Best schools in Finland - interesting article

[Liz CA]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/this-is-why-finland-has-the-best-schools-20160324-gnqv9l.html?utm_source=email+marketing+Mailigen&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter&utm_medium=email

 

Consider this:

 

"Our mission as adults is to protect our children from politicians," one Finnish childhood education professor told me. "We also have an ethical and moral responsibility to tell business people to stay out of our building." In fact, any Finnish citizen is free to visit any school whenever they like, but her message was clear: Educators are the ultimate authorities on education, not bureaucrats, and not technology vendors."

 

[Anne in CA]

I'm not sure how this is different from home schooling...

[trulycrabby]

Thanks! Very interesting article! :)

Edited April 1, 2016 by trulycrabby

[Guest]

I'm not sure how this is different from home schooling...

 

It isn't, but I'm guessing a good amount of homeschoolers wouldn't be doing so if we had schools like these. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by WendyAndMilo

[Tsuga]

I'm not sure how this is different from home schooling...

 

Believe it or not, there are many public schools that employ these techniques. I was recently at a conference in which the head of a major school district basically said he had no interest in buying products, that he was there to advocate for kids.

 

 

 

It isn't, but I'm guessing a good amount of homeschoolers wouldn't be doing so if we had schools like these. 

 

I keep saying that. But the response is, "Well we can't all afford that." And honestly, it doesn't produce the same test scores because we don't have the same social services as Finland, either. We don't invest in kids all around and they know it.

 

But yes, you actually can have good schools...

[TX Native]

Excellent!

[Upward Journey]

If I lived in Finland I would have sent my kids to school. 

 

Me, too.

[ReadingMama1214]

If I lived in Finland I would have sent my kids to school.

I often dream of moving to Finland

[TechWife]

I wouldn't have needed to homeschool if we lived in Finland.

[ktgrok]

I might still homeschool, because I'd miss my kids being gone all day. Although I imagine the school day might be shorter there. 

 

And yes, I think test scores are helped a lot by the fact that the students have a strong social safety net assuring they aren't going hungry or living out of someone's car. My sister is a vice principal of a high school and has quite a few homeless students, ones without adequate food, ones without adequate clothing, jackets, deodorant, etc. Hard to learn, even from the best teachers, when you didn't sleep last night and don't get enough to eat. 

 

As much as I would like to change the schools here (and I do!) I think a bigger focus needs to be on poverty. It's heart breaking. Of course, the kids in poverty need schools like this even more, because they are more sensitive to stress. I guess we just need both. 

[DawnM]

I might still homeschool, because I'd miss my kids being gone all day. Although I imagine the school day might be shorter there. 

 

And yes, I think test scores are helped a lot by the fact that the students have a strong social safety net assuring they aren't going hungry or living out of someone's car. My sister is a vice principal of a high school and has quite a few homeless students, ones without adequate food, ones without adequate clothing, jackets, deodorant, etc. Hard to learn, even from the best teachers, when you didn't sleep last night and don't get enough to eat. 

 

As much as I would like to change the schools here (and I do!) I think a bigger focus needs to be on poverty. It's heart breaking. Of course, the kids in poverty need schools like this even more, because they are more sensitive to stress. I guess we just need both. 

 

 

There are many, many social factors at play in the US that make it impossible to replicate Finland.  Your sister's school sounds similar to the schools I worked in in the inner city for almost 17 years.  And most were immigrants who couldn't find decent jobs to care for their families.  Four families living in a 2 bedroom apartment, heavy gang involvement, all kinds of things keeping kids from focusing on education.  I could tell stories all day long and many of them people wouldn't believe.  But I can't make this stuff up.

 

Poverty rates in Finland are among the lowest in the world.

 

And to immigrate to Finland, you must provide proof of income to support your family:http://www.migri.fi/moving_to_finland_to_be_with_a_family_member/income_requirement

 

Finland has fewer people than the state of North Carolina.

 

So many differences in Finland overall.

Edited April 2, 2016 by DawnM

[ktgrok]

There are many, many social factors at play in the US that make it impossible to replicate Finland.  Your sister's school sounds similar to the schools I worked in in the inner city for almost 17 years. 

 

 

What's sad is she is in the best school in the district, or one of them. 98% graduation rate! (thanks in large part to her effort to reach out to these kids, and bend the rules if need be to make sure they stay and get an education.) NOT an inner city area at all. I'm sure that would change the percentages, but even in the "good" school districts, this stuff happens. 

 

We donated walmart gift cards last year for Christmas to kids at her school. It has to be gift cards to somewhere the kid can walk to, because the parents will take any cash gifts from the kid and buy drugs/booze. So Mcdonalds, Walmart, etc are the best way to go, and we do low denominations so they can be kept in the locker at school and used one by one, in case the parent takes it. 

[MEmama]

For a more balanced view on Finland and the rest of Scandinavia, I might suggest reading http://www.amazon.com/Almost-Nearly-Perfect-People-Scandinavian/dp/1250081564/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1459603657&sr=1-1&keywords=The+almost+nearly+perfect+people.

 

Eta the link is for a book called The Almost Nearly Perfect People: Behind the Myth of the Scandinavian Utopia by Michael Booth.

Edited April 2, 2016 by MEmama

[DawnM]

What's sad is she is in the best school in the district, or one of them. 98% graduation rate! (thanks in large part to her effort to reach out to these kids, and bend the rules if need be to make sure they stay and get an education.) NOT an inner city area at all. I'm sure that would change the percentages, but even in the "good" school districts, this stuff happens. 

 

We donated walmart gift cards last year for Christmas to kids at her school. It has to be gift cards to somewhere the kid can walk to, because the parents will take any cash gifts from the kid and buy drugs/booze. So Mcdonalds, Walmart, etc are the best way to go, and we do low denominations so they can be kept in the locker at school and used one by one, in case the parent takes it. 

 

Ah, yes, I haven 't ever worked in schools that weren't inner city.  It was just a given that 90% of the kids were in abject poverty.  We had a 48% graduation rate at the high school where I worked.  

[poppy]

The Finnish system is unquestionably better, but we can't replicate it because US cititzens do not prioritize making sure all our kids have food, shelter and healthcare .... too bad.

[poppy]

 

 

She talked about how when they were visiting one of the Scandinavian countries, they were stuck at a railroad crossing with the safety arms down.  Naturally, all the cars stopped.  However, so did all the pedestrians, even though there was no sight or sound of a train coming.  She said she and her husband were befuddled as to why the Scandinavian pedestrians didn't just go around the safety arms and cross the tracks as long as there was no train in sight or sound.  It's because it's the RULE.  The people are very rule-oriented, much more so than us rebellious Yanks.

 

My husband tried to pass someone on the right on an autobahn in Germany, and I think every single car in the vicinity honked at us in outrage. 

[TechWife]

I read someone's comment...

 

 It's because it's the RULE.  The people are very rule-oriented, much more so than us rebellious Yanks.

 

 

 

I observed things like this when visiting in Switzerland. It was explained to me that it's because the laws are developed with the best interests of the citizens in mind. Even though a citizen might not understand or care about a particular law, they follow it because they know that it was put in place for a reason and it is important to someone in their society. There were some nuances to the conversation that I can't put into words, but there was an element of respect for others that informs their culture and behavior. That respect for others isn't as obviously apparent in the US. 

[Liz CA]

I read someone's comment...

 

She talked about how when they were visiting one of the Scandinavian countries, they were stuck at a railroad crossing with the safety arms down.  Naturally, all the cars stopped.  However, so did all the pedestrians, even though there was no sight or sound of a train coming.  She said she and her husband were befuddled as to why the Scandinavian pedestrians didn't just go around the safety arms and cross the tracks as long as there was no train in sight or sound.  It's because it's the RULE.  The people are very rule-oriented, much more so than us rebellious Yanks.

 

And I suppose that is why the Finnish schools work so much better than ours do.  They are much more compliant.  (LOL)

 

I think this is true about most of Northern Europe. Much less individualistic overall but perhaps in recent years this has changed little by little. However, Italy came to mind since I spend many summers there when I lived in Europe. Now there is a people that cannot really be accused of rule mongering.  :)

[Liz CA]

My husband tried to pass someone on the right on an autobahn in Germany, and I think every single car in the vicinity honked at us in outrage. 

 

Oh gosh. That's a no-no! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

My mother still cannot get over the fact that we turn right on a red light (at certain intersections) if there is no other traffic.

 

[Penguin]

I read someone's comment...

 

She talked about how when they were visiting one of the Scandinavian countries, they were stuck at a railroad crossing with the safety arms down. Naturally, all the cars stopped. However, so did all the pedestrians, even though there was no sight or sound of a train coming. She said she and her husband were befuddled as to why the Scandinavian pedestrians didn't just go around the safety arms and cross the tracks as long as there was no train in sight or sound. It's because it's the RULE. The people are very rule-oriented, much more so than us rebellious Yanks.

 

And I suppose that is why the Finnish schools work so much better than ours do. They are much more compliant. (LOL)

Where I live in Scandinavia, fines are VERY high for things like pedestrian crossing on a red. I think that is one reason why so many people stand and wait for the green. Edited April 3, 2016 by Penguin

[DawnM]

Man, it's not a utopia but it isn't full of good little Europeans, doing what their masters tell them either. 

 

Every time Finnish schools come up, people get defensive. 

 

I'd rather think about how the best elements of Finnish education could be adapted for use in other countries.

 

We are currently following down the US path of increased testing, and it appalls me. I'd much rather learn from Finland, even if their culture is somewhat different.

 

 

I don't think it is defensiveness, at least not on my part, but it is realistic to compare and see that the societies are vastly different and that what works there may be great, but it isn't the same and can't be applied across the board.

 

Of course our educational system is broken.  I just haven't seen a very good workable solution put forth to change it yet.  

 

The other day I read yet another rant by a school teacher about how horrible our system is and how it needs to be changed......but no workable solution was given, other than, "so vote for the candidates who will change education!" in his rant.   I also don't see education being mentioned much AT ALL in any campaign this election go around.  The only thing I have heard in a little blurb was that the dem. candidate for the state of NC promises to raise teacher salaries.   And yes, it is MUCH needed.  The salary scale is the same now as it was when I moved to NC 11 years ago.   But there are also much larger issues in education and nothing is being mentioned.

[hornblower]

But you don't even have to look at Finland. Look north.

Canada beats the U.S. on PISA. In fact, Canada is way up in the charts, just behind Finland and the Asian tiger countries.

 

I don't really know why.

 

But we're diverse, spread out and multicultural so kind of go against all the usual points about why the U.S. can't replicate it....

 

 

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[scoutingmom]

But you don't even have to look at Finland. Look north.

Canada beats the U.S. on PISA. In fact, Canada is way up in the charts, just behind Finland and the Asian tiger countries.

 

I don't really know why.

 

But we're diverse, spread out and multicultural so kind of go against all the usual points about why the U.S. can't replicate it....

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lots of Canadians here not too thrilled with the Canadian system.... lots of problems here!

 

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[hornblower]

Lots of Canadians here not too thrilled with the Canadian system.... lots of problems here!

 

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I'm Canadian.

And I homeschool so I'd agree there are issues.

But the PISA results are nevertheless interesting.

 

 

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[TechWife]

Where I live in Scandinavia, fines are VERY high for things like pedestrian crossing on a red. I think that is one reason why so many people stand and wait for the green.

 

 I can read this as the law is in place for the safety of the people and if you don't respect the law or the people, then the consequence is high. If she/he respects others/yourself/the law, then perhaps the person won't cross against the light. 

 

I actually see some of pedestrian behavior where I live as disrespectful. I often see teen boys crossing through an intersection beside the crosswalk instead of inside the crosswalk (not in a crowded area). What is that other than showing a disrespect for the law and for their own safety? 

[Penguin]

 I can read this as the law is in place for the safety of the people and if you don't respect the law or the people, then the consequence is high. If she/he respects others/yourself/the law, then perhaps the person won't cross against the light. 

 

I actually see some of pedestrian behavior where I live as disrespectful. I often see teen boys crossing through an intersection beside the crosswalk instead of inside the crosswalk (not in a crowded area). What is that other than showing a disrespect for the law and for their own safety? 

I understand your point and I don't disagree. It was just odd to my non-Scandinavian eyes to see people waiting for the green to cross...when there is not even a car or bike within sight.

 

I was stunned by the library late fees: three to four dollars per book per day depending on the currency factor.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Penguin

[Bluegoat]

Honestly I find claims that the sucesses of the Finnish system can't be replicated in different settings a little over-blown.  No - they might not look quite the same.  But what are the things that make it work?  Well educated and respected, and reasonably paid career teachers.  Classes really based on appropriate developmental milestones.  Realistic expectations in terms of length of school day. Community based schools.  Giving teachers the freedom to actually teach and the responsibility to make decisions about how to do it without idiotic testing requirements.  Evidence based decisions.

 

Nordic countries do have less poverty, but it isn't unheard of - there are social problems there as well.  That doesn't mean that kids at risk are not going to benefit from similar kinds of approaches.

[TranquilMind]

 

http://www.smh.com.au/national/this-is-why-finland-has-the-best-schools-20160324-gnqv9l.html?utm_source=email+marketing+Mailigen&utm_campaign=daily-newsletter&utm_medium=email

 

Consider this:

 

"Our mission as adults is to protect our children from politicians," one Finnish childhood education professor told me. "We also have an ethical and moral responsibility to tell business people to stay out of our building." In fact, any Finnish citizen is free to visit any school whenever they like, but her message was clear: Educators are the ultimate authorities on education, not bureaucrats, and not technology vendors."

 

 

Oh, AMEN to the bolded! 

[SKL]

But you don't even have to look at Finland. Look north.

Canada beats the U.S. on PISA. In fact, Canada is way up in the charts, just behind Finland and the Asian tiger countries.

 

I don't really know why.

 

But we're diverse, spread out and multicultural so kind of go against all the usual points about why the U.S. can't replicate it....

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

There's diversity, and then there's diversity.

[SKL]

There are great schools with great results right here in the USA.  It seems more logical to look there first for ideas to improve.

[SKL]

Funny thing, the US system used to be the one everyone else wanted to copy (generations ago).

[Bluegoat]

There's diversity, and then there's diversity.

 

That is a rather obscure statement?

[TechWife]

Funny thing, the US system used to be the one everyone else wanted to copy (generations ago).

For education? When?

Edited April 4, 2016 by TechWife

[musicianmom]

*

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by musicianmom

[Bluegoat]

What struck me when I read a book about the Finnish system is how incredibly difficult it is to become a teacher in their school system. It's nearly like trying to get into the Ivy League here. And once you're in, the level of academic work combined with clinical training sounds pretty grueling. Not everyone makes it through. 

 

Compare that to here, where the average SAT/ACT scores of education majors are nearly the lowest of all majors.

 

I really think that the commitment required to even be accepted into teacher training might be even more important than the fact that they all have advanced degrees.  You have to be really keen and motivated, and also show real talent. 

[Penelope]

I think that if your children actually went to school in Finland, there would be things you would like and things you would not like, just like many places in the U.S. It can't be a utopia. I don't think that visiting the school as a journalist, or being a student teacher, or having a very young child in school there for just a few months, is remotely the same thing as living there and having the children attend for K-12.

 

There are individual states in the U.S. that score very high on PISA and TIMSS. Like Massachusetts. Also, when socioeconomic groups are broken down, the upper groups in the U.S. do every bit as well as the top countries elsewhere in the world. Which implies that there are likely individual schools and school districts who are doing as well as Finland academically. Doing something right.

 

The U.S. does have educational problems, as a whole, for sure. And the European system as a whole does some things much better than we do, like languages.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Penelope

[SKL]

What struck me when I read a book about the Finnish system is how incredibly difficult it is to become a teacher in their school system. It's nearly like trying to get into the Ivy League here. And once you're in, the level of academic work combined with clinical training sounds pretty grueling. Not everyone makes it through. 

 

Compare that to here, where the average SAT/ACT scores of education majors are nearly the lowest of all majors.

 

Well, not to be snarky, but if the schools are so great, why would it be hard for many students to qualify for teacher's college?

 

[TechWife]

Well, not to be snarky, but if the schools are so great, why would it be hard for many students to qualify for teacher's college?

 

 

Because it's hard to become a teacher in Finland. People are individuals. There are some people that are smarter than others. In Finland, the smartest get to be teachers. 

 

In Finland:

Not everyone gets to go to college. 

Fewer people are admitted to the teacher college at the University of Helinski (less than 7%) than are admitted to their medical and law colleges. 

Daycare teachers must have a bachelor's degree, preschool teacher's a master's degree. 

To be admitted into  school in education, they must have high  grades, pass entrance exams and pass a personal interview

The minimum education level for a elementary or high school teacher is a Master degree. Either in their field, if they teach high school, or in general education, if they teach in the lower grades. 

 

 

Here are some more articles about how hard it is to become a teacher in Finland: 

Finland's Secret Sauce: It's Teachers

Highly Trained, Respected and Free: Why Finland's Teacher's are Different (among other things, they are expected to solve their own problems and have been trained to do so; they also have a full year of pedagogy in their studies). 

 

There are many more articles available if you want to seek them out. 

[Bluegoat]

Well, not to be snarky, but if the schools are so great, why would it be hard for many students to qualify for teacher's college?

 

 

It doesn't matter how well educated your population is, if you are very selective about the number of people you admit, not many will qualify.

[OnMyOwn]

Honestly I find claims that the sucesses of the Finnish system can't be replicated in different settings a little over-blown. No - they might not look quite the same. But what are the things that make it work? Well educated and respected, and reasonably paid career teachers. Classes really based on appropriate developmental milestones. Realistic expectations in terms of length of school day. Community based schools. Giving teachers the freedom to actually teach and the responsibility to make decisions about how to do it without idiotic testing requirements. Evidence based decisions.

 

Nordic countries do have less poverty, but it isn't unheard of - there are social problems there as well. That doesn't mean that kids at risk are not going to benefit from similar kinds of approaches.

The funny thing is, we had all of that in the US until, what, 15 or 20 years ago. Then, we decided to hold schools accountable for the low performers, who are usually performing poorly because of their home environment vs what is going on in school, and we linked funding to testing and took all freedom away from teachers. And we can't have community schools because it's not fair to low performing students. These changes may have been instituted with good intentions but have led to disaster for most students, imo. The one thing we have probably never had is very highly qualified teachers, but, if anything, that is likely worse now since teaching has become such a miserable job. Edited April 5, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[Bluegoat]

The funny thing is, we had all of that in the US until, what, 15 or 20 years ago. Then, we decided to hold schools accountable for the low performers, who are usually performing poorly because of their home environment vs what is going on in school, and we linked funding to testing and took all freedom away from teachers. And we can't have community schools because it's not fair to low performing students. These changes may have been instituted with good intentions but have led to disaster for most students, imo. The one thing we have probably never had is very highly qualified teachers, but, if anything, that is likely worse now since teaching has become such a miserable job.

 

Yes, I think that this is really the message I would be taking -

 

the direction over the last generation with testing and trying to motivate through funding has been a big, big, mistake, and going further down that road is not the answer.

 

Starting kids earlier (4 year olds in academic programs) doesn't make things better and might well make them worse.

 

Moving kids around to "better" and

​worse"  schools is probably not as important as making sure all schools have comparable levels of funding and resources.  Schools need stable funding.

 

And then of course the final thing is extreme social inequality and lack of security for families will screw up education no matter what else you do.