a learning experience.  I'm grateful that we're learning now before she begins full-time.

[Cleopatra]

I think GGarnder means that if the professor took the time and effort to notice comma splices, the professor must have read the paper.  This does not sound as if it is a situation where the professor simply put a grade on a paper without reading it.   

 

Ah, okay, thanks.  There are comments and marks all over the paper so yes, absolutely you would think that.

 

I'll give you the example.  The main questionable comment (in large letters at the top of the page) is:  "the term anti-hero is not appropriate for Tolkien [re: Bilbo] who espouses the Christian heroism of meekness, pity, & courage"  My daughter wrote in her essay, "He [bilbo] is definitely not an anti-hero such as ....."  and later "Bilbo Baggins is fundamentally different from these two hero stereotypes [classic hero & anti-hero]."  Her whole essay is full of the pity and meekness and courage that Bilbo shows, even going so far as to use the example of Bilbo pitying Gollum and sparing his life.  

 

One of the teacher/editors thinks that the professor probably read the paper and marked as she went instead of reading the full paper and then marking it, so she assumed my dd was going to be referring to Bilbo as an anti-hero when in fact, she didn't.  Perhaps the professor forgot to go back and remove a couple of these comments.  In any case, I think my dd will try to see the professor later today and she'll find out then.

[Bootsie]

Ah, okay, thanks.  There are comments and marks all over the paper so yes, absolutely you would think that.

 

I'll give you the example.  The main questionable comment (in large letters at the top of the page) is:  "the term anti-hero is not appropriate for Tolkien [re: Bilbo] who espouses the Christian heroism of meekness, pity, & courage"  My daughter wrote in her essay, "He [bilbo] is definitely not an anti-hero such as ....."  and later "Bilbo Baggins is fundamentally different from these two hero stereotypes [classic hero & anti-hero]."  Her whole essay is full of the pity and meekness and courage that Bilbo shows, even going so far as to use the example of Bilbo pitying Gollum and sparing his life.  

 

One of the teacher/editors thinks that the professor probably read the paper and marked as she went instead of reading the full paper and then marking it, so she assumed my dd was going to be referring to Bilbo as an anti-hero when in fact, she didn't.  Perhaps the professor forgot to go back and remove a couple of these comments.  In any case, I think my dd will try to see the professor later today and she'll find out then.

It is hard to tell out of context how to take the professor's comment.  Is the professor suggesting that sentence as a concise, appropriate thesis statement that summarizes what your daughter is saying in her paper? 

 

Also, it is not unusual for a professor to read and mark the paper during an initially reading.  Although I am not teaching English, I seldom read an entire paper and then go back and mark it.  Sometimes I do find that a student tells me something later in the paper.  At times I go back and place a comment next to the original comment that I found the information.  Sometimes I forget or do not take the time to do that.  Sometimes a check mark or a big "yes" next to the material suffices.  Other times, I won't to point out to the student that a reader is confused and thinking one thing until the reader provides the information later in the paper.

[MomatHWTK]

I think there is grave danger in relying on the opinions of even well-respected instructors who do not actually have the authority to issue a grade when deciding whether a paper is acceptable. I am certain there is grave danger in telling the professor who is authorized to issue a grade that others found the work acceptable. If you are so frustrated with the situation that you begin to see it as a conspiracy theory to save money on scholarships, then it is probably time to take a step back.